AeroAce- How to turn on turn control with throttle off?

[hoppy]

It would seem that that there would be a power or signal input to the throttle control that feeds the turn control when the throttle is advanced. So why couldn't that power/signal feed be fed to the turn control at all times by running a wire from the input to the throttle control to the whatever on the turn control?

I wish I knew enough about the electronics to figure it out but it's beyond me.

Anybody got any ideas on how to activate that turn control with the throttle off?

[mharms]

hoppy,
The Aero-Ace only has the two motors. There is no actuator -- no control surfaces that move. It turns by adjusting the thrust of each of the motors (differential steering). Throttle off = no thrust difference = no steering. Takes a little getting used to, but it works pretty well.

Mark

[quax]

The only way to steer with power off is to use a modified transmitter:
http://home.versanet.de/~b-konze/xtwin/xtwin_en.htm

Then you have also the advantage, that each motor is controlled by 16 steps and it feels like a proportional steering.

Quax

[NitroCharged]

Quax,you automatically assume everyone has the skills and software/hardware to do this :(

What would be more benefitial is a laymans way to do this, or an explanation for electronically challenged modellers to do understand what they have to do.

[quax]

NitroCharged,

I really don't assume that. It's only a hint, that a solution exists.

We often practice a skill-collection. I'm responsible for electronics and an otherone has a lathe and makes bells for our DIY-brushless motors. This way the most important is to know about a solution (and to know someone, who does it ;))

Quax

[mharms]

quax,
Your mod is nice in that it gives more steps, making steering smoother and giving more low-end steps. Still, if the motors are truly off, you won't have any ability to steer (I know you know this -- I'm just saying that for anyone unfamiliar with the AeroAce and differential steering).

Mark

[quax]

mharms,

sure, you can steer with motors off!

My software switches a single motor on, if you steer and power is off.

The problem is that you only may give short pulses or you have to switch on the "stumble mode". This two motor driven model can not fly with only one motor constantly on and the other off. Then it goes into tailspin, but leaves it immediately, if you want.

You can do additional aerobatics or short pulses for direction control.

Quax

[mharms]

Quax,
I think I see what you mean. So your mod allows the pilot to momentarily turn a single motor on (while the other is off) to make it steer. I see that would work.

Mark

[hoppy]

hoppy,
The Aero-Ace only has the two motors. There is no actuator -- no control surfaces that move. It turns by adjusting the thrust of each of the motors (differential steering). Throttle off = no thrust difference = no steering. Takes a little getting used to, but it works pretty well.

Mark

I'm aware of that Mark and the mod that Quax has made... what I'm interested in is a way to mod the AeroAce TX to turn on the "Turn Control" (motors if you will) when the throttle stick is on zero.

Perhaps quax has just showed me and I don't understand it, that's entirely possible:) I'll look at it again although I don't have a lot of hope that it is suddenly going to be clear. How does the "Turn Control" know that the throtle control is on and should now provide turn power to the motors? Can't we give it that same knowledge when the throttle is off.

Am I making any sense????

[Graham Stabler]

the fact is that even if it is modified to provide turning with the power off (by turning on one motor rather than slowing one as usual?) it will not be nice to fly in that mode. Better to just learn to fly it as it is, blip the throttle as needed etc.

Graham

[hoppy]

"it will not be nice to fly in that mode"

Why not? In many cases my plane gets high and the only way to get it back down is to cut the motor and it sure would be nice to be able to control the glide path without powering up every time I want to turn. Sure it can be flown like you described because that is how it has to be flown the way it is, but can't we do better?

Hey, just read you post again...are you saying the motors don't speed up to turn, they slow down? It sounds like they are speeding up...am I wrong?

[loc nar]

Does anyone remember this plane? It was popular a year or so ago under different names and is still being sold by Megatech. http://www.a2zhobbies.com/Megatech/RC_Airplanes/MEG-7700.html

It has similar flight controls as the aeroace except it does not have variable throttle. It's either full on or full off, but it does have what is suggested in this thread. With throttle off, pushing the stick left will cause the right motor to start running at a low speed and same for right stick which causes the left motor to start running. So it is possible. We just need to find how to mod the aeroace Tx.

If the aeroace could have this mod, it may save some planes from flying away. If they get too high, there is no way to get them down, especially if the wind is taking it higher. If you could give left or right to cause them to spin, without giving both motors throttle, you may be able to save it.

[hoppy]

If the aeroace could have this mod, it may save some planes from flying away. If they get too high, there is no way to get them down, especially if the wind is taking it higher. If you could give left or right to cause them to spin, without giving both motors throttle, you may be able to save it.

