Cells and motors for F3P?

[Aio_1]

I think a thread on the subject of suitable cells and motors would very useful to many of us.

First order of business:
Does this thread belong in this Indoor Pattern/F3P forum or in Power Systems?

It's worth deciding now what belongs and what doesn't before the forum becomes too busy! Perhaps it would be best to post this thread in Power Systems and just post a link here? There's going to be a lot of overlap with motors and cells used for other indoor flying.

I'll ask the moderator to move this thread if that's the concensus.


Now onto the interesting stuff!
I'm looking to buy some cells and perhaps a motor at the moment and some advice wouldn't go astray. I'm not a good enough pilot to actually attempt an F3P schedule but I'd like a plane that's capable of it so I can at least make a start.
I currently have:
PJS 300SF motor.
3s Kokam 340SHC packs (their 20C rating was VERY optimistic)

Cells
I'd prefer to stick with 3s packs which may limit the options a little.
It looks to me like the TP Prolite 480mAh (34g) cells are the best around at the moment. The Hyperion VX300 cells are only a fraction lighter and rated at 20C continuous / 30C burst. They should be fine too but I'm not confident they'll last very long. On the plus side they're cheap as are the Hyperion VX400 cells (also 20C/30C) which weigh in at 40g.
I've also considered the TP Prolite 730mAh cells but at 49g they are perhaps a little too heavy.
Any comments?

Motors
Flyware Rex 220 motors look good (are the Multiplex BL-X 22 motors the same?) as do the small Torcmans. I've also had a look at the Hyperion Z2205/46 motors and the Typhoon 3/3D and 5/3D. All of these can spin 8" or 9" props at ~50W or more.
Can anyone offer any other options or comment on those listed?

Aidan

[Draganfly]

Aidan, in F3P I am under the impression that all the top pilots fly 2s300 to 2s480 packs. 3s is not required or beneficial when the plane weighs no more than 6.5oz.

On the motor side of things, I think the Littlescreamer and CustomCDR motors are as good as anything on the market, and better than most.

-Adam

[Armin Mangelmann]

We mainly fly the flyware microrex motor which is 11 g of weight, the prop is 6x3 gws and we use 480 mamopolys...
This setup give very nice performance for our f3p model, which weighs about 140 grams...

kr
armin

www.mamo-models.com

[Erik Johansson]

We mainly fly the flyware microrex motor which is 11 g of weight, the prop is 6x3 gws and we use 480 mamopolys...
This setup give very nice performance for our f3p model, which weighs about 140 grams...

kr
armin

www.mamo-models.com

Any pictures of your F3P model? :)

/Erik

[Aio_1]

Aidan, in F3P I am under the impression that all the top pilots fly 2s300 to 2s480 packs. 3s is not required or beneficial when the plane weighs no more than 6.5oz....
The reason I'd like to stick with 3s is that I'd want to use the same cells in an F3P style plane and some IPS powered planes plus some other miscellaneous stuff. The IPS systems are only worth using on 3s, at 2s the motor efficiency is very poor.

I did think that 2s systems were probably more common for F3P. I may have to compromise a little.

We mainly fly the flyware microrex motor which is 11 g of weight, the prop is 6x3 gws and we use 480 mamopolys...
This setup give very nice performance for our f3p model, which weighs about 140 grams...www.mamo-models.com

I looked at that motor but thought it might be a little undersize. I'll have another look. The Flyware motors do look good. Another one I've looked at is the Micro Cyclon although it's 27g range like the others I've been looking at. From your post they all seem a little big! Problem is the smaller motors generally have too high a Kv for 3 cells to spin a suitable prop.

Aidan

[Pierrot BZH]

Motors
Flyware Rex 220 motors look good (are the Multiplex BL-X 22 motors the same?)
They are the same Aidan. It has a very good reputation here in France and can be used either with 2S or 3S.

