550 Motor 3 Turn - 18 Gauge - whatcha think ?

[JustGoFly]

We're experimenting with a soon to be released line of 500/550 size motors and I'm experimenting with some winds. We will release this line as DIY kits as well as fully wound motors. But my question is whether you guys have tried a 18 gauge wind ? It's very thick and I believe I can get 4 turns on this beast. What amazed me was it took forever to burn off the coating, so I assume the heat disipation and size of the wire will enable this motor to handle huge amps. Hopefully in excess of 500 Watts. I want a high Kv around 3000-3500 and expect 3 or 4 turns to hit the mark with a Wye setup.

Anyone have experience with this type of wind ?

Dual 25 gauge six turn Delta resulted in a 1900 Kv monster - but I want more RPM and will feed it properly on many amps to get extreme speed on some Jets.

Vinnie

[mlh1961]

VINNIE,

I'm interested.... as you know I like LOTS of rip'ems.

I got 74 out of one of your 400DF's drawing 37 amps.

Let me know when they will be available....... cost?......BETA TESTER???

Mitch

[ecologito]

Just go fly, what are the specs on this motor, Stator dimensions / mag poles?

I've read about motors being able to handle 500 watts and even more, using 15 gauge wire 9 turns.

" 5s Lipoly and 25Amps = 462Watts power input
then you will have 365Watts output at the shaft by round about 6700 rpm.
then you should use a 13" x 11" or a 14" x 7" prop - depending on needed thrust and pitch speed ".

[JustGoFly]

Mitch - PM Sent. 74mph on a 400DF - oh man you are insane :)

Eco - I don't want a 200+ gram motor. So weight is definately in consideration for this motor and will limit the top end.

I do want two different styles of the larger motor - one low Kv and one fairly high Kv. Personally I don't think the Low Kv has a huge market since you're much more efficient driving 13 and 14 inch props with a gearbox on a light motor at lower amps. Decrease Kv and you increase resistance, lowering the max amps a motor can handle. So a high Kv motor that can run a Jet or Wing 150+ mph direct drive or a 4 lb airplane geared is what I'm thinking of. But we will have a variety and low Kv will be one of them.

More details shortly, but sizes will remain vague until we formally introduce the motors. Think Wider than the current JustGoFly motors, relatively light, Quiet, very powerful and affordable. High Quality, Low Cost.

Vinnie

[ecologito]

That sounds good Vinnie, if possible add me under mitch's name for the beta testers :) I will be back in the Carolinas sometime soon.. so I will be honored to test some or your projects :)

[mlh1961]

Yeah,

That little 400DF is a work horse....6x4 prop, 37 amps.....blowin' & goin' :eek: :D

[JustGoFly]

How'd you guys like to put your winding knowledge to use on these babies ? We'll have DIY kits available soon ? Magnets are in place, but axle will need to be installed. Axles are currently 4mm, but we're turning them down to 3.17 to be more standard. You'd have to tell me specifically what Kv, and use your after since I have some in mind and want guys that are interested in fairly general uses of the motor, although I do want to hit that 150mph high speed mark - which I think is a narrow market. That same motor - like the 450TH - should be capable of flying the larger heli's, Jets, and Wings.

Thanks for your interest,
Vinnie

[mlh1961]

GI-me, gimmee, gimmeeee, lots o rip-em's. I' have an AeroCat that I have to break 100 with!!!!!!!!
Mitch

[fly_boy99]

Mitch-

You could always build your own!!!

heh

Century Motor Single Stator - have a search!!!

[JustGoFly]

Fly-boy, How'd you get 8 turns of 20 gauge on that tiny stator ? Nice job !

Have you flown with it yet ? What Kv was it ? Depending on the airframe - you're going to need a static speed of 120 or more to get over 100 in the air level flight.

Vinnie

[fly_boy99]

Vinnie-

I'm about to tear 6mm depron apart with my new Alleycat which I dubb the Speed Kat. It can go over 100mph on the motor but I doubt the airframe can support it. I'll settle for the 80-90mph range... ;)

It will go north of 250W on a single stator... not bad eh?

I'm doing a Thunderbird scheme on it and hopefully I'll finish that tonite to do a maiden tomorrow. I'm also in the process of lathing parts for the next one so it won't be so prototype-ish.

fb

p.s. The winding wasn't easy but I think I can wind it a bit more "professional" now. The Kv that I calculated came out north of 2000Kv, like 2300Kv. I used Mumtats and it came out with 2342Kv. Ro of .041.

