What's on your workbench? [Archive]

Jim_Marconnet

Nov 24, 2005, 11:16 AM

Slow Stick with brushless outrunner and LiPo pack. Waiting impatiently for the Spektrum DX6 system ( http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1535 ) , now supposedly available mid-December instead of late November. Hate to see so much good flying weather pass me by twiddling my thumbs!

Thought about trying to re-plane the electronics and motor from the HZ FB Commander II that I broke the tail boom Wednesday. But seeing this as a lot of work and some $$ for little return - seems there are few good-flying 2-channel planes around. And I had problems with this electronics the last 3 times I flew it. But I'm open to suggestion. My son Scott suggested I fly it into the trash can :p

Jim

ghee-grose

Nov 24, 2005, 11:38 AM

Why are you waiting on THAT radio? What does it have that others don't? If that was what was holding me up from flying, I would take another route. :)

Jim_Marconnet

Nov 24, 2005, 01:11 PM

Why are you waiting on THAT radio? What does it have that others don't? If that was what was holding me up from flying, I would take another route. :)

Gary, if you know something specific about this new system that deserves consideration, please do share it with us all.

You ask Why? I'm looking to say goodbye to:
frequency pins;
getting shot-down, or shooting someone else down.
"noise" coming from my motor or speed control (or anywhere else on my model) affecting my radio's performance;
glitches;
and intermodulation issues like 2IM, 3IM and adjacent frequency.

This is a a redundant fully digital system - in multiple ways - frequency, path and time.

I think this is worth the wait at the $200 price for a 6-channel computer radio with 4 digital servos and 10 model memory. YMMV!

Again, their link if you want more specific info: http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1535&Page=1

I talked to Rick at R/C hobbies about these, and he thinks they are the next great direction in radios. He got to share some of his ideas and suggestions in the development, as I undersand it.

But I still want my instant gratification NOW! :)
Jim

Tram

Nov 24, 2005, 01:29 PM

I'd say get one of these or something like it and be done with it.. http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKAJ2**&P=ML

I've been flying for about 15 years and have only been shot down once.. and I'm not 100% I got shot down..

ghee-grose

Nov 24, 2005, 02:02 PM

Does it come with a receiver that can change frequency or do you have to buy crystals to match?

Jim_Marconnet

Nov 24, 2005, 03:56 PM

Does it come with a receiver that can change frequency or do you have to buy crystals to match?

The simple answer is that it's all automatic, nothing else to buy or to do.

The longer answer from their web site, pieced together and edited down a little:

Just turn your transmitter on - in an instant the output light comes on. Then you turn on your model. In an instant you have a direct, solid, secure link. There's nothing to fiddle with.

When you turn on your DX6 transmitter, it scans the 2.4GHz band and picks two frequencies which show the least activity. That's right, there two frequencies used with the DX6 system.

With DuaLink, the transmitter randomly selects two frequencies from the band, and transmits the same information on both simultaneously. The AR6000 receiver actually contains two complete receivers with individual antennas. Since the receiver is mobile, the path (a technical term for the relationship between the position of the transmitter antenna relative to the receiving antenna) is constantly changing. Even if one path (or frequency, for that matter) is lost for one frame instant, the other will be perfectly connected to the transmitter. So it is truly a redundant system - in multiple ways - frequency, path and time.

Because there are two antennas with different positions, if in the unlikely event a frame is dropped (loss of sgnal for more than 15ms), the other receiver is already on-line. Result: No interruption in signal. No dropouts. No problems. Just a strong, solid link. That's what DSM DuaLink is all about.

Shorter-yet-answer (found in their FAQ!) ----- It's magic!

jim

Tram

Nov 24, 2005, 05:23 PM

What does a new RX cost each time you want to buy one?

*EDIT* $60 bucks.. Weighs in at 7grams.. Not bad.. :)

ghee-grose

Nov 24, 2005, 09:19 PM

Well with that information I can see why you're waiting on that radio. Sounds like a glitch-free environment with that one.

Mars Flyer

Nov 24, 2005, 09:39 PM

I'll chime in on the DX6 because I've been reading about them as well. For $200 for xmtr, rcvr, and 4 servos this is a good deal even without the cool spread spectrum stuff. The rcvr cost is the same as a decent dual conversion 72 MHz unit. That is a full-featured xmtr with 10 model memories and all the mixing and programmability you would expect. It should start a revolution in radios. I'm betting the other manufacturers will follow soon - or be lost in the dust.

