Indoor Pattern planes

[perttime]

Some stuff that I am aware of:

http://www.slope-combat.de/shop/ (Knuffel and smove plans and kits)
http://home.netsurf.de/jacob.rosendorfer/silwas/silwas.pdf (plan)
http://www.slow-flyer.com/ (kits, semi kits)

http://forum.rcmarket.lt/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=35 (pretty neat plane, just pictures so far?)

Edit: here is a local design (you have to register to get the plans and build pics). I do not think Kimmo K minds me posting this.
http://lennokit.net/viewtopic.php?t=5820&sid=d0e428c3050c7da22cd422b0a31c530b
http://lennokit.net/viewtopic.php?t=5820&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165

[3d_Crazy]

The Equalizer was designed as an Indoor Pattern/F3P plane:

http://www.e-foamies.com/Pictures/fusion_series/equalizer/EQ_NEW_02.jpg

http://www.e-foamies.com/3D/EQ.asp?product=EQ

Tim
e-foamies.com

[blucor basher]

I'm glad this forum exists, and one of my next projects is a modified build of a Sabre (http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/detail.aspx?ID=451) for indoor pattern. I've been playing with it and I think 8 oz. is possible, with mods. I'll post it in here.

[3d_Crazy]

I'm glad this forum exists, and one of my next projects is a modified build of a Sabre (http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/detail.aspx?ID=451) for indoor pattern. I've been playing with it and I think 8 oz. is possible, with mods. I'll post it in here.

Great minds think alike ;) I'm working on one right now and from my calculations it should only come out about .6oz heavier than a shock-flyer :cool:

Tim

[blucor basher]

Hmmm...yeah, but you don't know how many wings I'm using....

:D

[Jurgen Heilig]

I'm glad this forum exists, and one of my next projects is a modified build of a Sabre (http://www.3dhobbyshop.com/detail.aspx?ID=451) for indoor pattern. I've been playing with it and I think 8 oz. is possible, with mods. I'll post it in here.

This forum is for Indoor pattern. A model like the Sabre, even at 8 oz would still be much too heavy.

The top models at the German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2005 were more in the 5-5.5 oz class.

:) Jürgen

[ChrisBowker]

This forum is for Indoor pattern. A model like the Sabre, even at 8 oz would still be much too heavy.

The top models at the German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2005 were more in the 5-5.5 oz class.

:) Jürgen


what size of pack would you say is commonly used? most of my models come in at 8 but im using 800 size packs.

Chris

[airmcn_3]

This forum is for Indoor pattern. A model like the Sabre, even at 8 oz would still be much too heavy.

The top models at the German Indoor Aerobatics Championship 2005 were more in the 5-5.5 oz class.

:) Jürgen

Hey Jurgen, Just a thought. Since the great world of indoor F3A comes from your home country, Why don't you post pics and detailed info on your guys setups, This would include, all weight saving technique, push-rods, servos, heat shrink on push rods and the best way to be done, Best Glue (Weight related) ESC's, Motors. ETC. Maybe get them in one spot so when people come here and want to build a F3A bird they can look and have a Solid competition setup that works well with no worries. Just a thought. Take Care Chris Mc Nair

[blucor basher]

Jurgen-

I'm sure it would be, for serious competition on the international level. As it is, in the USA, all most of us can do is practice. For that, our 7-8oz. biplanes sould do nicely.

[3d_Crazy]

Hmmm...yeah, but you don't know how many wings I'm using....

:D

This is true ;)

[Devin McGRath]

Hey Jurgen, Just a thought. Since the great world of indoor F3A comes from your home country, Why don't you post pics and detailed info on your guys setups, This would include, all weight saving technique, push-rods, servos, heat shrink on push rods and the best way to be done, Best Glue (Weight related) ESC's, Motors. ETC. Maybe get them in one spot so when people come here and want to build a F3A bird they can look and have a Solid competition setup that works well with no worries. Just a thought. Take Care Chris Mc Nair



I believe they are usualy 340 - 480 mah packs

[3d_Crazy]

What about landing gear. What is the ultra-lite landing gear setup?

[Trisquire]

Hey Jurgen, Just a thought. Since the great world of indoor F3A comes from your home country, Why don't you post pics and detailed info on your guys setups, This would include, all weight saving technique, push-rods, servos, heat shrink on push rods and the best way to be done, Best Glue (Weight related) ESC's, Motors. ETC. Maybe get them in one spot so when people come here and want to build a F3A bird they can look and have a Solid competition setup that works well with no worries. Just a thought. Take Care Chris Mc Nair
That's what I was hoping to get out of this forum. Information and pics from the Europeans.

