GWS Islander as VTOL,only a dream right now but soon!

[MustangAce17]

My plan is to turn a GWS Islander into a VTOL type twin with geared Flatout motors and todd models counter-rotating props. Im still thinking about how i want to do this but i will start simple with the motors vertically stationary and maybe tilt them forward a few degrees all depends if it flies or not. I might even do a clear canopy which will redude weight and look nice at the same time.No gyros planned just Rudder,elevator,throttle,ailerons.looking back on my flight time with the v22 on g2 i think this wont be to difficult and i would love to see this all come together soon. The idea so far is to chop off the up curved wingtips and glue the gearboxes straight onto a piece of ply on the end of the wing. I made a few drawings awhile ago but recently have gained a ton of interest into this.

[MustangAce17]

by the way any input is accepted and i plan to start on this in a few weeks(gotta collect parts)

[rdresch]

Lets see some drawings. If you don't rotate the power pods how will you controll pitch? I think you will need gyros but Ive been wrong as many times as I'm right
Rudy

[MustangAce17]

i dont know if i have a way top upload drawings unless i do them in paint but then theyd be very crude. Im now thinking about rotating the motors using elevon mixing if possible

[WingsofEagles]

I have an islander. It's a super plane but the main wing keeps coming off. I am going to try another way to attach it other than the cheap, let's glue a piece of plastic on to styrofoam and then put a screw through it. Any ideas??

Brian <><
GWS Pico Cub, Tiger Moth, Islander

[MustangAce17]

on my first islander the wing method worked fine

[MustangAce17]

Ive been doing sketches and im gonna make a model of the rotating motor tonight with a cheap gws geared motor and 9gr 24 ounce torque servo. Ill tell ya how it goes later

[MustangAce17]

well got great news! my motor system works and isnt very complex either got a few tilts in both ways(back and forth) and still no problems. This is turning out great so far and i have the islander slope kit coming thursday! gonna order the counter rotating props through todds models to

[TooSlow]

lets see some pictures

[MustangAce17]

ok ill post some pics in a few found out im off Sat! now i can get into this

[MustangAce17]

heres a video of the tilting process to be hooked up under elevon mixing(2) used a S75 servo but going to try the 9 gr 24 ounce Hurricane from jgrc.biz now

[MustangAce17]

sorry vid wont upload ill try putfile.com and post the link here

[MustangAce17]

heres the pics

[v22chap]

Mustang
Great work ,,I also have an Islander setting in the attic waiting for mini units to go on it ...I liked the idea of having the plane already done and flying so you didn't have to reinvent the wheel !!!! ;) :rolleyes: :cool: It also looks a little like Bells civilan version the 698.

It all sounds and looks good , although I don't think you will need that high of CG on the motor ,,I might be wrong ,,but according to what Vtolman has done the motor right on top of the pivot point works and is easier to keep under control than a higher CG like you have.
Keep it going though ,,you never know what new information you may find until you have tried it. :D :D
Larry

[MustangAce17]

hey Larry this was just a test to see how it would work and im glad to see you here. The motor length will be shortened because i just basically cut a length of stick for this one.ive found that the s75 doesnt hold up as well as the Hurrican servo which i suspected. Glad to see the motor system working though and will be getting the Islander by the weekend and start on it overthe weekend. Do u think im gonna need the counter-rotating props? if not ill just use regular gws sfs. The control system is gonna be like this if possible to program and slave. When elevator is pulled either way the motors will tilt simaultaneously and when aileron is pulled the motors will tilt to opposite sides basically using elevon mixing.

[v22chap]

I know that it can be done without the counter rotating , as I did this engine vector idea back about 7 yrs ago with IC engines and no couter rotationing props and was able to control the yaw ,but if at all possible use counter R .as it will free up so much more power to hover with..,then you can carry more weight .So many VTOL's can hover ,,but would not be able to carry a scale fuse even.
On the control ideas ,,I think you want to put the rudder on the mix with elevator so the motors tilt opposite directions to control the yaw and put the ail on a mix with the esc's so that the bird can maintain a level hover by varing the motor RPM .. this is the way Vtolman did his and also the same principal that I use on my V-22 ...only it is the collective that I vary to keep the wings level.
Keep going man
Larry

[MustangAce17]

ok im trying to figure out what your saying.Basicaly when i hit elevator the rudders also engage and when i hit aileron one motor speeds up?

