Brushless and the disc brake [Archive]

birdofplay

Dec 22, 2005, 05:44 PM

With all due respect ...

Back in the 60's when Disc brakes were coming on line in cars
the promise was better and I figured they should therefore also be CHEAPER
due to WAY less "parts and adjustments" and easier to work on.
We still wouldnt have them if they werent cheaper for Detroit et al.

Well, we all know that Disc brake jobs were always priced HIGHER than shoes.
So becasue it was easier to do, I started changing my own pads.

Here we are in the middle of another techno breakthru with motors
that are, like the disc brakes ie, MUCH Simpler
with no brushes and no commutators
and therefore much less complex and easier to manufacture.

Again, I'm astounded at the insane prices.
Especially after several years of evolution.

Ok I realize that WE airplane and other model guys dont enjoy the
Economies Of Scale ( volumes ) that other motors enjoy
but COME ON ! there are even articles on the net
telling us how to wind them ourselves.
It's way easier on outrunners because the windings dont spin.
No centrifigal forces to worry about or compensate for.

Quality Bearings have been around for years.
Neodium magnets have been around for years.
High temp magnet wire insulation, not particularly new either.
ALL are used in tons of other applications.
CNC machining is widespread and common place.
You can find them in garages these days, or build your own
from plans and parts available on the net.

All of the above implies, at least to me, that costs ARE lower for
the materials AND processes to create our motors, MUCH LOWER !

Brushless motors are not much more than flashlights with a couple bearings,
some windings and a few magnets glued inside.

Apparently we have to wait for the Chinese to start selling directly
for prices to moderate. I say direct sales, because the Chinses are
already making MOST of the motors out there now.
Were just paying more middle men.

Guess I'll just have to start making my own motors,
right after I change my brake pads again.

daydreamer

Dec 22, 2005, 06:22 PM

Ain't that the truth I'm with you dude

oldphart

Dec 22, 2005, 06:28 PM

I'm with you both,any motor that I can make on my kitchen table must be a doddle to make.Mind you, controllers are a different kettle of fish entirely.

ecologito

Dec 22, 2005, 07:02 PM

I agree with you guys but is the price of an innovation.

Do you remeber the first cel phones? they were the size of a brick and weight even more, now they give'em for free.

Same thing with any "new" technology, is not the fact that the parts are a new invention, but somebody had the time to come up with it.

sb17joker

Dec 22, 2005, 09:12 PM

rafgol

Dec 23, 2005, 12:57 AM

Building an "el cheapo cd-rom conversion" :p myself is much more expensive than ordering one from a well designed and proven concept.
I have to order magnets from Switserland, buy the magnet wire in an electronics-shop 10 miles away , go to an personal computer shop :eek: and begg for broken cd-rom drives, (have to pay 1 euro a piece), I have to read and read hundreds of discussions and threads about windings, magnetspacing, and so on, have to order ball bearings from the US , than wind, rewind and finally I got a self-made cd-rom motor that does not perform well, one that drains my lipo-cells and even fry my :censored: esc. I had to buy an watt's-up watt meter, (imported from the States ) I have to drive miles and miles to find a hobby shop that sells green loctite for the magnets, and finaly I have to order propsavers from a chinese or taiwan company that can sell me a super brushless motor for no money. Yes, I have made dozens of brushless motors, broke down videodrives, cd-rom and floppy drives, harddisks, tapestreamers and even small drilling machines and grinders to find suitable rotor/stator combinations. Some of them perform well :cool: and fly great , some are bad, but they all spin like an cat. ;)
A fine sport and a wonderfull hobby, but I would rather go flying a bit more, instead of rewinding because of shorts

Expensive? I don't think so. :D

birdofplay

Dec 23, 2005, 01:11 PM

I see your point re individual component purchases PLUS your labor, however,

AGREEED that Buying individual components and doing ones own assembly
negates all the Economies Of scale enjoyed by manufacturers.
Doing so has become a fun part of our hobby none the less.

However, "Home Made" efforts do come "close enough" to Retail costs
THAT it tells me something about being over charged.
I'm simply observing the economics here and reporting my conclusions.

IF the World Economy can produce the "Old Style" brushed motors for
next to nothing ( $3- $7 retail for 280-400 sizes )

THEN that same World Economy ought to be capable of delivering
a much simpler Brushless motor to me for about the same cost or less.