[mlh1961]

I have been eyeing your 100 mph single and the Mega Beater thread. I have some extra 20mm stators around, just got to find time to do some winding, and get the cans.

I have some other stuff that I have wond, but haven't found the hilt on yet, so to speak.

Mitch

[grumman5277]

hey Vinnie,
I would like to see a 2200kv (or close to ) that can push 30amps. I think it would be suited for high cell count (4s) wings.
Jeremy

[fly_boy99]

Vinnie-

Did the 550 ever happen?

I may have some very interesting data around 3T and 2T motors pushing way over 500 watts.

B

[JustGoFly]

Vinnie-

Did the 550 ever happen?

I may have some very interesting data around 3T and 2T motors pushing way over 500 watts.

B

B - 500 Watts is no problem, 4S is no problem. The 500's can handle both without sweating. What we found in testing was that the 500's were so good that we couldn't find a reason to provide a 550. The efficiency did not improve, and the weight increased. The 500 is extremely capable and we will soon provide a 900 Kv 500 for 11x7 prop direct drive.

Maybe we didn't do enough testing on the 550's - the amp capacity was higher but like I said the 500 is already able to handle higher amps than you want to push. We found the 500 and 550 was able to take much more than 3T 18 and could handle 3T 15 gauge.

Since I want 150 + mph it may be worth revisiting the 550 or coming up with a slightly larger motor. To achieve significant difference in the 500 and 550 we may need a bigger motor. The 500 competes with motors three times it's cost and twice it's weight.

I had some serious fun this past summer testing these motors and now with indoor season am trying the same style 450's. My Tiger Moth and IFO can take on any indoor Jet. It's fun racing a plane designed for speed with something designed for slow fly and kicking their butt.

Testing of large gas conversion motors, high speed racing motors and very efficient large prop direct drive continue.

Vinnie

[JustGoFly]

hey Vinnie,
I would like to see a 2200kv (or close to ) that can push 30amps. I think it would be suited for high cell count (4s) wings.
Jeremy

Jeremy,

Yes a 2200 on 4S is great on large wings. A 3380Kv (500TH (http://www.justgofly.com/tech500TH.htm)) on 4S is 130 mph on small wings. Check out the video of RCWorks Project X JustGoFly 500TH (http://www.rcworks.com/guest/rcworksguest/videos/PROJECTXX.wmv)

But a 2200 on a 6x4 prop on 4S would be extremely nice. Only problem is that it requires a larger motor and MAYBE would be ideal on the 550. The 500T is 1900 Kv and I haven't done alot of testing of it myself on a 4S - but should be able to handle a 6x4 prop.

The extra ~3000 RPM of a 2200Kv would add 11 mph static and some more thrust at higher amps. I think you have likely nailed the right setup for the 550. Only issue is as time flys by guys now want 5S, 6S on the same prop and Kv for around 185 static and 150 mph in the air. This would require even larger than the 550.

More soon,
Vinnie

[grumman5277]

I have some beta motors similar to yours being sent to me to test. They are 2200kv with a 30+ limit. I plan on 4s setups to use with my kits. I have looked into your TH motors and the very good comments on 3s. I will post the info on the motors As soon as I get them,
Jeremy

[fly_boy99]

Vinnie-

Is the 500 a single stator setup or double? Yep it seems if you want to go
to 150 you will have to add some more lams and thicker wire to hit that.

Inrunners are so much more efficient for high speed. I just ran up a really nice motor last nite which impressed me alot for the amount of $$$ you pay.

B

[JustGoFly]

Vinnie-

Is the 500 a single stator setup or double? Yep it seems if you want to go
to 150 you will have to add some more lams and thicker wire to hit that.

Inrunners are so much more efficient for high speed. I just ran up a really nice motor last nite which impressed me alot for the amount of $$$ you pay.

B

500 is double - 550 is triple.

I don't think efficiency is due to your motor being an inrunner. Most likely it's low Kv and high torque motors can achieve efficiency fairly easily. We did one motor wind that was 700 Kv and I flew it for an 50 minutes on a 2200 mah battery and large prop. I normally fly that plane 10 minutes. That's something like 2.64 amps - assuming I used the full 2200 mah battery. It was a really boring flight - then I stuck in my 10 minute battery and had some fun. So you buy what you like and hopefully efficiency comes along with it.