That's what I'm talking about! (From the voice of experience)

[quax]

<loc nar> wrote:
If you could give left or right to cause them to spin, without giving both motors throttle, you may be able to save it.

This is indeed the most important advantage, that this mode offers. More than once I saved my X-Twin from flying away or picking it out of a tree. :D

Quax

[hoppy]

Quax,
I see that you've done what I was asking for.... I just have to spend some time with it to understand it all. Is the AeroAce TX the same board as the one you modified?

[MonkeySee]

It would seem that all we need is to switch the Tx from slowing one motor for turn to speeding one motor for turn.
In the throttle off position, slowing one motor will do noting. But speeding one up would cause one to turn when the other isn't.

IMHO, that's what we need to be looking into.
MS

[quax]

The control information is not a PPM signal, but something like a PCM signal.

That means, you have to change the tx-coding, and not an offset or something like that. The sticks' outputs are digital signals and not analog signals. Silverlit decided obviously never to run one single motor. The original Tx is a black box with an unknown controller and unknown code. Therefore you cannot change the function.

Unfortunately this makes it complicated to change this behaviour.

You need to generate a new tx information, that is sent with 27MHz and 100% modulation. E.g., you can slaughter the board to use the powerstage of the RF section with your own X-Twin-PCM signals.

The easiest way is to modify a X-Ufo transmitter or an similar 27MHz tx, with a standard PPM signal and the ability to use the tx with 100% RF modulation. Then the hardware and software of X-Ufo modification on my homepage can mostly be used without software changes.

Sorry, but until now I don't know an easier way to get it.

Quax

[NitroCharged]

I have an idea I will try over xmas but I wont shoot my mouth off in case it is a spectacular failure - of which I have had many ;)

[Graham Stabler]

for the record I added the question mark because I was not sure if the motors slowe down or speed up.

I guessed slowed down because at full throttle hw would you ever turn? Ideally when you turned I guess it would slow one motor and speed up the other, that would mean that at the lowest throttle one motor would be off and the other on and inbetween zero and full throttle you would get turning without a loss of overall thrust. There may be a bit of an effect like this as the slowing motor will reduce the load on the battery, assuming it is a slowing motor.


Graham

[NitroCharged]

they speed up ;)

I just tried my idea on my txer and I think it's good to go as one method of achieving a solution. I am wiring it up now while I have a bit of time up my sleeve.

[Minimole]

Sounds good NC :)

Keep us updated please,
Duane :D

[NitroCharged]

I got it working but a little slack on the workmanship means sloppy response so I will now clean it up so it works better but it does work and in the way I thought it might.

I've been stuffing around trying to take a video of it but a little hard as I am the only one here at the moment.

It's good to have an idea actually work occasionally :cool:

[hoppy]

All right!! That's good news. Hope it's something simple that a simpleton like me can do:)

[micro_builder]

an easy way to "fake" a throttle-off-turn:

if you want to turn left with no throttle, hold stick at full left, blip the throttle stick up for just a second, then back down. same for turning right.

it doesnt sound like much, but doing this lets you turn without gaining any altitude at all. it lets you turn pretty tight too if you blip the throttle to full power for just a second. i was able to get my XTwins down from pretty high up by doing this,even in a pretty strong head wind. it'll let you keep controll while gliding down, or in any other "i dont want to gain more altitude!" situation.

next time you're out there flying your AA/XTwin, try it, its really simple, but quite effective, and you dont need to know how to do RX mods ;)

nick

[NitroCharged]

I just got back from 'field testing' it. I went round the corner to my local sports field. Man, what a difference it makes being able to turn it using the turn stick without throttle stick on! :D

Theres a fair breeze blowing so that was perfect for testing. I got it high -then throttled off and steered it all the way back to me and landed in my hand using just the turn stick.

I have taken a bunch of photos to show the txer mod and will post them once I get them web ready. I hope somebody else tries it.

[Hotflyer]

we await with baited breath. I have a bunch of old txs lying around that I can't wait to try this mod, whatever it may be, on :cool:

[NitroCharged]

Here is the mod. It involves switching power back on to both motors while also switching on the turn. This stops the chance of the model going into a spin.

Parts.
4 pieces of thin insulated wire 6" long.
2 conductive lugs ( like the leg of a 10W resistor - something a little strong).
A piece of flat steel, like a spade connector end.
A piece of springy steel - like a coin battery retainer.
A small flathead scew.
Some CA and solder.