Regards,
Tom

[Paul Tupker]

Congratulations with this new topic on the E-zone Forum. I think, however, that a better name for it should be:
FAI- International and World Class Indoor Classes
In this way it covers F3P, AM (aeromusical), evt. future indoor freestyle,indoor pylon etc.
Maybee somebody has other ideas.

[Devin McGRath]

Not sure about how they do it over in Europe but I use the lightest carbon rod possible in combination with the sockflyer hard ware. I usually use the stuff that the push rods are made out of in a shocky kit for the landing gear.

Devin McGrath


Edit: You can go even lighter by putting a piece of fishing line between the wheels but it gets caught on everything

[ChrisBowker]

Congratulations with this new topic on the E-zone Forum. I think, however, that a better name for it should be:
FAI- International and World Class Indoor Classes
In this way it covers F3P, AM (aeromusical), evt. future indoor freestyle,indoor pylon etc.
Maybee somebody has other ideas.


i think this does cover aeromusical's...but pylon? im not sure if this is the right place for indoor pylon. i think the idea behind this fourm is to make a place for indoor precision aerobatics.

Chris

[Tim H.]

I'm re-working the Mini 3DX right now for indoor pattern. Longer tail moment, more side area and a few more tweaks. Should work out realy well and fly very smoothly. I've got A.C. Glenn test flying a re-worked Echelon Bipe too.

Tim H.

[ChrisBowker]

should be neat to see.

Chris

[Erik Johansson]

I'm re-working the Mini 3DX right now for indoor pattern. Longer tail moment, more side area and a few more tweaks. Should work out realy well and fly very smoothly. I've got A.C. Glenn test flying a re-worked Echelon Bipe too.

Tim H.

The new Mini 3DX will be interesting to see. I´m hoping for "square" dimensions (fuse length same as wingspan) and at least 6" fuselage height at the highest point. ;)

There are really light ways of making a full fuse version and I think I might try that. I have seen some 5 oz full fuse 32" planes and that looks like a sweet option for the lower classes (which are still a handful for most of us).

/Erik

[Aio_1]

What sort of props and power levels are generally favoured for indoor pattern?
I would imagine ~65W peak is plenty and something like a 9x3.8 prop?
I intend to build something based on a PJS 300SF and a 3s TP prolite 480mAh cells.


Aidan

[Draganfly]

Indoor pattern is very interesting to me. Unfortunately, I have no gym to practice in. In the hopes of promoting it, though, I brought in the Donuts Models kits:
http://parts.rctoys.com/rc-toys-hobbies/RC%20Airplanes/

The Aito available there won more than one high profile indoor competition this winter. I built one of the Aitos we brought in, and would be happy to share my building experience if anyone wants help building the kit. I think key to the Aito is equipping it properly.

The other thing we've done is bring in an EPP practice airplane. The SX3, also available at the above link, literally flies, unlike the majority of flat-winged indoor planes, and is very smooth in the air. The best part is, it is pretty much indestructable. I did a lawn dart nose plant from about 4m high and the only damage was a 1" tear in the EPP near the nose, and the RX crystal popped out! The SX3 is more of an outdoor plane, though, so it should only be flown indoors if the gym is very large.

Adam Glatt,
F3A pilot the four warm months of the year and indoor dreamer the other eight,
Draganfly Innovations

[perttime]

What do you think?

Should we stick to stricktly indoor-oriented planes here

OR

Should we "allow" talk about pattern-style planes that are more at home outdoors?

[Erik Johansson]

What do you think?

Should we stick to stricktly indoor-oriented planes here

OR

Should we "allow" talk about pattern-style planes that are more at home outdoors?

Defintely stick with indoor planes only. That´s why this forum came to be, to put them apart from all the other bigger/heavier 3D/freestyle/pattern planes discussed in the 3D forum.

/Erik

[matchlessaero]

I'm re-working the Mini 3DX right now for indoor pattern. Longer tail moment, more side area and a few more tweaks. Should work out realy well and fly very smoothly. I've got A.C. Glenn test flying a re-worked Echelon Bipe too.

I'd be interested in hearing what your results are Tim. I've been working for some time on a modified version of one of my designs for improved precision flight. My experiments have also included more optimized side area and next is a longer tail.

Matter of fact, I've been on the phone many evenings over the past month or so trying to help AC trim out the kits he got from you for best performance.

[Aio_1]

Defintely stick with indoor planes only...
Agreed. No harm in mentioning a hybrid plane in passing but it's probably best to avoid the territory covered in the other forums as much as possible.

[pkruse]

Agreed. No harm in mentioning a hybrid plane in passing but it's probably best to avoid the territory covered in the other forums as much as possible.

I agree

[Tim H.]