If you want to have an idea of the equipments of F3P planes in France/Germany, see the following files : there're the results of last Carvin meeting, very famous in Europe :
http://membres.lycos.fr/carvin/caracteristiques1.pdf
http://membres.lycos.fr/carvin/caracteristiques2.pdf

Lot of them use the Aïto from Donuts Models :
http://www.donuts-models.com/
Don't hesitate to get in touch with the boss, he very keen. His name is Jerome.

[Aio_1]

Pierrot,

Thanks for the information and links. Very useful.
I like the Aïto a lot. I think I may build a similar plane of my own design but I haven't decided for certain yet.

What thickness depron do the box fuselage models usually use? I planned to use 2mm for the fuselage and 3mm for the wings with carbon spars.

Aidan

[Trisquire]

....Lot of them use the Aïto from Donuts Models......
A lot of the Carvin Aïtos are 186 grams or 6.6 oz. That's close to Jeff Pfeifer's Equalizer at 6.8 oz. The Carvin fliers use a lot of AXi 2204/54s as well.

Please see post #30 in the following link:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462102&page=2&pp=15

Regards,
Tom

[Erik Johansson]

A lot of the Carvin Aïtos are 186 grams or 6.6 oz. That's close to Jeff Pfeifer's Equalizer at 6.8 oz. Please see post #30. The Carvin fliers use a lot of AXi 2204/54s as well.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462102&page=2&pp=15

Regards,
Tom

The Aïto is however 35" vs 32" for the Equalizer and also has a bigger fuselage. So that´s still a pretty big difference I think. Although not huge by any means.

/Erik

[Trisquire]

The Aïto is however 35" vs 32" for the Equalizer and also has a bigger fuselage. So that´s still a pretty big difference I think. Although not huge by any means.

/Erik
Thank you Erik. To whom it may concern, I found an interesting thread on RC Universe which discusses the Aïto at some length.

Regards,
Tom

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3599718/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

[3d_Crazy]

Does the Aito use a foam canopy? Using a foam canopy on the EQ instead of the plastic one will drop its weight by another .3oz or so (8+ grams).

Tim

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Aito has a foam non-removable canopy.

[Pierrot BZH]

Most of the time, F3P models are all made from 3mm depron because in France, you can only find 3 or 6mm thick. We also use Gediplac which is another trade mark of depron like, but lighter.

Some free plans, either 3D or real F3P :
http://www.amjd.ch/vertigo.php
http://www.amjd.ch/challenger.php
http://www.amjd.ch/ultimate.html
These three models have a plastic canopy (see http://www.amjd.ch/verriere.html for details but very classic)
http://www.amjd.ch/troll.html
http://www.wherzog.de/eflug/download/SILJAK(2).pdf
http://user.faktiskt.se/Erik_J/Pulse_II.zip
http://home.netsurf.de/jacob.rosendorfer/silwas/silwas.pdf
http://maison.hd.free.fr/sle/hoaxi_sle_pdf.rar

Pierre

[Armin Mangelmann]

@Erik...

yes, in two weeks.... :D

[Trisquire]

@Erik...

yes, in two weeks.... :D
Looking forward to those pictures.

Tom

[Erik Johansson]

@Erik...

yes, in two weeks.... :D

Brilliant. ;)

/Erik

[Aio_1]

Well I ordered my motor and cells:

TP Prolite 430mAh 3S (~34g)
Flyware MicroRex 220/6-1600 (~21g)

Based on the data I can find it seems this should draw about 5A on a GWS 7x3.5 or about 7.5A on a GWS 8x4.3 or perhaps a little less depending on the voltage drop of the cells.
Those figures seem about right to me. Probably a little more than I need for F3P style flying but I did want a little in reserve for other models which the 12g MicroREX 220/3 wouldn't have provided and it couldn't have used the 3s packs either.

the remainder of the gear will be:
CC Phoenix 10 ESC (~6g)
ACT Pico 4 receiver (~4.5g)
Jamara Atom mini blue servos (~4g)

So that's about 80g plus airframe and fittings.