Prep.
Remove the antenna and 7 retaining screws and open the txer.


Step1.
Here we are going to make a wiper arm assembly on the throttle stick.
Disassemble the throttle stick by first unscrewing the 2 retaining screws of the back panel and then the single screw holding the stick to the cct board.
Cut a small piece of the end of the spade connector type material so you end up with a rectangle about the width of the throttle arm. Solder a piece of wire to the side/edge of this.
Cut out the same amount of plastic from the base of the throttle swing arm to create a recess and superglue the piece in place.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/throttle_mod1.jpg


Get your springy steel arm and bend it around from the bottom of the throttle main assembly so it forms contact with the rectangle when it is in the off position.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/throttle_mod2.jpg


Solder a piece of wire to the end of this that sits on the bottom of the housing and then drill and screw it onto the bottom of the housing. Put the housing back together.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/throttle_mod3.jpg



Solder the other end of the wire from the bottom wiper to the 2nd pin down of the 4 solder pads you can see next to the stick assembly.
Solder a piece of wire to the 4th pin down of the 4 solder pads you can see next to the stick assembly. Remount the assembly back on the cct board and then in the txer.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/throttle_mod4.jpg


Thats that done.


Step2.
Here is where we mod the turn stick. We are going to mount 2 small lugs into the assembly and use the spring as a conductor.
Disassemble the turn stick by removing the 2 retaining screws of the back panel and then removing the housing screw.
Align the tension spring that holds the turn stick in the centre so it is sitting true and mark about half way towards the tip of each arm where the lug (resistor leg wire - something a little strong) will get touched by the spring if it is bent out by the stick. EG - while resting, the spring wont touch the lugs - when you turn left or right the spring will touch.
Drill 2 holes and make it so it will be a snug fit for the lugs. Solder a piece of wire to each 'lug' and push through the hole for each one.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/turn_mod1.jpg


Get the piece of wire that was connected to the rectangular steel wiper part of the throttle arm and after tinning the open end, wrap it around one end of the Return spring arm and squeeze it with small pliers to get a good contact. Put the spring back in place and slide the wire up to the very top of the spring arm. This gets it out the way of anything.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/turn_mod2.jpg


Put the assembly back together.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/turn_mod3.jpg


Mount the stick back in the txer.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/turn_mod4.jpg


Step3.
All we do now is join the 3 open ends of the wires left and we're done!
Grab the two wires coming from the turn stick and the wire coming from the 4th pin on the throttle cct board and solder the ends together. Insulate the join with heatshrink or tape.


http://www.nitrocharged.com/images/wiring_loom.jpg



Test it to make sure it does power up when moving the turn Stick left and right and then put the Txer housing back together.

:cool:

[hoppy]

Talk about getting your question answered... You get an A+ WELL DONE!

I've got a spare TX to try it on. (That's the good news:) - the bad news, the plane is gone, far, far away:()

[Graham Smith]

That's a clever idea.
Thanks for going to the trouble to present it so clearly.

The other Graham

[hoppy]

Looking at my TX, it looks like we can use the spring on the throttle side also. With the spring detached from the throttle, the catch for the spring just makes contact with the spring prior to zero throttle. By putting one wire on the spring and the other wire to a conductor glued to the lug, it might work for the throttle side contact.

What do you guys think? I guess the way to find out is to try it.:)

[Graham Stabler]

well done nitro!

So what does happen at full throttle? Or does this mean full throttle is not really full throttle?

Graham

[NitroCharged]

@Hoppy: Sweet! Even less work for those with the return spring. How easy is that!!? :D

[NitroCharged]

Thanks :)

well done nitro!

So what does happen at full throttle? Or does this mean full throttle is not really full throttle?

Graham
No, I selected the pins that turn the motor onto its first throttle setting ( position1 of 4).
Once you throttle up its business as usual.

[Graham Stabler]

I was meaning how does it steer at full throttle, now I know that the motors speed up not slow down

[rotortiller]

Nitrocharged,

What would happen if I just permenently soldered 1 and 4 you mentioned to a loop of wire?

Would it always be on in low speed mode?

What would then happen if i moved the stick up to one of the other 6 speeds?
Would it stay low speed or go to the correct speed or short out something?

In your solution is there still a potentially dead spot between the last normal low speed and the new forced low speed at the bottom of the stick?

[NitroCharged]

What would happen if I just permenently soldered 1 and 4 you mentioned to a loop of wire?

Would it always be on in low speed mode?

