Espada HN 785JM

[davidleitch]

The centre panel on my two year old molded electric 3 metre plane broke after one too many high g turns last week and I would like to get a replacement.

I've been considering a number of models, however electric fuselages are still the last piece of kit to be completed say for a Supra.

One plane that caught my eye was the Espada from Jaro Muller and sold by www.euromodell.de which in 2006 will come in a 3.7 metre version. Right now its only available in 3.1 metre version if I want the electric fuselage.

This plane was mainly developed for F3B and so I think it is going to be heavy as an electric glider.

I wondered if anyone has any experience or comments on this kit. Its difficult to find any meaningful information in English. I've spent some time at www.rc-network.de but not speaking German its difficult.

I'd also be interested in some comment about the airfoil HN-785 JM particularly as a thermalling airfoil.

Overall I kind of get the impression its a good plane and well built but not going to win anything at F3B or F3J perhaps because it has the wrong pilot or its a bit heavy or the airfoil doesn't quite do it.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[jojoen]

The centre panel on my two year old molded electric 3 metre plane broke after one too many high g turns last week and I would like to get a replacement.

I've been considering a number of models, however electric fuselages are still the last piece of kit to be completed say for a Supra.

One plane that caught my eye was the Espada from Jaro Muller and sold by www.euromodell.de which in 2006 will come in a 3.7 metre version. Right now its only available in 3.1 metre version if I want the electric fuselage.

This plane was mainly developed for F3B and so I think it is going to be heavy as an electric glider.

I wondered if anyone has any experience or comments on this kit. Its difficult to find any meaningful information in English. I've spent some time at www.rc-network.de but not speaking German its difficult.

I'd also be interested in some comment about the airfoil HN-785 JM particularly as a thermalling airfoil.

Overall I kind of get the impression its a good plane and well built but not going to win anything at F3B or F3J perhaps because it has the wrong pilot or its a bit heavy or the airfoil doesn't quite do it.

Any thoughts appreciated.
I dont think you will find any info on the airfoil. It is made for Jaro Muller...

[nuevo]

I presume the airfoil to be a derivative of the HN-785 by Norbert Habe (http://www.habebert.com/profile_menu.htm)

hn785 polars (http://www.habebert.com/pb/phn785.pdf)

[cody303]

I have a Espada but it is not electric. The total weight is about 66 ounces, and is capable of being 2 man towed in any conditions. I will be flying exclusively Espada's in the F3J World Championships along with one of my team mates next year in Martin Slovakia. This is a very interesting model, it is lighter than my light Extreme and goes up in just as light lift, and it penetrates in very strong wind. Skip Miller flew his at the USA F3J Team selections in 15-20 mph winds, and it had no troubles penetrating.

Little Cody

[dhauch]

Cody,
where is the ballast tube located in this plane ?

thx,
dave hauch

[davidleitch]

Cody

Thanks for your reply. Its quite encouraging.

[cody303]

Cody,
where is the ballast tube located in this plane ?

thx,
dave hauch

The ballast tube is located right behind the servos, see the picture below. Jaro Muller makes ballast for the plane that is machined out of aluminum, and attached to a string. Its a cool way of doing it.
Little Cody

[Reto67]

The ballast tube is located right behind the servos, see the picture below. Jaro Muller makes ballast for the plane that is machined out of aluminum, and attached to a string. Its a cool way of doing it.
Little Cody
Hi Cody,

I have on with 84 pounds, but mainly used for F3B. Is your Espada a special F3J version?

Reto

[davidleitch]

Ifigure if I get in at under 3000 g for electric counting 800 g for motor and batteries I will be doing well. I have seen weights as high as 2.4 kg for the F3B version on www.rc-network.de.

I am told there is only one version of the wing layup right now. As mentioned at the top of the thread a 3.7 m 2 kg version is being produced for F3J use apparently. We shall see. 3000 g is 5% heavier than I would like and no doubt a Pike would have a lower wing loading due to more surface area.

[cody303]

Hi Cody,

I have on with 84 pounds, but mainly used for F3B. Is your Espada a special F3J version?

Reto

I think there is a full carbon version and a carbon d-box version. I know I have the carbon d-box version, is yours a full carbon version?


Little Cody

[Tom Gressman]

Cody, Let me know when you are going to test your Espada R. Tom Gressman

[Reto67]

I think there is a full carbon version and a carbon d-box version. I know I have the carbon d-box version, is yours a full carbon version?