[MustangAce17]

what i was thinking is that when i tilt the motors it would stabilize hover kinda like a colective on a heli?

[MustangAce17]

so do u guys think this will fly? i sure hope so

[v22chap]

No,no.. You have to have a " V tail mixer " between rudder and elevator and two servos ,,one controlling the right motor and one controlling the left motor ..so that both motors tilt F- orward / B- ack with elevator stick .. one motor tilts F and the other B when you move your rudder stick. This controls the yaw / pitch axis.

The roll axis takes a similar mix ( of the motor RPM and aileron ) to control altitude and levelness of the bird side to side .This is a complicated bird ,,,even in hover mode.
Even in hover mode you still have to control all 4 axis to make it hover ,,,well atleast any length of time. ;) :D
Larry

[v22chap]

Take a look at this thread ,,,the 5 post down and study the illustrations of how the real V-22 controls and you probably will see it better , In fact it will help if you print the pictures out so you can see them all together ,as it is really hard to picture or discribe and then you start adding in the fact that you have to shut off heli controls when you go into airplane mode and it really starts to get confusing .... just ask Rudy and Joe.


Tilt rotor controls (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456004)
And yes it should fly ,,but it will be a hand full and need some gyro's and mixers.There is another thread on this type bird that would be good to follow also ,,just in case you have missed it .... there seems to be a lot of guys starting this type and especially since Vtolman has had so much success with his.
Vtolman's project (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=440470)
I wish I could move this whole thread over to this VTOL board as it is very good and will get missed in the tandem rotor section.
Towards the end there are diagrams of the electric lay out you need to control your type of bird.
Larry

[Tuner]

If you need any help let me know. I can help you with the tilt design if needed.

Counter rotating props are the way to go but hard to find. I use MicroHeli Blades from the Lama or a Coaxial Micro Helicopter. Unfortunately you need to machine a yolk to attach this to motor.

I fully recomend you drop the the gear box and go straight to an AXI gold motor another good motor I like for this is PJS. Direct Drive will help considerably in weight efficiency.
APC SlowFlyer props work best for VTOL in my experience unfortunately most of this is lost with having to Vector the engines thrust to counteract the torque unless APC wants to make me a custome 14.4 counter rotating prop :).
Lower RPM with Longer blades help when hovering in my experience.
Lower Pitch Props also help though the 10x4 is great.

This project looks very doable and I thnk for the fun of it I might do something like this or build a VTOL-Stick?

Good Luck!

[MustangAce17]

thanks guys for all the help but please allow me to clear a few things up. First of all, i have found the counter-rot. props and theyre on order and the slope kit should be here tom. Im sticking to my original plan and using the original motors for cost(not rich) and will switch later if needed. Im not looking for full transition but just to stabilise a hover and forward flight. I think my control sytem will work and im very experienced at 3d type flying andhave theskills to control this thing in a hover i would think. I understand how the v-22 flies and this is only loosely based on it actually it will look different. I will switch to brushless if need be though i want to keep it simple.

[MustangAce17]

still trying to upload the vid http://media.putfile.com/vtol-vid-1

[TonySR8510]

I made a vtol aircraft from the scratch. However i abandon it. the whole wing i.e., twin engine is tilted achieving only 87 degrees using a servo futaba 3003. my transmitter is hitec eclipse 7 so when i flip the toggle switch to channel 5 (heli mode) it will tilted to the maximum of 87 deg. with your simple approach design it will only tilt approximately between 30 to 35 degrees. Sorry... this is just a positive critcs to your design.

[MustangAce17]

like i said im not looking for 90-degrees.Going to get my plane tonight though and motors

[MustangAce17]

well guys a change of money issues(refunding my buddy) led to a great increase in performance. Im now going to run twin rimfires and thunderbird 9 esc's and a 2 cell 1320 prolite

[MustangAce17]

well guys the counter-rotating props are here and im fixing to set-up a Rimfire with one on my tilt-motor setup just gotta find the right esc and mod the eflite stick mount to accept the rimfire.

[v22chap]

wooo that was fast ,,hope they produce the power you need .
Larry

[MustangAce17]

from my little running of one Rimfire with counter last night on a 1320 prolite 2 cell the results were great. so tonight i might be able to set them both up but itll be later because i don't get off work until 8.