What would then happen if i moved the stick up to one of the other 6 speeds?
Would it stay low speed or go to the correct speed or short out something?

Dont do that. The cct uses a combo of the pins for different speeds. (the actual pins are 2 and 4)


In your solution is there still a potentially dead spot between the last normal low speed and the new forced low speed at the bottom of the stick?

Depending on how you make the wiper - you can set it to be microns away from first speed setting or a good push up like mine is. Remember, this is to turn when throttle is off. The motors only come back on when you actually turn at zero throttle setting. :)

[hoppy]

Here is the mod -
Short piece of copper sheet bent into a U.

[NitroCharged]

Bingo! Nice job there! :)

[hoppy]

Thank you NC, I'm impressed by your analysis of the circuit and determining how it operates, what's the story behind the discovery? :) How did you acquire the knowledge of how these things work?

Tomorrow I'll operate on the turn control.

[quax]

Graham Stabler,

the speed of the appropriate motor is increased as long as possible. At full power the other motor is lowered in speed.

Quax

[Graham Stabler]

Thanks Quax

Graham

[DannyR]

Here is the mod -
Short piece of copper sheet bent into a U.

Hobby:

So, with your setup do you still have to connect to pins 2 and 4? Or just make the mods to the turn stick and connect the wires together?

Thanks


Danny

[hoppy]

I connected one end to pin 2 and the other end goes to the turn control device just like NitoCharger directed. All I did was make a different switch arrangement that was easier for me to make.

The turn control switch is different also. I'll post pictures when I have it completed. Tried to come up with something that my big paws can accomplish. NitroCharger must have the hands of a surgeon whereas I'm a hatchet man.:) I was laughing at myself while trying to solder the wires to pins 2 and 4 because I was so clumsy.

[rkhoo]

Thanks for the mod NC.

Does this mod steers with only one motor on, when the throttle stick is at zero?

Or, this mod is simluating low-throttle plus left-right steering?

Regards.

[NitroCharged]

Graham, I wasnt sure because mine sounds like left speeds up and right slows down and since I am down to my last xtwin didnt have another one to confirm anything, so I was hoping Quax would step in soon before I replied to you.

hoppy, I have a background in this stuff. Also, this seems big and chunky to me after my last little project I made. I'll be posting on that soon.

rkhoo, The mod is doing exactly that, turning back on both motors. Its just a hard wire job :)

[hoppy]

Too what throttle level does it turn them on to?

Just one motor at a time comes on, right?

[NitroCharged]

The mod is turning back on both motors. Its just a hard wire job :)

At the same time - you are applying turn.

I have chosen to turn the motors on to their lowest throttle setting with my pin configuration.

[hoppy]

Nitrocharger,
Is there a way to just turn one motor on at a time?


The Turn Control Mod-

Little pieces of thin copper bent to shape.

[NitroCharged]

nice mod version hoppy.

I don't know if there is an easy way to turn on just one motor and I won't be investigating or trying to do it this end any time soon. I am happy with this little mod I came up with and it works well for me. Heck, the only reason I did this is because the idea jumped into my head as an easy solution while noticing how many people wanted to turn without the motors on (including me!). :)

This was a side track from a couple of high priority projects I am trying to actually finish! The old workbench is getting so cluttered with half finished stuff it's getting embarrassing. LOL!

[hoppy]

OK NC, thanks for the design and for sharing it with us. I'll report back on how it works for me....I can see how it would be much more convenent than working the throttle and turn controls simultaneously. A single motor on at a time might be way too much turn authority.:)











i

[NitroCharged]

I tightened my turns by pointing my motors in more ( I know some say out but that didnt work for me?!!) and also did the rudder trim down mod. :)

[Minimole]

I tightened my turns by pointing my motors in more ( I know some say out but that didnt work for me?!!) and also did the rudder trim down mod. :)

Hmm, thats pretty interesting.

Are there any disadvantages to pointing them in?
How did you do it, just twist them? Or pull them, up, and then restick them?
Dont suppose you have a before and after pic, showing the difference in angels of the motors?
How much did it smallen (is that a word?) the turning circle?

Sorry for my ignrance, but whats the 'rudder trim down mod'?

Sorry for all the questions.


Happy Christmas all,
Cheers, Duane :D

[NitroCharged]

I dont know any disadvantages - I just peeled them off and stuck them down again with the tip of each prop just missing the back of the wing ( I have one of those big single wing models). When I pointed them outward - the circles increased so I pointed them in and they go a lot smaller. The rudder mod is cutting about a third of the length of the rudder off the back of it.
I have also balanced the props too so they run smoother and faster.