The 150 mph motor will not be of this same style or size. It will be larger. I have a 220 mph 5 lbs of torque setup. When you get upto that type of power you start comparing it to gas power - something like a .60. I am running a few fuel planes to learn what's in the fuel guys brains, and it is just a completely different way of thinking. I don't envy them getting into electric. I think electric has many more variables to define a motor than just RPM and size. I have tested many motors and two motors of the exact same size and Kv are almost never the same in the amount of power and efficiency. Efficiency can not always define a motor either since I know heli guys are very sensitive to bogging and a more efficient motor will bog easier.

Anyway - there are alot of motors on the market. Anyone who can wrap wire around a stator is dumping all sorts of stuff on the market at great prices. For guys who do park flying this is great - but not usually ideal for guys who want high speed. The guys I sell to keep coming back - so that tells something about our products and service. If you want to see what power is - check out the 500TH videos and this one:
http://www.leonluke.com/videos/Mike450.wmv

Vinnie

[grumman5277]

Vinnie, Still not sure why people still think inrunners are more eff as well as producing higher torque? An outrunner should have quite abit more. Most outrunners are balanced really well so high rmps are not a problem. The motors I am looking into have a 4mm shaft which should help. Maybe Im missing something but I havent seen any real differences between the two (inrunner-outrunner) other than mounting and damage resistance.
Jeremy

[fly_boy99]

Vinnie-

I'll highlight your own words.


500 is double - 550 is triple.

I don't think efficiency is due to your motor being an inrunner. Most likely it's low Kv and high torque motors can achieve efficiency fairly easily. We did one motor wind that was 700 Kv and I flew it for an 50 minutes on a 2200 mah battery and large prop. I normally fly that plane 10 minutes. That's something like 2.64 amps - assuming I used the full 2200 mah battery. It was a really boring flight - then I stuck in my 10 minute battery and had some fun. So you buy what you like and hopefully efficiency comes along with it.

The 150 mph motor will not be of this same style or size. It will be larger. I have a 220 mph 5 lbs of torque setup. When you get upto that type of power you start comparing it to gas power - something like a .60. I am running a few fuel planes to learn what's in the fuel guys brains, and it is just a completely different way of thinking. I don't envy them getting into electric. I think electric has many more variables to define a motor than just RPM and size. I have tested many motors and two motors of the exact same size and Kv are almost never the same in the amount of power and efficiency. Efficiency can not always define a motor either since I know heli guys are very sensitive to bogging and a more efficient motor will bog easier.

Anyway - there are alot of motors on the market. Anyone who can wrap wire around a stator is dumping all sorts of stuff on the market at great prices. For guys who do park flying this is great - but not usually ideal for guys who want high speed. The guys I sell to keep coming back - so that tells something about our products and service. If you want to see what power is - check out the 500TH videos and this one:
http://www.leonluke.com/videos/Mike450.wmv

Vinnie


In competition efficiency if very VERY VERY IMPORTANT!!! It will be the difference between winning and losing. Now I know folks buy outrunners from you to do 3D flying and some parkjet and wing flying but they are not flying F5D with your motors. Not to say there isn't a place for outrunners but when it comes to HIGH rpm the outrunner is really not the place to hang your hat.

I'll challenge anyone to built a high RPM motor even you Vinnie and I'll just go choose any NEU motor I want stick it in my Excite F5D and I will win hands down in a flat out race.

I'm not saying you cannot build high rpm motors from outrunners but at a certain point you just start building heat generators instead of speed generators. There is a point of diminishing returns.

B

[grumman5277]

Not to get anything started but Flyboy why not give them something to shoot for like your Excite F5D pink slip.

[JustGoFly]

I'll highlight your own words.

In competition efficiency if very VERY VERY IMPORTANT!!! It will be the difference between winning and losing.

Define Competition - is this a long flight time or speed ?

We do make high speed outrunners - and low speed. My $60 500TH is replacing many NEU motors in Heli's and will certainly drive you glider very fast - check HeliFreak for 500TH. If you competition if flight time then the 400T would keep you up there at under 10 amps for a long time and is loved by glider guys. None of the F5D guys have tried it since I know nothing about F5D and I only recommend what I know works. I'm betting you're running a 4+oz motor though.

Now I know folks buy outrunners from you to do 3D flying
Not sure where you're getting your info since I don't have a 3D motor and sell mostly to high speed flyers and heli guys.

not flying F5D with your motors.
You could be right but some glider guysfly the 400T - just not for high speed. 500TH is our entry into high speed.

