New wings for my Aquila XL (on the way)

[ferincr]

Finally I can get to work on the "updating" the airfoil of the AXL.
I went for the AG34-10% for the main pannels and for the wing tips I started with the same but finishing with the AG37.
I also decided to add ballast tubes since the idea is to be able to fly in more windy days with these (hopefully) faster wings.
There is something that still harrasing my mind, should I put flaps on this or just spoilers would do? :confused: :confused:
I noticed the spoilers are not good at reducing speed and I calculated that I'll be able to put as much as 3lbs. of ballast on her.
It's kind of scaring thinking in a 6.5lbs + ballast model aproaching solid land at full speed. Any thoughts???
Here are the pics so far.
Fernando

[little flyer]

looks GREAT, thoughts for slowing her down.. flaps?

[Wylie Shaw]

Mate I'd go with Flaps, due to they are more versatile than spoilers, you camber the flaps for lift, reflex the flags for more speed, and when you want to slow down 90 deg of down flap will slow it down real nice.....just install strong servoes for each.....


Best Regards,


Wylie S.

[Mike K]

just install strong servoes for each.....

Best Regards,

Wylie S.

So... What would be a good recommended flap servo?

Regards.
Mike K.

[ferincr]

Now, the other question is:
According to what I read is better for the flaps to go for as long as the TE as possible so I guess long and thin flaps is better than short ones with the same surface area.
Would the thickness of the TE (1 1/2in) and the lengh of the main pannels (43in) be enough? or should I give them some more cord? the total span of the plane is 150in.
As for servos all i have are Hitec's HS81MG and HS125MG.
Fernando

[AndreyT]

So... What would be a good recommended flap servo?

I normally use Hitec servos for everything, but specifically for flaps I found that Futaba S3102 works extremely well. It has very good torgue and metal gears. I couldn't find anything comparable from Hitec in this size.

Correction: apparently S3102 uses a mix of metal and nylon gears.

[ferincr]

I normally use Hitec servos for everything, but specifically for flaps I found that Futaba S3102 works extremely well. It has very good torgue and metal gears. I couldn't find anything comparable from Hitec in this size.
Wow! I took a look at them and they do look like the ones to use.
I wish I hadn't buy all those hs81 and hs125 now.

[Kalim3ro]

Where do you get the plans for the Aquila...
I always see people building it here at RC Groups....
did you buy a kit or got the plan from the net?

[ferincr]

For the standard Aquila you can buy the plans from RC Modeler ( I think).
I have an Aquila Grande that I bought the kit 20+ years ago and an Aquila XL that I bought a short kit from DC Hobby before they closed down.
Fernando

[Esprit2]

Fernando,

Are you just building additional wings for windy days? Or did you suffer an involutary conversion and these new wings are replacements?

Regards,
Tim

[Esprit2]

Snip ...and an Aquila XL that I bought a short kit from DC Hobby before they closed down.
Has anyone heard an update on when Aerosphere plans to get going? (that's the name of the company that bought most of the Dream Catcher Hobby product line). It would be nice to have access to the Aquila XL kit again.

Regards,
Tim

[ferincr]

Fernando,

Are you just building additional wings for windy days? Or did you suffer an involutary conversion and these new wings are replacements?

Regards,
Tim
Just new wings to keep building skills up and a bit more adrenaline in the system while flying.
I still have the original wings.
I've been out of the country for two months and then I got caught in high season for my job so I've been craving for some balsa dust.
Anyway is too windy now for flying (at least the wings I have).
Fernando

[ferincr]

Has anyone heard an update on when Aerosphere plans to get going? (that's the name of the company that bought most of the Dream Catcher Hobby product line). It would be nice to have access to the Aquila XL kit again.

Regards,
Tim

This is the last I received from them:


Hi Everyone,

We’ve made substantial progress since our last update and we’re excited about launching the first phase of our website in about six weeks.
When we purchased the rights and tooling to manufacture these aircraft we did not get a running production line, much documentation, or even a list of suppliers. This has made it difficult to judge the scope of work and the time required to bring the planes back to market, or where to start for that matter.
We’ve figured out how to manufacture the majority of parts for several products. We’re now refining the manufacturing process, pulling everything together so that we can consistently supply the best quality kits available.
The website is almost ready for release and although it’s relatively basic, it’s fully functional, including a secure shopping cart. We have a temporary web page at www.aerosphere.aero but there’s not much to look at other than our logo, so don’t get too excited before you visit. We’ll send you another e-mail when the real website goes live.
We plan on releasing two products shortly after the website is launched, most likely the Olympic 650 sailplane and the Q-TEE power plane. Additional products will follow as quickly as possible.
We apologize again for not being able to release planes sooner; we certainly appreciate your patience.

