XC sailplane flying

[balsaaddict]

The idea of trying some cross country sailplane flying has always been a desire of mine. I do not have the money to invest in an all out XC machine. I was wondering if others have tried it with different kinds of models. One XC web site said you can try it with any sailplane from Oly IIs to Sailaires. I am going to try it this year after I get my Laser Arts "Majestic" built. Any comments on the joys and frustrations and how-tos on "low tech" XC would be appreciated.

[djnibler]

I have heard of people doing it but you obviously can't be anything close to competitive. The new XC ships like the SBXC are something out of this world. I've seen people thermal them from 25' off the deck and they are FAST! The old ships are just too slow.

But it's so much fun, you should do it with whatever you have. My only advice is to try to fly as big a ship as possible, and make sure you bring some ballast. You want it big so you can see it way up high. You want to ride only the strongest thermals, and only as often as neccessary; the rest of your time should be spent going forward! You'll obviously need a driver, and it also helps to have a navigator/backup pilot in case you get fatigued.

As a first timer, it's probably best to just join an already-formed team. I have never flown in XC but have been on a team (we didn't get very far due to a radio problem) and can't imagine trying to form my own team without experiencing it on someone else's team first.

[flystoolow]

Use anything...it is interesting that more (a lot more) skill is required to get just any old plane to fly a distance task.

No vario, we all have eyes right?

In this part of the country we do a lot of mountain thermal flying with anything 2m or larger. Even at 2500' above launch, you can tell when a 2m is climbing in a thermal.

I would try XC with at least a 100" span glider. On a good day with cu's all around and a lot of bird activity, it should be fairly easy to have a 40 minute, 10 mile flight for starters.

Good luck, I plan to try next summer with an old Sagitta 900.

[djnibler]

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304487&highlight=paramount

[solo6796]

I'm going for my LSF level III and part of it requires a 1 km. goal and return. This will be a great introduction and primer for XC flights. A few of my club members have volunteered to help in the task, by driving and spotting for me. I plan to do it either with a Houston Hawk, or my 123" Super V. I think the "V" will be the best choice.

AJ

Houston Hawks RC Soaring

[thermalbum]

I did my 1K with a BoT waaay back when - the most difficult part was getting in/out of my buddies van. When I did my level 4 XC task I used a LJMP Meteor and again the most difficult part was getting in and out of the chase vehicle. I didn't use a vario or any other aide - when your stab disappears go for it. Have fun and watch out for bugs in your teeth

[drCarter]

I spotted for one of our club members on the level 4 xc. He used an older Graphite. About the turnaround he had some trouble and was as low as 40'. He hooked a nice thermal and specked out. On the way back he pointed the nose and we were off and running, in a truck that is. We were doing about 35mph.

The best advice I can offer is to have a seasoned spotter to help you find your next ride. It is a ton of fun.

[Mr B....]

XC is fun even with a HLG. I did my Level 3 & 4 XC with my Marauder.

Fly Safe!

Merrill Brady
AMA 276833
LSF 7247
Level V #116

[Halfbrit42]

Balsaaddict...XC flying is a waaaaaay different type of flying. For one thing..ya need a team. Of at least three people, a driver,navigator-co-pilot and you , the pilot. Once ya launch the plane . you fly as high as you can thermal. altitude is distance. And the higher you get..the easier it is to fly. Now the biggie in all of this is...how good is your eyesight? A 100inch or 130 inch wingspan at 2500 ft...gets kinda small..that is one reason why they opt for wings of 14 feet or more..

That is enuff to get ya going...

[Robglover]

You can fly XC with a hand launch, or an Oly, or whatever you have. It will teach you some very valuable skills no matter what you use. As Nike says, just do it.

[trashmanf]

I heard about some guys that XC full scale, they would ride the mountains from like, las vegas to somewhere else (I can't remember) for lunch, then ride the other side of the mountains back, more XC sloping as much as thermalling. that sounds cool!

everyone has crazy ideas they want to do with r/c, I'd like to take up an ultralight and XC fly from the sky... maybe attach the glider on a rack on the plane, then release it and fly along with it.

yeeeaaahhh!

