Can a DIY Motor Perform As Well as a Mfg'd Motor?

[rmgmag]

Does anyone know of a DIY motor that has the same weight, thrust, and efficiency of a Little Screamer's Purple Peril?

I haven't one yet, but I'd like to try it, but I need a motor that is light (< 30 grams) and has plenty of thrust (14+ oz) on a 2 cell battery with a GWS HD 9x5 prop.

Bob

[olmod]

This was an old build of mine sometime back and with the advent of curved magnets from www.strongrcmotors.com and his parts im sure it would be close , have a yarn with Don he will advise also, cheers . :)
GB 22mm stator
12 5x5x1 n50 17t .5 xY
no load 11500rpm@7.5v

GWShd 7035 10000rpm@3amps =7.3oz thrust.

APCe 7x5 8000 rpm@5.5amps =300g=10.7oz.

APCe 8x6 6500rpm@7.75amps=380g=13.5oz.

[morphs]

We sell a kit version of our billet bullet. Very compairable in performance to L.S. You can read about them here. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422415

The kit prices are as follows:

Single Propsaver backplate- $29
Single Non-Saver backplate- $27
Single Propsaver tube mount- $26
Single Non-Saver tube mount- $23
Double Propsaver backplate- $34
Double Non-saver backplate- $32
Double Propsaver tube mount- $31
Double Non-saver tube mount- $28

Pm me if you would like a kit.

-Jon

[Littlescreamers]

We sell a kit version of our billet bullet. Very compairable in performance to L.S. You can read about them here. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422415

The kit prices are as follows:

Single Propsaver backplate- $29
Single Non-Saver backplate- $27
Single Propsaver tube mount- $26
Single Non-Saver tube mount- $23
Double Propsaver backplate- $34
Double Non-saver backplate- $32
Double Propsaver tube mount- $31
Double Non-saver tube mount- $28

Pm me if you would like a kit.

-Jon


Or you can order the "Original" Littlescreamer and save yourself the trouble of building.

Scott
Littlescreamers.com
Catch us if you can:D

[morphs]

Or you can order the "Original" Littlescreamer and save yourself the trouble of building.

Scott
Littlescreamers.com
Catch us if you can:D


He was specifically asking about kits!! Perhaps he likes to build??

Or you could order an "ORIGIANAL" Billet Bullet pre-built and have it in your
hands this week.

-Jon
CustomCDR
We don't race to catch up, we lap the competition!! :D
**WARNING** Never attempt to catch a Bullet..

[fwilly]

GB 20mm motors with curved mags or 5x4x1 n50s do pretty well. With a 3mm CF shaft, they can come in at 16 grams. If you can get the right size CF tube to make a bearing tube you can knock a little more weight off.

One good thing about DIY is that since you built it, you can rebuild it if it burns up. I regularly push 15 gram motors past 10 amps in 3mm depron 3d planes. Worst case senario, I replace to bell.


Morphs, how loud are the Billet Bullets?

[scratchandbash]

He was specifically asking about kits!! Perhaps he likes to build??

Or you could order an "ORIGIANAL" Billet Bullet pre-built and have it in your
hands this week.

-Jon
CustomCDR
We don't race to catch up, we lap the competition!! :D
**WARNING** Never attempt to catch a Bullet..

Maybe the overcompetion rule will be back in effect. :eek:

[Daveairway]

If you can get the right size CF tube to make a bearing tube you can knock a little more weight off.
(snip)


I just found the carbon tube that fits the CDR's for mounting bearings here http://www.komodohobby.com/ Pretty cool :)

On the left hand side of the page select:

DIY Materials

Carbon Fiber Tube

Carbon Fiber Rod



Dave

[Littlescreamers]

If you guys would bring something new? Something you designed all on your own? Not talking about your new package as that is nothing new? I am talking about the technical part?

Now I on the other hand have an all Lexan motor and since you all are using my old designs I have gone another leep forward:D

"Behold" The new Magnet design that I have come up with now!

These are a 2 pole magnet. They have a N and a S built into each 60 deg arc segment..
catch us if you can?
Your still trying? And always will be a step behind.

Marry Christmas

Scott
Littlescreamers.com
#1 in Micro brushless!

[ryanl2006]

Give me a break scott. You made a plastic motor. What advatage does a bipole magnet give? The only thing I could see would be you only have to put 6 magnets in the motor...but putting magnets in takes about 2 seconds to do.

Not sure what aluminum you used before your plastic, you and bob have both admitted that your cans bent very easily, but we have never had one come back with a bent bell.

I know you like to think everyone is following you and copying you, but trust me, you will never see plastic motors from the CustomCDR factory. And correct me if I am wrong, but by all Dr. Kiwi's tests of production version motors, the CustomCDR wins.

I try my best to play nice because I know there is enough room for two motor manufactures, but when you get to talking that everyone is out to copy you and steal your ideas I just can't keep quiet. Come off your high horse.

[fwilly]

I just found the carbon tube that fits the CDR's for mounting bearings here http://www.komodohobby.com/ Pretty cool :)

On the left hand side of the page select:

DIY Materials

Carbon Fiber Tube

Carbon Fiber Rod



Dave

Thanks for the heads up!!

8mm OD 6mm ID is great for 22.7 GB, and can be modded to work with 20mm. The last place I bougth that size from sent me some with an out of center ID. Hope this place is better :) .

For super light 20mms, Hornet (H1, not H2) tail boom is the best. Its 7mm OD 6mm ID. Its just really expensive and I haven't been able to find another source for similar stuff. I've still got some broken booms left from the Hornet FP I learned to hover on though :D .

[ryanl2006]

Just to refresh your memory Scott here is the link to Dr. Kiwi's test.... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4455986&postcount=274

You and Bob claimed you would be sending some super new awesome motor to Dr. Kiwi, but I have yet to see anything to beat our numbers. You tell me...

[morphs]

If you guys would bring something new? Something you designed all on your own? Not talking about your new package as that is nothing new? I am talking about the technical part?

Now I on the other hand have an all Lexan motor and since you all are using my old designs I have gone another leep forward:D

"Behold" The new Magnet design that I have come up with now!

These are a 2 pole magnet. They have a N and a S built into each 60 deg arc segment..
catch us if you can?
Your still trying? And always will be a step behind.

Marry Christmas

Scott
Littlescreamers.com
#1 in Micro brushless!

Scott,
Our motors are not a copy of yours! I have yet to this day held one of your motors in my hands, and I am the one that did the design work on our motors. Other than the fact that our motors are both round and spin a prop, they are very different. Ours are as much of a copy of yours as they are of an axi or an actro.

As far as the plastic goes, its not an improvement, its simply an option. Perhaps it makes your job easier, because you could not find a decent source for your machined parts. You did say yours would bend and get out of shape if they hit the ground didn’t you?? The magnets only benefit you as well. Less magnets for you to install make the motor better how?? You don’t see many plastic motors for a reason. The plastic canopy material may have a nice, novelty look to it, but I would rather go with long term strength and looks with something much better than aluminum or plastic,,, we are talking turbine material baby!! More to come soon.. ;) :D

Maybe GMC will copy your plastic motor idea for their next engine design..
Doubt it, You don’t see many plastic motors for a reason!!

If you quit letting your big head get in the way, all of these lame fights could be avoided 100% Time to put it to rest Scott!!!