Little Cody
Cody it looks like a D-Box version. I bought it from one of our National F3B Team member and this plane was his back up model at the last WM in Finland. It has the old pelican style fuse.

Has your Espada realy a flying weight of 66oz?

Reto

[cody303]

Yea the weight is 66 ounces. The pelican fuse weighs more, and Muller probably has improved his technique molding the plane.



Little Cody

[tknuutti]

I'm currently setting up an Espada for a friend, F3J version, carbon d-box wing with the new R canopy-style fuse. Empty weight without radio-gear was only 52 oz (~1500gr), so RTF should be low 60's. The new fuse is very light, but I think Jaro must have changed the layup of the wings a little as well from the early versions. Airfoil at the root is about 8.2% thickness, so a little thicker than the original HN785.

Jaro's own website now lists weights for both a J and a B version, so there's definitely two layups.
http://www.profi.sk/jaro_muller/en/espada.html

Will be interesting to see how it compares with a Pike, seems very promising..

[cody303]

Mine was about 52 ounces with out radio-gear, what servos are you going to use?


Little Cody

[davidleitch]

Could I ask where you guys in the USA are obtaining your planes? Euromodell appears to be the main dealer in Europe.

[tknuutti]

New Airtronics digitals are already in the wing, no problems fitting in.
Fuse will get the JR 3421s, since the servobox comes pre-fitted for them. And it's an excellent elevator servo anyway.
Any tips for the throws and cg, are Jaro's recommendations a good start?
Aileron differential with throw of +13/-4 mm seems pretty extreme.

This one came through Skip Miller, he's a very good guy to deal with
http://www.skipmillermodels.com/

[Tom Gressman]

Could I ask where you guys in the USA are obtaining your planes? Euromodell appears to be the main dealer in Europe.

www.skipmillermodels.com

[cody303]

I got mine through Skip Miller too, I will put my plane together tonight and check the throws and CG.

Little Cody

[cody303]

The ailerons are + 12 mm/ - 6 mm, the amount of flaps mixed in with the ailerons is + 5 mm/ - 3 mm, the elevator is +- 7 mm from the leading edge of it, and the CG is 9.5 cm from the leading edge of the wing.

Little Cody

[tknuutti]

Thanks a lot for the numbers Cody!
RTF weight of low 60's turned out to be a little optimistic, we ended up at 67 oz (1910 gr) with the recommended cg of 93mm. Despite the long nose it needed 2.5 oz of lead to balance. Maiden tomorrow if conditions co-operate.

[davidleitch]

The weight's really encouraging. However I'm sure the electric fuselage will be heavier. Personally I like the keel version with its built in skeg but I seem to be in a big minority.

Hmm I think I will also get a glider fuselage despite it being 70 minutes drive to the nearest winch from where I live. There's so many F3J guys around the place there must be something going for it.

Its funny I thought I was going to be getting a porky F3B thing and I'm hearing about this lightweight fast, strong F3J machine.

[tknuutti]

The electric-fuse is also really light, only 319 grams for a X-tail with stabs in place (the pelican-type fuse). Finished installing the gear last night, RTF without motor-pack is 2130 gr and with a 10-cell GP2200 pack 2610 gr. And this is with a rather heavy 4-cell 2500 Nimh Rx-pack, big Phx-125 controller and a Futaba PCM-receiver. Motor is a 220-series geared Pletti.

Glider version flew great, launches very fast and strong on the winch. Speed envelope is big and top cruise speed probably even a little faster than a Pike Superior.

[davidleitch]

That's great news. I plan a 12 cell gp2200 pack but a UBEC instead of receiver pack and hope to finish at 2.7 kg or less. My motor will be either a Hacker B40 F5F or similar, propped for around 110-120 amps.

Very much looking forward to the arrival of this model. I would be interested in a comment on the performance of the electric version v theglider version.

[tknuutti]

We put a couple flights on the electric-version yesterday - no surprises there, flies solid and still behaves very well at slower turns (stalls very gentle and gives fair warning before it does). The 700 extra grams do show though and climbing in weak lift is a lot harder. On the plus side of course penetration is excellent and energy retention quite good.
A setup like this makes a great all-arounder/hotlinish plane. If looking for a more thermal-practice type ship, I'd go with a lighter setup - light 3s lipos, smaller esc and maybe even smaller motor - to keep weight closer to the glider version.