[Thermaler]

I was at the Red HenTurf Farm flying from the west field when my OFB came out and told me that they were heading over with the mower. My Super Esprit was looking like a hand launch and I did not want to stop.
I talked Tiz into packing up my hi start and landing tape for me before he went to the east field. After about twenty minutes I decided to see if I could walk over to the east field and see what was going on. Some of the other guys had shown up and were all having fun. They asked were my plane was. I pointed up and they said cool. They asked were my car was, I told them that the car was at the other field. I then proceeded to walk back. I had to call it quits or the girl would have quit me for being late so I landed when I got back to the west field, almost a hour and a half in the air. I packed up and headed for the east field to say bye.
I checked the mileage, .7 of a mile. I think that covers a Level III LSF requirement.
Anybody want to guess how I am going to get my Goal and Return for Level III?
If I start at the east field and walk west and back to Snowberry Road I think I will make the Level IV Goal and Return, that is about 1.5 one way. Please correct my if I am wrong.
Flying at the Red Hen Turf Farm can't be beat!!!!!! Wide open spaces with corn or beans and grass everywere. A big tin roof, a few house roofs and WIDE OPEN.

Hell's Mutt

[jrerickson]

Hell's Mutt,

You don't want to walk for the anything over 1K. You had a nice thermal day, but they're not always like that. You want to go fast when you are not thermalling. When I did my 10K goal and return, the truck was doing 70 mph and my plane was still in front of me.

There are a lot of things to step into during a long walk when you can't keep your eyes off the plane. At 2,000 feet it does't take but a second to lose sight of your plane.

John

[Thermaler]

I don't think there would be any problems on the first two Goal and Returns. The Red Hen Turf Farm is in the boonies with little traffic and my perifereal <SP?> vision is excellent for a straight shot down the road. Putting one foot in front of the other has never been a problem. The only times I have fallen was with the help of Budwiser or 151.
With the wide open space I would not have to worry about the plane getting to far in front of me as I could do a right to left flight. Yes the crows will laugh at the distance the plane flies but as long as they don't drop any bombs on me...
The Level V 10k might be a different story but since I walk about five miles a day avoiding people and obsticals I don't see a problem with III & IV.
As for the nice thermal day I think a little had to do with skill, I have been at this for over seventeen years now.
My second year at my first contest (At the GDS&HS) one of the best people I know asked why I did not turn into a wiggling wing tip will timing my first flight. I had no answer, he said I had just clipped a thermal with said wing tip and that turning into it to start a search for the center might gain altitude. I have since learned that is what it is all about.
I place first overall in the Novice class that weekend, THANK YOU, Dad.
Came back three months latter and was asked what I was going to do without Dad. I took first hands down and was promtly booted to the next class.
The fields around the sod farm offer excellent thermal activety which does help, but you still have to find them.

Hell's Mutt

[jrerickson]

When you walked the .7 of a mile, you were halfway home. You needed to walk back to where you started to complete your Level 3. The bad news is that it's going to take you awhile to walk the longer distances, but the good news is that you will take care of your 1 or 2 hour thermal duration flight along the way. Good luck!

John

[Thermaler]

The good news is that the .7 mile was from the WEST field to the EAST field.
I flew/walked back to get my car to pack up and head for home. I believe that is a Goal and Return of 1.4 miles.
The trip to Snowberry and back would total about 3 miles.

[rogerflies]

I had a Sagitta XC for a while before I moved to GA. I never felt the need to fly it XC, because it was obvious I could take it anywhere I wanted to on almost any decent day. I opted to sit in the shade after launching, and just work thermals over the field until the batteries got iffy.

Planes that size are a LOT of fun, even without taking them anywhere. You shouldn't let the lack of a team keep you from having at least one.