Not to say there isn't a place for outrunners but when it comes to HIGH rpm the outrunner is really not the place to hang your hat. We're doing 35,000 RPM on the 500Th. Is this high speed ? Maybe I'm low on my RPM figures in the class you are defining - but was that class the original topic of this discussion and the only one that would define the value of an Outrunner ?

I'll challenge anyone to built a high RPM motor even you Vinnie and I'll just go choose any NEU motor I want stick it in my Excite F5D and I will win hands down in a flat out race.
In a Race there is ONE Winner defined by the highest speed plane/and power system. Are you saying that is the only acceptable criteria for selling a motor ? I think I'd be targetting 1% of the market if I chose those constraints. The $180 motor will win over our $60 motor so if that is the case - we gladly forego that class since we focus on keeping the price down. I guess it depends on what you consider valuable. We'll give them a good run though and will be lighter and run cooler. We have won against some $180 motors with the 500TH, but it has not been looked at in F5D since it's a very new motor.

I'm not sure we're understanding each others perspective. You're obviously fond of inrunners, but claim to know my business when in fact you do not.

Vinnie

[fly_boy99]

First off grumman - got a pink slip you want to lose? yeah right....

Vinnie-

In order to compete with inrunners in F5D you would first try and figure out how to fit an outrunner in a narrow fuse of a F5D ship and win. I know of no-one that competes in F5D within FAI that is using an outrunner. Btw, how many watts does it take to do 35k rpm on the 500T?

I never said there wasn't a market for your motor. On the contrary, it would seem the Esskay motor, a motor very similar to the motors you sell very well at Hobby Lobby.

Define Competition - is this a long flight time or speed ?

We do make high speed outrunners - and low speed. My $60 500TH is replacing many NEU motors in Heli's and will certainly drive you glider very fast - check HeliFreak for 500TH. If you competition if flight time then the 400T would keep you up there at under 10 amps for a long time and is loved by glider guys. None of the F5D guys have tried it since I know nothing about F5D and I only recommend what I know works. I'm betting you're running a 4+oz motor though.


Not sure where you're getting your info since I don't have a 3D motor and sell mostly to high speed flyers and heli guys.

Found this on your site:

"300ST and 400ST Brushless Motor

Click to enlarge

3D Motors
Great on Park Flyers, 3D or any plane 12oz's or less
"


You could be right but some glider guysfly the 400T - just not for high speed. 500TH is our entry into high speed.

We're doing 35,000 RPM on the 500Th. Is this high speed ? Maybe I'm low on my RPM figures in the class you are defining - but was that class the original topic of this discussion and the only one that would define the value of an Outrunner ?

I'll let you do the math. To be competitive in F5D you need to be around 185-200mph to keep up. That's inflight and not static numbers.


In a Race there is ONE Winner defined by the highest speed plane/and power system. Are you saying that is the only acceptable criteria for selling a motor ? I think I'd be targetting 1% of the market if I chose those constraints. The $180 motor will win over our $60 motor so if that is the case - we gladly forego that class since we focus on keeping the price down. I guess it depends on what you consider valuable. We'll give them a good run though and will be lighter and run cooler. We have won against some $180 motors with the 500TH, but it has not been looked at in F5D since it's a very new motor.

Criteria is set by a world body called the FAI.

I'm not sure we're understanding each others perspective. You're obviously fond of inrunners, but claim to know my business when in fact you do not.

Actually Vinnie I've built a great deal of outrunners myself and I am merely trying to point out each motors differences. I believe right now I have a motor that is the most amp hungry of any motor out there. Does it make it a good motor, certainly not, but there may be an application in EDF.

Build a sub 38mm diameter motor and do F5D speeds and I'll be the first one to consider buying your motor!!!

B

Vinnie

[JustGoFly]

In order to compete with inrunners in F5D you would first try and figure out how to fit an outrunner in a narrow fuse of a F5D ship and win. I know of no-one that competes in F5D within FAI that is using an outrunner. Btw, how many watts does it take to do 35k rpm on the 500T?


500TH - not 500T. I'd say about 400+ Watts. I notice some of these planes run 90 amp ESC's.

I never said there wasn't a market for your motor. On the contrary, it would seem the Esskay motor, a motor very similar to the motors you sell very well at Hobby Lobby.

Geeze Fly_boy99 - ever walk up to a 8 cyl Mustang and compare it to a VW Bug ? No comparison of Esskay and my motors. Esskays are little 110 watt outrunners.