Rob

dee-grose

Nov 24, 2005, 11:22 PM

...maybe this should really be in the chit-chat thread, but I'll join in :rolleyes:

There just so happens to be a review of the DX6 system on rcgroups. See here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/links/index.php?id=4936

Ultralight

Nov 24, 2005, 11:57 PM

Wow! It sounds like the perfect set up for a parkflyer. Let us know how it works out Jim.

Jason

nuevo

Nov 25, 2005, 12:01 AM

The radio is Spread Spectrum. It doesn't use "one" frequency, but hops among a pre-defined set of frequencies according to a pseudo-random code. The "code" is the channel, and multiple radios can be transmitting at the same time. The TX stays on one exact frequency a small fraction of a second and then hops to the next frequency. The receiver (binding they call it), knows the same code and they move in lock step. Another TX/RX pair will use a different hopping code, and the radios will rarely "step on" each other. There is enough redundancy in the data sent that these minor "collisions" are not a problem.

Their frequency is 2.4Ghz as opposed to our 72Mhz, so they won't interfere with "normal" radios.

Only time I could see a problem is if 20 or more of the TX's were all on at the same time, or there was outright interference in the 2.4Ghz band. What else is on the 2.4Ghz band? Wireless networking (http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=6), microwave ovens, and some cordless phones (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007Q3QOO/sr=1-23/qid=1132894609/ref=sr_1_23/103-2064710-7444645?%5Fencoding=UTF8).

Jim, Yes these radios are the future, but don't believe that your receiver is totally immuned to interference or noice from the ESC. Noise is noise, and it degrades the signal. I used to work at a radio company that did this stuff. In the case of your radio, the noise is way outside the 2.4Ghz frequency of the receiver, but the noise is physically right next to the receiver too. This "close" noise can swamp the automatic gain control (AGC) circuitry in the receiver. An crude analogy would be you trying to listen to a conversation 1000 feet away, while standing next to a jet airplane with the motor running.

I'm sure enough testing has gone into these radios. Horizon/JR are one of the best brands around, as far as I'm concerned. I am excited that RC is finally getting into spread spectrum. These radios are the first wave, I'm sure.

Jim_Marconnet

Nov 25, 2005, 01:32 AM

The radio is Spread Spectrum. It doesn't use "one" frequency, but hops among a pre-defined set of frequencies according to a pseudo-random code......

Actually from one of their reviews at: http://www.horizonhobby.com/Explore/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1535&Page=1

DSM USES DIRECT SEQUENCE SPREAD SPECTRUM

You've probably heard of the familiar form of Spread Spectrum called "Frequency Hopping." This form uses a system that has the signal transmitting on one of the 80 available frequencies for just a few milliseconds, then hopping to another channel, and so forth. This is all done randomly and so fast that it won't' affect other "hopping" systems, nor direct sequence.

Our system, over five years in development, started out using a frequency hopping system. But the limitations of this format in regards to robustness of the link and slow speed sent our designers into the Direct Sequence side. Whereas frequency hopping is "old technology," the newer Direct Sequencing offers a much more robust RF link, faster speeds - yet it is exponentially more difficult to program. And it's the programming where all the magic is. Understanding what to do with hardware is the "secret" to DSM Spread Spectrum technology.

nuevo

Nov 25, 2005, 10:45 AM

Thanks for the correction Jim. I'm excited to see the system in action.

Mars Flyer

Nov 25, 2005, 12:14 PM

The DX6 is certainly interesting technology. Seems that "spread spectrum" is more hype than truth. Being an anal retentive spaceship designer I see one possible failure mode already. Suppose these radios get very popular and there is a guy down the street flying with one too. With 80 channels taken 2 at a time there is a 1 in 40 chance that his system will pick one of the frequencies that yours does. Since he is some distance away the trees and houses block the signals when you are on the ground and frequency selection is being made. Once in the air your plane has a line of sight to his transmitter and one of your links gets clobbered. Maybe the other will be OK, maybe not. There seems to be some link margin issue being addressed with the 2 channels already. Maybe multipath? Same problem could occur with interference from a cordless phone or wireless network. Channel selection is done on the ground and airborne exposure to interfering signals may not be detected. Too bad it isn't true frequency hopping. This would reduce the chance for such problems dramatically. Although, lots of transmitters frequency hopping simply increases the noise level which isn't good either.

I couldn't find the DX6 in a quick look through the latest issue of the Horizon catalog. It was in there big time in the previous issue. I'm not sure what that means.

None of this discussion probably belongs in a build thread but it sure is fun.