-Jon

[Littlescreamers]

You guys are funny:D

You had to change your design to curved magnets (like me) then you had to add to you stator stack to equal mine? and then you still claim to have the best motor? I have posted my #s for my new motors and if you all don't believe them fine! I have nothing to loose. I am still #1 in weight and power? Lets see your 147mph plane? It is true I was having problems with bent bells and that is why I moved over to the Lexan is is no just "Plastic" It's Lexan! It will take way more abuse the Alum anyday. Also I included 2 motor mounts with every motor. Not charge extra like you do? I will be at the AMA show in Jan to show off what we are up to. come on by and take a look. I have had a long talk with George the magnet man about me being the first to have the curved magnets! He even will tell you I was the first to have this design in production motors even though you all keep thinking I was not!
I have nothing more to defend as I am tired of this whole thing!

Have fun

Scott
Littlescreamers.com
#1 in micro power

[ryanl2006]

Scott- You are VERY mistaken here pal.

The magnets were offered to me by Don from Strong RC. He emailed me and said he had a lot of extra magnets he could not use anymore. He gave them to me for cheaper then equivalent magents could be made even if you ordered 30,000. I jumped all over that, NOT to copy you, but because I got them CHEAPER then flat magnets. See that is how motor manufactures like CustomCDR and Strong RC work togethor, but you can not seem to play nice with anyone.

Along with getting the magnets cheap, they were 6mm tall for singles. Our standard stators (and yours) are around 5mm tall. We added 1mm to our motor so that we could use the full potential of the magnets that were practically GIVEN to me. Our stators are now thicker then yours just because of the good deal Don gave me. How is that copying you?

Your big head disgusts me. I can't do anything without you saying I am copying you. Lets see some Dr. Kiwi tests of a motor that beats mine in power to weight.

Don't even get me started on your mounts. Do you recall when you called me and tried to sell those off on me? I didn't want them so now you have to basically give them away (what is it now? $4 for 4 mounts?). Or how about when you called me to tell me you were going to put me out of business (on multiple occasions). I have seen those mounts in person. They are not drilled straight so your thrust line is off. They have to have 3 set screws to even hold a motor because the plastic is so weak in the threads. You want me to be jealous of that or copy that.

If you are tired of all this supposed 'defending' yourself, then don't. No one said anything bad about Little screamers motors in this thread to make you come in. The thread starter asked if there were any kits that could perform similarly to your motors. Jon answered that CustomCDR kits performed similarly. He never said CustomCDR was better. He never said LS was bad. All he said was we offer kits. Do you offer kits? So if someone wants a kit, how was that taking away from your business in any way?

Get over yourself scott.

[ki0qm]

Wow Scott. Thanks for your little bit of attitude. Should I worship you or not look directly at you? /endsarcasm

You need to take a step back and get a bit of reality man. As far as I know you didn't invent the dang motor. You didn't invent curved magnnets. You didn't bash the first CDROM motor. I just checked your web page and I don't even see an "all lexan motor". Rather only a polycarb endbell.

I don't know who you think you are but I know my money will never be going your way sir. May you continue to enjoy yourself.

As far as the OP's question, there is nothing special about any of these motors. Wire winds and magnets are the only real variables and there isn't anything that is proprietary. GoBrushless.com has a nice motor database.

[Littlescreamers]

Your right! I am not in a good mood and I am trying to take it out on Ryan.
Sorry!

I was :censored: for a very large ammount of $$$ and lost my machinist at the same time! This is all my fault for not paying close attention to what was going on. I will say in defence of my design that the Lexan motors are all lexan except the bearing tube and flux ring. they are very strong and will never bend out of shape. About the mounts "Yes" I sent a couple of the test ones that were used to set up the drilling rig and that is why there was a couple sets drilled of set. The mounts that are included with the motors are not drilled at all and are factory perfact! Just the ones that were sold for everyone elses motors were drilled. and it takes a few trys to get the gig just right! I was sorry about that mistake and offered to replace any that were not drilled right. As for the 3 set screws I did that for saftey because I did not know what they were using them on? the ones that go out with my motors have only 1 setscrew and it will hold very strong. As for striping the threads it is just a easy to strip the Alum as the Lexan. But it does not need to be tightened that tight.

I still have the lightest and most powerful motor in my class.

Scott
Littlescreamers.com

[rmgmag]

Or you can order the "Original" Littlescreamer and save yourself the trouble of building.

Scott
Littlescreamers.com
Catch us if you can:D
I would love to order one of the Little Screamers Purple Peril's, but no one seems to have any....so I thought that maybe I could build something with similar performance. I've got one of the new www.rcxplanes.com Allure's (I had a pre-production version too) and while I really enjoy it with the Hacker A20-34S and a 3 cell, I think that by saving some weight, it would fly even better. Mike Hill has been flying it with a LS PP with a 2 cell generating about 14 oz of thrust, and he really likes it. So I thought that since I couldn't find one, I'd try to build something similar or at least close in performance. I also figured that I'd gain some knowledge about brushless motors by building one myself.

Didn't mean to start a war.....you guys sure are competitive. But that's a good thing, it improves the breed...

Bob

[ecologito]

Guys, I know you love to argue about innovations and motor performance, is somebody thinking of building 12 stator poles motors? Higher torque, less amps... I will be more than glad to test them ;)

[morphs]

Bob,
Our motors don't quite scream, but they do have a cool turbine sound when they are spinning up. Try one of our kits, you wont be disappointed. If you are, I will refund your money. They have the looks and the performance!!

Our test motors are the same as the production motors and they are wound kind of mild. We do this, because we don't want to disappoint with unrealistic #'s. The fact is our cool motors are keeping right up with the comp. There are guys getting unreal #'s out of our D.I.Y motors with hotter winds.. They can take allot!!

Thanks, Jon

[fly_boy99]

Look into MicroDan motors... LRK baby!!!


Guys, I know you love to argue about innovations and motor performance, is somebody thinking of building 12 stator poles motors? Higher torque, less amps... I will be more than glad to test them ;)

[ryanl2006]

I still have the lightest and most powerful motor in my class.



Scott,

I have said the same thing throughout this thread, but I guess you were to busy finding every similarity between my motors and yours. Show me any Dr. Kiwi tests that beat ours. You can not post your own figures because:

A) You are biased. Whether you want to be or not, you are. I am biased too. That is why I do not post performance specs based on my tests.

B) If you want to compare motors they have to be tested using the same equipment. What if your power supply puts out a little more voltage then mine, or vise versa. Its not like its a big to send a motor to Dr. Kiwi, in fact in my other thread when you came in and posted in that one about your motors, you said one was in the mail to Kiwi. Aparently that was not true.

And about the weight of motors...um they are both right around 23 grams for a single. If my or your motor weighs half a gram heavier then the other, you are going to say "mine is lightest"... Do you really think that much weight difference is even possible to be noticed at the performance levels our motors are at? Not even a pro etoc flyer could notice half a gram, whether it be yours or mine that is heavier.

[Littlescreamers]

you said one was in the mail to Kiwi. Aparently that was not true.


I did and it did not perform the same as it did for me so I am sending a new one. I have yet to send another because of the holidays. I will try to get another out next week. I agree about the weight but some guy said I was the same weight as an Axi? Anyway Happy Holidays

Scott
littlescreamers,com

[ryanl2006]

Oh I didnt know you only had Dr. Kiwi post the good tests. Sorry. I just have him post what the motor does, good or bad, let the motors talk.

Merry Christmas

[mike3976]

Guys, I know you love to argue about innovations and motor performance, is somebody thinking of building 12 stator poles motors? Higher torque, less amps... I will be more than glad to test them ;)

12 Stator poles and maby a little bit bigger in diameter!! made from turbine material? Titanium I presume :)

After briefing thru this thread, one might think that much like Al Gore, who invented the very internet that we are all using, that Scott from LS invented the CDR .... Impressive!