Aidan

[Aio_1]

I've noticed looking at the links in post #6 that most of the competitiors use 5g and 6g servos. Is there a specific reason for this?
I'm guessing that perhaps the centering and smoothness of these is superior to the 4g servos and worth the few grams of extra weight in the plane?

Aidan

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Exactly!

[Aio_1]

Any particular servos stand out as good (or bad) choices?
I like the Ripmax SD100 servos which I believe are the same as the Dymond 4.7g units. However they're not as easy to find as some of the others and cost a little more. I have a couple of the Jamara Atom 4g servos as previously mentioned but having just tried them they seem a little jittery. I also have a couple of their 6g servos which I haven't tried yet - hopefully they're smoother.

I have a scattering of different types at the moment but I'd like to choose one type so that at least some of my servos match!!!

Aidan

[Erik Johansson]

When it comes to precision and speed, the original HS-50 servos are still the ones to beat. Extremely popular in Germany. I must say they are by far the best I´ve tried as well, just a bit costly.

/Erik

[ChrisBowker]

ive had good luck with futaba 3110's, so far very happy, not as light as 50's tho.

Chris

[Jurgen Heilig]

Here is the latest collection of data from models used to qualify for the German F3P Championship 2006:

[Trisquire]

Jürgen,

I recognize some of the planes by their names. Are they mostly bipes in the F3P-A category?

Regards,
Tom

[Nooflyer]

the eflite park 300's aen't that bad either! i have one and it's pretty good. Almost exactly like the Axi 2204's but a little less efficient.
But hay the price is just a quarter cheaper.

[Nooflyer]

axi is about $70 and the park 300 is $48.

[byoung]

Jurgen,
Where could I buy the Potensky P-30 Motor?

Brad

[Aio_1]

Thanks for the data Jürgen. It's very helpful and much appreciated.

Can anyone sugest a good source for the MZK Penta receivers? I don't trust the GWS Rxs from past experience. I've got an ACT Pico 4 which I like and may get another (or the newer Digital 4 from ACT).
I've also been looking at the Berg/Hyperion receivers but I haven't heard any user feedback so all I have to go on is the advertising which isn't usually solid ground. Anyone tried these?

I've been looking for a source of Ripmax SD100/ Dymond D4.7 servos and there don't seem to be many people selling them any more. I see that the Waypoint W060 servos are popular on Jürgen's list and they are reasonably priced. I might try either them or HS-50s, otherwise I'll use the selection I have already for the moment (combination of Jamara Atom 4g or 6g, SuperTec Pico and Pichler S708).

Last question (for now) - it seems that everyone is using 4 channel receivers. Is there no advantage in flapperon/elevator mixing in f3P?

Aidan

[Jurgen Heilig]

Jürgen,

I recognize some of the planes by their names. Are they mostly bipes in the F3P-A category?

Regards,
Tom

At this competition, the majority of models were bipes.

:) Jürgen

[Devin McGRath]

AIO,

I am not an F3P pilot but in my experience the extra servo did not help much and was not worth the added weight because you have the extra servo and a bigger receiver


Devin McGrath
www.devinrocks.com

[Armin Mangelmann]

Well,

the hs50 is very well working in all of my models....together with the push pull method (there will something new come up within end of next week) it is very easy the get a precise flying model.

i also use the gws receiver, my testing with the pentas was not so promising, so i stayed with gws, they never gave me any trouble, even martin flies with them.

we all fly with 2 cell packs 480...

kr
armin

PS: an extra servo is not need for the routine which is flown at the moment, on aileronservo is enough

[Jurgen Heilig]

At this competition, the majority of models were bipes.