Rob

Jim_Marconnet

Nov 25, 2005, 07:08 PM

I couldn't find the DX6 in a quick look through the latest issue of the Horizon catalog. It was in there big time in the previous issue. I'm not sure what that means.Rob

I've not seen their printed catalog. On their web site, searching for DX6 it shows up http://www.horizonhobby.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=dx6&OverallCatID=

It shows as "Due mid-December". Earlier this month it was "Due late-November". Apparently it's coming..... but so is Christmas!

Edit--> Sorry Gang! -- Getting frustrated - time to chill! Jim

Miderror

Nov 26, 2005, 10:11 AM

I'm building 2 Supras (134" span glider) this winter. Looks like this photo.

http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/supra/images/IMG_8920.jpg

I started a build thread. Follow along if you like. I tell you, those Supras are keeping me off the street. ;) It will take me a few more months :eek: just to finish the Supras.

Supra build thread (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437733)

Also have an Olympic 2 kit, and bought the Overlord foamie kit from Todd.

Somehow I'm supposed to finish all of these kits this winter. :rolleyes:

I'm following your thread Jon. Very nice.

Fyrwalker

Nov 27, 2005, 10:49 PM

Evening ya'll,
hope everone had a great holiday. here's what i'm working on.
sweet stick 40 a friend gave me last year, he started it in 1984.
i modified the wing with two servo mounts instead of the one servo and bell cranks,made it into a taildragger. hope to have it done soon, i'll post some pic. later.

Moonbeam Six

Nov 28, 2005, 10:46 PM

Since I am still diddling with my Mini Diddle MAX, I guess it would be correct to include it as being on my workbench. I also have the parts (or at least most of them) cut out for a Diddle Champ. BTW, watch the printer settings when printing out plans in .pdf format or you will get the wrong scale. I also have a Great Planes Escapade foamy thing that has been dormant for the last couple of months. It is at least 90% complete. Plane still in the box, on paper, or in my head don't count as being "on the workbench," so I won't mention them.

Frank

nuevo

Nov 28, 2005, 10:52 PM

What's a Mini Diddle Max and a Diddle Champ? I looked around & couldn't come up with anything.

Mars Flyer

Nov 28, 2005, 10:57 PM

Here are the bones for my Gym Swallow v-tail project. I next have to cut the stab in half and set the 110 degree vee. Then I'll cut the "elevator" portion and trim so I can get both up without bumping together. Next will be the arrow shaft fuse and its pylons and servo mounts. Slow but sure progress...

I'm also trying to hack the snap connections off an 8 cell battery box so I can put some decent batteries in the Optic 6. WARNING to Optic 6 users: even if this works I understand from the Hitec forum that the battery use counter only goes to 199 minutes and then rolls over to 0. Not a major deal but another minor aggravation. I'd be happy to get enough battery capacity to encounter that problem. 80-90 minutes the absolute best I can get on the stock NiCd pack.

Rob

ghee-grose

Nov 28, 2005, 11:12 PM

Rob, I used a dremel tool and ground the posts down on mine. Then I soldered the leads to it. It's a booger to get it plugged in with that big pack though.

Mars Flyer

Nov 28, 2005, 11:20 PM

Gary,

You are way ahead of me. I was just reaching for my Dremel to get the small contact down. The other was easy to remove. Maybe the end result will be worth the trouble. I couldn't find a pack with wires on the internet.

Rob

Moonbeam Six

Nov 28, 2005, 11:33 PM

Jon,

I've been spending a considerable amount of time lately on the RC Groups "DiddleBugs Scale Style" thread. It is easy to get bitten by the Diddle bug. Go to http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415493&page=44&pp=15 and check out the ingenuity of those guys. My post with pictures of my Mini Diddle MAX is on page 44. Find the Diddle Champ on page 29 along with .pdf plans. But don't overlook page one so you can see how all this got started. A bit of a warning may be in order. Once you start reading this thread, it is hard to stop.

Frank

nuevo

Nov 28, 2005, 11:35 PM

I guess it's too late, but Radio shack sells connectors like these. I have extras, if you want any.

nuevo

Nov 28, 2005, 11:36 PM

Frank,

Thanks for the details and the link. I'll be reading. Beautiful Mini Diddle MAX. Wow!