The new Mini 3DX will be interesting to see. I´m hoping for "square" dimensions (fuse length same as wingspan) and at least 6" fuselage height at the highest point. ;)

There are really light ways of making a full fuse version and I think I might try that. I have seen some 5 oz full fuse 32" planes and that looks like a sweet option for the lower classes (which are still a handful for most of us).

/Erik

Here is what I have so far. It's only about 1/4" off square and the fuse is almost 7" tall. Should track great. What I will probably do is post plans as a Beta release and seek input as to changes. That way, we can all work on optomizing performance and end up with a realy great flying plane. I'll probably post the plans later this week.

Tim H.

[Team3D]

I can't wait for this F3P Mini 3dX. I already saved a spot on my radio for
it and please, do post some beta tester plans :D

PS-I think my axi is calling for this plane :cool:

[Malves]

How about the Slick from m-a-e.com? They have a lite indoor (http://m-a-e.com/Sub_Pages/Products/SLICK%20Kits.htm#Slick%20Lite) package under 5oz. I had 2 before and it flies great.
I've just got another one and I'm building it right now. I did a few mods on this one, thou. :)

[cmartin]

My first Depron model, the Spasm is 20"x20" indoor pattern attempt. It is all 3mm Depron. I designed it to put a Mighty Midget micro BL to work and aimed for IMAC-type flying so I suppose it fits into this thread. It has a SH&R Rx, YGE4BL and Falcon servos. AUW with 2s-250's is 59 grams. T:W is right at 1:1, good enough for my cababilities. The airframe, power and receiver are very satisfactory but the Falcon servos leave MUCH to be desired for this type of model.
Carl

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hey Jurgen, Just a thought. Since the great world of indoor F3A comes from your home country, Why don't you post pics and detailed info on your guys setups, This would include, all weight saving technique, push-rods, servos, heat shrink on push rods and the best way to be done, Best Glue (Weight related) ESC's, Motors. ETC. Maybe get them in one spot so when people come here and want to build a F3A bird they can look and have a Solid competition setup that works well with no worries. Just a thought. Take Care Chris Mc Nair

I already have the data from the last German Championship on my homepage:

http://people.freenet.de/slowfly/modelldatendm2005.gif

:) Jürgen

[ChrisBowker]

will there be any video's?

Chris

[Jurgen Heilig]

will there be any video's?

Chris

Some videoclips are in my gallery, but the new season starts this weekend in Poing (near Munich/Germany) and should provide new videos. ;)

:) Jürgen

[matchlessaero]

Nice bird CMartin.

The airframe, power and receiver are very satisfactory but the Falcon servos leave MUCH to be desired for this type of model.
Carl

By the stats on the model, I think you've over matched the Falcons a bit. They are small on the power side(as you stated), and as such, hingelines and control horn friction and surface size begins to make a huge difference. My largest bird with Falcons is a 17" span bird....

Well, here is my newest bird. I designed this one to bring precision into my freestyles/aeromusicals. I'll hopefully get it in the air in about a week or so....

[Malves]

...

[MKH]

[QUOTE=Malves]Here's my Slick.:) The mods I did were pull-pull for the rudder, bracing, carbon rods behind TE, landing gear.
[QUOTE]

I thought I might try kevlar bracing on my next Slick. Any special layout for the threads, or just TLAR approach? How did you anchor them to the points where they attach to the foam? Looks really sturdy.
MKH

[Tim H.]

I thought I might try kevlar bracing on my next Slick. Any special layout for the threads, or just TLAR approach? How did you anchor them to the points where they attach to the foam? Looks really sturdy.
MKH

Here's a bracing guide I put together a few weeks ago. Works great!

Tim H.

[MKH]

Tim, thanks for sharing that! I saw your '5 new planes' thread, and wanted to see the bracing layout, just didn't want to ask you for any factory secrets. Very kind of you to share your methods. :) :)
MKH

[Tim H.]

No secrets... Glad to help!

I should have the Beta plans for my plane posted later this afternoon or tomorow. I'm just working on the parts layout now.

Update - Here are the beta plans for the Mini 3DX Pattern/F3P. As of yet, un-named... I formatted the plans for 8.5 x 11 and A4 paper. No build details on the plans, just parts. You can download my Mini Series instruction manual at http://www.foamyfactory.com/images/mini-instructions.zip

I've been stuck out here in Hobbs without anything to build with, so these are untested waters... Have fun!

Tim

[Malves]

I thought I might try kevlar bracing on my next Slick. Any special layout for the threads, or just TLAR approach? How did you anchor them to the points where they attach to the foam? Looks really sturdy.
MKH

I've used the same layout showed in the foamfactory site.:) For the anchor points I used CF tube. ;)

[ChrisBowker]

No secrets... Glad to help!