Happy New Year!



Bill

[ferincr]

Well I decided to go ahead and cut the TEs of the wings in order to add flaps.
Unfortunatelly I did that before reading the Spoileron Question thread and it seems that may be this wasn't the best idea.
Anyway, after thinking for quite a while how to cut down the loses and save the wings I came up with the decision of cutting some more of them to make the flaps 1/5 of the total chord, that way I keep the wings I just need to make the flaps from scratch which is taking me to another question (what a surprise!!!)
I've seen that some wings have diagonal (I think they are called geodesic) ribs that give the wing more rigidity to torsion.
Would it be a good idea to add them to the flaps to make them stiffer or there is some other way to achieve this?
What if I sheet them with the grain at 45 degree angle crossed top and bottom?
Any help?
Fernando

[Tim Jonas]

Nice looking wings. Does it get any better than an Aquila? I got one on Ebay last year, and I'm in the process of finishing it. Last one I built was in 77.

[ferincr]

Does it get any better than an Aquila? .
Hopefully this, an Aquila with faster wings
Thanks Tim,
I love those birds too and I hope I didn't ruin these wings.

I couldn't hold myself and I already cut some sheeting for the flaps to experiment with .
I'm dubbling two sheets of 1/24" balsa with the grain crossed at 45 degrees to see if it is more rigid (I guess I'll find out tomorrow when I get it out of the clamps).
If this works then I'll use that on top and bottom ribs in the middle
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well, after suffering several brain cramps as a consecuence of reading the info posted in the spoileron thread + some info in Dave's Thornburg book I came out of the mud and got some momentum again.
I'm building new flaps that would be about 26% of the total chord.
No real advace yet on the wing part yet but I'm getting there.
By the way I wasn't very impressed with the result of the doubler made of two sheets at 45 angle. So I went for the conventional way.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well I might need to put a diesel engine and a hydraulic system to operate them but they do look nice. I hope they work :confused:

[oracle_9]

Strong servos to power those huge flaps is good, but dont forget to reinforce the hinges connecting the flaps to the wings. The forces involved during flight may rip them off.

[ferincr]

I'm thinking in taping them all the way from root to tip (double sided).
As far as servos, the only ones I have are the hitec HS 125 MG so far (42 oz.), but at the pace I'm building them I might go to the US before they are finished and have a chance to pick up some of those futaba micro that someone mentioned in one of the other threads.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well, I getting there. Very slooooooooooooowwwwly!!!
Now the questions....
Would this be enough angle for adding reflex to the wing????
And the other one that I'm not sure I want to hear the answer though...
Did I screw up making the exit for the pushrods on the top of the wing????
I seem to remember reading somewhere that keeping the bottom of the wing "clean" was more important than the top. Anyway it seems like it's going to be hard to get a big angle down, as long as I can get some camber to slow the plane down at landing I'll be happy. I hope the spoilers take care of the rest.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Guys, do you think the Hitech HS 125MG servos would be up for the task on these flaps???
They claim to have 42oz. (which I have no idea how much that is)
The size of the flaps is 3.14" x 43"
Should I cut them in halves (to make 2 flaps in each wing) and make each individual half work with it's own servo???( Y harnessed together).
Or I would only getting myself in bigger problems that way?
Fernando

[Whorges]

Try it and see. Worse that happens is you strip a servo gear.
42 oz is a decent amount of torque. Start high without too much speed. See how the plane reacts. To get more throw you may simply need to use a different control horn.

Looking forward to the results of your ambitious project.

[ferincr]

Whorges, thanks for the reply.
It'll be some time before they get airbourne though.
I'm on my way out of the country for a month or so (I have to go skiing and there is not much snow around here :D :D :D ).
Fernando

[ferincr]

I finished the wings saturday night and went to try them on sunday morning.
Well, I still not feeling like pulling the camera out to take pics of the left overs yet (may be in a couple of more days) I'm still mourning.
Don't ask what happened because I'm still asking that myself.
A couple of hand tosses and it went straight.
Up on the histart, unhook, test the flaps (very responsive) I mixed so I can also use the flaps as ailerons (not much reaction on the plane since they were just the lengh of the main panels).
I started a turn and that was it...
The plane got posesed by some weird force. It was imposible to control turns. Up/down response was ok but sideways no control whatsoever, once it started turning it wouldn't stop and when I managed to stop the turn the whole thing would start again to the other side.
Well, let's cut to the chase...
I lost it down wind and finally I found the left overs.
Fuse not that bad (just broken in two places) stab, reparable. Wings, firewood (not even good for that...).
Fernando.