Jon

ghee-grose

Nov 28, 2005, 11:37 PM

Beware Rob! When the friction warms things up, the plastic starts to melt. Make sure you position them right, before the plastic sets.

dee-grose

Nov 28, 2005, 11:39 PM

Rob, I'm no aeronautical engineer, but I do remember reading something about v-tails in a magazine a while back. There is some complicated ratio to getting the right tail surface area from just two surfaces as opposed to three. It looks like your new stab is just a copy of the original horizontal stab that you plan to cut in half. It might be too small. Granted on little bitty models like this, it probably doesn't make much of a difference...just thought I'd put the bug in your ear. ;)

afterthought: (rusty gears turning a little more) I think it had something to do with "projections" of the conventional tail surfaces to make the new v-tail surfaces. OK, I'll quit before I hurt myself.

dee-grose

Nov 28, 2005, 11:42 PM

Jon, I think the issue is that there isn't room for such a connector on the end of the little battery holder. I haven't tried it, but I think that is what Gary said.

Mars Flyer

Nov 28, 2005, 11:50 PM

Andy,

The v-tail is not an exact copy. I scaled it up so the total surface area is the same as the stock tail feathers - about a factor of 1.3 scale factor. I'm sure there is a fancy equation somewhere but I think this will be pretty close. The Swallow is extremely stable and seems pretty forgiving. Frank and I have fiddled the wing design pretty significantly and they still fly.

The proof is in the flyin'. We'll see how she does.

Rob

Mars Flyer

Nov 28, 2005, 11:52 PM

Jon, I think the issue is that there isn't room for such a connector on the end of the little battery holder. I haven't tried it, but I think that is what Gary said.

Right. The battery compartment is smaller on the Optic. Probably so you'll have to buy the Hitec battery upgrade :D The Flash radios take the Radio Shack box perfectly but not the Optic.

nuevo

Nov 28, 2005, 11:57 PM

Thanks for the battery clarification. Sorry about that.

About the v-tail sizing, here's an article my Mark Drela, and aero prof at MIT. The article assumes you have a conventional tail you want to convert to an equivalent v-tail.

Quick V-Tail Sizing (http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/design/markdrela_vtailsizing.htm)

Moonbeam Six

Nov 28, 2005, 11:58 PM

Jon,

Thanks. There are some good build reports, flight reports, and great pictures posted. They are a cheap, simple, relatively quick and easy build. Flight is confined areas is easier with a small plane.

Frank

Mars Flyer

Nov 29, 2005, 09:20 AM

Jon,

Thanks for the link. I guess my instincts were correct since

" A_vtail = A_vertical + A_horizontal "

is exactly what I used. No rocket science in that ;)

I even checked to make sure that the control surface areas added up to the same.

I'll have to check the relative areas of the tail feathers to calculate the angle. I have already glued up the canonical 110 degree angle but it will be interesting to see how close this comes.

" angle = arctan[ sqrt( A_vertical / A_horizontal ) ] "

Thanks again.

Rob

nuevo

Nov 29, 2005, 10:10 AM

Frank,

Can these Diddle planes be landed at places like NG or the tall grass where I've seen you guys fly? Do they require a parking lot to land?

Jon

atjurhs

Nov 29, 2005, 01:55 PM

Here's a pic of someone else's WildThing Mini-Wing.

I plan to strip the electronics out of my SimAir Mini-Wing after her first and final voyage tomorrow morning and drop them in one of these.

The plans for the WildThing Mini-Wing are free on the web and can be found at
http://www.azchuckrc.net/wingthig.html

Of course I will make mods to the original plans :D

I think Dave plans to build/revive his too. Perhaps we (the Alabama Rocket City Renegades) could get a flock of them built.... They have the advantage of being solid performers at a low cost!

Mars Flyer

Nov 29, 2005, 09:28 PM

Todd,

Betcha can't bounce that balsa beauty off the quarry wall without damage. It must be really light weight.

Rob

Jim_Marconnet

Nov 29, 2005, 10:44 PM

Here's a pic of someone else's WildThing Mini-Wing......

Just curious of any reasons you know of why you choose this one over what you were building?

Yes, I know, we decide what we want or what we will do first and then develop a rationalle for our already-made decision.

GLIDERGIDER

Nov 29, 2005, 11:30 PM

Here's a pic of someone else's WildThing Mini-Wing.

I think Dave plans to build/revive his too. Perhaps we (the Alabama Rocket City Renegades) could get a flock of them built.... They have the advantage of being solid performers at a low cost!

Todd,
Your enthusiam to build a little flying wing has rekindled the excitement of my first flying wing. My daughter and I both built identical WingThings. She eventually decided to pursue sports and boys, while I stuck with the flying.

Here is a webpage showing my daughter and I on the maiden flight.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cousins23/wingthing/

Those are very fond memories. This plane has a decent power to weight ratio, and that was with the old style batteries. I can't wait to see the improvement when using Lipo batteries.