[MustangAce17]

well havent been working on much lately due to work but tonight im goin to try and setuip both rimfires together with the 1320 prolitew 2 cell and counter-props

[MustangAce17]

well i have an update!. Wing has been cut to accept tilt motors and i figured out where to place carbon for extra wing strength(needed). also horizontal tail has been cut out (ends) and used the existing elevator just a little modified(sanded endd to accept vert. fins)

[MustangAce17]

well i lost one of my bearings,but im gonna look for it so i can make the second motor pivot and hopefully take this thing pretty far by the end of tonight. Im gonna try the elevon mixing thing to see how it controls then go from there. i have an Optic6 i can use to mix controls together but im wondering if i should even make the surfaces move since the motors will act as ailerons and i still will have rudder and elevator. Ill keep you guys informed on progress.Sorry about the pics only have a webcam since im saving up for a car.

[MustangAce17]

please give feedback as i can really use it

[MustangAce17]

v22chap(larry) please add your comments,ok gettin on to the vtol now

[MustangAce17]

yesssss bearing found and onto second motor

[v22chap]

Sorry ,,been away from the puter most of last night and all this morn and have to head out again to pick up the step kids from their dad;s

I wouldn't worry about making the ailerons of the airplane work now as you're right the motors will act as your ailerons to keep the bird level in a hover and even up to the 45 degree transition point . so just worry about hovering right now. Do the mix for the elevator / rudder ..to control pitch / yaw axis and the motors to aileron to do the alitude and roll axis .
See ya in about another 2 hrs ,,,good luck ,,I hope to come back and see that it is hovering and a video of it .... ;) :p :D
Larry

[MustangAce17]

well idk about 2 hrs lol but soon!

[MustangAce17]

ok wel at full throttle(13 amps) the motors barely tilt

[MustangAce17]

new pics

[MustangAce17]

well it partially hover(falls backward) and its just taped together!

[v22chap]

It sounds like you might have the plane /heli balanced tail heavy.This type of craft needs to balance dead on .
Larry

[MustangAce17]

how would u go about balacing it?

[MustangAce17]

well here it as it sits right now

[v22chap]

looks like it is all ready to go.... :cool:

If you can move the battery around to help the balance or worse case add weight to nose ... best to not add weight ,,but maybe extend the nose or shorten the tail section as I am sure that your tail heavy ...as this beast is that way ,,if built to scale.That is the reason I lengthened my nose 3 " and moved my heli cg back 3/8" ,,which is the last thing you can do ,,,move the heli pivot point around to help ,,but you have to watch that to make sure it still balances in airplane mode ...or slightly nose heavy .
Larry

[MustangAce17]

ok i guess this thread came off the wrong way.This airplane does not transition but only varies the motors to keep a hover. After several attempts to try and "fly" this thing in a controlled environment (livingroom) and it seems very semi-stable like it might hover if given right inputs. As i stand my ailerons(needed) are on the rudder stick and elevator/aileron controls the motor pivoting. It seems really weird to me. but with mixing(yet) its the best i could think of

[v22chap]

Nope ,,it came over right ,,I'm just mixed up a little as I am following these two threads that are about the same and confusing them ,,,what with all the other stuff I have going right now. :rolleyes: :)

like it might hover if given right inputs

That it might do....If you can move your rudder stick mix to the motor pod control and your aileron stick mix to the motor esc's mix ... in other words .. left stick should control motor RPM (up and down together ---altitude) and variable motor movement (one motor back while the other goes forward ----heli yaw --like the tail rotor on a pod and boom)

The right stick should control pitch axis (both motors forward and back---heli elevator) and variable motor RPM ---(one up ,,one down ---roll control --aileron to keep the wings level ) The gyro on the aileron control should go in before the mixer on the aileron channel and the gyro for the pitch should go in before the mixer on the elevator channel.I have a picture chart some where that will show this setup ,,if I can find it I will post it...it came from another thread on here.I have to get to work right now
Larry

[v22chap]

Here is the control layout schematic that I was talking about... this may help even though he is using 3 gyro's .
Good luck
Larry
http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/zips/14579/controlayout.jpg

[MustangAce17]

getting better at controlling this thing

[MustangAce17]

gonna attach the lg today and see if i can get out of ground effect that way since it semms to be a major factor

