Gotta love Aussie Hobby Shops

[RussellK]

So I'm after another Formosa, having seriously hurt my previous one, and after a bit of hunting about, I decided against getting one from an OS supplier and go with an Aussie shop 'cause I might pay more, but I'll get it sooner.

I give Roj's Hobbies a call - I'd dealt with Roj on Ebay previously, he seemed a bit scatty (sold me a ducted fan kit with no instructions - he couldn't find it so I had to source and buy a copy from Japan - months later he found it...) but seemed OK otherwise.

I call up at 11:30am on Thursday - he's got one in stock, postage seems fine, address and Visa card details given, all sorted, and just as I'm about to hang up, he says he probably won't get it off this week, he'll try and get onto it next week some time.

It didn't register at first - most of my mail order stuff has been with Col Taylor, who will get an order into the mail that day unless you call late in the afternoon - I kind of just expected that a shop who said they did mail order would get the order out into the mail that day. Obviously not in Roj's shop.

Needless to say, that'll be the last order I do from Roj, but it seems typical of many hobby shops - I'll buy off the shelf from my local hooby shop, but if it's not in stock I'll never order from them because they're proven themselves unreliable previously. I've overheard the owner moan about Internet sellers, but the fact is the good ones aren't those who master the smoke and mirrors of new technology, rather they get the very basics of retail right - giving the customer what they want - comunication, information, price and timely response.

I realise retail is a tough gig, but underwhelming performance ain't going to win any more business.

[pldaniels]

RussellK,

I agree - unless it's in stock it's just not worth risking. With most factory purchases, there's about a 20 day factory lead time from the moment of order (and you have to have a large order, you can't just go buy $500 or $1500 of gear), then it takes about another week after it is sent before it'll turn up at your shop.

Being an internet-based shop is certainly still no excuse for dropping service standards. If you get orders paid by ccard then they should be going out the same day, as you mentioned, unless it's after a certain time (takes a little while to wrap things up and drive down to the PostOffice).

I hope things work out okay for you (ie, you don't lose your money).

Regards.

[Randori]

Retail is a tough gig, but retailers know that going into it (I'm a retailer, so I speak with some authority on the matter). The problem is this, the C students need to work for themselves to make a decent buck, so they decide to start a business. What they don't realise is that the key to retail is people, not products. Customer service comes first, or your shop won't! (come first I mean).
I've been waiting for parts for my heli for two weeks now, but because Andrew at Extreme Hobbies in Dee Why has been so helpful and friendly, I'm willing to wait.
As for Roj's Hobbies, I've got to say that I disagree with how he runs his mail order business. If this company is unprepared to send out your product immediately, then they shouldn't be charging your credit card immediately.

[ExtremeSkyes]

I've never dealth with Roj in an online transaction, but I frequent his shop regularly and he's definately one of the better ones. I don't always find what I need there, but he has always been helpful and friendly.

I guess doesn't matter where one goes, there's a chance that there'll be a bad experience at one time or another. I don't work for Roj or get any kick backs, so don't get me wrong here, but I wouldn't boycot him or anyone on one bad experience.

Ex.

[RussellK]

Hey, he seems like a nice guy on the phone, and is probably excellent in serving customers face-to-face, but clearly just doesn't "get" mail order.

Can you imagine if you walked into his shop, paid for the plane on his shelf and he told you that he was too busy to get it down at the moment, but he'd try and get on to it next week and have it on the counter for you to pick up?

Parcel post between metro areas is usually next day delivery, which makes mail order almost as much of an impulse purchase as buying in person from the shop. A retailer who doesn't understand that shouldn't be trying to do mail order.

A good example of expertise in mail order is Col Taylor in Wagga. You call them early in the afternoon and they'll make sure it's in the post that day. For that reason (and consistently good prices and good stock levels) I've bought a couple of planes, engines and radios off them. Unfortunately they're not too strong in GWS nor electric in general.

[ZIPPER]

I have mail ordered stuff locally and it seems to take weeks to be delivered. I ordered a plane from the US and it took 3 days from the day he posted it.


Glenn

[osmium_192]

Model flight i usualy order from for batteries, and their delivery usually goes such that the express post is the cheapest. at 12 dollars, for a few hundred dollars of goods, its OK, but when it arrives the next day, you really fell that the 12 dollars was well worth it. Through modelflight, there no email or any personal relations, its all click, click, click, done. and guranteed to arrive in 1-3 days (well not guranteed, but thats in my experience)

BUT yes, the US ordering systems are still something to be seen. I order from tower hobbies too, for parts like the futaba gyro and i was charged $4 US for postage. Its slow with surface mail, but hey, if im in no rush, im saving about $100 off what i would have paid here. All this because of the personal servirce i get in some local shops that deny the advantages of the net.

Owen

[RussellK]

Just to finish the story, having made the order late morning last Thursday, I called up on Tuesday to check what was happening as nothing had turned up. He told me that he'd sent it on Monday.

The plane turned up today (Thursday) - the stamp said it was posted yesterday (Wednesday the 18th) so he actually hadn't posted it when I called on Tuesday despite claiming he had, and after lying about having sent it, still didn't bother getting it into the post until the next day.

Based on that service, and the fact he felt he had to lie about it, meaning he obviously felt he probably should have sent it, I don't think I'll be doing much business with Roj in the future.

Like others have said, I get stuff from Aircraft World all the time and it's a 3 day delivery with remarkably cheap postage. When I do choose to buy locally it's disappointing to get such bad service.

[cattleprod]

Just thought i'd put my 2 bobs worth in here. My mail order stuff generally goes at same day. The larger stuff either goes out same or next day (Yeah, i've got a 20K round trip to a "Freindly PO") Now, when i'm understaffed at times, we generally tell the customers that it won't make todays mail. Or in your case russell, the following week. OK, i admit. Thats lousy service (for guys who want stuff yesterday not tomorrow) no matter how you look at it.
Sorry for the stress.
Roj

Any young guys or gals out there looking for a job?
You guessed it, processing mails orders, mail runs etc.
Part time, casual etc considered.
CV to;
Roj
136 Wingrove st
Fairfield Vic 3078
info@rojshobbies.com

[osmium_192]

Well I just ordered from Roj and he seems to be up to his word for same day delivery for small parts. We actually had a little problem with the transaction, but once it was sorted he sent it out in the morning.

So i think we all should give everyone a chance, like I once ordered from eflypower and they sent me the superseeded item and also missed out another item, but they agreed to pay for the return post and will send me the new one which is pretty fair, its just time ive lost.

