German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2006

[Jurgen Heilig]

Just a heads-up for the competitors in other countries:

The German Indoor Aerobatics Championship will take place on 01.- 02. April 2006 in Eschweiler (near Aachen). Competitors need to qualify either in Poing (near Munich) on 18.- 19.02.2006, or in Mühlheim (near Essen) on 25.- 26.02.2006.

F3P-A (Turn around programme)

1) Take-Off
2) Inverted Cuban Eight
3) 1/4 roll - knife edge 180° circle - 1/4 roll
4) Looping with 1/2 roll at the top
5) Inverted Stall turn - 1/2 roll after exit
6) Triangular looping with 1/2 roll at the top
7) Inverted 180° circle
8) Rolling circle with one(!) roll
9) High Hat with 1/4 rolls - exit normal
10) Half 4 point roll
11) Humpty Bump
12) Torque roll
13) Landing

F3P-B:

1) Take-Off
2) Horizontal Eight
3) Looping
4) Four Point Roll
5) Double Immelmann with 1/2 rolls
6) Inverted Stall Turn with 1/2 rolls
7) High Hat with 1/4 rolls
8) Rolling circle with one(!) roll
9) Landing

F3P-AM (AeroMusicals) - some minor changes, but very similar to 2004 and 2005.

As of today, we have a total of 47 entries from 4 European countries (3 pilots from Belgium, 4 from the Netherlands and 8 from the Czech Republik).

Registration ends on 11th of February.

:) Jürgen

[Pjotrrr]

It will probably take some time before the Americans can fly these programs .....(I can't...)

Stir it up ;)

[Devin McGRath]

Looks like I have some things to practice :) it will take a wile but I’m sure us Americans will get there eventually.



Devin McGrath

[dcronkhite]

Nothing in those sequences is terribly hard to fly.. but like anything else is very difficult to fly to the level of this competition. The biggest mistake people make early on in flying F3P in my opinion is not flying slow enough.

[Jurgen Heilig]

Nothing in those sequences is terribly hard to fly.. but like anything else is very difficult to fly to the level of this competition. The biggest mistake people make early on in flying F3P in my opinion is not flying slow enough.

Have you ever tried to fly the F3P-A program in hall with a ceiling of approx. 25ft in an area of approx. 40mx20m? Just flying slow doesn't do the trick. ;)

:) Jürgen

[Jerry Combs]

Have you ever tried to fly the F3P-A program in hall with a ceiling of approx. 25ft in an area of approx. 40mx20m? Just flying slow doesn't do the trick. ;)

:) Jürgen


My local site is even smaller than that Jurgen, 18' high and 85' by 50'. And no, I can't even begin to fly the F3A sequence there. Maybe some day I will be able to do so but not yet.

Jerry

[coloradoz]

Is this what it looks like?

http://194.109.150.81/web/upload/vdVechten/F3Ai-Aeng.wmv

[Jurgen Heilig]

The German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2006 starts in two weeks from now:

[jludwick]

Jurgen,

I watched your video of Martin from the Mühlheim competition, and I just have to say I'm captivated! F3P is an amazing event. Can't wait to see your videos from the Championship! Keep up the good work; you are starting a fire in the US!

I'm coming to Germany this summer (wife is German). We'll be in the Frankfurt area. Can you recommend a good hobby shop in the area? I'd like to pick up some airframes.

--Jon

[3dflyindan]

no just in america i live in england and all i can say is im starrting to get hooked :D

just need to be able to do a routine and make it look like a routine :d

dan

[Jurgen Heilig]

Jurgen,

I watched your video of Martin from the Mühlheim competition, and I just have to say I'm captivated! F3P is an amazing event. Can't wait to see your videos from the Championship! Keep up the good work; you are starting a fire in the US!

I'm coming to Germany this summer (wife is German). We'll be in the Frankfurt area. Can you recommend a good hobby shop in the area? I'd like to pick up some airframes.

--Jon

Hi Jon,

I might not find a much time during the championship than during the qualifying events (but we will have a pro there who will make a DVD).

What kind of airframes you are looking for? Just send me a PM.

:) Jürgen

[Armin Mangelmann]

Hi Jon,

in which town will you stay in? i have my shop close to hanau, (5min drive)..
As my cousin lives in solvang and we spent lots of time there, it is a must for me to invite a local of my wifes and mine "DREAMCITY" (to a cup of coffee...just contact me via pm, and we can see if we can meet...

kind regards
armin
:)

[Theo coenen]

update on the competition after 2 rounds

F3P
1st place Martin Müller
2nd place Derk van der Vecht
3rd place Kay
4th place Bert van der Vecht

Aeromusicals still to be flown today. and one round for the F3P. In F3P it the champion is already known as also the number 2. For place 3 it will be very close between 3 pilots.