Roger

[Gliderboy]

DrCarter was slightly incorrect. I completed the Level IV goal and return using my 5+ year old Sapphire CGT with Fred Sage wings. It has a 7037 foil and is 120" span. Winds were light that day and I was flying dry, no ballast. Also, I used no telemetry or assistance other than my senses. One can XC with almost any sailplane.

Walking the tasks is much more difficult than riding. That same day another one of our members went for his Level III task walking. Even though we were spotting for him with radios up the course, when he got low and in trouble we could not easily direct him to the lift we felt near his airplane. Besides DrCarter is right, on the return I had the airplane in front of the truck the whole time and who of you can walk at 35+ MPH?

XC is a blast! I do agree you need a team. A good spotter to help if you get in trouble or loose sight of the airplane and a driver that listens and can drive smoothly. When traveling at speeds greater than 30 MPH getting bounced around doesn't help keeping your eyes on the plane.

[Thermaler]

To you guys that keep saying you can't walk a measley mile and a half or three miles under the conditions I enjoy at the Red Hen Turf Farm, I say WRONG.
I have already done the Level III Goal and Return, 1.4 miles total walking from the west field to the east field and back. To do twice that will be no problem. As for the plane in front of you that is because you were most likely flyng straight line.
I have the luxury of WIDE OPEN SPACE. When I leave from the east field for Level IV, I have a stand of three trees on my right surrounded by sod farm and corn field. After crossing Tamarac I have a house on the right with a few trees around it. I will fly over the sod on the left if needed but I will most likely fly over the house to the tin roof of the sod farm maintenance building.
Past that on the left is another house with a few trees, nothing but sod on the right. Upon arriving at Snowberry there is a house on the left corner which recently cut down all the trees around it. Traffic is rare and seen for a great distance.
Now mind you I am 47 years old and have been walking for most of them. If I can't put one foot in front of the other while watching a Super Esprit, Legion Air 140, MAgnum 12 or hopefully one of my designs the TRAXL (154", 12" chord) or TRAXXL (174", 12" chord) I had better get down to the funeraal home because the guest of honor is missing.
I understand that some XC flying is about covering as much distance as possible and that a truck and crew is the way to go. If I were to compete is such a contest of course that would be SOP.
My goal is the simple requiremnet of LSF Level's III & IV. If you really look at the requirements you don't really have any problems or troubles until you get to Level V which seems to me to be a final test of what you have learned in Level's I - IV.
Just my opinion. Just my knowledge of my limitations, abilities and confidence.

[balsaaddict]

Very interesting comments and suggestions on the thread. I am fortunate to be able to fly at lunch time at work from a field that contains 3+ full size soccer fields. In the same park another set of 4 soccer fields can be found about 3/4 of a mile away. I have been away from the sailplane part of the hobby long enough to have forgotten about the LSF tasks.
My goal this coming spring and summer is to launch a Majestic from the first area mentioned and then fly to the second. Walking would be a possibility, but I could get a ride in a friend's pickup. The only hazard for me is that the roadway between the two fields is fairly narrow and there are woods surrounding the area. Lift seems good, but I have not flown much out of the fields for a long time (15 years now). HLG freeflight I have lost and an electric Playboy and a couple of 2 meters thermalled, but not really well.
I think I could easily abort, either returning to the launch area or landing in the other fields. Any idea of the L/D for the Majestic in still air? Could I fly 1/2 mile from 500' for example?

[rogerflies]

"Could I fly 1/2 mile from 500' for example?"

With 500' you should have at least three minutes of air time in dead air. At 20MPH, you would go a mile in three minutes. Sounds reasonable to me.

Roger

[Gliderboy]

Thermaler, chill buddy. I had no intentions of implying you can't walk. I too have been walking for most of my 54 years! My intent was to say that if you want to cover ground and have the best chance of completing the course, you need to be able to travel with the airplane. Even though my CGT is a slow 7037 TD ship it can still fly out of sight in a straight line even if I am RUNNING, not walking, after it. My Eraser and Stratos are even faster, so a vehicle is required to keep up if you really want to make the best of your altitude, speed through sink is life.