Hey - I'll admit that I have no motors for the F5D and not pursue this matter and further. I don't recall ever saying these or any outrunners were appropriate for the F5D - but I might just pick one up to prove otherwise.

Vinnie

[grumman5277]

Flyboy,
Neu motors are very simlar with the only difference being that they are an inrunner.
He uses laminations just like the outrunners. Now make an outrunner with the same amount of laminations same windings and add a rear bearing for the back of the can and your in buisness. I have already designed a motor like this just havent gotton around to building it yet. The only reason most of these companies havent went in that direction is the same reason Li-poly batteries are not assembled to fit in thin flying wings. The larger part of the market does not fly F5D nor does the larger part of the market have 2k to invest in one plane. I think a turbine would be a better money pit for that kind of cash. Once the flood slows down from all the newbe's coming into the hobby these guys will have to branch out into the other markets to stay competitive.

Just because no one has made one yet doesn't mean you are in anyway correct where EFF is concerned. How many outrunners have you made to apply to this F5D application and if so show your work. You also made the comment that outrunners wont fit,last time I checked a 28mm motor is still only 28mm in dia.

If I have to I'll go ahead and order the $40 in bearings and fire up the lathe. I have built alot of cd rom based motors for my own applications,and this in no way would be a stretch. The funny thing is that with all the cost involved I still wouldnt have $200+ in one motor.

[fly_boy99]

The offer stands.

Build any motor you want. Get a comparable sized F5D plane.

Flat out speed race... you will lose.

Efficiency does matter, outrunners at high rpm are great at becoming heaters. If you do a search on some of my posts you will see that I have run high rpm and high watt outrunners. Heck how about a weight to weight comparison, you will be nowhere near what inrunners can do.

Outrunners are good for certain applications and inrunners theirs. I don't see why you guys cannot see this.

This is based on experience and not guesstimation.

B

[JustGoFly]

Fly_Boy, all motors are not the same. All outrunners do not run hot. Also just to get a perspective of what you use - what are the specs on the motors you run in your F5D ? You have not tested the right outrunners.

Also since I know nothing about F5D's - send me a link to one that is most popular. I am attending a show this week and will look for one.

What size prop do you run ?

What weight is your F5D ?

Vinnie

[fly_boy99]

The Excite F5D is an airframe that has won alot of comps including the FAI Worlds.

Give the guys at stratair a call, they are good guys.

All the info is there,
B



Fly_Boy, all motors are not the same. All outrunners do not run hot. Also just to get a perspective of what you use - what are the specs on the motors you run in your F5D ? You have not tested the right outrunners.

Also since I know nothing about F5D's - send me a link to one that is most popular. I am attending a show this week and will look for one.

What size prop do you run ?

What weight is your F5D ?

Vinnie

[INewton]

The main problem with outrunners is the stator laminations. A 12 pole outrunner at 35k rpm has magnet losses equivalent to a 70k rpm 6 pole inrunner. Unless you can get .2 mm lams (like those in competition inrunners) there's no hope!

Once the lamination problem is solved, there might be a slight edge to outrunners if the required rpm is in the 30k rpm range (so the inrunner gearbox losses can be avoided, since the power/weight ratio for inrunners is best near 50k rpm).

[fly_boy99]

Newt-

I'm still on the search for the elusive 12pole capable ESC which can turn over 30k rpm without igniting into flame. Most likely Vinnie is using a 6pole for 35k rpm although I don't know what prop he was using but he did say it was around 400W I think.

I actually had one do this just recently. It purported to do 40k rpm with 14magnetpoles.

Guess not,
B

[grumman5277]

Take a look at Neus site. A clear view of the stator. Mulit wire 12 pole 4 magnet motor.
I know this is only one of his motors and does not account for the rest.

Inrunner outrunner = both heat genreators if operated beyond their designed capabilities. There are alot of claims made by a variety of people about the differences in both designs. I want a very clear test of the two differnet motors with the same design criteria. I.E stator DIA/Thickness-Wire ga./Turns ect. And see where the differences really are.

[JustGoFly]

Fly_boy - less poles = higher RPM. 500TH is 6 pole.

Grumman - 4 magnet - 12 pole. I think you mean 12 post, 4 pole. I'm betting very high Kv and still only 2 oz's ? No I think much heavier.