[hoppy]

I have found the phrase "Pointing in (or out)" confusing. When you say pointing in, do you mean the motor shaft is now pointing more towards the tail, or to the nose. Pointing in to me means the motors are swiveled so they point more to the tail of the plane. Others think it means just the opposite.

They way they come is with the motors parallel to the fuselage. As you are looking at the plane from the front, would you swivel the left motor clockwise or counterclockwise?

Is it like #1 or #2?

Are you laughing yet?

[NitroCharged]

CAD Engineering software? ;)

I point the props in towards the tail, like number 1.

[Larry3215]

CAD Engineering software? ;)

I point the props in towards the tail, like number 1.

LOL

Just the opposite of what I thought you were saying!

Larry

[rotortiller]

Hoppy and nitrocharged,

You know I was going to ask the same question since I was not sure either. But I re-read the posting by NitroCharfed a couple times and convince myself that in meant "in" toward the nose like #2!

But no it is out or in whatever you like but like #1!

Very surprising that it helps to turn it that way. Maybe that is different since you have a large single wing? My motors (in stock position) already have the props very close to hitting the wings on the outside. To move them the other way is the only way I could move them but it just does not look right. Very surprising that it works for you to move them that way.


And yes I am really laughing now!!

Thanks for the laughs and the info.

Have a great Christmas!

[Minimole]

Thanks for the info

I have one of those big single wing models

Sorry, what plane is that?
I have the single wing version of the Aeroace/X-Twin, the X Flying Club or whatver, but Id really like to improve its turning circle. What do you guys think I should do?

Cheers, Duane :D

[NitroCharged]

yes - the x-twin. Since everyone was saying rip the botto wing of the biplane it didnt make much sense to buy the biplane so I went xtwin :)

I just posted above what I did to tighten the circle.

[Minimole]

Thanks for the info NC.
I had a quick go at trying to get the motors off, but it seems that the motor mount/heatsinks that the motors are in, are well and truely stuck to the wing. Did you just pull yours off? It seems like its going to rip the foam up.
Did you have to reglue the motors, or just use the adhesive still on there?

Cheers, Duane :D

[rotortiller]

Minimole,

The engines on my AeroAce have a little plate on them where they stick to the wing and are pressed up against the foam part that comes down off the wing. But the plate is just on the wing intself.

Looking at one of my 3 aeroaces the motor on one side is already starting to come unglued.

Just pull down at the prop and hold it down letting it bend the wing a bit and hold it there and see if it starts to pull away. Then just keep applying preasure. It should come unglued unstuck. I pressed mine back and it seems to still have some sticky on it.

If that does not work stick a flat screwdriver blade between the wing foam and the plate the motor is on.

If yours does not have enough sticky just use a thin piece of double sided sevo stick tape or something similar to stick it back on with.

[Minimole]

Thanks for the info.

Ill try and have a go in the morning, will post back.

Cheers, Duane :D

[NitroCharged]

Yes, they are quite sticky - one motor came off easy and the other I peeled off like described above. It was on real good. They both stayed really sticky and I just stuck them back down in the new posiion.

[Martyn McKinney]

I had posted this on another thread with no response.

I was hoping one of you guys with experience in this might comment.

Have made some reverse engineering :D at the TX and ended up with two truth tables. The first is measured at the 3 testpads marked P10, P11 and P12, wich are wired to the throttle switch section( see pictures below ).

Throttle testpads:
____P10_P11_P12
Pos0_0___0___0 power off
Pos1_0___1___0
Pos2_1___1___0
Pos3_1___0___0
Pos4_1___0___1
Pos5_0___0___1
Pos6_0___1___1
Pos7_1___1___1 max. power
Rolf
The above is a quote from RolfPW's post on page 17 post # 251.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401484&page=17&pp=15

Has anyone pulled up Pad P11 with a jumper to enable steering at the lowest powered throttle speed ?

I suspect an extra diode or resistor might be needed as well.

This would limit the low end speed to step 1 rather than step 0, but should permit steering and although it would allow only steps 1,2,6 and 7, this includes both the lowest non zero speed plus full speed.

What would happen if Pad P11 were toggled with a low frequency 555 timer, or a separate switch to disable the jumper and shut the motors off completely by putting Pad P11 back to the zero state after flying when the throttle is low?

Pad P11 grounded would allow Steps 0, 3, 4 and 5.