[bobby legue]

Fernando,
Terrible thing that happened to your plane. Very sorry. Try to remember your movements on the sticks and especially your flap and flapperon controls. It sounds like there must have been a cross up in the mixing and the dominate control surface slowly got the best input.
I hope you build again!
Bob

[ferincr]

Fernando,
Terrible thing that happened to your plane. Very sorry. Try to remember your movements on the sticks and especially your flap and flapperon controls. It sounds like there must have been a cross up in the mixing and the dominate control surface slowly got the best input.
I hope you build again!
Bob
Well, the thing is nothing of that is to blame for since as I tried the "ailerons" (that I put onthe left stick) and they weren't too responsive I decided to fly it as the original RES (with the rudder and elevator on the right stick)
The flaps were on the left side slider and I wasn't touching them.
I have no idea what happened, if it was that somehow due to the new setup with the flaps ( and the gap between the TE and the LE ofthe flap ) kind of shadowed or made turbulence to the air hitting the rudder. (which I don't think so since a lot of planes have flaps and these quite nicely built).
Or I just plain blew it with the airfoil/washout choice (which it sounds quite wrong to me since the plane flew, it just didn't like to obey to the rudder input)
Anyway....
That is problably the reason a lot of people study engineering before designing things.
Tahnks for your condolences, probably tomorrow I start pulling appart the wreckage It seems like the spars are salvageables. The fuse is under repair already.
I had a lot of fun with the Aquila Grande in that slope though. It just loves to go fast :D I still not believe those spars don't burst into splinters :eek: :eek: :eek:
Fernando

[bobby legue]

Fernando,
How much dihedral did you have in the wings? If it was not enough it would have have a very hard time turning. I still dont believe that the airfoil was the problem as the faster the plane flies the more authority the rudder should have. If the dihedral was inadequate the rudder has nothing to push against and when you were trying to turn, if you were also inputting a touch of up to keep the nose up the plane would slow even more and the result could be nearly nothing. Perhaps you were flying just short of stalling, as you stated the plane floated very well it just wouldnt turn. The combination of the wing slowly dropping to gain a little speed then slowly responding and you trying to recover after it picked up a little speed and correcting the other way may have slowed it down to set it up for another stall. This happened to my Quasoar and it too was terminal.
Just a thought,
Bob

[ferincr]

Fernando,
How much dihedral did you have in the wings? If it was not enough it would have have a very hard time turning. I still dont believe that the airfoil was the problem as the faster the plane flies the more authority the rudder should have. If the dihedral was inadequate the rudder has nothing to push against and when you were trying to turn, if you were also inputting a touch of up to keep the nose up the plane would slow even more and the result could be nearly nothing. Perhaps you were flying just short of stalling, as you stated the plane floated very well it just wouldnt turn. The combination of the wing slowly dropping to gain a little speed then slowly responding and you trying to recover after it picked up a little speed and correcting the other way may have slowed it down to set it up for another stall. This happened to my Quasoar and it too was terminal.
Just a thought,
Bob
Ha!!! you might have a point there, although I didn't reduce the dihedral much, (almost nothing) I can't remember but it was something close to 2" on the central panels + around 4" on the tips.

[ferincr]

Well, almost... :p
This is after the authopsy.
Anybody knows a good sources for miniature black boxes??? :D :D :D

[bobby legue]

Well maybe that wasnt the issue as I have the original plans for the 100 inch Aquilla and it says that both dihedrals are 4 degrees inner and outer wing sections. So you are pretty close to specs. To me that seems marginal. I like my plane to have at least 5 degrees in the center panels and about 4 or more in the outer. Most always more. Thats more than most people but what I give up in wingspan I recover in a much tighter turns and that means a lot when your close to the ground and find a small thermal. Launching is much easier, they just track straight and dont pop off the line when I add some up on those windless days when launches arent so great. Also I can land in a smaller area, as in between tree lined fields. I can and do fly with my center of gravity fairly far back and still be stable in this configuration. This helps me not to plow through some light lift. On strong lift days they sort of hop up skyward.
And then again some planes are perfect just as they are designed.
Some more to think about,
Bob

[Mike K]

This happened to my Quasoar and it too was terminal.
Just a thought,
Bob

Bob,

I have a Quasoar about 70% built that I intend to finish this year after I get some stick time with the OlyII I'm currently working on. Anything I should modify on the kit before putting it together? I was thinking of just doing the flaps w/o ailerons. I built the wing as the 122" version...

Thanks.
Mike K.