:) Jürgen

One week later in Mülheim, the majority of models used for F3P-A were monoplanes:

[byoung]

I asked this in the Power Section but maybe it's better here.
Does anyone know...Is the Python-30 Brushless motor that Hobby Lobby sells the same as the Potensky P-30 that the Indoor F3P pilots are using in Europe?

HL motor: http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-cemech.htm

Thanks,
Brad

[Jurgen Heilig]

I asked this in the Power Section but maybe it's better here.
Does anyone know...Is the Python-30 Brushless motor that Hobby Lobby sells the same as the Potensky P-30 that the Indoor F3P pilots are using in Europe?

HL motor: http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-cemech.htm

Thanks,
Brad

Hi Brad,

No, the Potensky is a different motor:

http://www.el-fly.dk/ac-pot-30w.asp

:) Jürgen

[byoung]

Jürgen,
I noticed that the site you referenced also has the MicroRex motors, which one of those is being used on the Manta.

Thanks,
Brad

[CharM]

Are there any sub 20 gram outrunners available in the USA or can those 11gram outrunners be sent here?

Thanks! :D

[Larry3215]

These are the litest I know of in the US at 18 grms. Very nice motors.

http://www.m-a-e.com/Sub_Pages/Products/products_Mots.htm#Westport 20t CDR


Larry

[CharM]

Thanks Larry!

:D

[Jurgen Heilig]

Jürgen,
I noticed that the site you referenced also has the MicroRex motors, which one of those is being used on the Manta.

Thanks,
Brad

The MicroRex 220-3 = 11g motor.

:) Jürgen

[byoung]

Jürgen,
Just to be sure...Is this the MicroRex 220-3-3200? I might try ordering from Hollein if I can get three other people interested. ;)

Brad

[CharM]

Hi Brad,

I'd be interested in being one of the three for the motors.

Any idea about price?

:D

[Trisquire]

Jürgen,
Just to be sure...Is this the MicroRex 220-3-3200? I might try ordering from Hollein if I can get three other people interested. ;)

Brad

I think this is it:

http://www.mamo-modelltechnik.com/cgi-bin/shop/front/shop_main.cgi?func=det&wkid=50863645313347315&rub1=Motoren&rub2=Brushless,Flyware&artnr=398&pn=0&sort=0&partnr=FLYMICROREX&all=

59 Euros?

[byoung]

Safford,
This it what it looks like to me...Hollein in Germany has the MicroRex 220-3-3200 in their catalog for 53 Euro with VAT, so it should be 45.69 w/o VAT (or $54.34 today) and I have ordered from them before. Shipping for a 1 kg package is 27.20 Euro ( or $32.35). Looks like we would need four people to make it economical. I guess we would have to also add the shipping cost from me to other USA locations $3.85. Well that's about $66.28 each for four.

Another Question:Is the 2204 on it's way?

Thanks,
Brad

[KNUFFAN]

The price seems just fine for the motors. Whats the shipping time from Germany? I would like 2 now if I may.
One LRK from Homefly is 135.00 plus shipping
Guy

[Trisquire]

The AXi 2204 seems to be a popular choice when used on an Aito bipe.

The Manta monoplane, on the other hand, is a smaller plane; about the size of a first generation shockflyer. Would the MicroRex 220-3-3200 motor be too small for an Aito bipe?

Regards,
Tom

[byoung]

Guy,
Two motors instead of one surely won't increase the weight of the package much.;) It seems like I had orders from Hollein before in about a week. The 27.20 euro price is their airmail shipping price. Hollein is closed on Wed., so I will try to call them about availability of the motors on Thursday.

Brad

[CharM]

Brad,

Count me in one of the motors. Yes, the 2204 is on the way.

:D

[Jurgen Heilig]

The AXi 2204 seems to be a popular choice when used on an Aito bipe.

The Manta monoplane, on the other hand, is a smaller plane; about the size of a first generation shockflyer. Would the MicroRex 220-3-3200 motor be too small for an Aito bipe?