Toggling Pad P11 with a 555 timer might allow a slower low speed while still permitting steering.

[noone]

Maybe this will help in coming up with a way to enable steering while gliding, i.e. only one motor on at a time with the original controller. This is the full schematic for the stock controller along with a few detailed pics. Maybe some of you more technical people can come up with a solution. Also the purpose of the center tap on the battery box should be clear to anyone who can read the schematics. All of this is from the original manufacturer (Silverlit).

[Martyn McKinney]

Thank you so much !

The schematic is particularly valuable.

I'm going to look for a programmable version, but in the meantime, think about a simpler electronic (non hardware) modification to accomplish turning at low throttle.

Now I also cracked the checksum !!

1.) The data stream has to be separated into 2 bit fields.

e.g. Channel A: Power:4 -> 00(A)1001(prop1=9)1010(prop2=a)01(check)
leads to 00 10 01 10 10 and chk=01 then

2.) Then you have to build the complement+1 for each 2 bit field
(complement+1 values: 00->00, 01->11, 10->10, 11->01)
leads to 00 10 11 10 10

3.) The sum of these 2 bit fields results in the 2 bit checksum (carry is thrown away)
00+10+11+10+10=01

Examples:
Channel A: Power:2 -> 00(A)0101(prop1=5)0110(prop2=6)11(check)
00 01 01 01 10 chk=11
00+11+11+11+10=11

Channel A: Power:6 -> 00(A)1101(prop1=d)1110(prop2=e)11(check)
00 11 01 11 10 chk=11
00+01+11+01+10=11
Quax
Another way of calculating the checksum is to add the (first) 5, 2-bit fields, then truncate it to a 2 bit word.

The checksum is the 2's complement of this number. (The one's complement+1)

The 2 least significant bits of the sum of the 2-bit fields (including the checksum) will now be zero.

For the last example above

0+3+1+3+2=9=1001, which truncated is 01

The 2's complement is 10+1=11

The decimal sum of all 6 2-bit fields is now 12, which is 1100.

The last 2 bits = zero and therefore the data would have been considered error free.

[NitroCharged]

noone -thanks for this valuable info.
Let me push it and ask if you have Rxer schematics available?
I have 2 u/s rxers that I would like to fix.

[noone]

Nitro- sorry, no rx schematics.

[Hotflyer]

tried the mod and am charging up for the test flight

[NitroCharged]

good luck :)

This mod saved me from losing the model in breezy conditions the other day. (other than doing the dual stick action) I kept pointing its nose into the wind and got it to slowly return and descend to me.

[Hotflyer]

the mod worked like a charm! My one winged biplane with lights flew well above the trees and houses and was fast getting blown when I just cut throttle, waited a few seconds, turned, reoriented my plane towards me (the lights are only on when the motors are on), let it coast for a few seconds, turned furthur into the wind and towords myself and kept doing this untill it was low enough to catch. Well done Nitro Charged! You have done the one mod that makes this plane competitive with any dual prop out there! Thanks!

[Martyn McKinney]

Anyone want to try this, a jumper from P11 to + ?

It should do the same thing.

This mod will leave the motors on at low throttle and you will lose zero and your intermediate throttle settings, but will still have 1,2,6 and 7.

After posting the above, I thought of this.

Adding 2 diodes, anode to each of the turn switches and cathodes to P11, will turn the motors on when turning and permit steering regardless of the throttle setting.

With this mod the throttle will behave normally when not turning.

When turning, you will have zero throttle and steering at zero throttle including throttle settings 0,1,2,6 and 7, but will lose 3,4 and 5.

When turning, throttle position 0 (motors off) will become 1 (motors on), 3 will become 2, 4 will become 7 and 5 will become 6.

When turning, however, steps 4,5,6 and 7 in the stock system are all the same.

That means that the only step that is different with this modification is step 3 which becomes the same as step 2 when turning.

Anodes of diodes go to R10 and R12.

Cathodes to P11.

I used 1N4148 diodes. Any small signal diode should do (1N914 even 1N4001).

Works great !

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For those who have one of the Tyco Skyforce planes, here is a Zero Throttle Turn Modification for it.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7527941&postcount=585

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[hoppy]

Good show Martyn -
Couple of questions:
Do you miss the intermediate throttle steps?
Does the change in throttle setting during turns cause a problem?

[Martyn McKinney]

No and no.

As a matter of fact it's kind of fun to fly the plane at the zero throttle setting by simply turning it.

Because it still tends to climb under any power it is easy to fly it with just the turn stick and lose altitude by holding the turn or turning the motors off by not turning.