On a sidenote - I'd be very cautious about using a BEC of any kind with a powersystem that's pulling 100+ amps. If something fails in the powertrain the whole airframe is likely to get destroyed. Also after motor cut-off a zapped nimh-pack doesn't have too many electrons left in it to run the radio. IMO it's the wrong place to save 50 grams.

[Tom Gressman]

Thanks a lot for the numbers Cody!
RTF weight of low 60's turned out to be a little optimistic, we ended up at 67 oz (1910 gr) with the recommended cg of 93mm. Despite the long nose it needed 2.5 oz of lead to balance. Maiden tomorrow if conditions co-operate.

What is your experience with the Espada R to date? How does it compare to other F3J models you have flown? Tom

[tknuutti]

Can't really say much about the Espada yet. We haven't flown it since the maiden Xmas-eve, weather in SLC has been stormy and snowy and better suited for skiing..

From first impression the Espada is similar to a Pike Superior, basic cruise speed is rather fast, but camber slows it down well. Handles maybe a little crisper than a Pike because of the smaller span and narrow wings.
Definitely a plane that needs 'active' piloting - one has to venture out into good lift, boating around the field doing slow circles in junk air won't give good results. In that sense a slower, 'floatier' plane like an Eraser Xtreme is easier to fly, but the Espada is certainly more exciting.

[davidleitch]

Hi

I started an Espada build thread with the Pelican electric fuselage and also the R glider fuselage in electric gliders. I put it there because I primarily fly electric.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=466216

[Tom Gressman]

Can't really say much about the Espada yet. We haven't flown it since the maiden Xmas-eve, weather in SLC has been stormy and snowy and better suited for skiing..

From first impression the Espada is similar to a Pike Superior, basic cruise speed is rather fast, but camber slows it down well. Handles maybe a little crisper than a Pike because of the smaller span and narrow wings.
Definitely a plane that needs 'active' piloting - one has to venture out into good lift, boating around the field doing slow circles in junk air won't give good results. In that sense a slower, 'floatier' plane like an Eraser Xtreme is easier to fly, but the Espada is certainly more exciting.

I had a chance to fly Cody Remington's Espada R at 66 oz. I would generally agree with your observations. Cody told me recently that with careful experimentation regarding camber is getting very good float. In comparison with the Superior I ahve been told that it has a higher L/D! I have one on order through Skip. The Slovakians were second in team at the 05 Eurochamps flying Espadas. . Tom Gressman

[cody303]

I had a chance to fly Cody Remington's Espada R at 66 oz. I would generally agree with your observations. Cody told me recently that with careful experimentation regarding camber is getting very good float. In comparison with the Superior I ahve been told that it has a higher L/D! I have one on order through Skip. The Slovakians were second in team at the 05 Eurochamps flying Espadas. . Tom Gressman


Last weekend I had the Espada out in very light lift conditions. I was trying to get a 3 min flight off my high start, but got times under 2 min. I then started using about 3/4 of the camber I do in a thermal and could tell the plane was hanging a lot better. I was getting times around 2:45 and 3 min.

Little Cody

[tknuutti]

Cody,
Are you using the recommended max travel for camber (only 3mm) or more?
I've seen similar behaviour with a Pike, heavy camber will slow the plane down more, but hangtime will actually suffer if you go too far. It's better to let the plane fly a little faster.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

-Tauno

[cody303]

I am using 3mm camber max. I found using 3/4 of that was best when in dead air. When I went to full camber the plane did slow down too much and the hang time suffered. I also found that using snap flaps help it a lot in a turn.

Little Cody

[georgeg]

Cody,
Is your Espada the R version or the nose cone version? How do you think the R would do in US TD type competition? I notice Skip Millers web site shows a 74 oz RTF weight which is a lot more than what yours weighs.

[cody303]

Mine is the Espada R it is the white and red one pictured on Skips website, the weight he has posted it wrong. I think the Espada will do very good in a US TD competition. The flying characteristics are amazing, and the plane lands very slow, and you don't even need a skeg as the nose sticks in the ground very easy. I will be flying mine in the South West Classic so that will be the real test.


Little Cody

[tknuutti]

First Espadas were full-on F3B-layups and they do weigh around 74-75 oz RTF. Jaro now makes 2 different layups, B and J. The lighter F3J versions consistently end up at 66-67 ounces.
F3J layup is a carbon-d-box and spar feels very strong, no noticeable wing flex on full-pedal launches into a 10 mph headwind.