So in comparison to NEU are you looking at the 1105 motors or some heavy motor. Any chance we could do apples to apples comparison ?

As for 550 - we're working on a low Kv version fo use in airplanes that will run a 11x7 prop. Certainly not appropriate for a F5D.

Vinnie

[johnrobholmes]

I am very interested in the 500 and 550 series with 3.17mm shaft. About 2 ounces they are? Would you be willing to do some production with 16 mags and about 1000kv? I need a torque monster.

[JustGoFly]

The plan is a 800 or 900 Kv torque monster. The 800 should run a 12x8 prop. The 500 size 900 kv runs the 11x7 prop very efficiently. Many motor manufacturers think 1000 Kv is the ideal motor, and the market is flooded with this size motor. I have a great 950 Kv 450XT - so I don't intend to make a bigger version - I think running a larger prop would be ideal for this class. It has the ability to be modified with a bell change for another sweet spot of 1380 and/or 1550.

Off to the WRAM Show in Westchester. Chat with ya next week.

Vinnie

[grumman5277]

Vinnie, That correct but what I was trying to say is that his motors that are used in F5D are around 4oz and up. What everyone is neglecting to realize is that there are numerous inrunners that are also inefficient for their size and weight. I have bought 2 motors I wish I wouldnt have IE Himax-MPJet. several yrs ago these were top notch.

I would like to see a side to side comparison between an outrunner and an inrunner with the only physical difference being the can.

[fly_boy99]

Fly_boy - less poles = higher RPM. 500TH is 6 pole.

I said your motor was a 6pole.

Grumman - 4 magnet - 12 pole. I think you mean 12 post, 4 pole. I'm betting very high Kv and still only 2 oz's ? No I think much heavier.

Depends on which motor you choose.
==============================
All 11 series motors have 12 slot stators and 4 poles rotors
All 15 series motors have 12 slot stators and 4 poles rotors
All 19 series motors have 24 slot stators and 8 poles rotors
All 22 series motors have 12 slot stators and 4 poles rotors

So in comparison to NEU are you looking at the 1105 motors or some heavy motor. Any chance we could do apples to apples comparison ?

Let's compare the 1105/2.5Y motor(4000Kv) which has a max rating of 35A and can do up to 4S but it seems to be better in the 3S range. Max watts should be near 350W. It weighs 2.3oz and can do 162mph and 45oz of thrust for 35A input for an efficiency of 88.2%. I played with props a bit to get the max. So a cutdown 4.75x4.75 to a 4.2x4.75 would do the trick.

So the 500T would be very close in weight for 2oz. The stated maximums are also very close.

Catahuladave said this about 500T:
The tach said its close 28k and that was a 4.7x4.25 36amps, too much. That's around 120mph, unloaded it went 127 as he stated in this thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624826
He also used a cutdown prop.

As for 550 - we're working on a low Kv version fo use in airplanes that will run a 11x7 prop. Certainly not appropriate for a F5D.

Low Kv outrunners are great for this purpose.

Vinnie

I've built an outrunner that will do about 130mph and have posted it here on RCG for all to see and replicate. I wish you no ill will. I think you have a good product for what folks want. I have come to the conclusion of going down the road you want to go down is that at a certain point there are diminishing returns. I currently have a double stator motor which is wound with very thick wire and has done over 75A draws on 2S!!!! I have another that has done over 50A draws on 3S!!!! Both motors have killed ESC's and the motors are still rock solid. What application do they have? Well right now they are great at generating heat and doing little else.

Maybe if I find a good fan application there might be a good home for these motors. ;)

B

p.s. Since Excite F5D's are a bit expensive I'd say an inexpensive way is to try and replicate this type of performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nxgGaGj94

The motor weight 4oz so I'm sure the triple you are thinking should fall close to that category too.

[grumman5277]

I think Nues motors use a little longer stator than a 3 stack. I have a few 19mm stators on hand to keep cost down but I am looking at a 4 to 5 stack maybe a 6.
The length will be 35 to 40mm without shaft. The back of the can will have an oversized bearing (100k-vxb) to support the back of the can.

May be a few years ago not sure of exactly where but there was someone who built an absolutely insane outrunner at least a 6stack. I kinda looked around but no luck. This would be a better example of what I am talking about.

Flyboy,sounds like you have built a few amp eaters but it also sounds like they are very limited due to the stator length. If those guys are building close to Mega beaters with a 2 stack build the motor equal in lenght and weight and see where it goes. I would imagine the rotating mass would be higher as well as EFF. Not trying to poke at you I just want to show you why there is a difference. The biggest differences are the copper /stator/and magnets. Built equally in physical weight and content the performace should be very very close.