I should have the Beta plans for my plane posted later this afternoon or tomorow. I'm just working on the parts layout now.

Update - Here are the beta plans for the Mini 3DX Pattern/F3P. As of yet, un-named... I formatted the plans for 8.5 x 11 and A4 paper. No build details on the plans, just parts. You can download my Mini Series instruction manual at http://www.foamyfactory.com/images/mini-instructions.zip

I've been stuck out here in Hobbs without anything to build with, so these are untested waters... Have fun!

Tim

hobbs newmexico?

[Tim H.]

hobbs newmexico?

Yup, Hobbs NM... I fly a BE1900D for Air Midwest Airlines and I'm domiciled here in Hobbs. I go into ABQ Monday through Thursday. Me and a couple of other pilots have a crashpad here in Hobbs. I usually have stuff here to build, but not this week.

Tim

[ChrisBowker]

it all makes sence, if you havent noticed im from abq, just thought it was a little weird.

Chris

[perttime]

Just thinking aloud....

Would anybody have the time and energy to explain, maybe in a dedicated thread, how and why a design ended up looking as it did?
... what a sentence ...

What considerations are there, when deciding the shape of your design?

[Aio_1]

Just thinking aloud....

Would anybody have the time and energy to explain, maybe in a dedicated thread, how and why a design ended up looking as it did?
... what a sentence ...

What considerations are there, when deciding the shape of your design?
Don't know about a dedicated thread but I think most model aircraft shapes are based on 4 main considerations:
1. Performance aerodynamics (wing area, aerofoil, area distribution.....)
2. Control aerodynamics (area distribution, control surface location and size, dihedral.....)
3. Weight and CG (type of structure, distribution of mass, distribution of flight loads.....)
4 Aesthetics (I think most of the time people pick a style and the aerodynamics etc follows from there!)

Aidan

[perttime]

1. Performance aerodynamics (wing area, aerofoil, area distribution.....)
2. Control aerodynamics (area distribution, control surface location and size, dihedral.....)Anybody want to elaborate on these?
Any practical examples?

[Aio_1]

I did leave that kind of vague!
Performance aerodynamics would be mainly the effect of the shape of the plane on lift/drag and stall speed. This would include considering the following:
wing loading - as a means of allowing low flying speed and quick changes of direction
aspect ratio (span divided by the mean chord) - low aspect ratio is inefficent but can be built light and produces useful drag at high angles of attack.
aerofoil - flat plates produce a lot of drag at high angles of attack and stalls easily and suddenly but this can be good for slow, manoeuverable planes where predictability is more important than efficiency.

Control aerodynamics would be anything in the shape of the airframe that effects the handling such as:
area distribution - you need the majority of your area to lie behind the CG for stability. This is always considered for pitch but also applies to the yaw axis. The right balance of area gives a good compromise between stability and responsiveness. You can shift the CG after the plane's built but you can't usually change the side area or wing area easily if they have different optimum CG positions.
Also the area distribution will effect coupling between axes.
Control surfaces - The control surfaces need to be adequately large to provide the response you need. It might make sense to counterbalance them to reduce the strain on the servos by extending some control surface area forward of the hinge line.
Dihedral - The main purpose of dihedral is to turn yaw into roll and to eliminate roll when there's no sideslip. For aerobatics this sort of coupling is not usually wanted so I doubt you'd ever bother with dihedral for F3P.

I'm not sure if this is quite what you're after but I hope it helps.

Aidan

[matchlessaero]

Aidan, that was/is a very nice summary/explanation. :cool:

[perttime]

area distribution - you need the majority of your area to lie behind the CG for stability. This is always considered for pitch but also applies to the yaw axis. The right balance of area gives a good compromise between stability and responsiveness. You can shift the CG after the plane's built but you can't usually change the side area or wing area easily if they have different optimum CG positions.
Also the area distribution will effect coupling between axes.Somewhere, I read that too much fuselage area behind CG may actually make the rudder inefficient.

What about fuselage (and tail/rudder) area above and below a center line?

[fwilly]

Yup, and too much area in front of the CG can make it climb in KE without any rudder input. You can move the wings forward or back to get a plane to KE just right. Its almost like adjusting the CG, except you have to build a new plane every time you make an adjustment.