Yes, the Level III and IV can be done walking. I also did my Level III with out using a vehicle. But, the concept of the LSF program is to build on prior levels. The idea is to use what you learned at a lower level to make the next level a natural progression. Forming a team and learning how to coordinate the ingress/egress of the team while flying is something that needs to be learned. Also, as DrCarter stated I got in trouble just before the turn point, almost 2 kilometers from the start point. Had I not been very close to the airplane Dr and I would probably not sensed the thermal that saved my attempt. On that day, since I can't walk or run at over 35 MPH I don't think I would have been as close to the airplane had I not been traveling in a truck along with it.

[steelhead]

So? Any new Level III and IV's?

Dean

[OVSS Boss]

For all you guys walking an XC task, I would recommend that you wear some sort of visibility enhancing vest or such. Lime green meets ANSI specs. I sell these things for a living. It is not that you cannot walk a task, but can you live through the experience. I work with the electric utility industry, and more guys are injured by vehicles than by direct contact electric accidents. Knowing what I know about the subject, I would not walk down most country roads trying to fly for nothing. You are not paying attention to the most immediate danger and the drivers sure as the devil are not particularly paying attention for you. If you are at the AMA facility, great place to do it, but I would really second thought doing it on most country roads.

Marc

[mmartin55]

I've been thinking about kitting a scale XC ship that would be competitive, inexpensive, robust, and easy to build, assemble and transport. Any interest or comments?

Tom

[tw126a]

Tom, you said all the magic words in one sentence. I'm tuned for more details..

Tom

[mmartin55]

Well Tom it's not an simple task deciding which scale ship will lend itself best to the cross country tasks. Initially I though of the Schreder sailplanes but their aspects are too high to best match chord and loading as the sport is now played. The nice thing about them was their camber changing full-span flaperons!

So that leaves the Scweizer 1-34 or 1-36 among others.

I am still looking at other makes and models, then I have to determine which airfoil and how to justify any deviations from scale to incorporate the kind of flying qualities and features that you would want in a cross country ship.

Tom

[tw126a]

The HP-14 had a lower aspect ratio wing then most of the competition, started life as a V-tail but was also built with a conventional as well as a T-tail. Also the Cirrus and Diamants from the 60's had much lower aspect ratio's then the new modern sailplanes.
What kind of span were you considering?
Tom

[mmartin55]

Tom,

All of the Schreders after the 1950s were in excess of 20:1 aspect http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/schred.htm

...the Open Cirrus 25 http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=60

....and Diamant at 23:1 http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/PlaneDetails.cfm?planeID=85

Not to sound capricious, but I want to model a U.S. vintage or classic sailplane in keeping with my existing business model. I also want to develop this in a scale that appeals to many from a commercial standpoint, so we can sell many copies for both cross country, alpine and aerotow/thermal tasks. Quarter scale of a 15 meter full size ship yields a 3.75 meter span and 3.5 scale is close to the span of successful non-scale XC ships. The root chord of the 1-34 (smaller frontal area, longer tail moment) and the 1-36 (larger frontal area, shorter tail moment) are about 12" at 1:4 scale and closer to 14" at 1:3.5 scale. The 1-34 has more tail area in both the vertical and horizontal as well.

SGS 1-34 1:4 scale Specs
Span: 147.5" (3.75m)
Aspect: 15:1
Root chord 12.3"
Tip chord 5.5"
Area: 1278 in. sq.

SGS 1-36 1:4 scale Specs
Span: 138.5" (3.5m)
Aspect: 15:1
Root chord 12.3"
Tip chord 5.5"
Area: 1200 in. sq.

Hitting an all up target weight of 10 lbs. is not an issue regardless of building materials.