Dave

Tram

Nov 30, 2005, 01:17 AM

As I type this - I have a Goldberg Chipmunk on one table and a Funder v2.01 on the other.. One has glue drying, the other has paint drying... :D

rocketdude821

Nov 30, 2005, 09:11 PM

On my workbench, I have a Mini Telemaster that I have finally finished up and is flight ready with maiden flight set for this Sunday, weather pending at RCRC and Saturday as a backup date somewhere with a big open field and room to take off from. I have a Magnum .15 on it and it came out at 1lb 14 oz without fuel, so should be 2lbs on the dot with fuel. Not too bad. I should be getting my Great Planes Spirit kit later this week and will start on it soon so I can fly with the guys at NASF. Harold will be coaching me through it and help me strengthen it so it can take winch launches. I hope to have pics of it in a few days so I will post as soon as possible. For future projects, I have a LT-40 kit I am asking for Christmas to get the feel of ailerons again and to have a fun plane to fly in windier weather. After that I will be building a Pronto Supreme, a classic low wing that was reviewed in the January issue of Model Airplane News. Well that's all for now. See you guys around!

atjurhs

Dec 01, 2005, 10:21 AM

On my workbench, not, she just wouldn't fit...

But here's Grace on the living room floor and on my "newly developed highly precise balancing stand" :D Hey it worked :p Credit for the idea really goes to Jon and Dave.

atjurhs

Dec 01, 2005, 10:30 AM

This one fits on a 1/4 size workbench...

After yesterday's flight, my hopes for her have been renewed :)

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 01, 2005, 08:30 PM

I mentioned earlier that I had most of the stuff bought for a brushless SS with LiPo, just awaiting impatiently the Spektrum DX6 radio everyone has heard about but few have actually in their hands. Mid December is the latest prediction they make. And their big colorful ads are supposedly in all the model plane magazines right now.

Afterwards I bought Ken Fidler's SS with a stock motor and vintage ESC for a spare wing and/or something stock to learn to fly on, rather than risk the good brushless and LiPo. He flew it for many years, but it still looks brand new to me. I'm told that is a good indication of a really really good pilot.

I was waiting for R/C Hobbies Grand Opening Fri/Sat/Sun to try to buy a conventional radio to use in the meantime.

Last night I saw a used SS combo for sale on-line and decided to take a "flyer" on it. You pays your money, you takes your chances! The check's in the mail, as they say. This one even has a GWS transmitter, Rx, and 2 servos. Hopefully they will all actually work together. Also getting a stock motor, ESC, and two NiMh batteries and a charger. Not exciting like brushless and LiPos, but probably more practical for learning. Hopefully in a week or so I'll have one (stock) SS ready to fly and then in another few weeks, a second (FirstClassNotSoSS) ready.

I'm really looking forward to having something 3-channel, slower, and hopefully easier to fly and less realestate intensive than the two Challenger II RTFs that Scott and I've pretty much reduced to rubble with mud and grasss tribal decorations. They have, of course, served their purpose - to test the waters, meet the locals, find some good flying sites, and be a big step towards really being able to fly and then doing so with something that there is local support for, more capable, even if less sturdy.

A thought, with all the SSs around, perhaps we could hold a SS-athalon or something. Perhaps make it open to any plane, but you must use the same plane in all events. Possibly do it one event at a time over several different flying sessions (or perhaps several events at each of several flying sessions) for points towards an overall champion:
Perhaps a bomb drop for accuracy.
Perhaps a pylon race.
Perhaps precision landing (nah! too easy for some! - perhaps do it blindfolded or land behind a screen with a second pilot to call out landing instructions!).
Perhaps fly limbo under crepe paper streamers held up by bamboo poles.
Perhaps multiple touch-&-gos in a specified time period.
Perhaps combat with streamers - no way I'm going to risk flying to the death like the slopers do!
Perhaps weight-lifting - how much removeable lead can you keep in the air for 5 minutes?
Perhaps add up your points from the best x out of Y events since few could come to all events.
It's something to think about for winter building and then for the spring flying.

GLIDERGIDER

Dec 01, 2005, 10:37 PM

On my workbench, not, she just wouldn't fit...
But here's Grace on the living room floor

She's beautiful!!! Looking forward to your maiden flight.

Mars Flyer

Dec 01, 2005, 11:26 PM

Jim,

I think going with the stock SS for starters is a great move. You'll be more comfortable flying a smaller investment and with the more benign performance. Having an extra transmitter never hurts either.

You'll be in the air soon!

We've had a few Slow Stick Squadron flyovers in the past. It is a hoot to see a flock of those things together. The fun fly sounds like - fun.