Owen

[RussellK]

My point is that I gave Roj a chance - in fact I was going to order from Eflypower but thought I'd get my plane faster by buying locally.

What I have learnt from Roj is useful to know - he's not really set up for mailing large items, but smaller things will probably get out within a day or two rather than a week, so maybe I'll try him again for a motor or something in the future.

It adds to the body of knowledge I've built up about vendors in Oz - like which retail outlets are associated with which distributors, which can be useful when trying to track down a specific item - you check who the distributor is, and often there's a retailer closely associated with them who will get the item faster and at a better price.

[cattleprod]

The problems we have faced has been an exponential growth in my business. I need more staff however, the premises we operate from is to small to house another staff member. We are currently searching for the right location to remedy the processing problems (And space to move & display stock). The week Russell ordered his Formosa was a classic example of being under staffed. My off-sider was totally under the pump (I actually had a break for 2-weeks) and was unavailable to do the mail runs. Hence the "Yep we can do it however, it wont go till next week". We couldn't for love or money, find anyone who would take on a couple of hours of work a day over the Xmas/NY break to fill this hole.
Again, no stress or bad vibes intended.
roj

[RussellK]

Glad to see things are going well Roj. But you gotta understand, when you're on the other end of mail order, you have no idea what is going on at the shop - what staff there are or aren't, all you know is whether your order has turned up, and how long it was since you ordered it.

My previous Formosa actually came from you - but in that case a mate picked it up for me (he also bought a Himark brushless for himself) and brought it back on his flight. Unfortunately I can't always rely on having a friend to do courier duty :)

[ya33a]

My Tuppence worth...

I have known Col Taylor since the day he started selling gear out of the boot of his car in Wagga, he then progressed to his garage then his shop. It's funny how the sport in Wagga has thrived and so has Col's business, where other 'operators' in similar sized towns have stocked a bit of this and that and the sport has peaked and declined, usually the teenage staff at the local 'toyworld' are the main drivers, trying to get bits for their latest project and are really helpful but once they move on there isn't the 'expert' advice anymore and so the stock becomes obsolete and the shop caters for a different customer base.

The internet is a fantastic source of knowledge and information, you can buy almost anything through it, but you do loose the personal touch, you loose the 'bring it in when you finish it I'd love to see it' or 'I'll come out and watch you maiden flight it'.

Some 'operators' need to remember who pays their bills, but equally they need support so they will be around, just incase your tank splits, or that new servo starts jittering the Friday before the contest.

[pldaniels]

ya33a,

Well said. As an internet-only sort of shop, it's hard to get down there with you guys to share your experiences, needless to say I'd love to be doing it together. For me, I do have the local flying club here and then one about 140km away (which I attend once a month for their "glider day").

Maybe I should show my face more on the WWW cam :D

Paul.

[RussellK]

As I probably mentioned previously, I've bought a couple of planes and a couple of radios from Col Taylor over the years - although I've tended to deal with Laurie more. It always impressed me that a dealer in regional Australia could run such a good mail order business based on a large amount of stock on hand, competitive prices and reliable delivery, but then again, perhaps he's in a better position than Roj - maybe a less busy storefront allows the time to handle mail order in a timely fashion.

As for the local hobby shop, the guy who used to own it was a regular at the local field, and while he wouldn't instruct as he was Mode 2, he certainly knew how to maintain customer relationships. When he sold the business, the connection to the local club disappeared and while the remaining staff are all great guys, I don't know if that relationship is still there, as none of them seem to be keen flyers.

We also have the local Toyworld franchise who seem to have a scatty collection of gear - there seems to be a constant tension between their corner of the shop and management who see better profits in other areas.

And I've got to say, both the Toyworld and the LHS are utterly clueless about eletric flight. They have no idea what kV means, or what a watt is, and tend to stock a bizarre range of brushless mototrs and lipo packs which looks very much like the distributor's rep has managed to push out some dead stock from the warehouse.

[Tailgunner1]

Well I’ve bought a few kits and stuff from model flight. But the problem i find with them is their customer service and after sales support really sux if your dealing with them email, which is the way many of us like to do it. They are lucky to answer emails at all.

I decided on my last purchase to give Roj a try. I got one of those AwesomeRC stukas which Roj has for one of the best prices around. He shipped it to me in no time however there was a wing warp problem. I emailed him and he mailed me back in about 10 minutes telling me to return the wing and he would order another. I did this and got the new wing returned in no time. The only gripe i have is, once again email support. I trashed the model a little due to a CG mess up and i emailed Roj twice about whether he could get me some parts for it,(canopy, wheelpants, cowling) but got no reply to either email. I would of been happy with just a "Sorry we dont sell the parts" or something.

Model flight definitely has it right with their web site. You can spend ages messing around there. If you want to clean up in this business, I think you have to invest time and money into an excellent web site.

BTW. Iv bought a couple of receivers from Paul (PLdaniels) and he is the man for genuine friendly helpful support.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth...

[pldaniels]

Model flight definitely has it right with their web site. You can spend ages messing around there. If you want to clean up in this business, I think you have to invest time and money into an excellent web site.


Yes, if you want to run an unique WWW site, money or having a person with the skills on board is absolutely required. One thing that I think tricks up a lot of existing traditional shop owners is the fact that adding "internet sales" to their collection of sales methods is not as simple or more importantly as low-impact as it is often sold off as being. To provide effective email support is definately a good thing but it's certainly not an easy thing.

I have a somewhat opposite problem, I seem never to get to the phone or be around when the phone rings (usually it rings at the most difficult of moments :) ). I'm going to have to start wearing it on my belt.

Paul.

PS, thanks for the compliments.

[Valaire]

Having read the comments about Australian Mail order service I feel compelled to make known my experience with Eflypower.
Mike Huang is very helpfull when it comes to advice about motor/gearbox/battery setups but is seriously lacking in other areas.
I have bought several hundred dollars worth of equipment from Eflypower and have been impressed with their very prompt delivery.
It is another area which I have not been impressed by.
I bought and eflypower inrunner motor and the shaft broke when I ran the motor without a propellor. They did send another shaft but the motor would not run well because the windings were damaged. I asked for a new motor but the best they could do was take it back and repair it. The returned motor has not run very well since.
I also bought a dedicated Li poly charger (of their recommendation) from them and an Align li poly battery. The charger blew up the battery.
Mike claimed that Align made a bodgy run of batteries and won't replace them and thus he won't replace my battery.