Regards,
Tom

Don't forget that there is is an improved version of the AXI2204-54 on the market now (weighs 26.5 instead of 24.5g).

The MicroRex220-3-3200 works fine for a 110-120g model, but not for a model the size of the Aito.

:) Jürgen

[Devin McGRath]

Jurgen the new 2204 ( really a 2205) Has 15% more power a definite noticeable difference and IMHO is worth the weight gain of one gram especially sense that is almost like free power you don’t need to switch anything else except the motor for that extra power. As long as the old 2204 is not outside of the weight limits of the plane than the new one shouldn't be either It may actually be even better.

Do you think the new 2204 is an improvement or a step backward ? I think they should come out with a new smaller motor as well.


Devin McGrath

[CharM]

Devin,

How can you tell if its a "new" 2204, does it look different?

:D

[Devin McGRath]

Its slightly deeper... you will notice that the black ring is the only thing that was changed as far as how it looks.

[byoung]

Can someone tell me the diameter of the circle that the holes lie on for the mount for the MicroRex 220-3-3200? Are they evenly spaced at 120 degrees apart?

Thanks,
Brad

[Steve25]

Hey guys,
Here a link where you find some specs of the microrex 220/3/3200, measured with different propellers. http://www.lipoly.de/modellbau/motoren/flyware/microrex220/microrex220_3.html.
At ftp://flyware.us/download/Technische%20Daten/microREX220-3/ , also reachable through www.flyware.de , download, you can find the details, the mounting holes are on a 24mm diameter.
Hope this helps.
Personally using a 220/12/2300 on a Gunther prop. The guys at lipoly.de did help a lot. Their site also works in English.

best regards, Steven

[MKH]

Its slightly deeper... you will notice that the black ring is the only thing that was changed as far as how it looks.

Who's got 'em for sale now?
MKH

[Malves]

Anyone tried the Park 300? I've got it, but I don't have it mounted yet. It weighs 24g and can be used with 3s 8x3.8SF or 2s 10x3.8SF. I hooked it up with 2s and 9x5HD and it had lots of power.

[CharM]

Hi Malves,

I have two Park 300's and like them. They look like an AXI 2204 knock-off. The magnetic cogging is less than the AXI but is enough power for a light airplane. The machine collar gives a really nice fit to the GWS 8X4HD and will run very true. It's nice that they come with connectors and mounting hardware. Anymore I try and only buy motors that come with the extras.

:D

[Devin McGRath]

MKH

Hobby-Lobby is selling them now. Any 2204 orderd at this point will be a 2205. I now have three of them and they are great!


Devin McGrath

[Malves]

Thanx, man. I was gonna get the AXI, but I've got a good deal at ebay on the E-Flite for $41 shipped NIB.:)

[MKH]

MKH
Hobby-Lobby is selling them now. Any 2204 orderd at this point will be a 2205. I now have three of them and they are great!
Devin McGrath

Thanks! Is there a magic 2S combo? I hear the 9x5 is a good 2S prop, but don't know the amp draw to help select a battery.
MKH

[Jeff Pfeifer]

9x5 GWS DD and 2S on the 2205/54 works great.

[MKH]

9x5 GWS DD and 2S on the 2205/54 works great.

Can a 2S480 pack handle the amps, or is a 2S730 better? Any idea what the full throttle amp draw is? Thanks Jeff!
MKH

[Jeff Pfeifer]

I run 2s 340mah Kokams, with no problems, and I know Devin runs 9x4.7's on 3s w/o any problems at all. These AXI 2205/54 are bullet proof!

[Aio_1]

Can a 2S480 pack handle the amps, or is a 2S730 better? Any idea what the full throttle amp draw is? Thanks Jeff!
MKH
That'll depend on the cells.
The TP Prolite 480s would be fine. Some other 480s are 10C cells and might be pushed too hard.