Dont even get me started on the rise of Deisel fuel prices.

rebell

Dec 23, 2005, 05:50 PM

Brussless is way to expensive. For the small motors there is the alternative of DIY, still costly anyway, but where are the big motors. Here the cost fly away, even the cost of the not so small motors. As much as I want to go big on electric, gas flying still beat its cost by far.

I am convinced that somewhere along the line the price is inflated to much. Until this changes, myself and all of my flying friends are gas flying on all but the most small planes.

pmackenzie

Dec 23, 2005, 06:03 PM

what inovation? they are 3 phase ac motors, you can find large ones in any factory, & small ones in any cd-rom, hard disk, floppy drive, case fan, processor fan, in fact I'd bet that anyone reading this has at least 5 brushless motors in the pc you are using to read this..... & it's been what? 25 years since the floppy drive was invented?

No, the only inovation that I see is that we found that they are very good in rc airplanes, cars, helicopters & such....
They are not the same thing as 3 phase induction motors "in any factory". Not even close.
The closest AC motor to a brushless DC motor is an AC servo motor. Price one of those and see how a quality non CDrom based
motor stands up in price.
There are lots of very cheap ( price and quality) CD rom based motors out there. No need to wait.
There are also cheap inrunners out there as well, but they don't compare to something like a Plettenberg or a Neu motor in quality or performance.
Pat Mackenzie

pmackenzie

Dec 23, 2005, 06:06 PM

For an inexpensive big motor try here (http://www.balsapr.com/catalog/motors/BPBrushlessView.asp?ProductId=V736362) .
I have a couple. The snow has kept me from trying one in the air, but bench tests look promising.
500-600 watts input on 4S Lipo swinging a 13x7 prop.
Pat MacKenzie

barneyk

Dec 23, 2005, 07:23 PM

I think there is one more thing that needs said...."popularity". Pricing as the market will bear is strong in the world market. $$$ run all industry. If people arent interested in buying something, it simply pays NOthing to a "company" to invest in the R&D needed.
The big hiccup comes when those that would pay the inflated price for an item, DO so. If 'we' as a buying public didnt buy overpriced stuff...... prices would drop, like a rock. Watch the prices of motors, as the sales drop off (usually because theres a brand new one with marketing and advertisement slpashed allll over) the prices drop dramatically. One can soon see the 'actual' or reasonable prices come, and then go, as stocks dimish.
still a MAJOR fun sport. Sounds like its time the DIY folks will SOON market the larger designs as DIY kits. Hey, manufacturers...... Theres a market here. (sic) okay,okay, sorry, im off my soapbox now.

rebell

Dec 24, 2005, 02:35 AM

What about battery and motor control electronics, its part of the power system and also expensive, if not more. One must consider the complete package. Plus, in order to get some acceptable flying time per day, you need more battery packs, it is not just refuelling and of you go as with gas.

Gas flying does have its negative points and that is why flyers are looking at alternative power. But, in total, it will be a long time before the bigger electric stuff is affordable for the average flyer.

Looooeeee!

Dec 24, 2005, 01:47 PM

Remember it's the batteries nowadays that make large systems expensive. I'm wondering about the actual cost at the factory of making a Lipo 3000 mah single cell.

birdofplay

Dec 24, 2005, 02:57 PM

The latest AMA mag has a pece on Lipo construction along
with a dissection of one. yeilding a 6' long seperator plus plates !!!

BTW I also just posted a "What The Hell" on another thread
regarding ORDERING from KOMODO !

My Mozilla wont allow the pulldowns but DOES add what I can see to the Cart
So I try Explorer and IT wont add anything to the cart but allows the pulldowns.

I updated Mozilla, Windoz XP Pro and Java.
Never EVER had a problem like this one.

I'd rather be WINDING than fooling with this kinda stupidity.

ecologito

Dec 24, 2005, 04:40 PM

ryanl2006

Dec 25, 2005, 12:27 AM

I will try and shed some light here on the price of brushless motors...

Take your average brushless motor and compare it to your average brushed motor. The brushed motor has standard ferrite magnets, nothing on the motor is colored, nothing is machined. It will generally have bushings or cheap bearings.

Now look at the brushless motor...it is almost all CNC machined and anodized or plated. The magnets are high quality neyodium (sp?). There is actual ball bearings.