[hoppy]

You are correct, my AA's will fly level or climb slightly at the #1 power setting and I only use higher settings for climb outs so the missing middle steps would probably not be missed.

Another subject, with my earlier AA's, if I shut off the TX with the throttle in an On position, the motors would run until I turned the TX back on. With the one I just bought, the motors turn off after a sec or two on no signal. Has anyone else noticed that?

[hoppy]

I have a older "IC" type (at the time) soldering iron with what I thought was a small tip (~1/16"). My gosh, that little tip is too big for working on these boards. Doing the channel changing bridge was a chore because of the tips size.

What size tip do you use for this kind of work?

[hoppy]

Completed the conversion to Martyn's Diode mod. Very easy and cheap.

I ended up with 7 throttle settings. Here are the results:

Right Turn – Throttle = 0
Left Motor – 15,210 RPM
Right Motor 13,170 RPM

Left Turn – Throttle = 0
Left Motor – 12,930 RPM
Right Motor – 15,480 RPM

Throttle RPM's Left Motor
#1 12,900
#2 13,600
#3 14,000
#4 14,400
#5 14,800
#6 15,300
#7 15.700

Good job guys!!!!

[rotortiller]

Does anyone know what the stock throttle settings (in RPM) are for comparison?

[hoppy]

At full power, an unmoded AA turns up ~15,800 at the highest and ~13,000 at the lowest setting. Different plane with a different charge state so I would say they are the same.

[Martyn McKinney]

This modification leaves the stock throttle settings unchanged if not turning.
0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7

It is only when the turn control is used that throttle settings 0,3,4 and 5 become 1,2,7 and 6.
1,1,2,2,7,6,6,7

The RPM relationships to these throttle settings when turning is determined by the transmitter encoder and are not necessarily related to the values measured when not turning.

It would be necessary to measure them to compare them to the stock RPM values when turning.

The position of the turning trim control will also have an effect.

[Hotflyer]

hoppy-
will you post step by step info on what you did and what you used? I have done the hardware mod and now I want to try the software mod :)
I don't quite get the data stream stuff but I bet I can do it if I get it broken down a bit :o

[hoppy]

I'll measure a couple just for the heck of it.

Left motor:
# = Throttle position
#R = Left Motor speed with R turn input.

#3 14,600
#3R - 15,900

#4 - 14,900
#4R - 16,400

#5 - 15,200
#5R - 16,400

#6 - 15,800
#6R - 16,200

#7 - 16,200
#7R - 16,200

Does that match the plan Martyn?

Interesting the increase in RPM's from the first test. I did put a drop of oil on the front bearing but also charged the battery.... little of both maybe?

[hoppy]

hoppy-
will you post step by step info on what you did and what you used? I have done the hardware mod and now I want to try the software mod :)
I don't quite get the data stream stuff but I bet I can do it if I get it broken down a bit :o

I just followed directions like a good private does.:)
I removed Nitrocharger's hardware mod and installed the diodes like Martyn described in post #72. Radio Shack had the diodes, 10 for $1.59.

[Larry3215]

So you dont need to do BOTH mods. The diodes alone is enough?

Larry

[SidG]

I lost two that way. Got out of range and just flew away power on. Don't know about the newer ones.

[Martyn McKinney]

Larry3215: Only the 2 diode mod is necessary.
------------------------------------------------
The designers of this system had to make some decisions regarding turning.

For example, if at throttle positon 1, would it be best to decrease the RPM of one motor and leave the other alone, or increase the RPM of the other ?

I am curious about throttle position 7.

In the other positions, turning appears to be accomplished by increasing the RPM of the required motor.

At the maximum throttle position 7, it would appear that the RPM is not increased, but the RPM of the other motor is reduced.

To make a valid comparison it would be necessary to compare the RPM of both motors (not just one motor) not only in the modified configuration, but the stock configuration.

I would have expected #4 above to be the same as #7 and #5 to be the same as #6.

Regardless of the details, I have not noticed a difference between flying a stock system and a modified system other than the significant benefits of being able to turn at zero throttle.

I have owned many differentially controlled models over the years and the Aeroace is the best.

I never dreamed that I could fly a radio controlled model outside my house in a crowded urban environment.

[hoppy]

Update to include left and right motor speed. (Constant throttle speeds were essentially the same for both the right and left motors.)

Left motor:
# = Throttle position
#LR = Left Motor with R turn input.
#RR = Right Motor speed with R turn input.