[ryanl2006]

After briefing thru this thread, one might think that much like Al Gore, who invented the very internet that we are all using, that Scott from LS invented the CDR .... Impressive!

LOL :p

12 Stator poles and maby a little bit bigger in diameter!! made from turbine material? Titanium I presume :)


Shhhh!! All info given to you was for your eyes and your eyes only. Dont want to spoil the suprise. :D :cool:

[ecologito]

I still don't understand why you get into this arguments like little brothers, nobody here is inventing the black string.

I really like competition but I like it with action and not all the bla bla bla... just my opinion. Isn't it easier post Dr. Kiwi's results as both seem to have the " best" motor.

what is next? are you gonna try to wind motors with Gold wire instead of copper? hmm.. brain storming sometimes takes people to some crazy roads :cool: :cool: :cool: .

[fly_boy99]

Sure a DIY motor can beat a manufacturers motor!!!

Pick a manufacturer!!!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456723#post4786339

lol,
fb

[ryanl2006]

Ecologito- I have thought about winding with different types of wire, but in my research copper truly is the best for energy density etc. :D (Yes I am joking...mostly.)

I agree Dr. Kiwi tests are the only real comparison. Here are mine:

www.customcdr.com/tests.html

[fly_boy99]

19oz at 9A!!! I like that!!!

[MorrisM]

what is next? are you gonna try to wind motors with Gold wire instead of copper? hmm.. brain storming sometimes takes people to some crazy roads :cool: :cool: :cool: .

Not gold, but how about silver wire?
http://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/SILVER_ENAMELLED.html

[rmgmag]

Bob,
Our motors don't quite scream, but they do have a cool turbine sound when they are spinning up. Try one of our kits, you wont be disappointed. If you are, I will refund your money. They have the looks and the performance!!

Our test motors are the same as the production motors and they are wound kind of mild. We do this, because we don't want to disappoint with unrealistic #'s. The fact is our cool motors are keeping right up with the comp. There are guys getting unreal #'s out of our D.I.Y motors with hotter winds.. They can take allot!!

Thanks, Jon
Hi Jon,

What's the difference in weight and how many amps they draw between your cool motors and your hot motors other than you don't have the cool motors in stock? Also, do you have any mounts that have an equivalent spacing like the Hackers?

[Argyle]

CustomCDR guys:

How much are your kits? The sub-sections for kits have no products or prices...

One other thing to remember...

"Never argue with the foolish, they will only drag you to their level, and beat you with experience."

[ryanl2006]

MorrisM- Believe it or not, I looked into silver wire. The problem is that copper has less resistance per area. Silver just has less resistance per weight. In these motors we are all about packing more wire in so having a less 'dense' (resistance wise) wire would be counter productive.

rmgmag- I am not sure I understood everything you are asking, but the weight is about 23 grams. The Hot motors pull the same amps on smaller props. They both have the same basic 'max amps.' I dont know what you mean with the hacker mount question.

Argyle- They are not on my site because right now Jon (morphs is his rcgroups name), is handling the kits. PM him if you want one. The Prices are as follows:

Single Propsaver backplate- $29
Single Non-Saver backplate- $27
Single Propsaver tube mount- $26
Single Non-Saver tube mount- $23
Double Propsaver backplate- $34
Double Non-saver backplate- $32
Double Propsaver tube mount- $31
Double Non-saver tube mount- $28

Haha, I will try and remember that saying.

[morphs]

Hi Jon,

What's the difference in weight and how many amps they draw between your cool motors and your hot motors other than you don't have the cool motors in stock? Also, do you have any mounts that have an equivalent spacing like the Hackers?

The only difference between our hot and cool motors are the winds, and color of the motor. The cool wind is blue and black, and our hot wind is red and black. there is no weight difference. The reason it says out of stock on our hot wind, is because we wont have any red anodized parts until this week.

As far as amp draw check out this link:
http://www.customcdr.com/tests.html
It is Dr. Kiwi's performance test of our hot single, cool single and cool double.
Pay close attention to 3 cell on an 8-4 prop with our cool and hot singles. It clearly shows that we have no problem "keeping up with the competition" :D

I don't quite understand what you are asking about "equivalent spacing like hackers". Do you mean and offset like a in-runner in a gear box, or do you mean the overall length???

Thanks, Jon

[Argyle]

So for $10 bucks or so you make the motor?

Id rather work a few minutes at my job than spend hours making my first motor...

[morphs]

Most people that buy our kits, don't do it for the money saved. They do it so they can experiment with their own custom winds to best fit their needs. Others do it just because they like making their own motor. Its a great feeling of accomplishment when you spin up your first hand wound and assembled brushless motor.

-Jon

[ryanl2006]

Argyle- You are correct about the pricing. The reason you just said is why we sell mostly prebuilt motors. Like Jon said though, for some people it is the sport of making yourself a better motor then a comercial motor, and knowing you built it. To each his own, that's why we offer both.

[rmgmag]

Hi Morphs,

Regarding the spacing of the mount, the Hacker has a cruciform mount that lines up perfectly with the fuselage of the www.RCXPlanes.com. In their kit they include a mount that works with the Little Screamer motor. The Hacker mount is basically a drop in for their plane. Since the plane is already built, I need for any new motor to fit the existing mounting area. Check out a close up picture on their site, you'll know what I mean....

Regarding the perfromance of the cool and hot motors, I guess what I'm confused about is why anyone would choose the cool wind over the hot wind. Same wieght with more power is better, right?

Bob

[morphs]

Hi Morphs,

Regarding the spacing of the mount, the Hacker has a cruciform mount that lines up perfectly with the fuselage of the www.RCXPlanes.com. In their kit they include a mount that works with the Little Screamer motor. The Hacker mount is basically a drop in for their plane. Since the plane is already built, I need for any new motor to fit the existing mounting area. Check out a close up picture on their site, you'll know what I mean....

Regarding the performance of the cool and hot motors, I guess what I'm confused about is why anyone would choose the cool wind over the hot wind. Same weight with more power is better, right?

Bob

Bob,
Our mounting pattern holes are 3 holes 33.3 deg. apart. So for a + pattern mount with 4 holes 25 deg. apart it would not work. we like to use a round, plywood firewall with notches cut out to slip into the nose. That way we can use any mounting choice. You may be able to use one of our firewall mounts and a bearing tube, but they have the same 3 hole pattern. You could always re-drill the firewall mount with 4 holes though.

The difference in the hot and cold, is the Kv and the amp draw. If you have a 5 Oz. Shockie, there is no need for the extra power of the hot wind. You will get longer flight times with the cool wind and with almost 4 to 1 thrust to weight, I think the cool wind has plenty of power too.. :cool:

The hot wind is better suited for small props when speed is what you are after, or for the the use of 2 cell li-po's.
It all boils down to personal preference and the plane the motor will be used in. I usually run a cooler wind in most of my planes.

-Jon

[Daveairway]

The only difference between our hot and cool motors are the winds, and color of the motor.

(SNIP)

As far as amp draw check out this link:
http://www.customcdr.com/tests.html

Thanks, Jon

Hi Jon,

Looks like you had a good x-mas, as most of your items are out of stock :)

Is it a trade secret, or can I ask how many turns and what gauge the cool wind motors are?

Also, do you have any numbers for the 20 mm cool wind motor using the Gunther (Zagi prop) at 6 and 7 volts? I think this would be a good set-up for the tail motor on my heli ;)

Thanks,
Dave

PS: I will be placing an order when you have stock again.

[ryanl2006]

Dave,
Pm me and I will get you a motor. I always put less stock on the website then I actually have so that I don't oversell. I have some extra parts.