Rob

nuevo

Dec 01, 2005, 11:59 PM

Jim,

Great news on the new plane & radio. I think this is a good move.

I was waiting for R/C Hobbies Grand Opening Fri/Sat/Sun
Uggh. I missed it. :confused:

GLIDERGIDER

Dec 02, 2005, 12:21 AM

Jim,

We've had a few Slow Stick Squadron flyovers in the past. It is a hoot to see a flock of those things together. The fun fly sounds like - fun.

Rob

Let me know when we plan to have a SS squadron flyover. I'm in. I'll get my camera back and do some air-to-air photos.
Dave

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 02, 2005, 01:27 AM

Uggh. I missed it. :confused:

Nope: It's Today, Tomorrow, and Sunday!

I don't have any idea what specials they will have. I talked to Rick earlier in the week, and he had not decided on anything specific at that time.

Tram

Dec 02, 2005, 03:59 AM

Ahh.. just got done with the Chippy.. Should fly tomorrow.. Hmm.. what can I throw on the table next.. :D

nuevo

Dec 02, 2005, 09:08 AM

Thanks Jim. I think I can arrange a visit. :D

GLIDERGIDER

Dec 02, 2005, 09:24 AM

Ahh.. just got done with the Chippy.. Should fly tomorrow.. Hmm.. what can I throw on the table next.. :D
Tram,
What does your Chippy look like? Pictures please.
Dave

Tram

Dec 03, 2005, 03:52 AM

This is not mine, but mine looks just like it, only the stickers are in slightly different places.. :)

Very nice ARF for 90 bucks.. Flies alot like it's big brother..

Moonbeam Six

Dec 03, 2005, 08:37 AM

After visiting the R/C Hobbies' Grand Opening yesterday, I'll now have to add a GWS PT-17 Stearman to my "to be built" list. I just couldn't resist a 58% markdown.

While technically not "on my workbench," it joins a few others in the box in a holding pattern awaiting approach and landing clearance to the workbench. That is a good thing. Dreams do not diminish while the plane is still in the box.

Bargains still await. The Grand Opening continues 3 and 4 December.

Frank

Tram

Dec 03, 2005, 07:52 PM

Oh man, if we count the kits "lying in wait" my workbenches would probably buckle.. :) I've got 6 kits in the room I am in now..

I think I am more of a collector.. :D

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 04, 2005, 11:25 PM

Well, my workbench is now more of a storage area for SS parts with two ARF planes from Rick's with removeable reusable 4-channel radios wrapped and locked up till Christmas AM.

I have a used SS with some radio gear "on order", but no idea when the check will clear and that will come in. So guess it's time for a "vacation" from R/C till Christmas or thereabouts. Probably a good idea for several reasons.

The Spektrum DX6 I had planned to get whenever they come in (now predicted as Late-December!) will just have to wait till next year, if then. Someone else will get to be the local first-tester. But this way I am open to any "deals" I run into on the proven soon to be "obsolete" radios!

Everyone here has been so nice to me, not to mention patient. I really appreciate it! Hiatus Time! :)

Moonbeam Six

Dec 05, 2005, 12:21 AM

With any luck, I should clear my workbench of a Great Planes Escapade within a couple of days. I tried to get it finished this evening, but the final step (getting the wing washout right and equal) is a critical step that should not be rushed or tackled when it is bedtime. Once that step is completed, the rest will go quickly. Basically, installing the wheels and putting the receiver and ESC back in, is all that remains.

Frank

dee-grose

Dec 05, 2005, 01:14 AM

Here's what's on my workbench right now...a Steelhead Eureka slope glider. I'll be doing up a full build thread once I finish and can post it all in one lump sum. I've only worked on it one evening and I think I'm about halfway done. This should be a fun sloper!

Jim_W

Dec 05, 2005, 06:39 AM

http://www.nehp.net/~jimw/Mini%20Sportster/

ghee-grose

Dec 05, 2005, 09:51 AM

That Sportster is gonna be a neat little plane!

Go brushless with it and you won't be sorry, I'm sure.

SU Jags

Dec 05, 2005, 09:57 PM

This is what I'm working on, I know the color scheme is pretty lame but I think it's ok for my first try. I still need to cover the winglets and elevons. Hope to have it done by the weekend so I can see how bouncy this EPP stuff is.

GLIDERGIDER

Dec 05, 2005, 10:33 PM

SU Jag
Nice wing. I hate the tape too, but your design looks fine. What is the motor and battery?
Dave

SU Jags

Dec 05, 2005, 10:47 PM

Dave

I'm not even sure if I will like wings, so I'm using a sp400 and 8 AAs. If I want something faster, I will probably get a Stryker or Bird Of Prey.