Just because it is easier to design a brushless motor does not make it any easier or cheaper to build them. What it really comes down to is cost of parts. Your average brushed motor costs pennies to build. An average brushless motor probably costs $5-$8 or more to build. If companies mass produced brushless motors to the quality standards that brushed motors are made, performance would not be any better then a brushed motor.

This is evidenced as lower and lower quality brushless motors are being made. Compare some of the numbers of some cheap no name brushless off ebay to one of the better ball bearing brushed motors...they will be a lot closer then most people think. A lot of people think "oh brushless, its so much better" just because its brushless. This is true for some motors that are very high quality, but with the way the market is headed, a lot of brushless motors are decreasing in performance.

Take axi for example. IMO they had a nice quality motor, and they were one of the originals too. Then everyone started complaining about price and look...they released a "silver line" that is less efficient but cheaper. I am afraid before long, most brushless motors will be 'cheap', both pricewise and quality wise...

Littlescreamers

Dec 25, 2005, 10:28 AM

"Quote"
I am afraid before long, most brushless motors will be 'cheap', both pricewise and quality wise...
Speak for yourself!

I have been around a very long time now and I am still working everyday to improve my designs and to make our motors the best of the best. I will never compromise quality in any way! Look at what I have done over the last year and the ammount of Money we (Me) have spent to better our products and offer a motor that can do everything they ask and more. The mold alone was $1,000s But was worth every penny.

Just my 2 cents

Scott
Littlescreamers.com

ryanl2006

Dec 25, 2005, 02:48 PM

Scott- No one said you were turning your motors into junk.

Look how far my motors have come. I know you like your plastic motors, but just wait till you see what we are coming up with. No thousands of dollar moulds either... expensive doesnt always mean better, you will see.

galloping gimp

Dec 26, 2005, 03:16 AM

I've never understood the thinking behind these periodic complaints about the prices of brushless motors. It seems to happen about twice a year.

You do understand how markets work, don't you? I'm no ecomonics genius, but even I understand the extremely simple concept that a product is worth what someone will pay for it. No more, no less.

If you believe the price of a product is insane, there is a very simple solution: Don't buy it!

Consider my own behavior. I've seen the nice motors turned out by guys like Scott and Ryan, and by larger manufacturers like Model Motors (Axi). If my budget allowed, I would buy them! But my budget is tight, so I've been making my own motors instead.

If enough consumers act in this manner, a diverse and robust market will always, ALWAYS correct itself. The manufacturer might reduce his price or go out of business for lack of sales, or other manufacturers offering more for our money might enter the field.

On the other hand, if enough consumers think a manufacturer is charging a fair price, the company will prosper.

Manufacturers aren't stupid. If a manufacturer of brushless motors could make more money by selling at a lower price, don't you think he would do it?

On the other hand, if a manufacturer can maximize his profit by selling at a high price, why on earth would he reduce it?

It's the most basic kind of common sense.

- Jeff

hroachen

Dec 26, 2005, 05:10 PM

With all due respect ...

It's way easier on outrunners because the windings dont spin.
No centrifigal forces to worry about or compensate for.

FYI, the windings don't spin on the inrunners either.

pmackenzie

Dec 26, 2005, 05:33 PM

I think he was contrasting a brushless outrunner to a standard brushed motor. The central core of both looks very similar.
Lots of larger DIY LRK motors are made from 12 pole brushed armature laminations.

Pat Mackenzie

ryanl2006

Dec 26, 2005, 05:56 PM

Jeff poses a really good point. Look at a lot of the little motor companies such as myself...I can barely keep motors in stock as it is because of the demand, so I have no real reason to lower the price. I could probably even raise it some and still sell just as many, but I do not want to and will not do that to the RcGroups community.

94ZA4

Dec 26, 2005, 06:18 PM

It is not all the cost of the motor, it is also the middle man. It also depends on who puts there label on it. For example, one of the motors I sell is identical to a Feigao motor, so much so I believe that they are produced by the same manufacturer, just with diffrent labels. I know this is a case with a couple of my other motors. You tag a brand name on, and the price instantly goes up, for the vendor as well as the end consumer. I realize that there is the issue of supply and demand, but some times I think the companys take it to far in the profit grabbing.

Andrew

galloping gimp

Dec 26, 2005, 06:28 PM

Some additional points.

The prices of brushless motors are, on average, WAY down from where they were just a few years ago. Relatively few people bought them because they were just too expensive for most budgets. Today, brushless motors are much more affordable.