[fly_boy99]

I think Nues motors use a little longer stator than a 3 stack. I have a few 19mm stators on hand to keep cost down but I am looking at a 4 to 5 stack maybe a 6.
The length will be 35 to 40mm without shaft. The back of the can will have an oversized bearing (100k-vxb) to support the back of the can.

May be a few years ago not sure of exactly where but there was someone who built an absolutely insane outrunner at least a 6stack. I kinda looked around but no luck. This would be a better example of what I am talking about.

Flyboy,sounds like you have built a few amp eaters but it also sounds like they are very limited due to the stator length. If those guys are building close to Mega beaters with a 2 stack build the motor equal in lenght and weight and see where it goes. I would imagine the rotating mass would be higher as well as EFF. Not trying to poke at you I just want to show you why there is a difference. The biggest differences are the copper /stator/and magnets. Built equally in physical weight and content the performace should be very very close.

I hear you when it comes to stator length but you must realize that as you add stator lams it becomes increasingly harder to elevate the Kv because now you are putting more copper per area in there. Problem is there is always a tradeoff. I can go with a double, try and put some large wire and terminate delta such that it will handle the load. Or I can utilize multiple strands of higher guage wire and put more turns on there also terminating delta. Although the latter will have a lower ability to handle peaks.

I have a triple that I have built up with 5T of 20g which I had it originally going for a nice combo of speed and thrust. I could change out to 6poles and get about 3000Kv. The wye termination won't hold up to draws more than 30A for extended peroids, probably less unless you have good cooling. Now Delta that would hold up to 35A draw and could peak to 50A no problem. Maybe I'll give this a go but it seems Jon has already done this and got 130mph on 4S at about 38A.

I've done this on a double here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=510349&highlight=K283+speed

As you can see if I went up to say a 5 stators stacked it would be close to the Neu 11xx series length of 1.2". My doubles are roughly .75" already. I could use special lams to get the width down. You would have bearing issues, and you would have to do maybe a 3T or 2T and terminate Delta to get a decent Kv. Well I guess there is always a first.

5 - 5mm stator lams(hopefully .35mm or lower)
6 N50 30mm long mags (possible to try 4poles)
Long freaking Can 34mm
Long stator mount with 4 bearings if possible
16G wire for 3T/2T Delta

This would be a crazy proof of concept and I doubt the efficiencies would be anywhere near the same. I'll see if I can get the parts....

[INewton]

fb,

I'm with you on smokin' the ESCs, but that's why I'm a 6S kind'a guy.

I've been using el cheapo S60s at about 40A and 22V with my KH283 (modified) outrunners at 28k to 33k rpm. 20g or 21g wire in delta config seems to handle the current.

In fact, I'm now testing a 10S KH283 size outrunner at 36V and 40A for an F5D using a CC45HV.

Voltage is KING (so are embedded centrifugal fans)

Hey, with more lams - raise the voltage!!!!!!!!

And, you can solve the bearing issues by press-fitting all the components on the shaft (this is a must do at 30k rpm). I always will go bigger in diameter than use a longer stack - 15mm is long enough. 30-35mm is a good can diameter up to 1.5KW (at 35K rpm).

I like the idea of replacing the f5D nose with a outrunner of the same diameter with the prop/spinner/blower attached to the bell and the rear attached to a bulkhead at the front of the 'sawed off' f5D fuselage...

[JustGoFly]

Vinnie, That correct but what I was trying to say is that his motors that are used in F5D are around 4oz and up. What everyone is neglecting to realize is that there are numerous inrunners that are also inefficient for their size and weight. I have bought 2 motors I wish I wouldnt have IE Himax-MPJet. several yrs ago these were top notch.

I would like to see a side to side comparison between an outrunner and an inrunner with the only physical difference being the can.

Ya - I know NEU are 4 oz motors and longer stators. A 4 oz motor is appropriate for a F5D as well - but not a 2 oz motor. So let's compare my new 13 oz 12S motors to the NEU 4 oz motors - eh ? :confused: I'll get ya over 200 mph with an 8 inch prop and 3D and take off verticle. BUT this also is totally inappropriate for an F5D.