No trade secret, its a 17turn 25awg. That right there is the main reason our motors perform so well. The nearest motors I know of is the new LS de novo tha is 15T of 25awg, or maybe the lensrc 17 turn which I think is 17 turn 26awg. We have the most copper packing that I know of = great efficiency and power.

I do not have any exact numbers on the zagi prop and 7 volts, but judging by its percent difference at 11 volts from the 7x3.5, then extrapolating to equally compare to the 7x3.5 on 7 volts I predict that it will run about 2.19 amps with the zagi prop on 7 volts.

[rmgmag]

Since I couldn't get a hold of any sources for the Little Screamer PP, I ordered one of the "cool" single stator motors from Custom CDR. Should be interesting to see how it stacks up against my Hacker. Mike Hill from www.rcxplanes.com sent me an email today letting me know that he's been thinking about the Custom CDR motors too, he just ordered a "cool" and a "hot" motor for testing. Looking forward to comparing notes with him.....

Ryan, thanks for the info. Hope your shipping is as quick as your emails..... :D


Bob

[Littlescreamers]

[QUOTE=ryanl2006]Scott- You are VERY mistaken here pal.

The magnets were offered to me by Don from Strong RC. He emailed me and said he had a lot of extra magnets he could not use anymore. He gave them to me for cheaper then equivalent magents could be made even if you ordered 30,000. I jumped all over that, NOT to copy you, but because I got them CHEAPER then flat magnets. See that is how motor manufactures like CustomCDR and Strong RC work togethor, but you can not seem to play nice with anyone.

Along with getting the magnets cheap, they were 6mm tall for singles. Our standard stators (and yours) My stators have been 5.6mm from the start?are around 5mm tall. We added 1mm to our motor so that we could use the full potential of the magnets that were practically GIVEN to me. Our stators are now thicker then yours just because of the good deal Don gave me. How is that copying you?

Your big head disgusts me. I can't do anything without you saying I am copying you. Lets see some Dr. Kiwi tests of a motor that beats mine in power to weight. Lets see something you designed on your own!
Don't even get me started on your mounts. Do you recall when you called me and tried to sell those off on me? I tried to offer you a mount for a fair price to be able to offer one to your customers and maybe make a little something in the end! I didn't want them so now you have to basically give them away. I am not sure if you looked at the mounts or not? They are black not clear. These are the mounts that were form the test shots from the mold as I was refining it! Test shots were 500 at a time minimum. So I decided to give a good deal? Thats a bad thing?(what is it now? $4 for 4 mounts?). $4 for 4 mount is a great deal don't you think? Or how about when you called me to tell me you were going to put me out of business (on multiple occasions). I have seen those mounts in person. They are not drilled straight so your thrust line is off. The couple mounts that were sent off drilled were from setting up the drilling gig and a few got mixed in with the good ones and got sent out, They have to have 3 set screws to even hold a motor because the plastic is so weak in the threads. I have said before only the ones sold for other motor applications are drilled with extra setscrews as I have no idea what they will use them on? You want me to be jealous of that or copy that. Come on? This is a proven design as there is 1000s of these mounts out there being flown every day and I get requests for the daily
If you are tired of all this supposed 'defending' yourself, then don't. No one said anything bad about Little screamers motors in this thread to make you come in. The thread starter asked if there were any kits that could perform similarly to your motors. Jon answered that CustomCDR kits performed similarly. He never said CustomCDR was better. He never said LS was bad. All he said was we offer kits. Do you offer kits? So if someone wants a kit, how was that taking away from your business in any way?
I was wrong here!
In my defence I did call and offer to let you get your bearings from the same company that makes the ones you buy from VXB and I know what your paying. I offered to give you them for 19cents ea shipped to the us for 60,000 rpm shielded. and you thought I was trying to screw you? Go look at the prices you are trying to sell them to these people for? Man I was just trying to help! I tried to play fair and it got me nowhere.


Scott
Littlescreamers.com

[BTerry]

Scott/Jon/Ryan
WOW, can you guys PLEASE take it to PM's? I know the business is cutthroat but please give us a break. It is difficult enough to gain any useful information without manufacturers bashing each other.

Just give us the sales pitch describing your own products' strengths, without slamming your competitors.

After all, this is hobby to most of us.

Competition drives the market and innovation, but please give the accusations a rest in a public forum!

Regards,

Brett

[rmgmag]

Scott & Ryan,

From everything that I've read, you both have excellent products. I started the thread with the intent of building a motor because I couldn't find a source that had the Little Screamer Purple Peril in stock (I think that speaks volumes about LS). You guys are obviously fierce competitors, and I think that's great, however, and I say this with the utmost respect for both of you, because you're both passionate about your products (your motors speak for themselves), other than your technical differences, I'm not sure that this is the proper forum to bash each other. Just my opinion, please don't flame me.....

You guys are entrepreneurs, and almost by definition, must have big egos (aka "big heads"), or you wouldn't be in business for yourselves, you'd be working for someone else and you'd probably be miserable doing it. I think everyone should applaud your creativity and guts to get into this business or any other business. It's highly competitive, and I bet the margins are small, the hours are probably long, hopefully you're making enough bucks to make it worthwhile.

Anyway thanks for all of the info, and keep improving the breed....I think that eventually, electric motors are going to displace and ultimately replace nitro, you guys are at the cutting edge.

Bob

[morphs]

Scott/Jon/Ryan
WOW, can you guys PLEASE take it to PM's? I know the business is cutthroat but please give us a break. It is difficult enough to gain any useful information without manufacturers bashing each other.

Just give us the sales pitch describing your own products' strengths, without slamming your competitors.

After all, this is hobby to most of us.

Competition drives the market and innovation, but please give the accusations a rest in a public forum!

Regards,

Brett

Brett & Bob,
I agree with you 100%. The problem is we at customCdr have never instigated any of these outbursts. I never bash L.S. as I think they have a great product. I dont think plastic is the best material for a motor, but that's my own personal opinion. On the other hand, If anybody even mentions a customCDR motor, Scott busts into the thread with both guns a blazing!! I am sick and tired of him talking smack about us supposedly copying his motors. Like I said before, the only thing that is the same is both of our motors are round in shape and they spin a propeller. We don't even use the same size stator!

I hate getting into this with him, but unfortunately it happens every time our name is brought up, and I feel like I have to defend myself. We have tried to take it privately and Scott just posts our pm's here on the forum. Maybe in the end it will be a good thing for CustomCdr that Scott insists on showing his true personality publicly. I for one would never by a product from anyone that blatantly shows such a lack of respect towards their competitors!! I cant quite figure out if he in fact does have the biggest head in the industry, or if he simply doesn't have an once of self esteem, and acting like a child is the only way he knows how to deal with it.. Either way he needs to learn how to control his emotions!!

I have posted a pic of a billet bullet and a l.s. for comparison. Will somebody please tell me how we copied his design.. Am I missing something here??? If anything, the l.s. looks like a little GBX with a back plate and different cooling holes.

Anyway,,, I am done with this. But I can assure you it wont last for long. Scott will be back again and it will start all over in another thread.
I am very sorry everybody has to deal with this.. :(

-Jon

[Littlescreamers]

Brett,
I agree with you 100%. The problem is we at customCdr have never instigated any of these outbursts. If anybody even mentions a customCDR motor, Scott busts into the thread with both guns a blazing!! I am sick and tired of him talking smack about us supposedly copying his motors. Like I said before, the only thing that is the same is both of our motors are round in shape and they spin a propeller. We don't even use the same size stator!