The earomusicals promise to be a very good competition and will have very good shows in it.

[Malves]

I hope Jurgen has some vids for us.:D

[MrFlash]

Hes never let us down yet :D

[Jurgen Heilig]

Please find attached the complete results of the German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2006. Best Indoor flying I have seen so far (and I have seen a lot ;)) - especially during round 3 on Sunday (where I had very little time to video it :( ), but I hope Peter Ritters from PR Media has captured some of it on DVD.

:) Jürgen

[Pjotrrr]

Videoimpression found on www.rclineforum.de : http://www.it-tor.de/dm_indoor_2006.wmv

At the end of the championship there were some more demo and showflights, at that time they added some smoke and lights ;)
Bert van der Vecht (NL) flew his aeromusical for one time more:

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/Pjotrrr/Am4Bert.wmv

Music: Lord of the Rings
Custom build Ikarus Yak54:

[MrFlash]

Great work fellas !!

Appreciate it :D

[Jurgen Heilig]

Pilots with their models - F3P-B class:

[Jurgen Heilig]

Pilots with their models - F3P-A class (International FAI class):

[Jurgen Heilig]

Interesting to see how many views the various pilots get. ;)

What a pity that Stephanie did not qualify.

:) Jürgen

[Criz2k5]

Great Job Jürgen :-)

Criz

[Chitty3d]

Which on is you Jurgen?

[WACOFlyer]

Videoimpression found on www.rclineforum.de : http://www.it-tor.de/dm_indoor_2006.wmv


About 8 minutes in this video, you see this plane, the Nippel (the one on the right) http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=785892
Does anybody have more about this plane???

[Trisquire]

Hi Jürgen,

Thanks for posting all the pictures/info. It's nice to put faces with names, although many of them I recognize. Benoit Dierickx will have a grueling week if he's going to be in Toledo on Thursday.

Regards,
Tom

[Armin Mangelmann]

Hi there, well sorry to say, that the model on my picture is the "YAK54 AM" with its little brother tinynanoyak54EFFECT...

i did fly a manta for f3p- A

Kind regards
armin

[Jurgen Heilig]

Which on is you Jurgen?

When I took over the job as "Slow Fly Representative" for the German Model Flying Association (DMFV), I stopped competing at the Championships. You have enough on your plate organizing those kind of events (plus I am getting too old to compete with the "Nintendo Generation" ;)).

:) Jürgen

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hi Jürgen,
...
Benoit Dierickx will have a grueling week if he's going to be in Toledo on Thursday.

Regards,
Tom

Especially after he ripped a wing off his AeroMusicals model after the competition. Poor guy probably hardly will have had any sleep by the time he gets to Toronto. I recommended a trip to Niagara Falls with his girl friend after the event.

:) Jürgen

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hi there, well sorry to say, that the model on my picture is the "YAK54 AM" with its little brother tinynanoyak54EFFECT...

i did fly a manta for f3p- A

Kind regards
armin

Too bad ;). You should have presented both models then - like Manuel Nübel.

:) Jürgen

[Aio_1]

It's nice to see a good variety of planes being flown. Hopefully these events won't tend towards a single design any time soon.

Thanks as always for the photos Jurgen!

Aidan

[Malves]

Great! Thanx for all the info, guys.:)

[jludwick]

Jurgen, first class as always! I hope we'll see a specifications chart, like the ones you have produced in the past. ;) Also, let us know a link where we can purchase the official DVD.

Thanks again!

[Malves]

I am close to half way of the video. Any particular reason for Manuel Nubel's flight not beeing shown? It looks like it got awfuly windy in there for the cameraman.:D

[ededge2002]

Interesting to see how many views the various pilots get. ;)

What a pity that Stephanie did not qualify.

:) Jürgen


hi Jurgen thanks for your continued effort!

and yes that would be an interseting study she is WAY better looking than Martin even if he did win! hehe haha!

[Jurgen Heilig]

Nice mix of models: 20 biplanes and 18 monoplanes.

As most people did not change their model between qualification and finals, the old data charts are still valid.

:) Jürgen

[Mister UHU]

Hi Jurgen,

Great stuff !!!

Really interesting to see how experts do things,
unlike some RCG forums where beginner questions are asked.

But, I have some stupid questions for you myself (sorry).



Which is the most prestigious of the categories to win ?

Did anyone fly a rounded section aerofoil,
or did everybody use flat-plate sections ?