[Valaire]

After this I ceased dealing with Eflypower. I have since bought a high quality Li poly battery (20c) and now this too has blown up on charging so it seems that the charger was at fault. I have emailed Eflypower asking for a refund on the charger and original battery but have had no reply. Mike is incredibly elusive in these matters, he even claims that he is simply an employee of Eflypower even though the Australian Bank account into which payments are made is in his name! (very trusted employee)
My experience with Aussie Traders is that if you are sold a dud then they will see to it that the problem is rectified.
My experience with Eflypower is that they have cost me about $240 in dud goods and damaged batteries.This does not make shopping with these people at all cheap and it is very unrewarding to have your supplier run for cover when things do wrong.
For my money stick to the Australian suppliers. I have had reasonable joy from Tower Hobbies and Omni Models when you buy brand name goods but beware because they can stuff up too. Don't have goods sent by surface mail. They simply do not turn up and it takes about 3 months before these suppliers will replace the items. The good thing is that they do replace the items or give you a credit. So only have your goods sent by Airmail.They are a step up from Eflypower.
One thing you have to be careful of with Tower/Omnimodels is their computer. I ordered a Boat, which was supposed to be in stock duing that particular month and also a fuel filter. They sent the fuel filter ($3) two days later with $16 airmail and put the boat on backorder as was going to take a week before it was available. I could see that this is what the system was about to do so I sent several emails to them before the filter left their store but was told they could not override the computer, nor could an individual simple walk down the system and physically pluck the filter from the outgoing mail.So I got a $19 fuel filter. Needless to say I cancelled the order on the boat.
So in light of these performances the Aussie retailers are looking pretty good and not too expensive when all is considered.

[pldaniels]

Valaire,

Sounds like you're having a real run of bad luck there. Hope things get better for you in the future.

I've got to say, with the way petrol prices are screaming through the roof, local (AU) mail-order is looking more attractive than taking a 10km drive to the LHS :\

Of all the international order places, I must however say that aircraft-world.com is exceptionally good, though I must admit I've never had to test their "returns" policy.

Paul.

[panzerd18]

I have spent at least $1500+ worth of goods from Roj Hobbies. All have been over the counter. Always very friendly (Roj and the other guy) the best prices around and their website is regularly updated so I can check to see what stock is in. I will keep shopping at Roj because he is so friendly and prices are great.

On the other hand I have also had dealings with HSTORE mail order and they have been great. I just direct deposited the money and in no time the goods had arrived.

[pldaniels]

I think that at some point throughout a businesses life, there's going to be one or two glitches, that's the nature of dealing with people/stock/money.

I consider what separates businesses is how they handle the 'bad moments'.

Paul.

[Retired Aviator]

I've dealt with Roj, and he seems like a decent guy if a little like a 'moving picture show'.

He's had some hard to get items when others didn't, so I've bought from him and gone back even though it's way off my normal route. Prices seem OK too.

But for the big $$ items, I shop in the US because of cost. I know it's not the retailers here making the big bucks, but the distributors/wholesalers, and of course the US market is thousands of times the size of ours so that helps when they buy from manufacturers.

I saw RCV 60 SP's advertised here recently for 550 AUD, and landed one here from Hobby Barn for not much over 300 AUD six months ago. You can't ignore that sort of saving.

The other thing about the US market is that it is very consumer and service sensitive. Americans expect good service, demand it, and get it. My last order from the US was here in 10 days from hitting the 'confirm order' prompt, and that's not bad. They also kept me informed of what was happening, received order confirmation, some items being posted from another shop in another state, and dispatch date which was less than 20 hours after I confirmed. Most of that was time difference too.

[burbler]

have dealt with Roj for a few years and have nothing but praise for the guy.....great prices always helpfull and gets most things in a couple of days if he does'nt stock it.....Unlike ModelFlight will never do buisness with them again......Ordered some gear on 17th of Feb and still waiting.....Sometimes they reply to email sometimes they dont maybe a courtesy call would'nt go astray......Aussie shops wonder why we shop overseas.....

[pldaniels]

Definately a common theme that comes up around here is that basically it seems -very- difficult to merge both bricks/mortar business with internet. The two really do require very different persons to execute.

If you've got a WWW/internet shop then you really must be vigilant with email responses, anything over 2 ~ 4 hours in normal business hours without a due response is only going to cause the end client to "move on". Ideally I don't like to see mails sit for more than 2 hours without /some/ form of a response (so long as it's human, not an email like "your email has been received" generated by the computer).

Paul.

[Tonystott]

I have spent heaps through Mike at Eflypower, and have been very impressed without exception. A CF heli frame I bought from him had one stripped thread on the motor mount (out of 160+ parts!), and he asked me to email him photos of the part (screws had been loosely factory-fitted but one would just spin in the hole). He asked me to return the whole thing, and shipped me a replacement before he received the $100+ frame back from me.

Add to that, his prices are about 16% under the prices Align charges local customers in Taiwan, and more than 10% less than the official Australian distributor...

[panzerd18]

Well my worst experience at a hobby shop was a Hawthorn Hobbies Melbourne, getting told to get out of the store. I said I wanted a .46AX but wanted to know the price as he didn't have prices on his website (they were not there because everything was really expensive). He told me and I said ok. He pushed me to buy it but I said no, and he asked said why, and I said I can buy a .46AX cheaper. He asked how much, and I said $169 and he said thanks and stormed out the back. Then I was looking around the store and he said in a loud voice I SAID THANKYOU.

The silly thing is though, he didn't even have to match $169, I would have bought it if he said $179 from his $191 but he didn't offer and lost a potential customer. Thats not how you treat potential customers in such a high competition industry.

[hyphen]

Geez, I've gotta throw my 2 bobs worth in here. Never had a problem with e fly power except the lack of back up on Align motor that I bought. The local shop for me is North Coast Hobbies and the owner, Dallas, flies just about everything that he sells so the opinions he gives are usually honest and the service OK. Last big purchase for me was new 90 2 stroke and he matched the best price that I could find on the net. If Dallas hasn't got the stock he'll usually suggest Kelletts or Col Taylor and they are both great to deal with.

[olmod]

Well my worst experience at a hobby shop was a Hawthorne Hobbies Melbourne getting told to get out of the store. I said I wanted a .46AX but wanted to know the price as he didn't have prices on his website (they were not there because everything was really expensive). He told me and I said ok. He pushed me to buy it but I said no, and he said why, and I said I can buy a .46AX cheaper. He asked how much and I said $169 and he said thanks and stormed out the back. Then I was looking and he said in a loud voice I SAID THANKYOU.

The silly thing is though, he didn't even have to match $169, I would have bought it if he said $179 from his $191 but he didn't offer and lost a potential. Thats not how you treat potential customers in such a high competition industry.