[bobby legue]

All I can tell you for sure is you HAVE to fly it faster than you think and be sure of your poly degrees. I only cheated it a little and lost it all. The only thing I did apart from the plans was to add two strips of carbon fiber tape, top and bottom at high point of wing and directly below it, before I glassed the poly joint. The wings didnt flex very much at all on the winch!
Hope this helps,
Bob

[ferincr]

Well, the fuse is under "patchment" already since I still have the original wings to fly with. I'll take th opportunity to do a total overhaul though.
I stripped it cmpletelly from all the radio eq. (which was all loose after the crash anyway) as soon as I finish patching it I'll sand it all and apply new paint.
The wings though, no idea what to do with them.
I think what I'll is what I should have done to begin with, ask people that know or have previous experiences with it.
As a little reminder I chose the AG34 at 10% for the central pannels and for the tips the transition from that one to the AG37.
Washout, about 1 degree for the main pannels + another one on the tips.
I put flaps on the main pannels to help lowering speed on final approach. They were about 1/4 of the chord.
Well, we know now that that didn't work...
Any suggestions for the next wing config??????? (please)
The idea is to end up with a set of wings that would give me the type of performance of my Aquila Grande ( or better) for windy days or a little sloping.

[Whorges]

Did you increase your wing span over the original wing? If you did then I think you also needed to increase the tail size. I also agree it doesn't look like you had much dihedral. I'd say rebuild your existing wing with some more poly or add ailerons on the tips. Don't give up on your wings! I think you had a great idea. You can work it out!

[ferincr]

Whorges, thanks for the encouragement.
I will rebuild them (or better said a new set).
I'm just waiting for some more input as I'm still a bit aprehensive about it. It was very unespected what happened and not knowing what was the cause it makes me think that the whole thing might happen again (and I don't want to deal with it, not yet).
I didn't change dimensions at all, just the airfoils and the dihedral (barelly).
It makes sense though that may be that was the cause.
The tail feathers are the same as original, the only change is the balanced rudder for a non balanced one that worked ok with the original wings (nothing to rave about but it turns). Although when I decided to make the unbalanced one I expected more response to be honest, since I've been told that it is more efficient.
Anyway, I'll scrap the spars and start all over again, this time without the flaps and may be ailerons on the tips.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Sorry guys, I'm still not buying the lack of dihedral theory 100%. :(
I've been comparing the original wings with these others and there is not as much difference as it was on the air. Actually I just checked again and it's the same (if not a touch more in the inner pannels).
What about the change of airfoil towards the wing tip (slimmer) (sohuld I keep the same AG34 all the way to the tip instead of going to an AG37???)and/or the lack/exccess of washout, speeding the wing tips to a point that once a turn started it wouldn't slow down to fly straight again???? :confused: :confused:
I would like to have a convincing theory before I start reconstructing, so far I'm a bit reluctant to build the same config. :(
If anyone has any theories that can give me more confidence shoot away...
It doesn't need to be the same airfoil I used, if you know of a airfoil or combo 9f them that would work well on this bird together, I can print them out and try them.
Thanks,
Fernando

[Thermaler]

When you changed from a balanced to an unbalanced rudder do you increase the size of the rudder?
Something I learned the hard way on an Oly II that I modified the crap out of only to make it scrap.

Hell's Mutt

[ferincr]

When you changed from a balanced to an unbalanced rudder do you increase the size of the rudder?
Something I learned the hard way on an Oly II that I modified the crap out of only to make it scrap.

Hell's Mutt

No I didn't.
I thought that if the unbalanced rudder was going to be more efficient would be no point to make it bigger.
May be that is not the case huh!

[Thermaler]

If I am not mistaking an unbalanced rudder is more efficient if it has the same area.
Maybe one of the more knowledgable guys will chime in and enlighten us all.
Back to sanding on a TRAXL for me.

[MusashiG]

Bob,

I have a Quasoar about 70% built that I intend to finish this year after I get some stick time with the OlyII I'm currently working on. Anything I should modify on the kit before putting it together? I was thinking of just doing the flaps w/o ailerons. I built the wing as the 122" version...

Thanks.
Mike K.

Hi Mike,

I bought a Quasoar back in 89' which, after a long abscense from active flying, am finally building and about 60% completed. It is going to be straight winged with ailerons and I've shortened the inboard wing sections about 5" each side.

Since I plan to fly mostly slope, I put carbon strips along the bottom of all spars, behind the leading edge, as well as other areas that I figured could help. I also layered 3/4oz glass under the bottom and inboard top sheeting and I think I did a pretty decent 1st attempt at vacume bagging using a seal-a-meal. Next, I have to cut out and frame the control surfaces which I've been stalling on because I can't decide how I want to rig them. Standard angled or tubular flaps? Control arms or torque rod links?
Living in a rual area, I don't have any experience or insight into the newer construction techniques other than what I can read about on the internet.

You mention you're flying an OlyII so it sounds like we're in the same boat.
How complete is your construction on your Quasoar?