[MustangAce17]

as it stands right now (at school right now) i have totally changed my view of thinking this would be simple i was wrong although it gets better every time i experiment with it. The motors onb the rudder channel pull the whole plane around in like a second! this is much more authority than i thought but should prove to work well. Im just using a standard 6 ch radio right now so mixing isnt possible right now only d/r but i do have a flap and retract switch. I can go forward and backward and left and right but im still trying to determine the right cg which is getting closer but not in the sweet spot yet. This project has proven to be very fun and educating so i will keep at it and see what happens. Thanks alot everyone and especially Larry(v22chap)

[v22chap]

Yes the bird is a real challenge ...wait till you try to do one that makes the full transition :eek: :D
Glad you are having fun with the project and glad that I got to help you some.
Keep us posted when you do more
Larry

[MustangAce17]

ok i will charging batt as we speak to do more testing lol IM HAVIN FUNNNN

[MustangAce17]

well took her down to the LHS today and she almost flew! need a conventional elevator and be able to get the motors to 45 degrees forward but it wasnt bad and a few really though it was neat. Gonna try apc 10.3.8 sf props instead of the crs since their more efficient.

[v22chap]

Good to hear it is making people excited .... and you proud... keep it going

[MustangAce17]

welldid more testing and almost hovered under control! this thing is fun to just mess around with to pick my brain lol im gonna charge the batts again so i can test out the elevator

[MustangAce17]

well im gonna add the elevator and hok the motors into the flap channel to see what i can do. I think this will cause it to fly but not toally sure,only time will tell

[MustangAce17]

Yesterday,i had a few chances to get airborne (even in wind0 and i got flying forward but quickly fell backwards landing upside down. There was a guy taking video so if i can find it i will post it and show yall the potential. Im going to try to make a 3 way y-harness and hook the elevator in with the tiliting motors,so when i push down the levator goes down and when i pull back it goes up. Simple enough and i think itll fly then but only time will tell.

[v22chap]

Looking great ,,glad it seems to be doing better ,,vid pleasssssssse. ;) :D
Larry

[MustangAce17]

ill have a vid as soon as i can

[MustangAce17]

heres some video from last Sat. at ORCAwww.orlandorc.org/video_files/e-Osprey.wmv .

[v22chap]

Hey ..looks like your still going on it .. just need more control and probably more power looks like.
What is your control setup right now on this vid??
Looks like it might have way to much roll control ,,,do you have expo on your TX??
Keep at it.
Larry

[MustangAce17]

no expo yet as im not set up on the Optic 6 right now. The spin you saw was intentional since i couldn't get it to fly i figured id try to spin it just for kicks. the motors are Rimfires swinging 10.3.8 apc sfs on a 3s 1550 tanic plenty of power,i just wasnt trying to do much that day and only gave about half power

[Osprey WannaB]

Wat Remotes do most people use on the VTOL's?? How many Chanels are needed?? :confused:

[MustangAce17]

right now im just using a 6 ch and an external(not in transmitter) v tail mixer

[v22chap]

osprey
as Mustang said ,,you can start with just 6 ,,but if you'er going full VTOL ,,you're probably sooner or later going to need a 10 channel. It just depends on what you want out of a VTOL aircraft.
Now we have a company (Tech Model Products --Joe Orlando) that is working with some of us to make an onboard mixer just for VTOL's.It will hopefully do it all us VTOL guys need on only a cheap 6 channel radio or so .. When we get it all sorted out and running I will try to remember and post it here.

[MustangAce17]

Thankyou Larry,i could use something like this. Tonight im going to make some plates for the servos to glue on to the wings and screw the servos onto those in order to keep everything more precise and straight,i also have to make a new motor stick and redo it so it can as accurate as the other side. i think with the 3 way y-harness it will take off and fly(elevator electronically linked to motor servos). I have already taken off asphault a few times successfully just havent been able to hover

[MustangAce17]

well i wonder(after reading the what it takes to get started thread) if my cg may be to high. I havent messed with my bird since last weekend but my battery sits on the bottom of the nose and the motors poivot point is pretty high. hmmm

[v22chap]

Yep ,,that is my guess that your CG on the motor pods is way to high.It won't look scale ,but I think it will make the control less sensitive since you don't have expo to help out .At any rate it wouldn't hurt to try a lower set of motor mounts.

[Terry S]

I dont know if I missed it but are you trying to build a VTOL without gyros ?