I even seen this online for $179.95. :(

[ExtremeSkyes]

I had similar experience, although it was only over a prop adaptor! I've never gone back there.

Ex.

[panzerd18]

I had similar experience, although it was only over a prop adaptor! I've never gone back there.

Ex.


What from Hawthorn Hobbies?

[bugeater]

Well my worst experience at a hobby shop was a Hawthorne Hobbies Melbourne getting told to get out of the store. I said I wanted a .46AX but wanted to know the price as he didn't have prices on his website (they were not there because everything was really expensive). He told me and I said ok. He pushed me to buy it but I said no, and he said why, and I said I can buy a .46AX cheaper. He asked how much and I said $169 and he said thanks and stormed out the back. Then I was looking and he said in a loud voice I SAID THANKYOU.

The silly thing is though, he didn't even have to match $169, I would have bought it if he said $179 from his $191 but he didn't offer and lost a potential. Thats not how you treat potential customers in such a high competition industry.

I'm not surprised. That guy seems to have a bit of a reputation as being a :censored:
I mentioned how small the Melbourne club grounds seem to be compared to the one I was a member of in Perth. He started making comments along the lines that if you need lots of space you shouldn't be flying. I need the space because of the length of my bungee :( He also argued about how PolyQuests are the same as Kokam or something. I don't care if he is right - you shouldn't argue with your customers. I'm never going back.

Compared with Perth, I'm actually surprised by the lack of good stores here in Melbourne. I thought it would be the other way around. Roj's is probably the best I've been too, but it's pretty small.

[ExtremeSkyes]

Panzer..Yes Hawthorn Hobbies.

Bugeater...I shop regularly at Roj's. Hobby Model Warehouse is the other one I usually go to. He's further out of the city (in Thomastown) than Roj's though. Bigger shop and more stuff there. Some things are a more expensive, but Rod is a great guy when it comes to helping you out and just having a chat.

Ex.

[olmod]

Have you tried Tony Cinncotta,a very experienced modeller with a shop that caters for most aspects,incidently ive known Tony for over 50 years from flying in the schoolyard and when he was at model dockyard in Melbourne also through his other hobby shops,his shop is a veritable alladins cave with lots of models on display including oldtimers to current,and ive always found him to be helpfull with advice and service.when last i spoke to him he said that he had a number of prebuilt models that he was thinking of selling (i smelled a bargain for someone) anyway TRY TONY :) hes' still working on updating his website so you would probably be better to ring him or better still go to the shop.
http://www.saturnhobbies.com.au/ cheers.Lez. :)

[bugeater]

I did like the Thomastown store, but I haven't been to Saturn hobbies. The only others I've been to are Hearns hobbies in town and the one in Werribee (the archery store/hobby shop). The Werribee guy is also pretty nuts - I've tried to buy archery equipment from him but gave up :rolleyes:

I just found my fav stores in Perth were much larger, had way more stock and had at least two staff on at anyone time. I expected the exact opposite here. Thank god for net stores.

[dangitman]

Needless to say, that'll be the last order I do from Roj, but it seems typical of many hobby shops - I'll buy off the shelf from my local hooby shop,

yeah, this is very typical. I'm boycotting Aussie vendors with the exception of Toys'R'Us, until they get their :censored: together. See my comment in the "how long does it take to ship from US" thread.

[dangitman]

The internet is a fantastic source of knowledge and information, you can buy almost anything through it, but you do loose the personal touch,

Generally I have found the opposite. The personal touch is not lost via email, and many international vendors are very dedicated to the customers. Meanwhile, in face-to-face transactions, I have found the Aussies to be very apathetic, not really caring - or sizing you up to wonder how much money they can wring from you.

Maybe I just haven't found the right places - but that is also another aspect of the the problem. So many Aussie vendors have little internet presence and are hard to find from either an internet search or the Yellow Pages.

Then there are those specialists who I have found from "inside" recommendations - but those people tend to be either really slow in service, or somewhat elitist or unhelpful.

I won't name names here, but for my Micro RC systems, I made my decision to go with a totally different system because of the unhelpfulness of the local vendor.

[pldaniels]

dangitman,

Maybe I just haven't found the right places - but that is also another aspect of the the problem. So many Aussie vendors have little internet presence and are hard to find from either an internet search or the Yellow Pages.

This _is_ the hard thing about being an internet-vendor (yes, I'm one), trying to squeeze your way into the google rankings, takes time but persistence does pay off. The other thing is advertising. Internet advertising (like with RCG here) is realtively easy and cheap, has a fast turn-around cycle (between submission and visibility). Print advertising is otoh rather expensive and slow but has a long-term impact/visibility (adverts never fade from the pages :) )

Paul.

[dangitman]

Hmmm. I wonder how the shops that do show up in the Australian Google searches got there. Normally, I find Google's advertising very useful - maybe even more useful than the search results, when it comes to buying something. But the Aussie sites that appear in the Google ads are almost always awful.

Regarding my previous comments, it wasn't always this way. 15 years ago, the local hobby stores were fantastic - great personal service, and internationally competitive prices, wide range of stock. I remember an article in Airborne magazine analyzing the cost of buying via mail-order from overseas. The conclusion was that it was basically a wash, and sometimes more expensive to buy via mail-order.

How things have changed. For me, I think things went downhill when they closed the Ringwood branch of Fliteline. Today, Fliteline is a shadow of its former self. I remember that they used to let me read their magazines for hours on end, because I couldn't afford to buy them very often. Then they would sell me old issues cheaply when they had excess stock.

[panzerd18]

Some of the stores are fantastic but most people don't know they exist.

Hence the sticky thread I made relating to Australian online stores.


I think the best advertising you can do is to have an ad in RCM News and Airborne Magazine. The people who read them are your target market and thus need to be effectively marketed to.

[pldaniels]

Hmmm. I wonder how the shops that do show up in the Australian Google searches got there. Normally, I find Google's advertising very useful -


Pushing up the google ranks requires a good combination of time and external-site-linking (ie, a site other than my own linking to my site). If you can setup links with exactly the same wording then that rapidly drives the ranking up (eg, how they did the 'miserable failure' linking to GW Bush).

Years ago the AUD was weaker than it is now, that means that despite the prices locally 'appearing high', when you factored in the shipping costs in USD it'd push the balance back in favor of AU, at least to the 'wash' point as you mention. Now, with the AUD sitting at a relatively 'strong' $0.75, the internal/AU shipping costs are costing almost as much as just getting the item sent directly. Previously you could have had $10 AUD profit and been happy but now that $10 AUD profit really hurts the consumer because it's of such high relative value (to the USD).