[Aio_1]

Somewhere, I read that too much fuselage area behind CG may actually make the rudder inefficient...
Yes, this is because you've got excessive stability. It's exactly the same as the elevator becoming less effective when you move the CG forward. It's all about the location of the CG.
The neutral point of a rectangular surface lies 25% from the leading edge. That means that if you locate the CG at this position the shape will be neutrally stable in the air. If you have a tailplane as on a conventional airplane this is additional area aft of the wing so the CG can be more than 25% back from the wing leading edge without losing stability but only because it's still ahead of the overall neutral point.
...What about fuselage (and tail/rudder) area above and below a center line?
If this is non-symetrical it will cause some coupling of yaw with roll and perhaps pitch also. For minimum coupling you want the thrust line, and CG to lie on a line which bisects the fuselage and rudder. However things are never completely symetrical because the plane needs an angle of attack to fly.
I'm speaking mostly from theory here so if anyone wants to jump in with rules of thumb or practical experiences feel free.

Aidan

[Marmitas]

With 3mm Depron, 3 Futaba 3110 servos, Rimfire 22M-1000 and ElectriFly BL-8 speed controler should weigh 6 to 6.5 oz.
If you do not have access to a wide bed plotter (or don't live near a Kinkos) use the tiled PDF file and print all the pages on letter size paper.
Send me a PM if you have any questions

[g_rod22x]

I´m hoping for "square" dimensions (fuse length same as wingspan) and at least 6" fuselage height at the highest point. ;)/Erik


Here is what you asked for. "Square" 32in X 32in^^^^^^^^^^^^ PLUMA
just print the files and start cutting!

[Clayton Wheaton]

This is my indoor plane of choice!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D By far the best flying foamy I have flown to date!!!!!!!!! There is a pic of it in my avatar. I’ve got them down to 5.5 ounces all up with batteries!!! (tp 2s 480 pl's) this thing is smooth and precise when you want it to be, and can do any 3d manuver you can think or dream up! :cool: the build is very easy and goes fast. If you have any questions I will be more than happy to help you make your pluma fly to its full potential!! :D

[Erik Johansson]

Here is what you asked for. "Square" 32in X 32in^^^^^^^^^^^^ PLUMA
just print the files and start cutting!

I was just offering my opinion. I´m very well setup when it comes to the very latest in indoor F3P planes. ;)

/Erik

[Trisquire]

.......I´m very well setup when it comes to the very latest in indoor F3P planes. ;)

/Erik
Erik, Do you have pictures? :)

Tom

[Erik Johansson]

Erik, Do you have pictures? :)

Tom

Not at the moment no... I´m in the building phase... going slooooow because the university is taking up some serious amount of time right now.

But once I get them done, I´ll show some pictures.

/Erik

[Marmitas]

Does anyone have the list of mandatory maneuvers for F3P?

[Jurgen Heilig]

Does anyone have the list of mandatory maneuvers for F3P?

Look here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=475676

:) Jürgen

[fredok]

ok guys please take a look at this

http://www.donuts-models.com/images/aito_v21.gif

3 times (3 different categories) french F3p champion this year

[ChrisBowker]

the aito looks VERY nice.

Any thought on whats better or if there is a performance issue between full fuse desgines and the classis + desgine and even the not as popular | desgine?

Chris

[SargeNZ]

Here's a couple of renders of a design that I am about to build for the first time as a CD-rom pattern-style.

[flieslikeabeagle]

I built and flew my first Formosa in summer 2005, and enjoyed it so much I got to thinking about how much fun a similar - but much lighter - model would be. I don't enjoy the way flat-plate wings fly, so I wanted an honest-to-goodness symmetrical airfoil.

Not long after, I found an old tired-looking Multiplex Stuntman kit sitting in a hobby store. The box was weathered from being on the shelves for a good year or more (it's a discontinued model), but a quick inspection showed the actual airframe looked intact and in excellent condition. I asked for and got a discount, and took home the kit.

For those who haven't seen the Stuntman, it's basically a moulded Depron eggshell - wings and fuse are thin, hollow Depron structures, and the tailfeathers are thin flat depron. The wing is fully symmetrical, just as I wanted, and the whole airframe is extremely light. The kit was originally designed to fly without rudder, using a heavy brushed Speed 280 geared motor and heavy NiCd cells, at an all-up weight of around 13 ounces. Here's a link: http://www.modelspot.com/mpx/stunt.htm

Edit: that link says the wingspan is 920 mm. This is not correct - it measures closer to 815 mm

I built my Stuntman with a Little Screamers CD-ROM motor, four tiny (sub 5 gm) servos, full four-channel control, and a small, light 10C, 480 mAh, 3S lipo pack. I used thin carbon fibre pushrods, and a little CF reinforcement to stiffen the weak horizontal stab. I didn't like the bare white foam or stickers, so I gave it a bright yellow paint job with acrylic paints, and applied some simple graphics with red trim tape.