Tom

[tw126a]

My vote would go to the 1-34, I've always liked the looks of it. After the Schweizers and Schreders, there are not many that were built in quantity in the US. The RJ-5 and Sisu had high aspect ratio wings too. A couple more that might be more suitable are the LK-10 and the Concept 70. Just some ideas.
Tom

[mmartin55]

Tom,

Yeah, I looked at the Laister LP-15 Nugget too. I really like that one and Jack Laister indicated he would share documentation with me as well if I was interested in modeling it: http://www.sailplanedirectory.com/laister.htm.

I will still look at the Schreder designs. I think they have promise too at 3.5 scale in order to get enough area and chord for visibility.

Tom

[rdwoebke]

I plan to do it either with a Houston Hawk, or my 123" Super V. I think the "V" will be the best choice.



AJ,

Super V is a full house ship, right? How much dihedral does it have? When flying XC, having a stable plane can be a huge benefit. The 1K should be just fine for your hawk. I did mine with my Paragon.

Ryan

[rdwoebke]

The idea of trying some cross country sailplane flying has always been a desire of mine. I do not have the money to invest in an all out XC machine. I was wondering if others have tried it with different kinds of models.

Addict,

I say go for it! I have been trying the 2K goal and return for about 3 seasons now with my Paragon. I have not made it all the way back yet, but then I'm a crappy pilot! :-) I have made it all the way out 5 times and half way back twice. Here are some thoughts for you.

First, if you have a GPS or a friend that has one, that is realy handy for figuring out XC courses. Else the "google maps" type stuff can work too, but I have a hand held unit that I use for helping find model rockets and I generaly mark my launch point, then drive the country roads a bit, looking for viable courses and the GPS tells me the straight line distance back to the launch point.

To start, drive the course and make mental notes of possible land out areas. The road can be a good land out area as well. Also make not of any high tension power lines and note trees that might block your vision of the plane.

When you are flying the XC, it is helpful to be as high as possible before you start off. I usually get too antsy and start on course before I should. Don't do as I do here! Get speck high first, as that gives you lots of altitude to work with and the thermals tend to be bigger up there.

Experement with ballast. It lets you cover more ground and more effectivly buck a head wind.

Then

[cliffo]

I owned Open Cirrus #5. That would be a great simple scale ship. Straight wings, straight dihedral heavy but performed good.

[daveosoar]

I wish we had you wide open spaces! Here, in the UK it is illegal to sit in the back of a pick-up. In a rag top you must be belted in. Most roads are tarmac but two-way and we have TREES. Virtually every highway is bordered by 60ft plus oaks/sycamores and pines. If not there are the hedges, dense cattle proof hawthorn etc., Vision is very limited. We run/walk with a spotter over the hilltops doing a triangular course, in and out of lift, on a good day I might manage 2 miles (the plane does much more) but its a young man's game! I'm sure that if a policeman (cop) saw me sitting in the back of a car with an upraised TX antenna, and issuing instructions to the driver, we'd be pulled over, checked for drink, and put inside in case we were nuts, or terrorists about to blow a bomb.
Still, its a free country.

[cliffo]

Sorry to hear that Dave. If you guys wouldnt have forced that tea on us we would be speaking Queen's English and Starbucks would be something else. You would be over here in W. Texas enjoying 5 knot thermals throughout the year and teaching at Sul Ross Univ. in Marfa, TX.

Flying sailplanes in W. Texas is like sex. It is never bad.

Cliff

[daveosoar]

Cliffo,
At least we won WW2 together! AND I did my bit! At 8 years old the local lads used to go to the forward flying base near home on the South Coast of the UK just prior to D-Day and were allowed to pump gas from 50 gallon drums into the P47s using rotary pumps - and we got gum! BTW the first thing I went to 'sea' in was a cut down belly tank as a canoe!! What is Starbucks??? also there is another unfamiliar name - McD??
Dave.

[big jer]

Tom
I have always favored the Woodstock as the Ideal scale TD model. It can be
built from 2 different wings of about 12 and 14 aspect ratio. All wood with a
fixed wheel. I'll supply 3 views from the kit seller if you are interested. Jim Maupin
(plans seller) has passed away and I dont think plans are offered for sale any more .
JDK