The joys of markets :(

[panzerd18]

pldaniels will my link to your site in the RC online stores thread bump up your rating?

[pldaniels]

panzerd18,

It will help a little bit yes. I'll do some more research into google linking methods and come back with some advice. Right now I'm also working on all those 'suggestions' you guys gave me for the store... (it's coming out nicely, just takes a bit of time :) )

Paul.

[Retired Aviator]

panzerd 18, I agree on the guy who runs Hawthorn Hobbies. He can be a real R sole.

I went in there a year or so back to buy fuel, a mains charger for glow plug starters, a prop hub for an RCV engine, and it came out in conversation that I used a JR X-378 Tx.

He told me:

I was a fool for using 15% nitro (the engine won't run on less than 15% nitro [manufacturer's requirement]), using a mains charger was stupid and I needed a 12V DC powered one (I suppose he didn't had a mains unit in stock), the RCV engines don't deliver much power and they're way too heavy (they deliver the same as an equivalent sized 4 stroke, but are a couple of ounces heavier), and the X-378 became obsolete when the JR 6210 came on the market (one less channel) but the 378 wasn't much good anyway.

On the RCV engine, he actually said to me, "You fell for the marketing blurb on RCV engines".

Four out of four things I wasn't doing right, didn't know what I was doing, and was completely misdirected.

I give my businesss to the Hobby and Model Warehouse in Thomastown, Niddrie Model Aircraft, and Roj's, but never Hawthorn Hobbies even if nobody else has what I want. I'll mail order for it.

I could have choked him before I left, but resolved never to go back, and I never will.

Apparently the shop is on the market, and it's not hard to see why. Whoever buys it is buying zero goodwill. Maybe he's just been in the business too long and needs to get out but can't find a buyer. There has to be a reason for his conduct toward customers, or maybe he's justa prick.

He's good for a laugh though; for a bit of fun I rang and asked him if he stocked Magnum engines. He ran off at the mouth for at least a minute telling me how anybody who flys anything but OS engines is an inbecile.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Hi,
I'm new to this forum but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth.
My job takes me interstate a lot and with my interest in electric RC planes I am able to visit many different stores.
I would agree that WA has great stores and great prices and often you can come across bits and pieces that you dont see in the Eastern states, perhaps WA's strong British influence sees more European product than US and Asian that we see in the East.
I love Hobbyrama in Brissy, great stuff, pretty good prices and really good staff!
Have found Modelflight great to deal with also, talk about super fast delivery!
In Melbourne it's the 2 "R's" for me..... ROD and ROJ. Great blokes, no stuffing about and none of this "can't can't can't" aeromodeller club talk.
Rod at Thomastown is always keen on a chat and is especially helpful when it comes to JR gear. He will quite happily sell you a TX only when many stores around the country will sell you the whole set or nothing! Roj's prices are by far the best in Australia. ie Swallow charger, retailing for $99 - $139 around Aus and Roj has them for $89.00!!!
By my humble observation at stores around the country, it's usually the bearded fat guys behind the counter that turn their backs to customers and talk to other staff members about trade jargon in front of a newy that lose the sales.
It's not rocket science, be nice, be helpful, take a "can do" approach, promote clubs but don't berate someone using commonsense and flying conservative electrics in a huge open park. After all, park electrics are the biggest growth area of our hobby and you would hate to lose too many potential buyers.

[Retired Aviator]

In my view, hobby shop owners should be well aware of the power of the net and sites such as this. If their service and dealings with the public are of a less than desirable standard, then a site such as this can create such negative vibes for their business that it could cost them dearly.

I was about to start dealing with a hobby outlet in Hong Kong dealing mainly in electrics, but their negative feedback (on ebay, and it seems to operate mainly through ebay) was such that I emailed and asked why he thought his feedback had been so bad.

Instead of saying something like they'd dropped the ball for a while, had staffing problems, or some even any semi-plausible reason, but were now back onto customer focus, he attacked model aircraft flyers and hobby types generally saying what a bunch of DH's they were, and how they wanted everything for nothing and they wanted it yesterday. That outlet is the subject of a thread in the international forums.

Sorry, incorrect response. Our club won't be dealing with that outlet which, incidentally, has changed its name a couple of times. Be careful.

[pldaniels]

Sorry, incorrect response. Our club won't be dealing with that outlet which, incidentally, has changed its name a couple of times. Be careful.

Ouch, that's not good at all - even with you handing over a possible truce opportunity it got thrown back into your face, way to go businesses!

Sometimes businesses do drop the ball or have a bad run of plain old "bad luck", but to basically say your customers are DH's, no wonder so many businesses fail.

paul.

[Retired Aviator]

As you'd know Paul, the customer isn't always right, in spite of that old saying retailers have, but you have to find a way to let him think he's right, or perhaps not a complete meathead for being wrong. :D

In the view of some retailers, and to their detriment, that's unnecessary, but there is actually a nice way to tell somebody he's wrong/making a mistake/about to make a bad choice or a hundred other things a consumer can go wrong on.

It's a matter of diplomacy, or good old common sense. It must be noted however that common sense is the least common of the senses!!! ;) ;)

[pldaniels]

Retired Aviator,

Very true what you've said. I think far too many retailers/sales-people take that statement "The customer is always right" a little too literally, the meaning is, as you say, to make the customer feel good about what's going on.

I always believe it's how businesses handle the /mishaps/ that separates them, not how they'd doing during the good times.

Paul.

[iguana_bwana]

I'll put in a plug for Roj.

It's fairly apparent to anyone with an IQ expressed as 3 numerals that his online business is in its relative infancy and website comparitively steam driven. The moment you make contact with him, this is reaffirmed. As an adult, you then 'makes a choice'.

OK. Maybe not the fastest mail order in town, and certainly not the slickest website, but refreshingly straighforward with zero BS. Major thumbs up to you Roj (& Gulley). Hallmarks of a bygone era. Don't change in that regard please.

He replies to inquiries and IME tells it like it is. OK, it might take until the next day so for a kit to be wrapped and mailed which admittedly surprised me too, but if you're that impatient ....perhaps mail order isn't for you or an alternative supplier might be the one for you? But if you want his prices?

Roj's since put in an appearance here explaining why, with an honest admission and apology. it rings true and I believe him. More importantly, he's not alone with growing pains. I've experienced worse recently from previously well regarded Australian sites...and I've used most if not all of them.

As an experienced discerning mail order customer I have been content in my contacts and business with him. I'll forsake a day late in despatch for his combination of customer service orientation, pricing and straighforwardness in dealing. I'll use him again.