Ready to fly, it weighs a hair over 8 ounces - not much more than half the original design weight! The little CD-ROM motor also packs quite a bit more power than the Speed 280 motor did. The first test flight told me the "Stuntman Light" was everything I had hoped for. It will slow down to about 5 mph and still keep flying, thanks to that nice thick airfoil and light weight; it will do every aerobatic trick I am able to fly (rolls, loops, inverted flight, inside and outside loops, knife edge, spins, stall turns, and so on are all easy); and it has enough power and control authority to climb out vertically, hover and do torque-rolls, which is the extent of my 3D skills. Basically it will do everything my old Formosa would do, but at less than half the speed, and down close and nearby where I can really enjoy it rather than fast and far away high in the sky.

The wing span is about 32 inches, the average chord about 8.5 inches, for a wing loading a little higher than 4 oz / sq ft.. For those lucky enough to not be dealing with imperial units, I think that's about 13 gm/dm^2 if I did my math right.

I'd say this model has only two downsides: first, it's discontinued. :( . Second, it is fragile - one crash will be the end of this foam eggshell. So far I have managed to avoid that one crash!

I really love this plane, and part of the reason I'm reading this thread is that one day I will inevitably turn my Stuntman into a pile of foam scraps, and that day I will be wanting a replacement that flies as well. So far I have not found a likely candidate - no flat plate foamy flies like this model, that's for sure!

-Flieslikeabeagle

[Aio_1]

I want to design and build myself an indoor plane in the next week or so to be ready when my new motor and cells arrive. I've still to decide between a flat plate bipe or a double skin monoplane. Either way I'll use a box fuselage.
The biplane format offers good wing stiffness at low weight even with 3mm flat plates (& a little carbon).
Alternatively I might try a monoplane and use 2mm depron to form a thin aerofoil (maybe 8%) around a carbon and depron spar.

The biplane config would fly slower but the monoplane is probably a little more robust and should fly smoother.

Aidan

[Jerry Combs]

Here is the design that I have come up with that I hope will allow me to fly the F3P pattern. All up weight is a little heavy at 8 ounces but I hope to get under 7 when I can afford a lighter motor.

Jerry

[Drewmotion]

It looks like most of the planes that the Germans are flying are profile/shock style fuselage. I seem to remember just a year ago that most were full fuse like the slow ride or Troll.

I know when I started flying my Troll, I noticed a huge increase in structual stiffness that made manuevers tighter and more precise, but there was a weight penalty for all that stiffness.

So what's the current opinion on full fuse vs. profile planes for indoor F3P?

Drew

[Nikolas]

Hallo Indoor Pattern fans!

What is your opinion on the Topmodel CZ Quasar as an indoor pattern plane? I know that is rather big and heavy but it has a very large wing area and is quite draggy, so it should have very slow characteristcs. Is it possible to perform the F3P schedule with this plane you think?

I downloaded some videos from Carvin and Indoor German championships and did not notice anyone flying this plane, that's why asking. I watched two flights of the AITO biplane by two differenet pilots the plane flies very well but I think the pilot makes the difference...

By the way I really liked the flight by Martin Mueller at the German Indoor champs flying a Gee Bee type of model, very nice and smooth flight!! Anyone having info about this model?

Looking forward to replies, thanks in advance.

Nick

[fwilly]

Jerry, that looks like it will be a great flying plane!!! Whats the span?

[Jurgen Heilig]

...
By the way I really liked the flight by Martin Mueller at the German Indoor champs flying a Gee Bee type of model, very nice and smooth flight!! Anyone having info about this model?

Looking forward to replies, thanks in advance.

Nick

Hi Nick,

The "Q" was just an experiment. The new F3P design of Martin Müller was flown by Armin Mangelmann in Carvin, and will give its public debut this weekend. The name will be MANTA.

:) Jürgen

[fredok]

the quasar is an old design
no more quasr in French Championships
The evolution finished last on the last French Championship
Manta finished on the middle scor board of the competition in Carvin
The first two planes were Aîtos
nobody uses it anymore in F3p pattern championships
German guys now use, once again, full fuse planes. The german champion flies on a Full fuse plane as well as the best german, Belgium, french Flyers.

As an example my Aïto Weights only 160g (5.63 Oz)

[Nikolas]

Thanks for the answers, what's the problem with Quasar? Was it used in the past for F3P?

What is the full fuse plane you' re talking about, Indian Spirit may be? Who is the German champ I just want to download his video.

Thanks,

Nick

[Jerry Combs]

fwilly,

The span is 33", length 37", 3 GWS Pico servos, GWS 4 channel receiver, BP 15 ESC, MTM 400XT, GWS 9x5, E-Tec 3s1p 450, weight 8 ounces. I am wanting to get a Westport 25t to replace the MTM 400XT which should save me over an ounce. I could save some weight by using spiderwire cross bracing instead of carbon rods. Now I just have to get over my locking up when I fly inside, I do fine outdoors.