If the typical can motor was manufactured in the same low volume as R/C-type brushless motors -- perhaps a few thousand a year -- the can motors would be very expensive, too. But Mabuchi and a few other manufacturers produce those can motors by the millions for use in countless consumer products, and one of the benefits of this mass production has been inexpensive can motors for R/Cers.

Inexpensive, mass-produced brushless motors already exist; they are found in the millions of CD-ROM drives, tape drives, and DVD players produced each year. The cost to manufacture one of those brushless motors is probably less than $1. They are machine-made by the millions, which keeps the price low. Sadly, they are only marginally useful for R/C purposes.

If only there was a mass market use for R/C-type brushless motors! Then we'd see huge factories cranking them out in volumes that would send the prices plummeting. As it is, the tiny number of brushless motors being sold for R/C usage is too small to interest the big manufacturers.

All the better for Scott and Ryan!

- Jeff

galloping gimp

Dec 26, 2005, 06:52 PM

Hi Andrew-

Don't you think customers are smart enough to recognize the "profit grabbing" companies and avoid them? It seems to me the responsibility to spend my money wisely falls squarely on me, the consumer.

Besides, sometimes there are good reasons to pay more for an identical product. Better warranty, maybe? Readily available service and repair? I'll pay more for things like this.

With discussions forums like RC Groups available, there is little excuse for getting a bad deal on R/C items!

- Jeff

birdofplay

Dec 26, 2005, 07:19 PM

Way to go Andrew and AWL hobbies too. You both seem to have
a sense of reality with your prices and some respect for hobyists.

I do undeerstand markets and arrogance and greed as well.
There lots of modelers on the planet. Not as many as CDROM users
but certainly enough to allow Economies of Scale to kick in by now.

If prices were not as artificially high as they are then all the little mfgrs could
not even get even in to the game. Their margins are not a good as
the big importers. Of course they offer a degree of innovation also.

I try to avoid "over marketed" and "over middlemaned" products in all situations.

For some folks Part of the fun of the hobby is keeping costs.

For others it's how much can I spend to show off to my buddies.

It's a big hobby with room for both.

I'm just glad to see that electric power has achieved a real presence

fhhuber506771

Dec 26, 2005, 07:32 PM

The prices of the brushless motors are coming down already.... not as fast as some would like... but they are getting cheaper.

Figaro has a .40 equiv brushless outrunner for under $50 street price now...

The brushless ESC's on the other hand are much more complex than the brushed types... you can expect to always have to pay twice as much (or more) for a brushless ESC as for an equal amp rated brushed type.

The LiPos are also comming down in price and getting better about capacity for weight... I paid less for my 950 mah 2s1p pack than my 750 mah 2s1p, and the 950 is lighter. There was just 6 months between the 2 purchases. Then I bought a 3s1p 1200 pack for the same price as the 950 2s1p... 9 months later.

So... the costs of going E-power ARE comming down. (and the dollar is getting to be lower and lower value compared to many foreign currencies... making imports more expensive, which means if the dollar was stronger the e-power stuff would be EVEN CHEAPER!) and the technology is getting better.

Its a good time to be in the hobby... I can remember when you could get a GOOD used car cheaper than a low end 4 ch RC system.

94ZA4

Dec 26, 2005, 07:48 PM

I agree that there are times that you absolutely must pay more for a name brand product, but I also believe that in many cases a less expensive, high quality alternitive is just as good. If you buy a no named product, identical, made by the same manufacturer, as a good brand name, you are getting the same quality, interchangeable parts, and saving sometimes up to 50%. Warentee can be an issue with less well know products, that is whay I back them up myself. Why should the customer have to deal with the manufacturer if soemthing is not right (unless in like Ryans case, they are the manufacturer, and distributer). If a part fails, I deal with the manufacturer, and replace it for the customer. I have a written 30 day return policy, but in most cases will replace or refund if soemthing fails, no matter how long it has been.

Jeff, I don't think the consumers are stupid, just mislead. There has been a stigmata arround brushless, that it is some kind of magic worth paying three or 4 times as much for a setup as for a brushed. That simply is not the case. Prices are coming down, quality is good, and small enterprise is leading the way. We need to support the small guy like Ryan, so he can keep producing top notch items at a low price.