[RussellK]

I think everyone agrees Roj is a great bloke, and his prices are consistenly very good. My gripe was with his mail order service, which wasn't wrapped and sent the next day, rather it was halfway through the next week when that happened. Roj did explain the circumstances, and that is fair enough but only from his perspective.

However, my point is that shops who advertise mail order, then provide poor mail order service because they don't assign it the priority that they give to the walk-in customers are giving mail order a bad name.

As a mail order customer, I'd like to think my money is just as good as any customer's, and I expect the same level of attention and service that I'd get if I were in the shop.

To repeat the example I gave before, if I went in there and bought a plane that was on the shelf, and then was told, after paying, that they were a bit too busy to get the ladder out at the moment, but if I came back next week I'd be able to pick it up, you'd have to say I'd be justifyably annoyed. I don't see any difference with a mail order purchase.

Finally, way back when I worked in retail, there was a saying that the stuffed-around customer who kicks up a fuss in the store isn't the problem - it's the one who walks out quietly and complains to all his mates who will cost you business. I probably fall into the latter category, although now the Internet means the people I complain to are slightly greater in number.

What I'd like to think, though, is that I haven't cost Roj much if any business, as plenty of people in this thread have spoken highly of him and his prices. What I do hope is that people who deal with him via mail order might be a little more demanding up front with respect to the level of service they expect, and hopefully Roj will step up.

[panzerd18]

RussellK, Roj did tell you that he could only send it off next week.

He is a really nice guy, I will shop at his store anyday.

Have you seen his new specials

OS .46AX for only $149!!! I have never seen another hobby store come close.

[lenniegordo]

Rojs hobbies, and the web.

Well I don't think Roj interested in web sale. I approached roj with a development proposal for an online shop, that would have included
· A slick web design,
· A shopping kart, point of sail system that tracks stock availability
· Content management system and
· integration in to Quicken or Myob.

After sending Roj the information and a week later giving him a follow up call, Roj had not even bother to read the proposal. And probably still hasn’t.

I guess I am disappointed cause not only is our service good and well price (very well priced) but I even cut our price lower because I love Eflight and just wanted to build an Eflight website, one that would have put Model flight to shame. and cause Roj cool and I liked him when I went in to his store.

Roj if you are up for this Call Me as you can see the Oz eFlight community is gagging for a descent online shop on the south east coast, and with the point of sale system it would make stocking and mail delivery easy you would not have to employ an extra person

[pldaniels]

Lennie,

Chances are he'll still need another person though... the sales transactions are simple enough that I'll grant you but the whole packing/posting process is not trivial. A well packed parcel can take anything up to 30 minutes to do "right" from the time that you aquire the paper in your hand to the time you have it ready to "go".

Paul.

[iguana_bwana]

Hey Russellk

I think in your haste to share yet again with us your continuing angst on this singular incident, you glossed over this comment.

More importantly, he's not alone with growing pains. I've experienced worse recently from previously well regarded Australian sites...and I've used most if not all of them.
The above was an understatement, the antonym of any noun descriptive of your continued complaint. ;)

No one's suggesting or saying that what you said wasn't legitimate, nor the point you raise itself invalid. Even Roj himself has acknowledged it, and paraphrased, said; (a) it was an extraodinary circumstance, (b) he'll try and do better in future, (c) he's sincerely apologetic, (d) hiccups will occur from time to time given the circumstances of his operation at present.

The point is, you've been vociferous about your disenchantment with Roj's Hobbies. We've heard you already. OK! So your parcel was late. Roj's service on that occasion failed to live up to your expectation and apparent standards of perfection. We heard you the first time. We get it. I'm sure he does too. OK. What more would you like him to do about something today that happened yesterday? :rolleyes:

I've had good experiences with Roj, as have others. We acknowledge the desirable as well as idiosyncratic characteristics of his current manner of trading as his online business develops, and are as entitled to report our own experience and opinion in the interests of balance as you are to gripe. It's obvious he stuffed up your order, which isn't the norm according to the generally reported experience. You've made, and made, and made your point. If you presented us with several consistant samples over a protracted period of bad service instead of this singular example, it might accord greater empathy.

If on basis of a single subjective experience which is evidently contrary to the norm according to the testimonials here, you've formed the perception that Roj's Hobbies can't live up to your exacting standards, perhaps it'd be smarter for you to use a r-etailer who you perceive as meeting all your exacting requirements without exception of occasion? Good luck with finding one in Australia! Let us ALL know when you do. :eek:

[iguana_bwana]

Well I don't think Roj interested in web sails. I approached roj with a development proposal for an online shop, that would have included
· A slick web design,
· A shopping kart, point of sail system
With respect, I don't think I would respond either to a potential website developer who mis-spelled sale several times as sail within a single paragraph. Or worse, assuming he discerned the difference, paid insufficient attention to detail to pick up and redress the error. ;)

Then again, Roj could just really be exceptionally busy and shortstaffed as he earlier reported. :)

[iguana_bwana]

but the whole packing/posting process is not trivial. A well packed parcel can take anything up to 30 minutes to do "right" from the time that you aquire the paper in your hand to the time you have it ready to "go".Paul.
Salient point Paul. No joy in the parcel reaching you the next day if it gets there with the contents damaged. In Rojs' case, IME even the tougher ones like ARFs are "done right". :eek:

Same can't be said of another prominent etailer named several times in this thread whose standards are slipping, presumably as they attempt to cope with increased mail order demand. :censored:

[RussellK]

Hey Russellk

No one's suggesting or saying that what you said wasn't legitimate, nor the point you raise itself invalid. Even Roj himself has acknowledged it, and paraphrased, said; (a) it was an extraodinary circumstance, (b) he'll try and do better in future, (c) he's sincerely apologetic, (d) hiccups will occur from time to time given the circumstances of his operation at present.


Fair point, it was only one order, althought I did mention a previous item I got from him where the instructions for a plane weren't in the kit (and this was not an ordinary ARF) - it took me months to source them, eventually paying for them from the Japanse manufacturer. Despite that grief I did give him another go though.

And yes, I am probably a little too sensitive about the matter, and if Roj is looking after his mail order customers the way people are saying, then all the better.