I hate getting into this with him, but unfortunately it happens every time our name is brought up, and I feel like I have to defend myself. We have tried to take it privately and Scott just posts our pm's here on the forum. Maybe in the end it will be a good thing for CustomCdr that Scott insists on showing his true personality publicly. I for one would never by a product from anyone that blatantly shows such a lack of respect towards their competitors!! I cant quite figure out if he in fact does have the biggest head in the industry, or if he simply doesn't have an once of self esteem, and acting like a child is the only way he knows how to deal with it.. Either way he needs to learn how to control his emotions!!

I have posted a pic of a billet bullet and a l.s. for comparison. Will somebody please tell me how we copied his design.. Am I missing something here???

That's not what my motors look like anymore? More like this:D And as far as me saying copy that was geared towards your older design but after all the work you have done to compete with me you have something now. I have never said bad things about your motors? Never said bad things to customers that ask about your motors. I tell them the truth "We all feel we have the best motor" I say the same about all the others too AXI Hacker etc. None of many things said about me or my company hit me as hard as the Al Gore one :( Made me think. I have to say , And I have said this before (to other people) I am jealous of his people skills and want nothing bad to come to him or his company. I try very hard to be a nice guy and it shows that I suck at it. Though I do have a very large fallowing. They at least like my motors. It seems to me you two are the ones trying to sabotage my company by saying my Lexan is inferior and my mounts suck? Trying to put my motors down to make your look better? You show me one thread that I bashed your motor like this? I have said bring something new but not bashed what you had? When there is large amounts of data about the benefits of using Lexan. It is the leading edge in technology. Aerospace is just one place you will see it used on lots of things that used to be metal.

I call a truce!

[rmgmag]

.....When there is large amounts of data about the benefits of using Lexan. It is the leading edge in technology. Aerospace is just one place you will see it used on lots of things that used to be metal.

I call a truce!

Well said, a truce is a good idea.

Bob

[morphs]

Done!! You have a good product, we have a good product. Maybe What we need is for me to hop in a Cessna and fly up to Wa. So we could have a beer and some buffalo wings. You would probably even like me once you got to know me. :D

Truce,
Jon

[rmgmag]

Hey guys,

One other thing that I just thought of; because these motors work using the same basice principles, it's ineviteble that they are going to look similar to each other and use similar components. Don't most cars have 4 wheels, lights, windshields, etc, and don't a lot of auto manufacturers use the same sub-contractors to make some of their components? I don't think that you can avoid designing a motor that looks like someone elses motor, any changes in design are going to be evolutionary in nature and not revolutionary, unless someone comes up with a triangular shaped motor or something, like the old Wankel rotary engines....

Anyway, keep up the good work, everyone benefits from new designs and "friendly" competition.

Bob

[rmgmag]

Done!! You have a good product, we have a good product. Maybe What we need is for me to hop in a Cessna and fly up to Wa. So we could have a beer and some buffalo wings. You would probably even like me once you got to know me. :D

Truce,
Jon

Hey, I like the sound of that, I'd be happy to mediate (referee), would anyone like to contribute for airfare from CT to WA? hahahaha :D

Bob

[morphs]

Triangle shaped motor????? Great!!! Now I have to go back to the drawing board. :D :D

Seriously though. That's what I have said numerous times. In order to be a motor, it needs to look like a motor.

-Jon

[ryanl2006]

LOL Scott. I thought this drama was all over but I guess you had nothing to do so you just had to start it all back up.

You need to stop acting like you know anything about my company. I do NOT get bearings fro VXB. You have also never offered me bearings, you have offered Steve from www.gobrushless.com bearings, and when he said no, you bad mouthed his company.

You can say what you want about lexan, but any advatages it supposively adds do not really help the consumer.

You say it makes it stronger but I have never had one come back with a bent endbell? (maybe your machinist used 20 grade aluminum instead of the 60 grade stuff we use? maybe thats why your endbells bent so easy and your mounts supposively stripped as easy as plastic?).

You say it is lighter but both of our motors are still 23 grams?

You say it is cheaper but your retail price is the same?

You say it doesnt run hot, but when you first released the lexan you said it did run warmer, but still did not overheat?

You say it is faster to make but you still can't supply motors?

The same goes for your 'new magnet' design...you said "behold, the new magnet design," but how does that help the consumer.

You are just making yourself look silly by keep saying we copied you. Look at our motors vs yours. We have a lot of features not available on yours or most other motors.

-Our motor has little feet that hold it off of the firewall so you never have to worry about the shaft hitting the firewall. The feet also stick out to the side so you can bolt it from the front and dont ever have to worry about a mount slipping. Does your motor have that?

-Our propsavers have little 'ridges' to hold all types of props, your motor has one ridge. Is that copying you?

-We have high quality silicon wire termantions while you still use thin magnet wire that breaks easily. Is that copying you?

-Our backplates are custom machined to support the wires and hold them tightly vs how yours just come out one of the cooling holes. Is that copying you?

-Our motors are custom anodized so you can tell them apart...and now you are going to start coloring yours...is that copying you?

-We started with a 4 spoke endbell, now you went to 4 spoke...is that copying you?

Well now that we know the differences, lets take a look at the similarities between our motors.

-They are both round.

-They use similar sized stators, I used the ones readily available from gobrushless, no sense in reinventing the wheel.

-They both have curved magnets. I was basically given my curved magnets by Don from Stong Rc. Don is a great guy and very generous. My motors in a sense compete with his but he had no problem offering that deal to me. In the end it helped both of us. I got magnets for cheap and he was able to get rid of what he can't use anymore. He might even start carrying CustomCDR motors soon. See thats how little companies stick togethor and help eachother out. There is enough room for all of us, Jon and I would have never said anything about your motors if you didn't bust into this thread with accusations of copying and lack of innovations. Look at Jons post before you started this war Scott. Jon said the CustomCDR motors have very comparable performance to LS. He never said we were better or anything. And then you start a war?

Well looks like those are the only similarites. Hmmmm, from that I think the customers can decide for themselves if we copied you.

[ryanl2006]

Oh and scott...about showing you a post where you bashed our motors...you know we can't do that, your posts get deleted by the mods and a warning gets issued. Just like what happened in the "The New CustomCDR Billet Bullets are here!" thread. :D

[ki0qm]

It is the leading edge in technology. Aerospace is just one place you will see it used on lots of things that used to be metal.

One downside of the plastic parts is it greatly reduces the metal surface area on the motor and thus will greatly reduce the ability of the motor to dissipate any heat. Same problem as the cf bearing tubes present.

[Littlescreamers]

Done!! You have a good product, we have a good product. Maybe What we need is for me to hop in a Cessna and fly up to Wa. So we could have a beer and some buffalo wings. You would probably even like me once you got to know me. :D

Truce,
Jon

Only if I get to fly your plane:D

Scott

[TeamSME]

Slap fight... Do the new ls clears come in purple? or Clurple lol./

[morphs]

Only if I get to fly your plane:D

Scott

I'd let you fly. I'd even let you take off, its the landing that could get us in trouble.. :eek:

-Jon

[Littlescreamers]

I'd let you fly. I'd even let you take off, its the landing that could get us in trouble.. :eek:

-Jon

I have been lucky enough to get the chance to fly a few nice planes. (spellen is guuna suck)

Mooney, goose, 185, 1978 citabrea 180 stunt :eek: and a few ultra lites.

The weather up here sucks for flying most of the time. but when it is nice it is really something to see.

Morphs got time to whip me out a few 1000 flux rings?

Scott

[BTerry]

Where is a moderator when you need one?

