PDC-10 GPS guidance

[kd7ost]

I have had a few guys still asking me if I have any of the original UNAV PDC-10’s left. Enough interest that I’m considering having another small batch made up if there is enough interest. I sold them off at a discount last time as I got them on a good deal but this time have to start with going to a board house and fund the build from scratch. This means they will sell at the original UNAV price of 150.00 plus 6.00 S&H. If you use paypal I will also have to charge a token fee to cover what paypal charges. Probably an additional 4.00.

How much interest is there among you guys before I commit?

What is a PDC-10? This unit interfaces between a handheld GPS with a serial output with the output set to NMEA 0183. Prior to takeoff you select a route or a waypoint in the GPS. As long as the PDC-10 is disabled through a spare channel it is transparent to the steering pulse. I employ it on rudder for steering with yaw and have a co-pilot for roll and pitch control. It is a true failsafe mechanism for certain conditions. When you enable the device, it will take over steering control and guide your aircraft to the waypoint(s) pre-selected. The manual would be available in PDF-form.

I don’t use it to fly autonomously although it can be done. I use it in conjunction with a PCM radio on flights that stay with the range of my RC system. It prevents the chance of a fly away due to outside interference or many other catastrophic type flight scenarios. A must for flying by video if you accidentally stray outside the range of your RC system. Coupled with a handheld GPS and a co-pilot, the plane will fly right back to you.

Ring in here if you’re interested. This will determine if I invest in a board run.

Dan

[MX]

Sounds interesting. Where can we find out more about the PDC-10?

MX

[kd7ost]

I can send you the PDF-file to read.

But, (and forgive me if I'm wrong) aren't you the guy that tells people if they want to fly via video to get a flight simulator?

Dan

[MX]

I can send you the PDF-file to read.

But, (and forgive me if I'm wrong) aren't you the guy that tells people if they want to fly via video to get a flight simulator?

Dan

:rolleyes: Well, I only said that once, and it was to the guy that wanted to sit in his living room and fly using his big screen TV. Big difference between wanting to do that versus flying at the field and using downlink video for data telemetry and photo framing.

MX

[kd7ost]

My sincere apologies.

Every once in a while someone hammers us for what we do so a guy can get a little quick to take on a defensive posture. That’s the post I recall as a matter of fact so I obviously didn’t understand your intentions with him.

I’ll send you a PM with my e-mail address. I can send you the PDF file to an address you send me but it’s too big to fit in the message section here.

Dan

[MX]

My sincere apologies.

Every once in a while someone hammers us for what we do so a guy can get a little quick to take on a defensive posture. That’s the post I recall as a matter of fact so I obviously didn’t understand your intentions with him.

I’ll send you a PM with my e-mail address. I can send you the PDF file to an address you send me but it’s too big to fit in the message section here.

Dan

No, I'm not against this stuff at all. I do get a bit wary when guys post here wanting to know how to make guided missiles with this stuff.

I do aerial photography for fun and occasional profit. I build an infrared remote controlled camera switch (http://www.hexpertsystems.com/prism) for AP. I have a video downlink and an overlay board. I build an altimeter (http://www.hexpertsystems.com/zlog) that outputs data to the OSD (http://www.icircuits.com/prod_osd232.html) so I can get live altitude information. My micro GPS should be here in a couple days.

My interest is similar to what you stated in the first post. I want to use GPS and a copilot to assist the pilot (me) in flying his mission.

Regarding the PDC-10, I was interested in size, weight, interfaces, etc. UNAV no longer seems to have any data on their website.

Thanks,

MX

[kd7ost]

No, I'm not against this stuff at all. I do get a bit wary when guys post here wanting to know how to make guided missiles with this stuff.


You're right about that. I'm always quick to try to police our ranks when I see that type of activity. It certainly doesn't do us any good.


I do aerial photography for fun and occasional profit.

That's my current focus as well.

I build an infrared remote controlled camera switch (http://www.hexpertsystems.com/prism) for AP. I have a video downlink and an overlay board. I build an altimeter (http://www.hexpertsystems.com/zlog) that outputs data to the OSD (http://www.icircuits.com/prod_osd232.html) so I can get live altitude information. My micro GPS should be here in a couple days.

I'm aware of your products and have read lots of customer reviews about the high quality.

My interest is similar to what you stated in the first post. I want to use GPS and a copilot to assist the pilot (me) in flying his mission.

Regarding the PDC-10, I was interested in size, weight, interfaces, etc. UNAV no longer seems to have any data on their website.