And maybe I will order from him again, although I'm a bit scared now, since after all the bitching I've done he might send a dead rat with the order :)

Might have to get a mate to order it for me I think :)

[lenniegordo]

With respect, I don't think I would respond either to a potential website developer who mis-spelled sale several times as sail within a single paragraph. Or worse, assuming he discerned the difference, paid insufficient attention to detail to pick up and redress the error. ;)

Then again, Roj could just really be exceptionally busy and shortstaffed as he earlier reported. :)
iguana_bwana, thank for the nit picking! I have fix up my spelling sail is now sale. As a person with talent else ware other than spelling I would like to point you to a few website that I have done and you all can be the judge of weather a web developer needs to be able to spell.

http://visithallsgap.com.au/
http://www.visitmildura.com.au
http://www.regentmultiplex.com.au

Are a small sample of over 100 websites I am responsible for designing and developing, I am not responsible for any spelling on these web site as that are content managed buy clients

Also just a few list of award site I have been listedon

www.macromedia.com site of the day!
www.csszengarden.com
www.stylegala.com
www.cssEdge.com
www.cssVault.com

What really pevs me are people who think they can look cool or better than others buy making fun of their short falls

Pretty low behaviour in my book

[pldaniels]

Wow guys, I think it's possibly time to wrap up this thread, it seems to be sticking to the rails like a QLD tilt train *cough*.

Incidently, the "attack" you referr to is often known as an "Ad hominem attack".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

That said, spelling is very important for WWW sites, I agree. I routinely have to correct mishtak3s on my WWW sites that I've glossed completely over and I find it utterly embarrassing to say the least.

Paul.

[lenniegordo]

Yep good point Paul, after a few deep breths I find my self thinking why the hell I got so up set for in the first place. (must be pmt)

[iguana_bwana]

Paul your comment is way out of line. First I suggest you go and familiarise yourself with the REAL and ACCURATE definition of ad hominem argument. Because right now, it's apparent your cognizance of the term is approaching parity with your mate's spelling. Oxford is recommended as the definitive accurate souce. :rolleyes:

Secondly. Pointing out the irony of obvious mis-spelling and glaring inattention to detail throughout a post pimping its writer as the epitome of professional web development is hardly immaterial to either logic or reason nor - now pay attention here - is it attacking the character or integrity of the person concerned.

To the contrary, it was valid comment which could have proven helpful if he'd taken the undeniable truth on board instead of allowing a justifiably embarrassed ego to run riot. :cool:

[iguana_bwana]

after all the bitching I've done he might send a dead rat with the order :)
Hi Russellk

Nah. Rats aren't listed on his website.....perhaps if you phone him to check on stock? :D

I think we all took your point on board. And yer, I think most of us who have been mail-ordering for any length of time have at some stage experienced a hiccup which if only for a moment, evokes an out of proportion emotional response akin to the world being about to topple from its axis. <self deprecating smile> :rolleyes:

My own pet 'hate' is a particular Australian e-tailer who thinks it's OK to substitute an out of stock product with another and ship it without seeking pre-approval. :censored:

[pldaniels]

Guys, seriously, this thread needs to be dropped.

[pldaniels]

iguana,

My "ad hominem" comment wasn't direct at you, it was a general comment for reference, so my appologies should you have been offended. In the event that it's an incorrect reference, that is fine, I don't mind being corrected, indeed how else would one learn.

Now... as for who's my "mates", let's leave that to me ;)

[iguana_bwana]

how else would one learn.
< group hugs > :)

On that note, here's a question for you which stems from a comment I caught in another thread. Is this regional forum all disciplines with an EP orientation or emphasis, or is it supposed to be EP only?

[pldaniels]

< group hugs >

*sniff* who didn't shower last week !?

As for the disciplines, yes, we cover all aspects in this regional forum.

Paul.

[hyphen]

Having a whinge is bad enough but spelling corrections, Latin leassons. Geez, you blokes have lost me.

[RussellK]

Dude, those are excellent sites - great design and layout.

But, I gotta say, before I saw your work, I'd written you off as a bit of a joke, pretty much based on your spelling in your earlier post - which, yes, is unfair, but when all you know of someone is what they've written, it's pretty damn hard to ignore all the spelling mistakes.

You've clearly got great talent, and deserve to do very well designing websites, but you've got to realise a lot of people are going to judge you pretty harshly based on your poor written communication.

[lenniegordo]

With respect iguana_bwana, you seem to be up for picking fights, and yesterday I was not on top of my game and probably looking for one.

Good point RussellK, My work does speak for it self even if I can't.
I think the bitch session should end now.

Good designers/programmers can't spell, it's a left brain - right brain thing.

[steve wenban]

what tha????

[lenniegordo]

I want to say sorry to everyone for getting off topic and having a spat here, I hate it when threads get off topic,

So in future when people give the $%&* about my spelling I'll send them here
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500570

[Tonystott]

Lennie, sorry, but I have to agree with Iguana on this occasion. I don't know you personally, but if I was considering getting in a web designer, your spelling difficulties would tend to see your approach discarded. This is not a case of looking cool or whatever, it is a normal reaction, as many of us are programmed to equate poor spelling with low intelligence. I know this is unfair, but it is just the way education taught us. (I hasten to add that different tolerance levels exist when reading margazine articles :)).

But I think you are wrong to take it as a personal insult. The plain fact is you have trouble spelling, so you have a few choices:-
1) Ignore what others might think or say
2) Use spell and grammar checking tools to help improve the quality, or
3) Do a bit of study with some of the many self-help books out there

[Tonystott]

Sorry Lennie, I wrote my post (#74) while reading the previous page. If I had read the whole thread I would have pulled my head fully in! Sorry! :)

[pldaniels]

Okay, if any of you (other than myself) are running an online shop, now is the time to push in the US market... with the AUD sinking below the $0.75 mark it's actually more attractive for US people to buy from AU.

I'm selling quite a quantity of batteries and parts in the last 2 weeks since the AUD has deflated.

Paul.

[Brettos]

wis I Kud spel proper butt i git threw me mesege to them what ar intrestd.

Regards Brettos.

[WorldStar40]

Cliff guy that owns Hawthorn Hobbies is so full of himself. This guy is spoiling the sport.

He is also the main guy that teaches people at the Doncaster Club, but that is only if you purchase all your gear from Hawthorn Hobbies at a 20% dearer price than any other Hobby Shop in Melbourne. Hitech optic 6 he had for $420 and Rojs Hobbies $285 normal price. I had a motor given to me but even if I brought the rest of the gear including radio would still not teach me. Full kits only he said. He went out of his way to make sure no other instructor was available to teach me. I cannot believe Doncaster would allow a member to control a club in such a way. He is the President -- Cliff McIver.

I have heard since that he is not liked amongst the sport even by most people at Doncaster.

VMAA should kick people like this out of the association. Making profit from beginners that know no better.