What types of transmitters did pilots use,
"console" type, or "non-console" ?

Why were there so many pilots from eastern europe,
can't the German pilot fly well enough ???

Were any planes noisy ?
(such as the ones with the "worm holes" ?)

Did each pilot fly individually,
i.e. can all the receivers used reject interference ?

Were there any multiple pilot displays,
or contests, i.e. formation flying ?

Did anyone fly a non-foamy model,
e.g. balsa etc ?

Are any of the pilots "super-stars",
as Hanno Prettner used to be ?


Thanks

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hi Jurgen,

Great stuff !!!

Really interesting to see how experts do things,
unlike some RCG forums where beginner questions are asked.

But, I have some stupid questions for you myself (sorry).


Which is the most prestigious of the categories to win ?

Did anyone fly a rounded section aerofoil,
or did everybody use flat-plate sections ?

What types of transmitters did pilots use,
"console" type, or "non-console" ?

Why were there so many pilots from eastern europe,
can't the German pilot fly well enough ???

Were any planes noisy ?
(such as the ones with the "worm holes" ?)

Did each pilot fly individually,
i.e. can all the receivers used reject interference ?

Were there any multiple pilot displays,
or contests, i.e. formation flying ?

Did anyone fly a non-foamy model,
e.g. balsa etc ?

Are any of the pilots "super-stars",
as Hanno Prettner used to be ?


Thanks

F3P-B is "just" an advanced class, while F3P-A is much more difficult. Experience from the past years show, that only a top class pilot can do very well in F3P-AM.

Very few pilots used profiled wing sections (Snowflake for example). Most models use flat plate and models like the Manta have "beefed up" leading edges.

Both types of tx were used.

It is a so called "Open German Championship" and pilots from other countries are welcome. The teams from the Netherlands and from the Czech Republik are regular visitors to our championship since 2003.

Mid-motor planes are always noisier than conventional ones. There weren't many of them. ;)

At any aerobatic competition pilots fly individually.

There is no class for formation flying, but as usual Martin and Stephanie did a duo and up to six Mantas did some formation aerobatics.

No balsa models at all.

There is one pilot who could be called "Super-Star", but Christophe Paysant-Le Roux wasn't competiting here. But even CPLR quite often is beaten by his brother and other top-pilots when it comes to Indoor flying. ;)

:) Jürgen

[Jurgen Heilig]

I have put some pictures in my blog. I know blogs are no real substitute for a proper gallery, but I promissed, that I would at least try. ;)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500623#post5282339

:) Jürgen

[Mister UHU]

Did each pilot fly individually,
i.e. can all the receivers used reject interference ?


Thanks


Hi Jurgen,

Thanks for the answers,
sorry if my questions were too obvious.


But you didn't answer my question about receiver performance.

I asked because looking at the charts of model specs,
some pilots used very small receivers,
such as GWS, MZK, etc,
that don't have BERG technology,
or special circuits like Schulze Alpha, etc.
To recognize only the signal from the pilot's TX,
and reject interference and noise.

I am looking for a very small RX,
but I need very clean performance,
without glitches, servo jitter, etc.

So I asked, did the pilots fly without any other TXs,
being switched on.
i.e. using a TX compound for safety etc.

Thanks.

If only I were such a good pilot .........
Buying technology is much, much, easier !


UHU

[Theo coenen]

The MZK recievers are Berg recievers with the latest software. I use already 3 off them and have no problems with interfence indoors and outdoors.

[Dick v/d Vecht]

Link to Video Aeromusical Martin Müller DM Eschweiler 2006

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/vdVechten/AM_Martin.wmv

Photoreport DM Eschweiler 2006.

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/d.vandervecht/Eschweiler

[jludwick]

:eek:

Martin dumps confetti during his AM!

:eek:

[Dick v/d Vecht]

Video Manuel Nübel Aeromusical show: Pied Piper of Hamelin.

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/vdVechten/Manuel_R.wmv

[MrFlash]

Great Videos Dick.

Many thanks for posting them

[dicker]

If you like Dick, I can make an english version of Manuels Aeromusical and send you the audio data ;)
I still do have everything in my Cubase Sound Editor System...

Nice filming, in between :)

yours Julian Wingert

[Malves]

Interesting to see how many views the various pilots get. ;)

I think that has to do more with the plane than with the pilot.

Dick,

I am waiting for Derk's pattern and AM videos.:D

[David Kyjovsky]

You can see them right here. (http://www.rcmania.cz/modules.php?name=Video) The catch is, if you have them played from the page, the video will be 320 pixels wide. If you download them and watch from your harddisk, the videos will be 480 pixels wide (worth the effort I guess....)

have fun,

David

[Mister UHU]

The MZK recievers are Berg recievers with the latest software.