Off to WRAM show - I really want to compare two identical Ham Sandwich's now - one toasted and another untoasted. Maybe this topic will give you something more interesting to discuss while I'm away. :rolleyes:

Vinnie

[grumman5277]

Vinnie, I think you have my comments totally off. I was not comparing your 550's to a Nue motor or F5D. I was conversing on the outrunner /inrunner issue and comments.

Flyboy,Watched the video ,sounds way up there in R's.40+k
My design will eliminate any dought weather an outrunner can go crazy r's
All you have to do is support the rear of the can with a bearing. Better have some lathe skills because theres a little more to it than what I have mentioned.
The shaft will have 2 bearings (100k) and the rear of the can will have one bearing also 100k which is about $50 just in bearings.

As for winds because of the longer length it would be better to use 22mm stators and at least 6 strands of 26 or similar in a 4 turn . The magnets from george or whoever will be quite a bit bigger than what Nue uses because he is limited by the inside Dia of his stators where outrunners are not. I have seens several companies who sell large diameter 4 pole curved magnets as one set. If I run across it again I will start a seperate thread.

[JustGoFly]

I'm just back from WRAM show. Got a chance to take a peek at an F5D - Excite plane and chat with some folks from North East Sail planes. They mentioned how the Excite is a dynamic soaring plane and uses the motor to get altitude but not necessarily the 200 mph speed that the plane achieves. It uses the updraft and constant cycling up and through the updraft to increase speed. The nose of the Excite is tiny - looks like about 1 inch. So although I was temped to plop down $400 for one of these sleek looking planes, I decided that unless we were going to design some very thin and extremely long motor - inrunners are most likely best for this style plane.

A couple guys mentioned how difficult it was to fly one of these tiny planes since it disappears when flying with it's side to you. The profile is so thin it needs a spotter to help watch the plane.

So - back on track. We plan on offering some low KV motors and some very large motors for gas conversions. I brought a 48 inch wing with me and a prototype 550 motor. I ran this setup on 3S and 4S and decided to jump to 5S. I purchased some 6S ELE ESC's for testing of the larger motors and decided to run the 550 on 5S. I plugged in the battery and pop - huge contact spark due to the high voltage and instantly fried the 60 amp ESC. So testing was delayed. Now how do those high voltage guys keep from causing the huge power surge when they plug in their batteries ?

Grumman - I understand you desire to do comparisons between inrunner and outrunner. Unfortunately I have no such desire. Comparing an inrunner vs outrunner doesn't prove that one format is better than another. Comparing two similar outrunners could provide a big difference in results as well and could never fairly be compared without biase. Dr. Kiwi is the only person who has fairly compared motors and very nicely charted the results. I respect his unbiased and scientific tests. My tests would be read meerly as advertising. The Mega 16/15/3 is the same Kv as my 400DF, 450TH and an ounce heavier. Which is appropriate for your setup and which is better ? I have my opinions and alot of data - but have no intention of turning this thread into an F5D or Inrunner vs Outrunner thread.

Vinnie

[grumman5277]

Agreeded,If my motors fall through Ill be looking for replacments. The place I ordered from 12 days later says they are on their way(yeah right). Reguardless future motors I use will be the 450th motors for my ARF's,
Jeremy

[fly_boy99]

Vinnie-

I wonder who you talked to from NEsail as the Excite won a recent F5D cup not that long ago and it did not do it via soaring.

lol!!! :p :p :p
B

I'm just back from WRAM show. Got a chance to take a peek at an F5D - Excite plane and chat with some folks from North East Sail planes. They mentioned how the Excite is a dynamic soaring plane and uses the motor to get altitude but not necessarily the 200 mph speed that the plane achieves.

[JustGoFly]

Vinnie-

I wonder who you talked to from NEsail as the Excite won a recent F5D cup not that long ago and it did not do it via soaring.
Guess I need to watch my words. Seems in a race it would be silly to slope soar. I don't think I said that racers would use a slow motor and slope soar. I said that many of the flyers of this model will use "Dynamic Flying" to increase speed. I recall reading an article of how this was discovered by how a certain type of bird flys - with minimal wing flapping over many miles. Some guys are exceeding 300 mph in this mode and it is not due to the motor. I'm sure guys run hot motors in the F5D and as I already said I am not building a motor for F5D.

I am also not building a 3T - 18 Gauge 550 - so maybe it's time to close this thread.

How about a video of one 550 prototype:
JustGoFly 550 Prototype Video in a RiteWing TL Wing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gscnyex3P08)

Vinnie