GLIDERGIDER

Dec 06, 2005, 12:41 AM

Dave
I'm not even sure if I will like wings, so I'm using a sp400 and 8 AAs. If I want something faster, I will probably get a Stryker or Bird Of Prey.
Wings are great, and EPP is way better then EPS (stryker). If you want something faster, try a Lipo battery. The reduced weight will provide a speed increase and give you longer flights. Maybe Don Miller will bust in here and give us some insights into that sentence. A crash of the Stryker will result in a broken nose while your wing will have no damage. I'm getting a Stryker tomorrow but I don't plan to motorize it anytime soon. I plan to fly it on the slope so I can beatup on the Gross boys. :)

dee-grose

Dec 06, 2005, 01:16 AM

Bring it on, Mr. Cousins! :D We're ready! Bring that JW too... Ya know, I think the only reason Jon's plane didn't last long is because your JW was out for blood after my Weasel put the smack-down on it the previous weekend. :cool:

Regarding the Stryker, it is not EPS, but a different foam that Parkzone calls Z-foam or something like that. Seems very similar to the Multiplex Elapor stuff. Much more durable than EPS.

And crashing a Stryker...have you watched the last clip in my video? I whacked it nose-first into the edge of the cliff it just bounced right back into the air. I think Gary's broken nose was a fluke. Could be wrong though...I might have just been lucky.

Speaking of building wings, I picked up a cheap Wattage Hyper Wing 400 kit from Rick's sale last week. It looks very similar to SUJags' wing. In trying to keep up with the latest rage, I'm planning on putting a single, center-mounted fin instead of the wingtip fins. May also cut a little off the center section so I don't have as much sweep to the wings. For $10, I figure it can be a cheap experiment.

SUJags, if you're gonna get a Stryker, Rick has one coming to him this week. He got three last week, but one was damaged. He was gonna return it for a replacment. I was going to buy it as a spare, but think I'll wait a while ;-)

Andy

SU Jags

Dec 06, 2005, 12:15 PM

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 06, 2005, 11:09 PM

Not sure I can honestly say this is on my workbench, but at least I have a concept of what to do with the remains of my Commander II. The plastic fuselage, foam tail, and the carbon fibre tail boom were broken beyond repair. The electronics, wing, and motor seem just fine.

I've been looking around for something along the lines of a Nerf Crashless Trainer plane, where something absorbs the landing, er Crash shock.

OK, use a swim noodle (round or hexagon, color is optional) for the fuselage. Stick a single Blucore fin into a slot on the tail at 45 degrees, hinge the one resulting control surface, and hook it up to the RX/ESC/servo unit. Or perhaps recreate the entire v-tail with 2 control surfaces out of blucore. Whatever!

Move the pusher prop to the front after swapping the motor leads - a pusher is a LOT of design trouble. In this concept the motor will be somewhat isolated by being in the middle of the swim noodle. Press-fit it in place. Props are relatively cheap. Let 'em break!

Wire landing gear and (drum roll!) Tundra Tires, or not, for belly splashdowns.

Put the wing whevever it needs to go along the noodle for the proper CG, and cut out a small place to locate it onto the noodle. Use rubber bands, perhaps with dowels, or perhaps not.

Move the battery to right under the CG so whatever battery I have goes there without affecting the CG.

In the air, something like this would have to turn some heads, don't you think!

ghee-grose

Dec 06, 2005, 11:35 PM

That's a funny looking bird... but if it would fly it might be neat. Maybe somewhat crash-proof too.

The main problem I see is with the motor mount... you say to push it in there. If it's a motor that gets very warm (GWS) then you might get a melt away ejection of the motor in flight. :D

Moonbeam Six

Dec 06, 2005, 11:42 PM

Jim,

Without some dihedral, it might be a squirrelly bird. But it certainly has promise. Trimming a little of the excess mass off the rear portion of the fuselage might be worth considering.

Frank

Moonbeam Six

Dec 07, 2005, 12:06 AM

This is a Great Planes "Escapade." It has been a dormant project for a few months, until last weekend. It is about two hours from being ready to maiden. AUW will probably be around 11 ounces. Wing loading should be just over 7 ounces per square foot.

Frank

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 07, 2005, 05:11 AM

Without some dihedral, it might be a squirrelly bird. But it certainly has promise. Trimming a little of the excess mass off the rear portion of the fuselage might be worth considering.

Frank

I was planning to use the existing Commander II foam wing. I have 3 on hand, and they cost just $15. It already has dihedral, and is darn near indestructable, with enough packing tape "bandaids". Or of course, a squattier fff wing with dihedral is another good possibility. I just planned on using what I already had, and replacing what was missing or broken.