I use already 3 off them

and have no problems with interfence indoors and outdoors.


Thanks.


I checked on some websites,

and as I suspected the PENTA model (5 channels, 2.8 gram)

as used by some aerobatic competitors,

does NOT have full Berg technology features.


But some MZK models do have full spec interference protection,

these models are : ---


QUATRA.....(4 channels,........7 gram)
SEXTA.......(6 channels,......12 gram)
OCTAVA.....(8 channels,......12 gram)

[sairaghi]

Hi, I think there is a new version of the PENTA with all features.
stefano

[ededge2002]

hi!

ok i have a big question! did the german team all change planes for the finals or just martin? is more info available on this "finals plane" looks like a yak of some sort?

any other pics of the other pilots versions of this new "finals plane"?

thanks!
ededge2002

[Dick v/d Vecht]

More Videos

F3P-A pilot: Derk van der Vecht.
http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/vdVechten/F3P-A-Esch.wmv

F3P-B pilot: Robbin Grob.
http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/vdVechten/F3P-B-Esch.wmv

F3P-AM pilot: Derk van der Vecht.
http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/vdVechten/AM_Derk-Esch.wmv

Dick

[Pjotrrr]

The new Penta Pro 5 channel receiver (4 gr.) has all the Quatra features.
It was for sale at the fair in Dortmund, Germany,

Peter

[Malves]

More Videos
F3P-A pilot: Derk van der Vecht.
F3P-AM pilot: Derk van der Vecht.

Dick

Thanx, Dick. I never get tired of watching Derk flying.:)

[Mister UHU]

The new Penta Pro 5 channel receiver (4 gr.)
has all the Quatra features.

It was for sale at the fair in Dortmund, Germany,

Peter


Thanks for the info.

I didn't find this info on the MZK-Servis website,
or listed on other websites I found after searching.

If it works well, and is not half-finished, like the Castle Creations-Berg RXs,
then it could be a popular RX.

I will look out for it in the UK.

[MrFlash]

Nice Vids Dick,

Must have been tricky trying to fly with the sun beaming in thourough the windows :cool:

[Trisquire]

At least it was beaming in from behind his back.

[rcflyerx]

It's all about the control!

[MrFlash]

It's all about the control!

Its all about sunglasses :cool:

[Dick v/d Vecht]

Nice Vids Dick,

Must have been tricky trying to fly with the sun beaming in thourough the windows :cool:


It looks far worse trough the camera lens than it did in reality. No problem at all for the human eye.

[Dick v/d Vecht]

Video F3P-A: Pilot, my brother, Bert van der Vecht.


http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/vdVechten/F3P-A-Bert-Esch.wmv

Dick.

[Trisquire]

Nice flying. I "chat sessioned" with Bert during the ETOC last night. We talked about Strecker motors, potential F3P world championships, etc.

Regards,
Tom

[MrFlash]

Nice flying .Whats the plane Dick ? , is it an own design ?

[Malves]

Nice flying .Whats the plane Dick ? , is it an own design ?

That's the Bling bling. It's their own design.:) Nice flying.

I just love Bert's new Yak colors.:)

[Dick v/d Vecht]

It is a "Bling-bling V3", the latest development of the Bling-bling series. The main design feature is that is has so much fuselage side area that it flies at the same angle of attack in Knife edge as in normal or inverted flight. As you might expect, this makes the transitions to and from knife edge flight very easy. It does take some time to get used to an airplane that is as agile around the top axis as it is around the lateral and longitudinal axi but it was worth the effort, Bert thinks.

[Petr Chyska]

Hello Dick !

Why Derk and Bert prefer monoplanes ?? I'm happy of my last biplane "Sniper". I'am training in small hall about 33 meters long and 7 meters high and it's reason for slow flying. Biplane is able to fly slower than monoplane, but I want to try small, light and slow monoplane like "Bling Bling" (for F3P-A)... For what reason Derk and Bert use monoplane ??

Thanks
Petr Chyska (Czech rep.)

[Bert v/d Vecht]

Hi Petr,

It was nice meeting you at the German open indoor finals last week. I am sure you will do much better next time, if you work on the things we discussed there. :)

The monoplane versus biplane question for F3P is not an easy one to answer.
In general biplanes have lower wingloadings, can be flown slower and have much higher drag.