While you guys are wasting time arguing whose motor is the most innovative, some Chinese company is reverse-engineering your product.

Modelers (especially me!) are extremely fickle people. Our hobby budgets usually arise from whatever scraps we can steal from the Food/Clothing/Shelter/Important Stuff budget, as our spouses allow. As soon as something similar comes along for 5% less, we buy it. If we can find a supplier who will sell us the same thing at the same price without being pushy, defensive, or belligerent towards other customers or vendors, we will switch.

Consider this fair warning. Please, please, PLEASE, take this bickering PRIVATE...


***edit*** removed the term "rewound CRDOM motor". I apologize, because these motors are certainly much more than that.
Please accept my apology! However, my point still stands.
-B

[Littlescreamers]

One downside of the plastic parts is it greatly reduces the metal surface area on the motor and thus will greatly reduce the ability of the motor to dissipate any heat. Same problem as the cf bearing tubes present.


My motors have always ran cool and they still have a alum bearing tube. I tried to build one out of just the Lexan and it got very hot. To hot! But this design is working very well and it will not overheat. I have never used anything but the Alum for a bearing tube so I cannot say about the CF. It sure is nice to not have all the parts machined anymore though. At the RCX show I sold about 200 of these Lexan motors and more since and have not had a call or return on 1 one them yet.

Scott
Littlescreamers.com

[ryanl2006]

Morphs got time to whip me out a few 1000 flux rings?

Scott

Scott,
Sure we can make you flux rings. You will have to, however, advertise as "uses CustomCDR parts" ;) :D Wouldn't that put an interesting twist into everything.

[Blackhawk3D]

nice. :D

[ryanl2006]

Hey Nathan, whats up man? You back from Vacation? I don't want to take this thread further OT (its already pretty far though), but lets talk privately.

[c/f]

RMg wrote:
Regarding the perfromance of the cool and hot motors, I guess what I'm confused about is why anyone would choose the cool wind over the hot wind. Same wieght with more power is better, right?


Concerning this statement and the Lsr Denova versus Purple Peril, I can lend some insight, The same would hold true for CCDr as its the same basic line up and prop recomendation.

I had two purples I sent back for rewind because they draw 14+ amps full throttle, versus the milder Denova @ 12 amps MAX. WHY cause with planes that weigh under 10 ounces, the battery pack choices and the ESC choice become very differant WEIGHT option items, so IMHO getting a few more ounces of thrust and adding 2+ ounces of weight is a point a diminishing returns for me.

The 12 amp Denovas using Thunder Power 3s 730 prolites and a Cool Running 10 or 12 amp ESC and the GWS8X4DD prop is ballistic on 6-10 ounce models.

I've just recently tried the TP 2s 703 Pro Lites and the GWS 9X5 DD and it is a definate keeper setup and has allowed me to now start flying the same models in my basement with less screamer factor.

So in the end its an excersize in AUW that has to be looked at when choosing motors.

FWIW I own 6 Lsr and 1 CustomCdr. both companies are supplying cutting edge performance. Now one just needs to take the lead on price reduction and i'ts really gonna set off some fireworks :D

[BTerry]

Now one just needs to take the lead on price reduction and i'ts really gonna set off some fireworks :D

Anybody who has run his own business can hear the CustomCDR and Little Screamers (and everybody else) screaming, "I thought I already WAS taking a lead on price reduction!".

I can only guess at the tremendous number of hours required to refine these motors, and each is made with the personal attention to detail of a person with his name, reputation, and money on the line.

All the while, people (such as I) will wait in line to see who cuts his own prices first and will switch brand loyalties to save $5. It must be tough to put Cheerios on the table with customers like me around!

In other news, I need to replace a motor in a Shockflier F3A. I know that I should buy from a small businessman, but find the glossy pictures in catalogs and websites so attractive, I hope that I can put my money where my mouth is! I should just look at the numbers and pick the one which works best for my plane.

Signed,

"Cruel, Fickle Consumer"

[morphs]

The problem is we can never compete with the price on products made over seas. And I for one would never want to.. Their products are sub-par for the most part and they have one goal,, Quantity!! Unlike some, I would rather spend an extra $20 so I knew I was getting a top quality product, proudly made in the U.S.A. where we still care about quality.. You get what you pay for!!

For the quality, performance and customer service you get with a CustomCdr or a little Screamer, at under $50 I feel they are priced very reasonably.

My $.02

-Jon

[rmgmag]

I hate to say it, but I don't mind paying an extra $5-$10 as long as I get a great product and excellent customer service. In the long run $5 to $10 won't affect how many Cheerios that I put on the table, but I bet that my frustration level will be much lower when dealing with domestic mfg'rs as opposed to the overeas guys. When dealing with the overseas suppliers, if you run into problems, you can forget about getting knowledgable help (you're lucky if they speak English), where I bet if I run into problems with Custom CDR and Little Screamers, I'm sure that those guys would go out of their way to make it right.

Bob

[morphs]

Bob,
You hit the nail on the head.

-Jon

[c/f]

HMMM.

Well since I bought both the Lsr's and the custom CDr @ an intro price of $35
shipped, I think just $5 could swing the undecided....... ;)

[ryanl2006]

c/f- Which CCDR motor do you have? I don't think our billet bullets have ever been $35, but with how much the price changes because we keep changing the design, I could be wrong.

[morphs]

Anybody who has run his own business can hear the CustomCDR and Little Screamers (and everybody else) screaming, "I thought I already WAS taking a lead on price reduction!".

I don't think any of this ever thought this. We are not here to make cheap motors!!

I can only guess at the tremendous number of hours required to refine these motors, and each is made with the personal attention to detail of a person with his name, reputation, and money on the line.

Yes, between the two companies we have 100's of hours invested.

All the while, people (such as I) will wait in line to see who cuts his own prices first and will switch brand loyalties to save $5. It must be tough to put Cheerios on the table with customers like me around!

Fortunately, I have a great "day" job as a structural engineer. So I do not have to use motor money to by Cheerios.

In other news, I need to replace a motor in a Shockflier F3A. I know that I should buy from a small businessman, but find the glossy pictures in catalogs and websites so attractive, I hope that I can put my money where my mouth is! I should just look at the numbers and pick the one which works best for my plane.

Like I said before.. You get what you pay for..
Signed,

"Cruel, Fickle Consumer"

I just thought I would answer all of you questions and comments. They are answered in red.

[ryanl2006]

To sum it up, I will quote a saying I heard once

"Fast, Cheap, and Quality, those are three things you want but you can only have two"

1. You can get a Quality motor Fast from some place like CustomCDR but it is not as cheap as overseas made stuff.

2. You can get a Cheap motor Fast like a lot of the overseas stuff, but the quality will be lacking.

3. You can get a Quality motor Cheap in the form of, for example a CustomCDR kit, but it will not be Fast because you have to build it yourself.

The choice is up to you. Choose whichever two of those "features" are best for you and go from there.

[c/f]

Ryan:

Got this one it was advertised as a 19 gram motor not your 23 gram bullet, but I believe your wind is the same:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409664

[ryanl2006]

Ah ok. That is like a cross between a GBx motor and a Billet Bullet. You should try one of the new billets, they have come a long way.

[BTerry]

To sum it up, I will quote a saying I heard once

1. You can get a Quality motor Fast from some place like CustomCDR but it is not as cheap as overseas made stuff.



Is the Double Cool Wind in stock? I like the numbers on that one.

Incidentally, I am saving up for a Cyclon Elite Mini for a larger project. Your motors are VERY cheap compared to that one. In fact, the price difference between the Chinese clones and your motor in insignificant when compared to that expensive motor!