Jerry

[fredok]

Hi Nikolas
The quasar has been used for F3p but not for long time. We found out it had problems flying on the edges. More than all, it is a heavy plane.
As long as we know, the quasar was the first F3p bipe available on the market over here, but, once again, it is an old design and many planes fly a lot better in pattern manouevers now. Full Fuse German champion is a Showrider.
Look at this website and you'll find out many things

www.donuts-models.com

[Jurgen Heilig]

Hi Nikolas
...
Full Fuse German champion is a Showrider.
...

The German Champion 2005 F3AI-A Class, Markus Wissinger, flies his own design Twister (see picture), but the trend still goes towards flat profile planes.

:) Jürgen

[ededge2002]

hi i found this amazing looking plane on this site any idea of plans? its called a futurion 4D.

http://forum.rcmarket.lt/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid=35

any other spece/details would be helpful.

Jürgen? any ideas?

ededge2002

[KillerAir]

Not that I am an indoor flyer, however I did pick up one of these at NSP. It is an EPP FAI Hall Avalon 800. With a heavier 39g motor( Multiplex BL-X 22-13) and a Larger tp 3s 730 pack she is at 7.75oz. I am sure with a lighter <30g motor and a small2s pack AUW of sub 7 oz would be achieved. I have a few outdoor flight on it now and find that the tracking and precision of this plane is fantastic. What I really like about this plane is the full foil wing. Absolutely no hunting and has a very wide speed range. With the 3s pack of 910's prolite she pulls 13.5A for 144watts on a 9x3.8sf prop. Way more than needed indoor but let me tell you it was very impressive. Here is a pic of the Avalon 800. More info can be found here
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=4243&PHPSESSID=16a70daf4ab431446afce5b4c30c785b

Killer

[coloradoz]

Have any of you seen this vid - it is an indoor pattern 'routine' from someone in Germany ... and this guy nails it.

http://194.109.150.81/web/upload/vdVechten/F3Ai-Aeng.wmv


Does anyone know what plane this guy is flying? Looks good to me.

[fwilly]

IIRC the plane is called the Shockwave

[perttime]

I have seen pictures of the Futurion at a couple of other sites too. Here is one:
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129
http://www.flyinggiants.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=528&page=1

Somewhere I got the idea that it might be kitted.

[Cees Kraaijeveld]

The 'Shockwave' is an all-depron F3p-model, quit popular here in the Netherlands. In the movie you can see the original small version, weight is 98 grams (3.46 oz.) There's also a larger version, 108%, mine weighs 127 grams (4.48 oz.) with Manuel Nübel's Doppelwhopper DW8/21 motor (see: www.slowflyworld.de) and 2 cells 300 mAh. Maybe even better is the 'BlingBling', mine is also 127 grams with Strecker 195.03 motor (www.rs-e-motoren.de) and 3 cells 300 mAh. Dutch pilots flew these designs at the german Championships this weekend. Also take a look at http://www.f3jscore.com/f3p/ left bar 'pilots and their models'.

[Trisquire]

.....mine is also 127 grams with Strecker 195.03 motor (www.rs-e-motoren.de) and 3 cells 300 mAh.......
Cees,

Have you had good experiences with the Strecker 195.03? Some fliers have reported problems with them.

Regards,
Tom

[Jurgen Heilig]

The most popular design this weekend at the qualification contest in Mülheim/Germany:

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Dang it!!! You European guys keep beating me to the punch! I was going to design an F3P Monoplane just like that. Oh well.

[fwilly]

Those are some nice looking planes!!

Any details on the airfoil and those holes in the trailing edges of the control surfaces?

[Jerry Combs]

fwilly,

I think those may be turbulators although I have never seen them used on control surfaces before. I find it interesting that the SFG's are canted inwards, an attempt to put more airflow over the tail surfaces?

Jerry

[3d_Crazy]

SFGs like that probably help a few things. 1st - KE performance, 2nd - more air over control surfaces, and 3rd - help create more drag. In KE it looks like the SFGs might be parallel with the horizon. Nice design.

[Aio_1]

....KE it looks like the SFGs might be parallel with the horizon....
If parallel with the horizon they would produce no lift and since the SFGs on opposing wings appear to be toed separately only the lower once would have a reduced AoA. This would mean most lift (and certainly most drag) would be produced by the upper wing.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Since they are behind the CG, and also toed out they will also add some yaw stability in straight flight.

[SargeNZ]

For better yaw stability wouldn't they be toed IN?

[Jeff Pfeifer]

They are behind the cg.

[Larry3215]

Hmmm Looks to me like they would de-stabilize yaw - even behind the CG.

As the plane yaws, the trailing wing will have greater drag and the leading wing will have less drag. Looks to me like they will tend to increase the yaw.