The higher drag of the biplanes also means that they tend to produce more wake turbulence behind them. Unfortunately the F3P schedule has to be flown in a way that at several places you will need to fly trough the same piece of air in a short order of time. A plane that leaves a large wake turbulence behind it can get thrown around by the turbulence quite a lot, making the pilot loose many points.

The slippery monoplane has less drag and generally produces less wake turbulence behind it. The higher speed of the monoplanes makes it more difficult to fly the program but this can be overcome by training. No amount of training however, will ever help to completely avoid losing points by flying trough turbulence.

The ceiling height of the hall plays a big part in the biplane vs monoplane debate. When flying in a hall much higher than the average (7-8 meter) German standard, the advantage shifts more towards the biplane. The wake turbulence plays almost no role there as it takes much more time to complete a manouvre like a loop under a high ceiling, so that the wake turbulence will have died away by the time the plane has reached the starting point of the loop. Also the higher drag of the biplane will help limit the vertical diving speed of the model from a high ceiling. Under a low ceiling the extra drag of the biplane does almost nothing to help limit the vertical diving speed. Monoplanes and biplanes all drop like stones for the first few meters. Only after they have fallen more than 4-5 meters the speed is high enough for the drag to make a difference.

I hope you now understand why we fly monoplanes.
(Last year only Derk, Martin and myself were flying monoplanes in F3P competition but this year about half of the competitors used monoplanes.)

[Petr Chyska]

Hi Bert !

Thank you for your answer, I understand why you fly monoplanes. I think your reasons are really good, and I'd like to build monoplane too. By the way I'm working on the things :) . Turbulence is my big problem, because I training in quite short hall (33metres). If monoplane make lower turbulence it's very good reason for use it. I think, that monoplane is better for torque roll. My new biplane is too long and I have a problem, when I going to torque roll I have different elevation (I think you know what I mean)... Next week after DM06 I was training in hall and I set more deflection for elevator and I still have this problem... I fly with biplane because it was the czech trend but monoplane is maybe way for me too.

I hope you understand, because my english is horrible... :)

Thanks
Petr Chyska (Czech rep.)

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hi Bert !
...
I hope you understand, because my english is horrible... :-)

Thanks
Petr Chyska (Czech rep.)

Hi Petr,

I don't think anybody will have a problem with your English. ;)

:) Jürgen

[Jurgen Heilig]

Some video clips from the German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2006:

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DM2006-F3P-A-MM.wmv

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DM2006-F3P-A-BD.wmv

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DM2006-F3P-AM-MM.wmv

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DM2006-F3P-AM-DV.wmv

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DM2006-F3P-AM-BV.wmv

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DM2006-F3P-AM-MN.wmv

Enjoy!

:) Jürgen

[Alexandre Cruz]

Hi peter,

Can you provide some more info of your biplane? How is that fuselage built? Is that 3mm depron? What about wing spars? What is the power setup?

Sorry for so many questions

Alexanrde

[Petr Chyska]

Hi peter,

Can you provide some more info of your biplane? How is that fuselage built? Is that 3mm depron? What about wing spars? What is the power setup?

Sorry for so many questions

Alexanrde


Hi Alexandre,

I can provide some more info, it's no problem, but my english isn't good for describe details :o . Fuselage is made of 3mm depron. Fotos will say more... This is my third evolution prototype...
I'm happy from this plane, because it flies precisely, slow, and so on...
Here is a video of F3P-A with Sniper from Deutche Meisterschaft 2006 - for download click here www.rcmania.cz (http://www.rcmania.cz/modules.php?name=Video&op=download_remote&video_id=27)

Weight: 146 grams
Wing span: 76 cm
Motor: POT 30W by Potensky (http://www.potensky.cz/potensky-english.htm)
Battery: 2 cells of 340 Kokam
Controller: 7A Potensky
Transciever: Pico Smart 5 FM (Potensky)
Servos: Waypoint 60

Do you have any more quetions ?

Petr Chyska (Czech rep.)

[Malves]

That IS one sweet bipe!:)

[Alexandre Cruz]

Sorry I did not knew Sniper was sold as a kit.
Really nice plane
Here in Brasil we can not even find depron or carbon, most of us import from USA or build with pluma which is way heavier.
Small motors are even more rare, the tinnest we can get in a hobby shop is the AXI 2208, so we wind and modify CD motors when a lighter motor is needed (or import). Fortunatelly our cellings are higher than the avarage....
Is there a potensky distribuctor in the US? I´ll travel to there next week for a championship (not aerobatics) and would like to bring some motors/servos.
What is inside the fuse? A depron triangle?

Thanks a lot

[David Kyjovsky]

Just go here to check them out. (http://www.rcmania.cz/modules.php?name=Video&op=category&vidmod_cat=6) .