Brett

[BTerry]

Back to the original intent of this thread, can we get a solid, tested, powerful and efficient design in a DIY motor that will compete with a manufactured motor?

How about a 12-pole LRK with ultralight components in a DIY kit?

I know it is out there!

[ryanl2006]

12 pole = MicroDan Kits

9 Pole = CustomCDR Kits.

Yes the Cool Doubles are in stock. If you want a backplate version, PM me and I will give you a bit of a deal.

[fly_boy99]

You can always wind your own.... or buy someone elses motor...

choices choices... :p

[rmgmag]

Hey Jon or Ryan,

Just wanted to know if you shipped the motor that I ordered on Tuesday 12/27/05?

Bob

[ryanl2006]

Bob,
Sent you an email also, but yes, I shipped it yesterday. Hope you like it!

Thanks,
-Ryan

[ImaBiggles]

A consumer opinion - pissy comments and attitude will steer me clear of a vendor. If you want to argue 'my motor is better than yours' -post tests and do it as gentlemen.

I have a 15 year old brushless motor with curve mags and a back plate mount. Granted it is 40#'s and turns a vacuum pump - but it shows u that nothing is really that 'new'. Just applying technology to a slightly different area. The only thing I would consider new are the low amp/volt controllers that allow us to spin these things. Now play nice boys. . .

[rmgmag]

Hi guys,

I installed my new CDR "cool" motor and got a few test flights in. Very nice piece of work! Based on how long the batteries lasted, the CDR seemed to be about 10% more efficient than my Hacker A20-34S with an e-tec 700mah 3 cell and a GWS 9x5 HD prop, and about the same efficiency as the Hacker when using a 2 cell with a GWS 8x4 HD prop, but with the 2 cell, the CDR generates quite a bit more power than the Hacker. I'm very happy with this motor's perfomance.

One of these days I'll try to wind my own and see how it works. But for now, this motor is working just fine.....

Bob

[morphs]

Bob,
Glad to here it worked out for you.

Let me know when you want to try a kit.

-Jon

[wevets]

No one has given a clear answer to the basic question. I've heard no on say, "yes, you can build a do-it-yourself" kit that's as good as what you can buy, or "no, the DIY kits just can't match what a manufacturer can do". It would be interesting to hear a firm assertion one way or the other.

Interesting that none of the manufacturers have said "no do-it-yourselfer can beat what I can make."

To really answer the question, someone would have to be capable of some pretty sophistocated testing to compare the options. Has Dr. Kiwi ever done that kind of comparison?

Wevets

[ryanl2006]

Yes, DIY motors can perform as well as or better then manufactured motors.

The reason is that when you are making a DIY motor you can spend much more time on it making sure everything is perfect and that you have the absolute best wind for your application, while manufactures have to try and make the best "all around" motor that they can mass produce quickly and cheapely as possible (while retaining as much quality as possible). When you look at a high quality motor kit, and a manufactured outrunner, they all really use the same parts. Some use more or less stator teeth, some have different shaped endbells, some are have a little more metal (and therefor are a little heavier), but really, they are all run on the same basic principles. With that in mind, performance really comes down to how strong of magnets you use and how good of a wind you put on a stator. (These are obviously not the only two, but IMO are the two biggest factors that determine performance)

Many manufactures use good or great magnets, but with N50's available to all DIY'ers, there is nothing stronger. This means the manufactured motors can only tie the DIY motors, they can not beat them in this category.

The other real performance make or breaker is the wind that is put on the stator. Like I said earlier, manufactures have to use a wind that is good "all around" yet can be wound quickly or by machine. When building a motor for youself you can take more time and pack more wire in and build a better motor.

The sort of crossover between DIY and manufactured motors are all of the small cd-rom based companies. Most of them are wound by hand and use top notch components, so their performance is tough to beat. But for true "manufactured" motors such as axi or himax, yes a DIY motor can beat them.

[morphs]

Well,,, CustomCdr, L.s., Lens, and others started out as D.I.Y. motors. We were doing them for ourselves. And yes we do compete very well and in some cases blow the big manufacturers away!! Not only power, but weight too..

These motor kits these days, especially ours are not recycled cdrom motors anymore. They are 100% top notch outrunners with all of the latest goodies, like double and triple stators, curved magnets, and cnc machined parts. Most of the big dogs don't even use curved n50 magnets like us little guys do.

So the answer is simple.. For a comparable sized motor(I am talking stator size), I feel you can build a better motor than you can buy from a big dog!!! It all boils down to your ability to build..

If you search the power system forum a little bit, you will find tons of people praising the cdr based motors.

-Jon

[Littlescreamers]

The problem is we can never compete with the price on products made over seas. And I for one would never want to.. Their products are sub-par for the most part and they have one goal,, Quantity!! Unlike some, I would rather spend an extra $20 so I knew I was getting a top quality product, proudly made in the U.S.A. where we still care about quality.. You get what you pay for!!

For the quality, performance and customer service you get with a CustomCdr or a little Screamer, at under $50 I feel they are priced very reasonably.

My $.02

-Jon


Well said:D

Scott
littlescreamers.com

[ImaBiggles]

The problem is we can never compete with the price on products made over seas. And I for one would never want to.. Their products are sub-par for the most part and they have one goal,, Quantity!! Unlike some, I would rather spend an extra $20 so I knew I was getting a top quality product, proudly made in the U.S.A. where we still care about quality.. You get what you pay for!!

For the quality, performance and customer service you get with a CustomCdr or a little Screamer, at under $50 I feel they are priced very reasonably.

My $.02

-Jon

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Surely some of the motors manufactured in Asia do suffer from quality issues. However there are several good manufacturers that make inexpensive motors and kits that can directly compare to US domestic ‘boutique’ shops like CDR and LS. For one, the Komodo single and their new double are very good motors for sub $26.

Another good example are the tower pro 24XX series motors and ESCs. These motors have good curved magnetic, nice mount options and a circuit board for the motor termination (ala Strongmotors). For a beginner in brushless, you really can not beat these for light foamies as the can be had for ~$11. Tell me a domestic motor or kit that can compete with that?

For heavier models, I am not sure the prefab boutique motors are any better or worse, but the domestic kits are excellent for fine tuning your unique power requirements for the model.

[morphs]

I Know there are a few products out of china that are good quality. Thats why I said "for the most part"

-Jon

[sneu]

These motor kits these days, especially ours are not recycled cdrom motors anymore. They are 100% top notch outrunners with all of the latest goodies, like double and triple stators, curved magnets, and cnc machined parts. Most of the big dogs don't even use curved n50 magnets like us little guys do.



As a rule stronger magnets don't make for better more efficient motors. In many cases just using a stronger magnet will raise the noload current and reduce the Kv of a motor. Is that good? depends on what you are looking for. If you only change the magent and do nothing else the best efficiecny point will move toward higher current which now may be above the useful limit of the windings--not really a very good idea. If N50 is good why not N55?

I would suggest that a lot more goes into deciding what features should be pot into the motor design than how strong of magnet you can find. One other item to consider--the strongest magents have a very low operating temp limit. get them a little too hot and they are toast.

As for the original question about if a DYI is better--the answer is "it depends" There is a wide range of motors on the market. It is not too hard to beat the low cost ones with a home built--but if you run up against a motor made with thin high quality laminations then you may well not be able to beat it unless you can get similar type laminations--which could be hard to find.