Thanks,MX

The PDC-10 works very well for that application. I've been using several on different planes for 3 years now. I've logged several thousand miles flying with them in place. (Not having them enabled mind you) but every time I need it or just chose to employ it, it performs as designed.

The one thing guys have to remember is that it won't work with a blind OEM GPS unit. The PDC-10 does not come with a waypoint management system. Therefore the GPS needs to do that. I have used Garmin's eTrex and geko 201 models. These have the added benifit of logging time and distance though. It's a built in run meter system to track maintenance times, resolve MTTF issues etc.

The UNAV Pico Pilot replaces the PDC-10 and PDC-20 and has a built in waypoint management system. It's a smaller unit as well.

Yb2normal has had a SS set up this way using a geko and PDC-10 though. Pretty neat piece of work from my favorite AV source.

http://yb2normal.com/UAV_SlowStick.html

PDF copy sent.

Dan

[MX]

...The one thing guys have to remember is that it won't work with a blind OEM GPS unit. The PDC-10 does not come with a waypoint management system. Therefore the GPS needs to do that. I have used Garmin's eTrex and geko 201 models.

PDF copy sent.

Dan

I also have a magellan handheld GPS that will do waypoint stuff. It's a bit heavy though.

Got the PDF, Thanks!

MX

[JettPilot]

I use a Garmin Gecko 201 with my PDC-10's. Its light and you can put in waypoints, change routes in without a laptop. Its great to be able to do all this stuff in the feild without hauling around the laptop.

The PDC-10 works great, I would recommend it to everyone, I have 3 of them :p and would like to get my hands on another... The price of 150 bucks is a bargain :) The new pico pilot costs several times that and you need a laptop to change any of its routes, waypoints, etc. You just cant beat the PDC-10.

JettPilot

[flyingwingfan]

Hey Dan, Tell me more about your pdc-10. Can you send me the manual too? Frank

[kd7ost]

Yes, but I need to have an e-mail address to send it to. The message board isn't big enough for it. PM with with the info and I'll get it to you.

Dan

[kd7ost]

Just an update.

The pieces and parts needed to make this happen aren't
going to come together. I will not be making any new PDC-10's.

Dan

[rclinks2002]

So there is no way to get a pdc 10?, or how about the board schematics (if you are willing to do that) Thanks

Ben Mitchell

[kd7ost]

Hi Ben,

I appreciate your wanting to get one. The files that are used to make the boards and program the PIC chips belong to UNAV. They have elected to not part with them. There are a couple of replacements in the works that I'm aware of. Unit's from other sources. We to have to wait until those get done.

Dan

[Tuner]

http://www.pad2pad.com/

Might want to try this company for the boards.

Just a thought.

Scott

[kd7ost]

The real value in any of these products is the program. The boards are easy to design and get done. I have access to getting my designs converted to gerber files so thats a non issue too. All the parts are quite available. But without the intellectual property that is the whole thing that makes the PIC chip work, there is no value. In cases like this you have to know how to write the code but you also need to understand how to parse the data from the GPS strings, (not too hard) and make the program send pulses out based on the input GPS information. It needs to be proportional with respect to track error. It needs to have a standard and inverse pulse both. (Normal and reverse). That's where most of us suddenly stop in making progress.

Code, we need code. ;)

Dan

[kd7ost]

The new run of PDC-10’s didn’t come about but it appears as there is a suitable sub becoming available. I don’t know anything about this device except to say it is supposed to work the same way as the PDC-10 does.

Good luck. If anybody uses one can you report back on the results?

Dan

http://scalerobotics.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30&osCsid=bb2fcc3c7fbc9278e67a024074a5f5b0

[bbstriker]

The new run of PDC-10’s didn’t come about but it appears as there is a suitable sub becoming available. I don’t know anything about this device except to say it is supposed to work the same way as the PDC-10 does.

Good luck. If anybody uses one can you report back on the results?

Dan

http://scalerobotics.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30&osCsid=bb2fcc3c7fbc9278e67a024074a5f5b0

Well, I just bought a ready built RCAP from Scalerobotics. Guess I'll be one of the first when it arrives.

I was let down by the AP4 guy- John. Agreed a price but I could npt conclude the purchase- through even when I offered to pay direct from US. Shame, I waited especially for his product and delayed my project. Maybe he'll come through - who knows?

BR
Tony

[hihptsi]

Well, I just bought a ready built RCAP from Scalerobotics. Guess I'll be one of the first when it arrives.

I was let down by the AP4 guy- John. Agreed a price but I could npt conclude the purchase- through even when I offered to pay direct from US. Shame, I waited especially for his product and delayed my project. Maybe he'll come through - who knows?