Enjoy,

David

[David Kyjovsky]

Hi Petr,

It was nice meeting you at the German open indoor finals last week. I am sure you will do much better next time, if you work on the things we discussed there. :)

The monoplane versus biplane question for F3P is not an easy one to answer.
In general biplanes have lower wingloadings, can be flown slower and have much higher drag.

The higher drag of the biplanes also means that they tend to produce more wake turbulence behind them. Unfortunately the F3P schedule has to be flown in a way that at several places you will need to fly trough the same piece of air in a short order of time. A plane that leaves a large wake turbulence behind it can get thrown around by the turbulence quite a lot, making the pilot loose many points.

The slippery monoplane has less drag and generally produces less wake turbulence behind it. The higher speed of the monoplanes makes it more difficult to fly the program but this can be overcome by training. No amount of training however, will ever help to completely avoid losing points by flying trough turbulence.

The ceiling height of the hall plays a big part in the biplane vs monoplane debate. When flying in a hall much higher than the average (7-8 meter) German standard, the advantage shifts more towards the biplane. The wake turbulence plays almost no role there as it takes much more time to complete a manouvre like a loop under a high ceiling, so that the wake turbulence will have died away by the time the plane has reached the starting point of the loop. Also the higher drag of the biplane will help limit the vertical diving speed of the model from a high ceiling. Under a low ceiling the extra drag of the biplane does almost nothing to help limit the vertical diving speed. Monoplanes and biplanes all drop like stones for the first few meters. Only after they have fallen more than 4-5 meters the speed is high enough for the drag to make a difference.

I hope you now understand why we fly monoplanes.
(Last year only Derk, Martin and myself were flying monoplanes in F3P competition but this year about half of the competitors used monoplanes.)

Hi Bert,

I am not sure if I can agree with all of your conclusions - the monoplane is lighter and more slippery, but with its higher wingloading, the wake is still considerable...
I believe that the main difference is the airspeed. The monoplane flies much faster and is therefore less sensitive to the turbulence. It stays in the turbulent air for shorter time and some of the turbulence cancels out when the speed is big enough.
My experience from biplane flying: if I add some power in say the 4th quarter of the loop, the exit is usually very clean (and faster of course).
My fault that I cannot make myself to fly a bit faster... in the beginning of indoor aerobatics it seemed that the judges like slow flight better, but surely this is not so any more.
Having said all the above, I will experiment with a monoplane too ... just in case ;)

Cheers,

David

[Bert v/d Vecht]

David,

Yes, airspeed and wingloading also play an important role in the difference between bipe's and monoplanes. I agree that a small punch of power at the exit of a loop helps getting trough the turbulent air at the bottom. You describe perfectly that it is not easy to time the exact moment and amount of throttle punch. How would you like an airplane that picks up speed at the bottom of a loop all by it's own? Enter the monoplane....

For years and years we indoor aerobatic pilots have been struggling with overweight airplanes and equipment. A biplane seemed like the only possible way to fly slow enough because of its natural lower wingloading. At the present time however we can make airplanes with such a low wing loading that they fly more like balloons than airplanes. I think that we must leave the "slower is better" doctrine behind us and focus on precision. Most monoplane pilots agree that it is more difficult to fly the sequence at the higher speed of the monoplane, but they think it is worth the trade-off to achieve more precision.

I experienced a similar thing with my 89 gram Shockwave last year. As you problably can recall I flew the finals with 14 grams of lead at the C of G to get the wing loading just right. It flew faster, but much more precise.

Please understand that I am not saying that the biplane is "over and done with". All I am saying is that with today's lightweight equipment the biplane is no longer mandatory.

Cheers,
Bert.

[Petr Chyska]

David,

...

I experienced a similar thing with my 89 gram Shockwave last year. As you problably can recall I flew the finals with 14 grams of lead at the C of G to get the wing loading just right. It flew faster, but much more precise.

...



Cheers,
Bert.

Hi Bert,

I think, our idea is "lighter is better". Why did you put a lead to CG ? What was better with it ?

cheers,
Petr

[Bert v/d Vecht]

Hi Petr,

If an airplane is too light it lacks inertia. A certain minimum amount of inertia is needed to make it easier to fly straight lines. Also inertia helps keeping the speed constant trough a manouvre. A plane with not enough inertia will stop dead on it's tracks if a control surface is moved out of neutral. There is simply not enough inertia to overcome the added drag of the control surface.
It is just too difficult to keep constantly adjusting the power with every tiny change in control deflection.