Terry

[MustangAce17]

yes and i have built it just havent done much with it since last weekend watch the video

[MustangAce17]

well im finally back to working on the VTOL. Im going to engineer more precise motor tilt supports and wire a 3 way harness to link forward and backward stick(elevator) with the functional elevator. Ive been working alot lately(2-9) everyday so ive been exhausted when i get home so didnt feel like messing with planes. im also going to make servo mouting plates and glue them to the wings so the servos are fully secure.

[Osprey WannaB]

Good work Mustang,
I have alls started working on my project, i wan constucting the whole thing myself and the only bought things i'll be using are the electrics and the materials.. I'v already made one of my Rotor heads and am starting on my swash plates, I will post more about my project i a new thread once I get abit more dun:P okay now i realy like wat mustang has done here so i hope to her from u.
Best Wishes On The Project,
Jamie

[MustangAce17]

hey Jamie glad you could join us! this project has been massive and very educating and i did do some minor work today but only attached one servo securely on a plate and glued it to the wing but thats as far as i got(school project and flew airfoilz Yak lol) but have a few days off work this week to get farther along. will post once i mod the controls(elevator in sync with motors via 3 way harness)

[MustangAce17]

well guys im pulling this bird from the back burner in a few days.Ive been building prop planes most recently a SU-31 and before that a Lancair EP. gonna see about the elevator tied in with the motors and if it helps or not. will update on progress

[MustangAce17]

the birs is oficially back as my main project again

[MustangAce17]

well after consectutive tries it just won't work how i planned and i'm abandoning the project unless i can get some serious help and knowledge locally and not many around here know about these things

[Terry S]

Gyro's ?

Terry

[v22chap]

Sorry ,,to hear that ,,but yes it is hard as there are not to many guys into VTOLS ... maybe you can give it another try next winter or if your like me ,,,things will come to mind and you will be back at it in a month or so..... good luck and have fun at what you do. ;) :) :D
Larry

[MustangAce17]

actually larry Im already back at it! lol it gets sooo frustrating sometimes but after seeing your projects and others i just can't bring myself to give up plus i want something no one else has(yet) and on my Optic 6,servos completly stable(move when i give yaw control but will get right tonight) and gyros i see this bird flying sooo IM BACKKKK lol heres a few new pics,hs-56 servos now

[MustangAce17]

im thinking of shortening the motor stick length

[MustangAce17]

but that will have to wait until tonight due to work

[Tuner]

What kind of props are you using and are they counter rotating.
Sorry Im just now getting into this thread. Looks good.

Scott

[v22chap]

shortening the motor sticks is what I have said all along.I would make them so short that the props just clear the wing by only a couple inches ,,maybe only 1 " That is what VTOLman did with his.. the motors actually mounted to the cross shaft.You have way to much moment with those long sticks and unless you have a tx with expo ,,they are going to move to fast and over control things.Making them shorter with lessen the movement and not make it so much like a fishing pole effect when you make controls.
Good luck and welcome back already ;) :D
Larry

[MustangAce17]

the props are apc 10 3.8 SF'S but i do have the counter rotating ones i ordered from todd's models awhile back so i could give them another try. Today was my bday(18th) so i went and flew my Lancair, and my friends velocity and had a good time and then came back and my other battery was charged so i showed him the vtol and he was giving me ideas sort of like vtolmans set-up. I busted an h5 56 servo very easily and im not impressed by them much at all. i guess at half throttle the motors put off alot of torque and my idea needs either some tweaking or redesign. what do you all think? besides gyros i still have to shorten the motor sticks but im trying a few things

[v22chap]

Well now that you asked ,, I would move the servos in to the middle of the wing and let the whole cross shaft move the motors ,,,so that they don't take the abuse of hitting the ground when you tip over and such.On the wing tip they are the first thing to hit if you land on the wing tip .This alone would strip gears.

I would also use higher torque servos ,,,some thing like Hobbico CS-35 mini BB torque-55oz-in or hitec 81 or 85 metal gear servos ...they are in the upper 50 to 60 oz area and the 56 is only 17 oz to start out with and you are dealing with a lot of torque when you have that motor running and bouncing around on the ground.

I would mount the motor right to the cross shaft with not hardly any arm on it. Just enough to clear the top of the wing when moving it back and forth.If you look at some of the park flyer ones that are working they are low CG

Definately get some gyros of some type.

You need some low pitch props so you can get some RPM's up to have hover control//// maybe some MPI MAXX PRODUCTS counter rotating 10 X 4.5 slow flyer props.