BR
Tony

ill be testing my RCAP unit this week sometime so look for a review coming soon.given i have anough time and some people are willing to help id like to add a altitude hold function to the RCAP.anyone willing to put some time into this?

[rclinks2002]

YES!!!! I would love to help with the altitude hold. I spent the good part of last night laying my bed in my dorm room thinking about how to go about controlling the altutude, and preventing the nose from dropping while in a large circumference turn.

[hihptsi]

YES!!!! I would love to help with the altitude hold. I spent the good part of last night laying my bed in my dorm room thinking about how to go about controlling the altutude, and preventing the nose from dropping while in a large circumference turn.


well to anyone willing to help with adding altitude hold to the rcap please give me a PM.it really should not be too difficult of a task to to add a alt hold function using a simple motorola pressure transducer and a little code..

[Hovertime]

Out of stock.... :(

[radiohound]

Out of stock.... :(

Sorry, just getting a shipment of some parts today. Should be good to go again:
http://www.scalerobotics.com/store/catalog

[Hovertime]

Just ordered a kit, heehaw!!! :D

PS am i dreaming or the price went up?;)

[hihptsi]

Just ordered a kit, heehaw!!! :D

PS am i dreaming or the price went up?;)


i believe he did increse the price slightly,it does take some time to solder these boards together properly,the prefinished boards are definatly a top notch solder job and are pretested.


Walter

[Hovertime]

Well I bought a kit, i love to solder stuff together ;)
Hope it works after I'm done w it LOL ...

[hihptsi]

Well I bought a kit, i love to solder stuff together ;)
Hope it works after I'm done w it LOL ...

hey hovertime noticed your from chicago i am as well,im out by streamwood.hopefully ill test the rcap in my aircraft this week.

Walter

[kd7ost]

Walt,

You should start a new thread on this and call it RCAP. It should probably get disconnected from the PDC-10 thread. ;)

Dan

[Hovertime]

Walter - I would love to see it go! If you want to meet up for that testing - pm me.

Its a good idea to start new thread about RCAP V2! :)

On topic-what are the main differences RCAP vs PDC-10 ?

[hihptsi]

Walter - I would love to see it go! If you want to meet up for that testing - pm me.

Its a good idea to start new thread about RCAP V2! :)

On topic-what are the main differences RCAP vs PDC-10 ?
good idea ill start another thread about it.

[Hovertime]

good idea ill start another thread about it.
Here it is guys: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=481694

[kd7ost]

Walter - I would love to see it go! If you want to meet up for that testing - pm me.

Its a good idea to start new thread about RCAP V2! :)

On topic-what are the main differences RCAP vs PDC-10 ?

I'm not aware of any side by side comparisons being done. Truth is the units have enjoyed a rather small distribution as far as can be told. The RCAP unit was always a "roll your own" device so it has even less distribution. With the PDC-10 not being produced anymore it now seems as though we'll be looking for the next unit to step up to the task. As the world of AP continues to grow, and the future of UAV regulations becoming restrictive, these type of devices work very well in a "return to pilot" scenario while the pilot is flying fringe range on the standard 72 Mhz RC system. (Provided you employ a failsafe style receiver) IMO these devices are just coming into there own with the advent of the way AP is growing. Anyhow, for all intents and purposes it sounds like the RCAP will function in a quite similar manner as the PDC-10. It looks like Walter will be reporting results as his weather permits and we anxiously await his test results.

Dan

[patrickegan]

http://www.u-nav.com/FAQs.html

"How does PICOPILOT compare with the RCAP ? The RCAP (RC AutoPilot Project) is not an autopilot, it's a NMEA->RC converter which simply reads the serial data from a handheld GPS receiver and converts it to an RC servo position. Similar to our (discontinued) PDC10 and the "Ezi-Nav", these devices don't actually perform any navigation function, the handheld GPS receiver does all of the waypoint management and navigation calculations. There are several limitations in using a commercial handheld GPS receiver for UAV navigation. The most obvious is the size and weight, often 8oz or more (with batteries). A more subtle limitation comes from the "smart route" feature found on most handheld GPS receivers. The (handheld's) route manager will skip to the nearest waypoint to begin navigating a route. This (irritating) feature effectively prohibits "round-robin" (A -> B -> A) flights because the unit will select the last waypoint (starting point) since it's the closest. Handheld navigation systems are really only useful for a "return to launch" function. Since the NMEA converter and handheld GPS only perform navigation, other functions have to be added to provide a complete autonomous capability. You'll also need an altitude hold and a wing-leveler. Like most simple controllers, the RCAP recommends the FMA "CO-PILOT" as a wingleveler while the "Ezi-Nav" actually incorporates the CO-PILOT electronics inside their box. The "CO-PILOT" is a horizon sensing attitude controller and will occasionally get "confused" by weather or terrain conditions, resulting in loss of control. Not only unreliable, an external wing-leveler will also cost you extra weight ( ~ 6oz).