Might make knife edge flight so it needs less or no rudder?

Larry

[David Kyjovsky]

Looking back, I realized that it is already quite a line of indoor aerobatic planes that I designed. Let me show you few of them...

The first one was the Visik in 2002. The idea was to make finally something capable of recognizable indoor roll, loop etc, and mainly to learn torque rolling... Which it did quite well, by the way. The wingspan was 80 cm, AUW some 200g without batteries (at that time, there were no special lipos available... rather some 3-4C ones from mobile phones, 900mAh or so, 2s pack was about 50g).

[David Kyjovsky]

The Microbat: in 2003, was designed to fly in the second ever indoor aerobatic competition in my country. It could do nice loops, stall turns, the roll was a bit barrel-ish (maybe due to my lack of rudder skills at that time). Again about 200g without batteries, but had a much better 2s pack of E-tech 700s. I was proud of the hollow EPP wing...

[David Kyjovsky]

In 2003 we decided to give it a try at the German Championships for the first time. I was not sure what to take with me, so I took all 4 planes I had at that time: 2 Microbats, the 2Cool and a little (70 cm) experiment called Savage (4mm deron wings, full EPP fuse, terrible-by todays standards-180 g or so). At the spot I realized that the Savage is probably the best suited for the task (as always in Germany, the ceiling was lower than what we have been used to). I maidened it outdoors, 2 days before the competition, where I placed 9th. The 2 Cool was a bit big for the gym, but a good 3D plane. Later kitted by FreeAir. As with the Microbat, they changed the looks quite a bit (not to my liking).

[David Kyjovsky]

The Magpie: a bipe designed to be competitive in the "old" sequence. The loop, roll, half reverse cuban 8 etc, you know what I mean. Did pretty well, but was 1 year too late... It won the SlowFlyer 2004 competition in Prague, but right after that the "Expert" sequence was changed to the one with top hat, rolling circle etc. There it was not so good any more. Overall a nice plane that I liked very much, good 3D performance, 80cm wingspan, a bit heavy at 240g.

[David Kyjovsky]

After seeing that the Magpie is a bit too fast for the new Expert sequence I decided to make a similar plane with lower wing loading. There the Magpie 2 was conceived.. did much better and I took it to the German Championships 2004 and placed 7th. Airfoiled EPP wings, the fuse was built-up with a thin EPP skin. AUW 200g with 2s 340 Kokams, the plane flew slow and smooth.

[David Kyjovsky]

The Inferno was designed for the Formoplast company. They make "everything depron" and can press nice curved parts. It was originally meant to be a 3D park flyer, but after getting few extra fuselages from them, I decided to use the nice fuse and make a competitive version with 3 mm depron wings and some more weight savings. So the Linear came into existence... and I took it to the competition in Carvin 2004 and placed 10th (after zeroing my best flight for a canopy that fell off in flight).

[raymon]

The most popular design this weekend at the qualification contest in Mülheim/Germany:
http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/1/6/3/6/748778.thumb?qTu6oJVgGJShqTRhnaOaBmp5BQp8BQgcoJSaM FHlEzcjMJp=


hello

there is a drawing of this model
what is the specifications of the model?

I do my F3P with the ShockWave

servo`s 2x 3.7 gram 1x 6gram
motor 2c-20-310 19 gram
3 grams ontvangertje
2s 450 etec 25 gram
gws 8X4,3
en 127 grametjes


http://foto.modelbouwforum.nl/albums/userpics/10087/ShockWave.jpg

:)

[David Kyjovsky]

At Carvin 2004, I was impressed by the performance of the Evolution, a plane designed by BPLR. After coming back home, I decided to test if the shape of the wing might make any difference. I did not copy the Evolution, but I happily admit where I got my inspiration when I draw the shape of the wing. The Focus is a bit smaller though, and probably lighter with profile EPP fuse strenghtened by light carbon pipe. 80cm, 3 mm depron wings, the AUW is about 155g. One of the best planes I ever had, flew to 8th place at the German Championships 2005. Also morphed it into the Crossbow, where the fuse is flat 3mm depron, torsionally reinforced only by kevlar lines (a bit like a kite). The Focus is still 100% competitive.

[David Kyjovsky]

In 2005, I was approached by the MS Composit company to design a kit for them - a shockyish monoplane and a bipe. The bipe is here now (the shocky too - it is the "Roller"), the Endorfine. It has a "full" fuse made of 3 mm depron, 80 cm wingspan, some 155 - 160 g AUW. At Carvin 2005 I used it to end up 8th... the plane was again very "fresh" and not set up to perfection. At the Prague SlowFlyer 2006 competition I had a customized version, to finish 2nd.