This year I also flew with lead on my F3P airplane. (After all the work I had done lightening the servo's and wire's I ended up adding lead to make it fly better, duh :) .)

The optimum weight for a Blingbling monoplane seems to be around 120-125 gram. (76cm span 78cm length). Mine was 114 gram without lead and believe me that extra 7grams of lead made a big difference!

For an aeromusical model it is even more important to have enough inertia to perform certain stalled and rotational manouvres like snaprolls. In fact if you look at the result list of the aeromusical program you will find the heaviest planes on the podium and the lightest planes way back. It allways amazes me how the really good pilots are able to fly such heavy planes and make them look light in the air by their flying skills.

Cheers,
Bert.

[Petr Chyska]

Hi Petr,

If an airplane is too light it lacks inertia. A certain minimum amount of inertia is needed to make it easier to fly straight lines. Also inertia helps keeping the speed constant trough a manouvre. A plane with not enough inertia will stop dead on it's tracks if a control surface is moved out of neutral. There is simply not enough inertia to overcome the added drag of the control surface.
It is just too difficult to keep constantly adjusting the power with every tiny change in control deflection.

This year I also flew with lead on my F3P airplane. (After all the work I had done lightening the servo's and wire's I ended up adding lead to make it fly better, duh :) .)

The optimum weight for a Blingbling monoplane seems to be around 120-125 gram. (76cm span 78cm length). Mine was 114 gram without lead and believe me that extra 7grams of lead made a big difference!

For an aeromusical model it is even more important to have enough inertia to perform certain stalled and rotational manouvres like snaprolls. In fact if you look at the result list of the aeromusical program you will find the heaviest planes on the podium and the lightest planes way back. It allways amazes me how the really good pilots are able to fly such heavy planes and make them look light in the air by their flying skills.

Cheers,
Bert.

Hi Bert,

I am looking forward to my monoplane, because i think your opinions are right, but I must try it :) ... I am afraid, that my hall (33meters) is quite small for so relatively fast plane...

Cheers,
Petr

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hi Bert,

I am looking forward to my monoplane, because i think your opinions are right, but I must try it :) ... I am afraid, that my hall (33meters) is quite small for so relatively fast plane...

Cheers,
Petr

Hi Petr,

If you compare the times of Benoit Dierickx's Mystic and Martin Müller's Manta, the difference is not that big. It took Benoit approx. 1:58 min from Take-Off to Touch-Down, while Martin flew 1:51 min.

:) Jürgen

[Mister UHU]

Very interesting discussion about speed control, and inertia.

But I thought the variable pitch propellers
were designed to help with this sort of thing ?

Unless I misunderstood or mis-read the results chart of the German champs,
pilots weren't using variable pitch props ?

Years ago when remotely controllable props were first used in engine powered aerobatics,
it was to try to slow down the manoeuvres,
as the models were fast flying,
and so limited the aerobatics schedule that could be performed.

[Trisquire]

Hi Petr,

If you compare the times of Benoit Dierickx's Mystic and Martin Müller's Manta, the difference is not that big. It took Benoit approx. 1:58 min from Take-Off to Touch-Down, while Martin flew 1:51 min.

:) Jürgen
Based on those times, monoplanes are about 6% faster.

Regards,
Tom

[David Kyjovsky]

Ok Bert, I got your point :)

It is obvious that monoplanes are very competitive - one peek at the podium presence in F3P is all you need ...

On the other hand, I still believe that a well tuned bipe would give the monos a ride... anyway, I have a monoplane in mind that I am quite eager to test (right after the F3A season, or at least the Euro and Czech championships, are over).
Something is telling me that it will have 76 span, 78 lenght :rolleyes: .
Other than that, it should be a bit different..

Thanks for your opinions,

David

[Petr Chyska]

...

I am quite eager to test (right after the F3A season, or at least the Euro and Czech championships, are over).

...

David

Hi David,

I am VERY eager to test it :D :D

Cheers,
Petr

[Jurgen Heilig]

...
But I thought the variable pitch propellers
were designed to help with this sort of thing ?

Unless I misunderstood or mis-read the results chart of the German champs,
pilots weren't using variable pitch props ?
...

Nobody used VPP for pattern, only for AeroMusicals.

:) Jürgen

[Mister UHU]

Nobody used VPP for pattern,
only for AeroMusicals.

:) Jürgen


Jurgen, you are teasing me a bit.

I'm am not expert in aerobatics.

I didn't attend this contest.

So.....WHY ?


Is VPP answer to control of flight speed or not ?

Sorry if I am idiot, but I really don't know.