PICOPILOT is much more sophisticated, it's a true autopilot and it provides all of the necessary functions to fly a plane autonomously. It reads the GPS data, manages waypoints, navigates to the waypoint, provides roll control (wing-leveling) and holds altitude. PICOPILOT performs all of these functions with a very small package ( 1.0" x 2.0" ) and very low weight (2.0 oz with GPS receiver). In fact, it's currently the worlds smallest UAV autopilot. Since PICOPILOT manages (32) waypoints internally, there are no route or waypoint limitations. The standard PICOPILOT comes with simple, easy to use software to program the waypoints. In fact, the new PICOPILOT-SP doesn't even require waypoint programming or even a computer connection, you simply fly your route manually the first time and the unit automatically creates the waypoints (in non-volatile memory) for "re-play" at any time in the future."

[radiohound]

There are several limitations in using a commercial handheld GPS receiver for UAV navigation. The most obvious is the size and weight, often 8oz or more (with batteries).

I agree, there are limitations, but the RCAP/PDC-10 style devices do fit a niche for people who want to experience waypoint auto-routing without breaking the bank. And if people are using a 8 ounce or more gps in their planes, they probably don't care about weight.

If they did care about weight, a Geko 201 weighs 3.1oz with batteries (88 g), 2.3oz without batteries.

[patrickegan]

Well, it looks like their (unav) new offering is only $500 and is self contained, no Garmin or laptop necessary.

http://www.u-nav.com/picopilot-sp.htm

[muc]

"all waypoints are programmed by first flying the route under manual control" :(

[kd7ost]

Patrick,

How does your unit work for you? ;) Could you tell us about your specific flight experiences with it and which version you have? I would like to hear about what plane you’re flying it on etc? What power system etc?

These devices appeal to quite different markets. They both serve a great but quite different purpose. Those most familiar with the products see their different virtues.

Dan

[patrickegan]

Dan,

I don’t have one as it really isn’t necessary for the type of photography that I’m doing. www.sky-borg.com I have spent some time talking to Dave about UNAV product and a GPS navigation error of +/- 50 ft would be impractical (catastrophic) as most of my flights are in more urban environs. With that said I was very impressed by the simplicity of the UNAV demo plane/Picopilot which weighed in at a whopping 25 oz. I was also happy to hear that after the demo in Sacramento, Dave felt inspired to launch the new Picopilot-SP. Did you know that little honey is “self programming”? http://www.u-nav.com/picopilot-sp.htm “and doesn't require any programming at all to perform a "return to launch" !”

muc

If I had more time I would probably opt for the Picopilot http://www.u-nav.com/picopilot.htm with all the trimming’s. With a little free time, a fella could have a pretty good time with one of those setups! :)

P.

[pistaandrea]

Hi people.
I used RCAP some time ago. It worked on little planes. When I put it on my 38ccm gas extra acrobat, it got nearly lost.
The RCAP powers the servo only at the time of turning. When the signal to the servo has been sent, the servo stays without power. If it is a big fast plane with a big rudder, the wind blows the rudder in to the center position, the plane stops turning. The GPS recognizes that the plane is not turning and gives another input for turn. The RCAP relays this to the servo with the power lasting just for a short time, then the servo stays without power until another relay. This goes on and on and the plane flies off track.

It took me some time to find out why the plane looks like it is going for the turn, but suddenly it stops.

Well, I am proud to announce that we have manufactured a device that has the same function like the PDC 10
It is not able to suspend cross track error yet, but we are working on it. You could load in the GPS two positions named FUN1 and FUN2. When the plane gets in to these positions, the unit sends signals to servos to do specified actions – take a picture or release a load.
The unit is set by a special program box. It is 4 times smaller and lighter than the RCAP, It powers the servo all the time,
Its function is very clear from the setting process on the ground, we are not sure about the price, but it should be about 350 dollars along with the JETI program box. The alt hold and speed hold are separate units that would be available too. We are testing it.

It flies with the geko 201 and I have to say it is capable of A-B-A route flying using a little trick which we have invented.
The trick is mentioned in the manual. If there is any interest let me know. The web page for the product is in progress.
We call the unit GPSRI – GPS rudder interface.

[air]

Your planned pricing might be a little high given that the U-Nav picopilot now sells for $500 including a GPS.