IMHO the biggest limit to the DYI CDR based motors is the stator lams--they are rather cheap and could be a lot better.

have fun!
Steve Neu

[morphs]

As a rule stronger magnets don't make for better more efficient motors. In many cases just using a stronger magnet will raise the noload current and reduce the Kv of a motor. Is that good? depends on what you are looking for. If you only change the magent and do nothing else the best efficiecny point will move toward higher current which now may be above the useful limit of the windings--not really a very good idea. If N50 is good why not N55?

I would suggest that a lot more goes into deciding what features should be pot into the motor design than how strong of magnet you can find. One other item to consider--the strongest magents have a very low operating temp limit. get them a little too hot and they are toast.

As for the original question about if a DYI is better--the answer is "it depends" There is a wide range of motors on the market. It is not too hard to beat the low cost ones with a home built--but if you run up against a motor made with thin high quality laminations then you may well not be able to beat it unless you can get similar type laminations--which could be hard to find.

IMHO the biggest limit to the DYI CDR based motors is the stator lams--they rather cheap and could be a lot better.

have fun!
Steve Neu

I have never seen a current increase with stronger magnets. We always get a Kv and current decrease. Even after making the wind a little hotter to get the Kv back up, the amp draw stays a bit lower than with the weaker magnets.

I agree about the weak link being the stator lams. I have thought about this many times.

-Jon

[KenSt]

Thankyou steve! After 93 posts we finally have the answer to the 1st post!
Magnetic analysis software is commonly used to optimize the size and shape of the components in a motor; lams, magnets and back iron just to name a few. Short of that, trial and error will only get you so close. A DIY motor is only as good as the research done to determine the compatability of its parts. A motor designed from scratch will always be more efficient than combining existing components. Sometimes much more, sometimes only slightly.

BUT, You can certainly save some money by buying a kit and you can wind it for exactly what you want, instead of whatever the current "trend" is for factory winds. Its fun to build it yourself, otherwise we'd all be flying ARF's!

[latrans]

As a rule stronger magnets don't make for better more efficient motors. In many cases just using a stronger magnet will raise the noload current and reduce the Kv of a motor. Is that good? depends on what you are looking for. If you only change the magent and do nothing else the best efficiecny point will move toward higher current which now may be above the useful limit of the windings--not really a very good idea. If N50 is good why not N55?

I would suggest that a lot more goes into deciding what features should be pot into the motor design than how strong of magnet you can find. One other item to consider--the strongest magents have a very low operating temp limit. get them a little too hot and they are toast.

As for the original question about if a DYI is better--the answer is "it depends" There is a wide range of motors on the market. It is not too hard to beat the low cost ones with a home built--but if you run up against a motor made with thin high quality laminations then you may well not be able to beat it unless you can get similar type laminations--which could be hard to find.

IMHO the biggest limit to the DYI CDR based motors is the stator lams--they are rather cheap and could be a lot better.


Well said! I would add one more thing this, which Ryan touched on before, IMHO a diy motor always has the potential to out perform a resonably priced manufactured motor because you have the ability to build it to your exact specifications.

have fun!
Steve Neu

Well said! I would add one more thing this, which Ryan touched on before, IMHO a diy motor always has the potential to out perform a resonably priced manufactured motor because you have the ability to build it to your exact specifications.

Steve,

I read your article about your new line of motors in the latest issue of QF with great interest, is there a thread somewhere about them or are they still too far from production? I would like to know more. BTW what is 0.007" in metric,about 0.01778mm? Or where the laminations 0.07" or 0.1778?

Adam

[fly_boy99]

Stator lams have been the major constricting point on DIY motors.

Hopefully someone will break out and provide some nice ones and can gain some marketshare in doing so.

Of course, price will be affected.

[ryanl2006]

Thankyou steve! After 93 posts we finally have the answer to the 1st post!


Was my answer not a real one?

Steve,
I know you are a very smart guy and know what you are doing when it comes to motors, but I think at some point you can over engineer a simple shockflyer motor. I wonder, if better laminations were used, would we even notice a performance difference in this small of a motor? And on the magnets, while weaker magnets may be better for inrunner, I think that 95% of the time stronger magnets are better for outrunners. They have always descreased both IO and loaded amps in my experience. I have never had one lessen performance. Why not N55 you ask? Well those are not readily available. If they become readily available, we will switch. From an overly simplistic standpoint, a motor runs by the permanent magnets attracting to the electromagnet of the stator. If you have a stronger manget then the attraction is stronger. Stronger magnets is basically 'free power.' If you ever encounter a case where there is a problem with overloading the flux or being too much for the stator...just decrease the thickness of the magnet. Boom lower weight and the same strength as the weaker magnet. Where is the negative in that?

[ryanl2006]

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Surely some of the motors manufactured in Asia do suffer from quality issues. However there are several good manufacturers that make inexpensive motors and kits that can directly compare to US domestic ‘boutique’ shops like CDR and LS. For one, the Komodo single and their new double are very good motors for sub $26.

Another good example are the tower pro 24XX series motors and ESCs. These motors have good curved magnetic, nice mount options and a circuit board for the motor termination (ala Strongmotors). For a beginner in brushless, you really can not beat these for light foamies as the can be had for ~$11. Tell me a domestic motor or kit that can compete with that?

For heavier models, I am not sure the prefab boutique motors are any better or worse, but the domestic kits are excellent for fine tuning your unique power requirements for the model.

Well I respectifully disagree with your statement. First of all those are kits vs prebuilt so you can not really compare the prices. If you look at our double kits they are mostly sub $30 so I would say we are pretty close to their price. Now look at the power to weight of each motor.

Not saying the komodo's are junk or anything like that. They are very nice parts and I am sure they are great for some people. All I am saying is that there is generally no "free lunch." In this case they are cheaper then us but it comes at the cost of a heavier motor.

I am not really in this business for the money, I just like making the absolute coolest motor possible. I love close tolerance machined parts and it is fun trying to push the limits. I like to think our motors are affordable, but my goal is not to make them as low cost as possible. I would rather charge more and have a motor I feel that there is not really any way to improve on.

[sneu]

Was my answer not a real one?

Steve,
I wonder, if better laminations were used, would we even notice a performance difference in this small of a motor? And on the magnets, while weaker magnets may be better for inrunner, I think that 95% of the time stronger magnets are better for outrunners. They have always descreased both IO and loaded amps in my experience. I have never had one lessen performance. Why not N55 you ask? Well those are not readily available. If they become readily available, we will switch. From an overly simplistic standpoint, a motor runs by the permanent magnets attracting to the electromagnet of the stator. If you have a stronger manget then the attraction is stronger. Stronger magnets is basically 'free power.' If you ever encounter a case where there is a problem with overloading the flux or being too much for the stator...just decrease the thickness of the magnet. Boom lower weight and the same strength as the weaker magnet. Where is the negative in that?

Both inrunnners and outrunner motors are subject to pretty much the same design issues. As a result the same rules apply to both. You may very well not see much change in no-load current unless the test is pretty well controlled. I believe you will find the text books back up what I suggested about stronger magnets. In any event if your motor runs well then why argue--It really does not serve much purpose.

Stronger magnets are not free power--power comes from the battery. The motor is a means of conversion of electrical power to fly the plane. Stronger magnets in their own don't make for a better motor--CDR or inrunner. It is way too simple to just saw that all you need to do is use this new super magnet and you mileage will get better--it won't:) For most higher power motors the N50 or N55 magnets have way too low of a maximum operating temp.

Steve

[BrunswickOH]

I haven't read every post in this thread but it seems to me that the entire thread is about DIY motors is it not?? Lens, Custom CDR, Little Screamers, and GoBrushless are all DIY type motors with the exception that you are paying somebody else to wind the stator. I think they all even use the same(or similar) stator.