Hope this helps some and keep at it ,,it sometimes takes a lot of time to get it just right and these things can be funny about the setups.
Good luck and keep at it.
Larry

[MustangAce17]

Thanks a million Larry, can you post video of your v-22 please. The way I set out to do this was going to be different but my lack of helis has taken this bird into another more complex level.The props i ordered are the exact ones you mentioned and i was told to use the 10 3.8's but by someone who has never done a vtol before but is very respectable in electrics. Before i buy another islander kit i will 1. shorten the motor sticks,2. change out the busted hs-56(which i bought to make it lighter but still have the torque),3. then proceed onto the other design like you mentioned

[MustangAce17]

ok how many gyros should i use and what do you think of these

Futaba G190 Micro Piezo Gyro or GWS Pg-03 thanks

[v22chap]

You'll need gyro's on the yaw and roll axis for sure ...pitch you can probably get by without.
It sounds like the GWS Pg-03 is ok to use with this setup from what Gary says.They are cheaper than the CSM 560 SL micro smart lock gyro which is in the 195.00 area from fxaeromodels.com.
Here is a post by Kingsley on the subject ...
Regarding my (Kingsley) Twin Electric Vtol setup
***GYROS***
Talking to an old friend who is a UAV VTOL builder in Florida who has also used the old arcamax gyros as me, recommends the CSM SL560 for PITCH control, weighs 11 grams and is programmable to match exactly what my old non heading hold arcamax PEG 1000 gyros does and some more.
(However I don’t know what settings are best on this CSM SL560)
US$195 from
http://www.fxaeromodels.com/product...roducts_id=1588
For ROLL I don’t know if a special gyro is needed, as my gain is quite average like 50%
I have not tested many gyros out on roll, as I always used old spare arcamax gyros.
--- To test roll responce---
Hold the wing with both hands and get someone to power up to hover, and if it oscillates rapidly or hunts, lower the gain, if it rolls uncontrollable to either side, increase the gain.
When correctly adjusted (if this gyro is suitable) the wing will hover rock steady and you will notice a distinct force required to push down one side of the wing, and it surprisingly fights back revving up one motor to maintain a level wing.
At the maximum gain suitable it will only very slightly oscillate, and only occasionally but not continuous.
Warning *****I don’t recommend anyone test this by themselves, or try to hover on the first test without the model being held or tethered as it will literally smash itself to pieces in an uncontrollable exponentially increasing rapid oscillation.
Kingsley

[MustangAce17]

thanks again larry gonna test out the counter props soon

[MustangAce17]

tested the counters last night and they are MUCH better and yaw is almost eliminated. called the lhs today and ordered two GWS pg-03 gyros ror yaw and roll.

[MustangAce17]

ok i finally glued the tail back on my bird with Gorilla glue last night and cleaned out my "hanger" so i have more space for planes gona work on adding the gyros tonight

[v22chap]

Well it sounds like your making progress ...hope it all proves to be worth it.
Good Luck
I did get a little work on my gears this weekend and hope to take some pix in a few days.
Larry

[MustangAce17]

great Larry! sounds like your workin to i have about 2 hours before i gotta be to work so im gonna work on my bird some. will post new pics

[MustangAce17]

well time for an update. the is now fited with the two pg-03 gyros which need adjustment once i figure out what it needs and control seems to be better. I can now liftoff nearly vertical for a second until i think whats called "hunting" takes over. since i have no prior heli set-up experience im only guessing but this continues to be a very fun and interesting project. My next step is to make a profile version to figure out the best control set-up and motor pivot length.

[MustangAce17]

IT FLYSSSSSSSSS!!!!! the gyros did the trick! wow im absolutely stoked!

[Osprey WannaB]

Well thats great news Mustang. I realy hope one day a vtol will be avaliable to buy in a kit :D It can only happen in dreams:)
Good luck with the project,
Jamie

[v22chap]

Jamie ,, that is great ,,glad the gyro 's did the trick for ya.

I realy hope one day a vtol will be avaliable to buy in a kit

Now you have the "REAL" VTOL dream as that is what most of us want too. :D

Keep going man and have fun along the way
Larry

[MustangAce17]

hey u meant Kyle lol but ill forgive you,will get video and try to post it within a few days. I've only got airborne in the living room right now so I'm yet to try it outside

[v22chap]

Kyle
Sorry ,,to many people to keep straight and trying to be fast at work and not get caught by the boss :eek: ;)
Larry