[Trisquire]

These days VPP is used more for unusual tricks: nose down hovers, etc. Pilots use more 'static' ways of controlling flight speed, such as permanently mounted air brakes.

I remember reading about F3A planes using VPP to control flight speed in the late 70s/early 80s.

Regards,
Tom

[Mister UHU]

These days VPP is used more for unusual tricks: nose down hovers, etc.
Pilots use more 'static' ways of controlling flight speed,
such as permanently mounted air brakes.

I remember reading about F3A planes using VPP to control flight speed
in the late 70s/early 80s.

Regards,
Tom

Thanks for the enlightenment.

Yes I read about early VPP.

Some years later I had a chance to discuss this briefly
with the legend that was Hanno Prettner.
He told me how he developed his VPP,
to make new manoeuvres possible.
And so fly a new routine, that other pilots didn't have,
and so impress the judges.

[Jurgen Heilig]

Jurgen, you are teasing me a bit.

I'm am not expert in aerobatics.

I didn't attend this contest.

So.....WHY ?


Is VPP answer to control of flight speed or not ?

Sorry if I am idiot, but I really don't know.

I am not teasing you. I just gave you a brief answer.

The VPP still adds too much complexity and weight and is therefore not really suitable for pattern. It is only used in AeroMusicals to perform spectacular and exciting new maneuvers.

:) Jürgen

[Armin Mangelmann]

Hi UHU,

well, i attended the show on the fair in dortmund last week and flew my mimoyak (middle motor yak) which is slightly big, 1 m by 1 m and 230 g of weight...
In dortmund, we are forced to fly in a very small area and i was surprised how good it worked.
i will defenately try a big f3a with vpp for my own pleasure, this will happen during summertime, as i have plenty of projects to close anyway...

But many spectators of the show in dortmund told me, that the model did fly very solid and smoove, so i will give it a try. some f3a pilots almost forced me into trying, so i will give it a shot...
but it will take some time...

kr
armin mangelmann

[Mister UHU]

The VPP still adds too much complexity and weight
and is therefore not really suitable for pattern.

It is only used in AeroMusicals
to perform spectacular and exciting new maneuvers.

:) Jürgen


I see !

Thank you Jurgen.

[Mister UHU]

Hi Armin.

That sounds like a very original model.
Maybe new manoeuvres possible ???

I have been looking at your shop website.
Lots of special hardware for indoor models.
So many options, and combinations available.
Very tempting, but my eyes are bigger than my wallet !
And I have other projects I need to finish.

Do you visit UK ?
e.g. sell at model shows ??

[Armin Mangelmann]

Well, as we do not visit many fairs (for selling) there is no intention to visit uk....but if there is any indoor competition going on, based on the fai rules why not come over, i am sure i would find some other pilots to join me, am i right Jürgen?

kr
armin

[simon 3D]

Hi armin, there is no F3P-AM scene over here in the uk, i was involved with trying to get a comp together,but it all went pear-shaped,losing the venue etc.
I would love to compete with you guys at A level, would love to fly at carvin this year.

Cheers
Simon

[MrFlash]

Dont know of any such comps planned over here . Shure would be nice if some manufacturers got there act together to sponsor something :rolleyes:

[Armin Mangelmann]

Well, who sais sponsoring is needed..???

You just need to organize a gym, which is big enough, the pilots will come themselves....

We will see....

Carvin, well, i of course do plan to defet my title from last year :D

But know, i am taking a break from indoor and am just working on my new 2.6 krill katana, which will be electric...after that, in june, i will make up my mind on the new program freestyle for carvin this year...

Well, happy easter to all of you

kr
armin

[KOOKAI]

Wow this sniper thng looks awesome.
Is their a plan or a kit available?

I like it very much....

[Mister UHU]

As for U.K. venue I was thinking of stands at established model show,
e.g. Sandown, Wings and Wheels, etc, etc.

If you want flying too, then N.E.C. show held in Birmingham last summer,
used halls plenty big enough.

I don't know if it will be held again this year.
Last year there was both indoor and outdoor display flying,
by various trade sponsored pilots, some very good, others weaker.

I fly with a group in a sports hall,
maybe some members would organize a competition,
but I am a bit doubtful.

[MrFlash]

As for U.K. venue I was thinking of stands at established model show,
e.g. Sandown, Wings and Wheels, etc, etc.

If you want flying too, then N.E.C. show held in Birmingham last summer,
used halls plenty big enough.


N.E.C , or M.E.N. type arena's would be easily big enough , but I betcha the price matches the size :rolleyes:

[Jurgen Heilig]

Top pilots don't need much space. ;):

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/DO2006-MM-Smoke.wmv

:) Jürgen