Aidan

[byoung]

Can someone tell me...what is the normal current draw of the MicroRex 220-3-3200 with a 7 x 3.5 HD on 2 cell Li-Po? I see that this was a fairly common combination in Germany.

Thanks,
Brad

[Aio_1]

Brad,

I had difficulty finding good info on the Flyware motors until I found their downloadable data files. Go to http://www.wema.de/flyware-deutsch/indexx.php
and pick "Informationen" at the top of the page. This brings you to an FTP download location where you can get drawings and technical data including test results for most or all of their motors. Unfortunately I can only see 6x3 prop data for the MicroREX 220/3. There is partial load data for the 7x3.5 but not a full test list. Might be best to have a look yourself in case I missed it.

I collected my MicroREX 220/6-1600 yesterday evening. It's a very nicely made little motor. I look forward to testing it out as soon as my ESC arrives. I haven't a spare one to use while I'm waiting. I didn't go for the smaller 220/3 motor since I'm not sure how often I'll have access to indoor facilities so I wanted something more adaptable for small outdoor planes too.

Aidan

[jludwick]

I just received a 2204/54 last week from Hobby Lobby. I'll measure it and see if it's a 2205/54. Should have a 5mm wide stator, right?

I guess I can weigh it with a gram scale... their website says 25.9 grams - different from what was mentioned earlier...

MKH

Hobby-Lobby is selling them now. Any 2204 orderd at this point will be a 2205. I now have three of them and they are great!


Devin McGrath

[Aio_1]

Just a quick update:

www.Flyware.de (http://www.flyware.de/)

Flyware have moved their site and improved it considerably (or I was looking in the wrong place before!).

If you select "Downloads" item from the top menu you can view a PDF brochure/datasheet for each motor in their range including the MicroREX motors which are of interest to us. These datasheets include drawings and a very complete set of performance data.
There's more info for those who can read German but I haven't translated it yet to see what's there. The drawings and charts are the most important.


2s packs

A lot of my earlier comments in this thread revolved around my intention to use 3s packs. Well I did get two of the 3s TP480 packs (~37g) and they've seen some use - no regrets. However I spotted that www.b-p-p.com (http://www.b-p-p.com/) were doing a free shipping promotion (not restricted to the US) and a 5% discount so I picked up a couple of Hyperion 2s VX 300 packs (20g). These appear identical to the Polyquest "Twenty" packs. At $14.20, no shipping costs and with good $/€ exchange rates this is an almost trivial expense! They are rated 20C continuous (6A) and 30C burst (9A). I generally don't take these ratings too seriously as they tend to be rather optimistic but I only need about 5A burst which shouldn't be any problem.

According to Flyware's data I should get about 35W and 220g static thrust on a GWS 8x4.3 using 2s. That should do nicely for an F3P plane in the region of 150g. I can still switch to the 3s packs and drop to a 7x3.5 for about 50W and 300g static thrust for more lively flying when a hall is not available.
At 21g the motor is about 10g heavier than what some are using in competition but I think this is an ideal solution for me.

Aidan

[rcflyerrc]

Any particular servos stand out as good (or bad) choices?
I like the Ripmax SD100 servos which I believe are the same as the Dymond 4.7g units. However they're not as easy to find as some of the others and cost a little more. I have a couple of the Jamara Atom 4g servos as previously mentioned but having just tried them they seem a little jittery. I also have a couple of their 6g servos which I haven't tried yet - hopefully they're smoother.

I have a scattering of different types at the moment but I'd like to choose one type so that at least some of my servos match!!!

Aidan


I have seen some posts somewhere on the Cirrus CS 101 servos, some good some bad, probably just like in any area. My experience with the 101s is that they are great. They have coreless motors, and weigh an honest (if my scale is correct) 4g. I was using the old Cirrus 4.4s, but next to the 101's, the 4.4 sounds like a freight train. With all the bad stuff on the Dymond store, I like these servos a lot, although I have a friend that swears by the Dymonds.

RCS