#3 14,600
#3LR - 15,900
#3RR - 14,100

#4 - 14,900
#4LR - 16,400
#4RR - 14,000

#5 - 15,200
#5LR - 16,400
#5RR - 14,300

#6 - 15,800
#6LR - 16,200
#6RR - 14,100


#7 - 16,200
#7LR - 16,200
#7RR - 14,000

Nice Mod Martyn -

As I recall, with a straight setup, only one motor changes speed. If that is the case, this mod should make the turns sharper since one motor speeds up and one slows down in all but the #7 position. (Don't know about 1 and 2 yet)

[hoppy]

So you dont need to do BOTH mods. The diodes alone is enough?

Larry

Yup

[Martyn McKinney]

As I recall, with a straight setup, only one motor changes speed. If that is the case, this mod should make the turns sharper since one motor speeds up and one slows down in all but the #7 position. (Don't know about 1 and 2 yet)
This is a difficult situation to analyze, because the motor RPM is also a function of battery voltage.

Increasing the RPM of one motor will increase the current drain which could decrease the battery voltage decreasing the RPM of the other motor which may or may not be controlled.

The true test would be to analyze the data words transmitted which contain the motor speed information.

[hoppy]

The true test would be to analyze the data words transmitted which contain the motor speed information.

I'm glad as heck you understand 'data word' speak and was able to make the Tx do the talking we needed it to do. That stuff is all 'greek' to me.

In the end, it's like you said, "Regardless of the details, I have not noticed a difference between flying a stock system and a modified system other than the significant benefits of being able to turn at zero throttle." That about sums it up. Thanks again Martyn.

I think rototiller's question on rpm's has been answered so I'm putting the rpm meter away for another year and go fly.

[rotortiller]

Hoppy,

I am going to have to try this mod.
Did the diodes you got from Radio Shack say on them?
Does it have a Radio SHack part number?
I don't get this electronic stuff either....a part number would help.
An earlier post said:"I used 1N4148 diodes. Any small signal diode should do (1N914 even 1N4001)."
Is that what you used? Will Radio shack know what that is?

I tried to get a 1. uF cap I think it was for the throttle from Radio Shack and they did not have any, just had .1 and .01 .001.

What did you guys use?

[hoppy]

Radio Shack has reduced its one massive parts inventory to a couple of cabinets. In our store the top righthand drawer says diodes - the ones I got were labled 1N4148/1N914 and came 10 to a pack. You'll need a 15 - 25W soldering iron with a very fine tip as there is not much room between soldering points.
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=1n914

[rotortiller]

Hoppy,

Thanks I will check them out in the next day or so!

[Martyn McKinney]

with my earlier AA's, if I shut off the TX with the throttle in an On position, the motors would run until I turned the TX back on. With the one I just bought, the motors turn off after a sec or two on no signal. Has anyone else noticed that?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4851452&postcount=28

[hoppy]

So, it is true.....

Interesting that a design change was made in midstream... So something in the Rx has to be refreshed every second or so or the motors shut off? No refresh signal from the Tx, no motors?

[Larry3215]

I just did the diode mod and it works great. Got the same diodes from Radio Shack.

The soldering is not the easiest I have ever done - had to sharpen the tip on my 15 watt iron, get the reading glasses on - but it can be done. I used some helping hands and a mag glass and got thru it.

Here are some pics.

By the way - unscrew the antena BEFORE you force the case apart :) Dont have to remove it all the way from the case, but unscrew it and pull it up as far as it will go.

My case had a dab of glue in two spots inside holding it together.

By the way - if i turn off my TX my plane does not shut off completely. After 30 seconds or so it goes to low power but stays on. If I turn back on the Tx the plane does not turn off untill I move the throttle stick up then down again.

Here are some pics of the diodes in place.

Larry

[hoppy]

By the way - if i turn off my TX my plane does not shut off completely. After 30 seconds or so it goes to low power but stays on. If I turn back on the Tx the plane does not turn off untill I move the throttle stick up then down again.
Larry

So I guess the jury is still out.... when did you buy your AA? We have one bought before Christmas that does the same thing as yours... the one bought in 2006 from Target shuts down.

Good show on the diode mod....makes dead sticking (?) a lot easier.

[Larry3215]

Bought it just before xmas.

Larry

[Larry3215]

Both of mine are from TRU and both do the same thing.

Just modded the second one - piece of cake :)

Thanks guys!!!!!

Larry

[hoppy]

Anybody got a 2006 AeroAce they can test the throttle on/power off motor run test?