Birdofplay- I am a hobbiest, that is why I have respect for them. :)

The one thing that does drive me nuts is MSRP. I have dropped brands over this. I recieved some battery packs in excahnge for another item that was out of stock from one of my vendors. These packs, at the time, were basically unheard of, and could find no pricing. I priced them at a decent rate, making a good profit, but not overcharging. I was contacted by the manufacturer with a very nasty letter saying that I was charging way too low. Too low? Comapred to what? They got thier money, my supplier got his, and I am making a couple of bucks too, but passing on a good deal. Needless to say I have never, and will never sell their line of products again. Then you have major brands that barely give you any cut in price, so profits are soooo low, you have to sell at or near the MSRP to make a buck or 2.

Andrew

jskrebs

Dec 27, 2005, 09:51 AM

Give me an order for "1 million motors" and I'll get you a price that will knock you socks off.

I typically sell 1 to 20 motors at a time, and manufacture in lots of 10 to 40. All the small scale motor guys do a lot of the assembly work by hand, and can't generate enough cash flow to automate fully.

In my day job I am a Automation and Efficiency consultant, and it would amaze people to see what a per piece price is on things like Pop Tarts, light bulbs, Chef Boyardee, automotive components, kitchen cabinets really is. However the flip side is the massive infrastructure required and the speed at which the lines are running, so fast a human could not count the parts wizzing by. Same with the motor Mfg's I work with, a motor for a electric weed whip is made in about 1 minute elapsed time from raw material to finished part tested and ready to ship, humans rarley touch the part as it is processed. The investment the company made in the line is well over 1 million dollars, it is semi flexible and can do several different types and sizes, but can't do lot sizes less than 10K pieces and make money. And it can't do CDR's, I asked, they are to small.

I recommend supporting the small domestic companies like Little Screamer, Custom CDR, GO Brushless, Astroflight, Castle Creations etc..
American Manufacturing is not dead,the plants I call on are considered world class, compete globally, and some are pulling products back from China to North America.

Jeff
Westport-Design

galloping gimp

Dec 27, 2005, 12:51 PM

There has been a stigmata arround brushless, that it is some kind of magic worth paying three or 4 times as much for a setup as for a brushed. That simply is not the case.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. The "worth" of something is exactly what a customer is willing to pay for it. No more, no less.

What's worth it to me may not be worth it to you. I happen to think that the prices from Ryan and Scott are quite fair. Perhaps I can't afford them at the moment, but to me their products are very definitely worth what they charge. I've built enough of my own motors to appreciate the time and care that goes into building a good one.

- Jeff

pmackenzie

Dec 27, 2005, 01:59 PM

There has been a stigmata arround brushlessI am sure you meant stigma.

A stigmata is something completely different. Spontaneous bleeding of the hands and/or feet similar to the wound Jesus suffer on the cross.
http://www.crystalinks.com/stigmata.html
A Freudian slip perhaps, given the time of year?

A stigma usually represents a negative association. Sticking with the religious symbolism, halo would have been a better choice.
Pat MacKenzie

94ZA4

Dec 27, 2005, 02:42 PM

I am sure you meant stigma.

A stigmata is something completely different. Spontaneous bleeding of the hands and/or feet similar to the wound Jesus suffer on the cross.
http://www.crystalinks.com/stigmata.html
A Freudian slip perhaps, given the time of year?

A stigma usually represents a negative association. Sticking with the religious symbolism, halo would have been a better choice.
Pat MacKenzie

Wow, cool. I did not realize I did that. I meant stigma.

94ZA4

Dec 27, 2005, 02:48 PM

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. The "worth" of something is exactly what a customer is willing to pay for it. No more, no less.

What's worth it to me may not be worth it to you. I happen to think that the prices from Ryan and Scott are quite fair. Perhaps I can't afford them at the moment, but to me their products are very definitely worth what they charge. I've built enough of my own motors to appreciate the time and care that goes into building a good one.

- Jeff

No, I agree with you on this point. I think that Ryan and Scott are absolutely fair, and they both have great products. Thier motors are worth the extra money, because they are mostly hand wound, and give them TLC. I have no problem with the small guy charging a higher price for a quality product. My comments were dirrected towards the larger companies like Axi, Hacker, etc... They pump these things out buy the hundreds of thousands, but still charge prices that I believe are out of line for what you get.

I totaly stand behind the small motor guy with a good product. But I do think there are less expensive alternitives to the mass produced, more expensive motors. See what I mean?

Andrew