[dhauch]

hey cody,
how does that plane launch compared to others you've seen ?

can you get real aggresive on launch settings with no snap, and
have you done any cross wind launching with it ?

thx,

dave

[cody303]

I have been mostly launching off a high start, but I have flown a few days off a winch, and one day off a two man tow. I think it out launched every thing Tom Gressman was flying, one of those being a Pike. Tom is that what you saw? For the two man tows it brought the towers to a stop in 3 mph wind, was very fast, with an incredible zoom. I haven't launched in much crosswind, but down wind launches are very good. I still think I can change the launch setup to get more height out of the launch.


Little Cody

[dhauch]

thanks cody!

i heard the f3b version has a different airfoil ???
i didn't know this.

dave

[cody303]

It looks like the F3J and F3B have the same airfoil on Jaro's website, but I am not sure about that.

http://www.profi.sk/jaro_muller/en/espada.html

Little Cody

[dhauch]

i seen that too.
maybe he was thinking of another model.

dave

[oakman7004]

Mabye it is the Trinity who uses the MG06 for F3J and HD45 for F3B that you are thinking about...

This is the glider that pops up into my mind that uses 2 differnt airfoils depending on use B or J...and still has the same name! http://www.soaringusa.com/products/subcategory.htm?category_id=293

Back to the Espada. I truley think that this lady will do well at WC, especially now with the new weights(66oz). I've seen this glider on the some WC and International F3B comp and the airfoil do have legs and still do well in duration. BUT it is a plane that need to be flown activly, as already said.
The R fuse is a tremedeus improvement since the first pelican fuses were heavy, and I think that the pelican fuse is butt ugly...

At last it would be nice to see some success from another glider than the Pike or Sharon...it's good for us as customers.

Anyone now anything about the RXL (beside the drawings and that it is not available before May), flight performance, weights etc. ?

my .02

Cheers Jonas Ekman

[cody303]

I just got back from practicing with Skip Miller today. He told me the next shipment of Espada R will weigh 61 ounces, and will be stronger. The RXL should be interesting, its supposed to be for the early morning and light air flights. I have one on order, but it will be a while before it comes in.


Little Cody

[POF]

Have you checked the delivery time for this model? I thinks it's very long. But nice glider:O)

[davidleitch]

Anybody used the Espada RXL and have any comments or experiences they wish to share?

[cody303]

The Espada RL is an awesome plane. It is like a less racy more forgiving R. It hangs and climes better than any F3J Plane I have seen, that is expected when a 3.7 meter weighs 68 ounces. It is very good in average conditions. It will still fly in wind and do very well, the R is just better at it. It slows down and is very easy to land. The craftsman ship on it is amazing. It will become a very popular plane.


Little Cody

[little flyer]

I've had a little experience with a Espada RL. One thing I can say is it is LIGHT! The other is that it is hard to get out of trees when it is 35 feet up.

Jeff
Who got the plane down. Safely!

[Güni]

Hello guys,

I fly Espada R & RL for Eurochamps 2007 in Slovakia.
My wife is also flying espada with the same settings.
Weight from R = 1726gr and RL = 1831gr
I fly always without ballast. No problem for the models.
I had made one modification on the models.
Turbulator on the wingtips 40% from airfoil 20 cm long.
Elevator 45% over whole elevator ( bottom )
It's perfect now in turns also for flat thermals.
CG = 100 mm
Aileron up = 15mm
Aileron down = 5mm
Rudder mix aileron = 25mm
Elevator up = 10mm
Elevator down = 15mm
Butterfly flap = 85°
Butterfly Aileron = 6mm
Butterfly Elevator down = 28%
Start aileron = 4mm
Start flap = 6mm
Thermal aileron & flap on throttle stick = 0mm => 7mm

I hope this can help some one ?

greets from Belgium,
Gunther

[nxtdoor]

Gunther, how about a posting a picture of each of your modifications.

I am curious why you felt you need to add the turbulators?

Thanks.

Jeff

[Güni]

Hi Jeff,

@ this time i'm not at home. ( Training for Euro Champs 2007 )
When i'm back home i send you some pics.
Why i add turbulators ?
Model was not turning well in small thermals.

The model is turning now much better in small thermals with the turbs ons.
We ( my friend and me ) we had some conversation with Norbert Habe.

My wife is also flying with Espada and for her are the turbulators also verry good on the model.

greets,
G

[nxtdoor]

I look forward to seeing your turbs.

I have not been comfortable in small thermals compared to my Stratos.

Thanks.

Jeff