[RussellK]

Have you asked anyone else in the club if someone can teach you? If there really is nobody else, you might want to take it up with the VMAA.

BTW, the World Star 40 is an excellent trainer - once you learn to fly it you'll have a blast :)

[pldaniels]

While I can somewhat appreciate the man's lack of want to train people who haven't bought (at least) the bulk of gear off him, I'm at a loss as to why he's actively preventing other members from assisting and would most certainly actively and loudly protest against such agressive tactics.

Having a person as the president whom is also a shop-owner is probably going to result in some conflicts of interest (anyone remember the voting for the new moderator here... remember what happened to my nominations ;) )

[bidlynd]

This :censored: is president now. :eek:

I experienced his B :censored: about 20 years ago and he was only the secretary then.

He tried to have my plane banned from flying after I repaired it from a crash. I got my instructor to fly it and he confirmed that it was airworthy, but Cliff tried to have it banned at a club meeting and the motion was denied.

Just stay away from him and if the club sides with his decision, my advice would be to change clubs trust me it will be better in the long run.

Try contacting Ian Carter (all round nice guy) see what he says.

I eventually left the Club and hobby because of him. Now back into parkflying and electrics

Good Luck

Moderator please feel free to edit this post.

-> I just made the swear words a little less obvious, cheers

[pldaniels]

Sounds like an all-round nice guy... not.

[euromodels]

He tried to have my plane banned from flying after I repaired it from a crash. I got my instructor to fly it and he confirmed that it was airworthy, but Cliff tried to have it banned at a club meeting and the motion was denied.
Did he call CASA as well?

[steve wenban]

Well some one should remind this chap about the power of the the worldwideweb and the fact that RC groups is a highly regarded source of information that could reduce said persons sales abilities.
SteveW

[kkw]

Steve.
if this guy is anything like our local HS owner, then he will not give a hoot.

[steve wenban]

Thats true Klaus but reputation through word of mouth or in this case electronic media can bite and bite hard ,that being said http://www.airsportsrc.com.au/ is excellent
to deal with ;) unpaid politcal announcement ! as well As NQRC and ExtremeRC and a lot of other fair dinkum model suppliers who are also good blokes.
SteveW

[glydr]

Word of caution from the new mod...

There are rules about posting in a way which cuts others down - particularly other forum members. But perhaps more importantly there are more eyes on these threads than those that type. The fellow that is the subject of much of this conversation may have already read whats here. I give this warning as he may choose courses of action which are within his power to make things difficult for, say, parkflying.

I'm not going to delete posts or lock threads (at this stage) as people should be able to get on RCG and find information to inform decisions about hobby shop patronage.

As Steve says above - there are blokes who hang around the forums, help people and sell modelling supplies... lets give them our business!

As for proprietors who are other words beginning also with P - I hope that threads like this enlighten potential customers.

Lets keep it toned down,

Thanks.

</mod hat>

[glydr]

Note - not aiming anything at anyone in particular - just noticing something which might escalate into something worse and giving it a 'nip'.

This is the second most important skill in parenting toddlers and comes quite naturally to me.

The most important skill in parenting toddlers is being able to locate a particular toy (or part thereof) within 30 seconds of its request which is likely to be hid anywhere in the house... that skill I have trouble with!!

[steve wenban]

You need and LTA Graham I'll let you figure it out lol.
SteveW

[glydr]

Lost Toy Alarm??

At 6:30 am today I was asked for Buzz Lightyear's laser arm (which came off despite two layers of epoxy). Not a chance!

[steve wenban]

Isnt Paul making some ??
SteveW

[yogorilla]

Graham, there is no glue known to mankid that can stand up to the stresses of toddlers toy repairs...

[yogorilla]

Actually I think paul could expand on his market a bit here, he could sell the LMA as...

LRA - Lost Remote Alarm, never lose the tele remote again
LKA - Lost Key Alarm, help me get to work on time
LSA - Lost Sock Alarm, waterproofing could be an issue
LHA - Lost Husband Alarm, imagine how fast that screeching would get him kicked out of the pub and sent on his way home!

[steve wenban]

And of course for those with really bad memories like mine a LAA Lost Alarm Alarm
SteveW

[gouch]

The fellow that is the subject of much of this conversation may have already read whats here. I give this warning as he may choose courses of action which are within his power to make things difficult for, say, parkflying.


What? Have you been contacted by him, or are you just guessing this?

I wouldn't know this guy from a bar of soap, but it seems as though you are saying "stop giving him a hard time or he will retalliate"


I'm not going to delete posts

I thought deleting posts was not something done by mods? Just clarifying thanks.

[Extreme_RC]

I have heard similar stories about "that" shop, and the one time I called to ask about some gear his phone manner was so rude and condescending I felt like doing a freddy kreuger through the phone and strangling him!

I have also heard about him at Doncaster, in fact he is so well known it should really be an embarrassment for the man to show his face!

[glydr]

I haven't been contacted by him or anyone... just reminding people that this is a public forum free for all to see. Never met the fellow - and certainly don't want to given his reputation - but it seems to me that he is the sort of fellow who would retalliate... perhaps he would use his position as retailer and club president to have council rangers prevent parkflying because a bunch of parkflyers make comments about him.

Given this fellow's influence in modelling around melbourne I think it important that someone who googles "Cliff" and "Hawthorn" might find out what sort of guy he is in this thread before joining his club. Just asking everyone to make sure it doesn't become too great a sling match. Simple facts are great: e.g. "he wouldn't teach me to fly because I bought my plane elsewhere"

And deleting posts is possible by a mod.

[gouch]

When was the deleting brought in? I remember a while back it was stated by Jim that NO posts are deleted, the spam and dribble gets chucked in the bucket and locked, but nothing was actually deleted by you guys. It was originally when I first joined, but then was changed, I guess it has gone back again..... To quote a famous ex mod....... Not Happy JAN :rolleyes:

That is the one feature this place has/had over rcuniverse. They delete (may be post tense now?) posts willy nilly, and at least a while ago a lot of the time it appeared to be the ones that contradicted the retail support of the forum itself. This was why Jim was against it, to keep it there for all to see, good or bad. The ones that require a warning used to get hidden until the editing was done by the original poster, if they didn't then it stayed hidden, not deleted.


Getting back to " the master flyer" . Why run from someone who isn't actually chasing you? And if he is, turn around.

Just asking everyone to make sure it doesn't become too great a sling match

No argument there. :)

[steve wenban]

Now a mocking session hmmm
SteveW

[glydr]

I've never deleted a post or thread without being asked to do so yet (e.g. "pls. delete... item is sold")