[kd7ost]

Hi people.
I used RCAP some time ago. It worked on little planes. When I put it on my 38ccm gas extra acrobat, it got nearly lost.
The RCAP powers the servo only at the time of turning. When the signal to the servo has been sent, the servo stays without power. If it is a big fast plane with a big rudder, the wind blows the rudder in to the center position, the plane stops turning. The GPS recognizes that the plane is not turning and gives another input for turn. The RCAP relays this to the servo with the power lasting just for a short time, then the servo stays without power until another relay. This goes on and on and the plane flies off track.

It took me some time to find out why the plane looks like it is going for the turn, but suddenly it stops.

Well, I am proud to announce that we have manufactured a device that has the same function like the PDC 10
It is not able to suspend cross track error yet, but we are working on it. You could load in the GPS two positions named FUN1 and FUN2. When the plane gets in to these positions, the unit sends signals to servos to do specified actions – take a picture or release a load.
The unit is set by a special program box. It is 4 times smaller and lighter than the RCAP, It powers the servo all the time,
Its function is very clear from the setting process on the ground, we are not sure about the price, but it should be about 350 dollars along with the JETI program box. The alt hold and speed hold are separate units that would be available too. We are testing it.

It flies with the geko 201 and I have to say it is capable of A-B-A route flying using a little trick which we have invented.
The trick is mentioned in the manual. If there is any interest let me know. The web page for the product is in progress.
We call the unit GPSRI – GPS rudder interface.


You should start a different thread on your product.

Dan

[pistaandrea]

Dan sorry I did not realize you were actually offering the PDC -10 here. I thought it was a dead thing no more available. I read the discussion properly this time. If it is still available, I would like to have two of them - to compare our GPRSI product with the PDC-10.
Could you confirm the PDC–10 is able to avoid the cross track error?
Could I have the PDF document of it?
Why the UNAV stopped making them? I think it is a great device to have on board.

[pistaandrea]

Your planned pricing might be a little high given that the U-Nav picopilot now sells for $500 including a GPS.

Yes I know. It is because of the program box. Some people might already have it. It is used for JETI brushless programming.
The price is not decided yet. I am aware of it being quite high. On the other hand I used Pico pilot, but newer got it flying my plane. Finally I returned it to the producer. It doesn’t mean it is not working, it only means I did not want to loose time setting it up. I did not like the way of loading the waypoints and so on.

[air]

I got picopilot installed and going in my plane in less than 3 hours (just had to adjust gains etc after that) and while I'd agree the waypoint application is a bit primitive, it does the job. Having said that I had studied the manuals well & had experience with much more sophisticated autopilots previous to that.

U-nav discontinued it because it was old tech I guess, with the basic pico-nav so cheap now I think it's unlikely to be reintroduced.

[Tom Harper]

Dan et al,

I have a PDC-10 and a PDC-20 that I am willing to sell. They have both been flown a couple of times. Comes with a Magellan connector,

Tom

[kd7ost]

Dan sorry I did not realize you were actually offering the PDC -10 here. I thought it was a dead thing no more available. I read the discussion properly this time. If it is still available, I would like to have two of them - to compare our GPRSI product with the PDC-10.
Could you confirm the PDC–10 is able to avoid the cross track error?
Could I have the PDF document of it?
Why the UNAV stopped making them? I think it is a great device to have on board.

Oh gosh no, they haven't been available for a while now. I just meant that if you were going to develop and sell a unit like the PDC-10, that it should have its own thread. This way folk know where to go to find your specific product. It shouldn't be in a thread about the PDC-10 or many people will miss it.

Dan

[pistaandrea]

Dan et al,

I have a PDC-10 and a PDC-20 that I am willing to sell. They have both been flown a couple of times. Comes with a Magellan connector,

Tom
Well I might like to get both
What is your price? Could somebody tell me if the PDC-10 is able to avoid cross track error?
If so is it really notable on its performance?
Could you post a photo of the units? Or better manual ? I haven’t seen it. Could not imagine how big it is

[Tom Harper]

pistaandrea et al,

$200 through PayPal takes them both. They have the original manuals.

I'll pay postage in US.

Tom

[pistaandrea]

pistaandrea et al,

$200 through PayPal takes them both. They have the original manuals.

I'll pay postage in US.



Tom

Tom I will take it. Send me your detail regarding the payment Iwill pass the adress where to send. How about my question regarding the cte

[kd7ost]

Tom I will take it. Send me your detail regarding the payment Iwill pass the adress where to send. How about my question regarding the cte

The code in the PDC-10 does use Cross Track Error for guidance.

Dan