Yes, trimming off some excess material closer to the tail would make a lot of sense. And some rounding of the nose for better air flow from the relatively little prop past the large fuselage cross-section. Perhaps I need a hot knife for fuselage sculpting? Or a very steady hand with the Dremel tool!

In the thread where I found the other photo, they made a "plane" out of a full-length noodle (5 foot long, I think!), without ever cutting it anywhere. Just rubber-banded, tie-wrapped, or hot glued things onto it. It sure looked funny, and the flight dynamics resembled a snake! :p

That's a funny looking bird... but if it would fly it might be neat. Maybe somewhat crash-proof too.

The main problem I see is with the motor mount... you say to push it in there. If it's a motor that gets very warm (GWS) then you might get a melt away ejection of the motor in flight. :D

Funny-looking is probably an understatement!

Let's see, there's "crash-proof" and then there's ":censored: crash-proof". The first is possible, the second is not.

About the motor, yes it would need several cooling passages from the side-rear of the motor out to one or both fuselage sides for flow-thru air cooling. Since the Commander II was a pusher, it would not have gotten much air flow sucked thru the motor. I learned long ago that you can push air, but never ever pull air successfully.

I think besides inherent crash-resistance due to flexibility, the "secret" of this plane would be to reduce weight. Probably need to go to a 2S LiPo battery instead of the 6 or 7 cell 950 Mah NiMhs that it came with. A LiPo could go in a pocket cut at the CG right under the wing and be about as protected as is humanly possible. And no way it could come out in a crash, unless the wing came completely off.

In thinking about the tail - the "radio" I have is set up for a V-tail with pull-pull. They used a rubber band to flatten the tail control surfaces and two fishing lines to the servo to pull either the left or right surface up accordingly, rather than having one surface go up and the other go down for turning. I'm wondering if I need to duplicate that, or if I could go to pushrods and have the control surfaces move both ways. The original pull-pull design tends to give some down-stick to push the tail down and thereby pull up the nose some in a turn. Is that what I want, or is that what makes the Commander II tend to go into a death-spiral if the stick is held to one side too long? Ideally I'd like to come up with more of a slow sturdy trainer than a speedy crash and burner! :eek:

Edit - Silly Me! - The Rx/servo unit has just that, a servo, no fancy mixing or anything - so I could use a conventional tail and just not hinge the elevator!

About the landing gear - perhaps the tundra tires could be made with some slots so they would turn in flight, and be chromed......

ghee-grose

Dec 07, 2005, 07:15 AM

There ya go... we need a plane with some bling bling in our group. Chrome them wheels dog! :D

Moonbeam Six

Dec 07, 2005, 07:24 AM

Jim,

It will be a pretty draggy bird at best. You might have a hard time getting it to fly fast enought for a Commander or Aerobird-type wing to generate enough lift to get or keep it in the air. I doubt that your salvaged motor would do it. That is just my gut feel, for what it's worth.

Frank

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 07, 2005, 09:04 AM

Jim,
It will be a pretty draggy bird at best. You might have a hard time getting it to fly fast enough for a Commander or Aerobird-type wing to generate enough lift to get or keep it in the air. I doubt that your salvaged motor would do it. That is just my gut feel, for what it's worth. Frank

Wait a minute, I'm on the verge of learning something here. :)

The salvaged motor is the same motor that pushed the old (heavy) plane. Presumably with the same prop, but I could go to a larger diameter now with no hitting the tail boom diameter restriction. Pulling clean air ought to be at least a little more efficient than pushing right behind the wing/fuselage, and hopefully the new Franken plane will be a little lighter (LiPo), so overall the plane can potentially fly slower due to less weight, plus it can also fly faster at full speed if the prop slips less, assuming the drag is about the same.

But that long narrow flat-bottom wing needs a certain speed to make any lift. So it simply cannot go slower than original plane? Rats! :(

When I look at the old plastic fuselage, it is oblong instead of round, but with about the same frontal area as a swim noodle. Its surface is smooth plastic instead of the porus noodle plastic. It tapers sharply to a carbon fibre tube that goes back to the tail. Are you saying that a length of fuselage (about 3-4x the old fuselage length) adds a lot of drag because of the length itself? Skin drag? In addition to its more or less the same frontal area?

In another unrelated discussion, Rick at R/C Hobbies told me the Commander II fuselage/boom setup was more draggy than a full-length fuselage would be, without detailed explanation why that was, other than it was "less aerodynamic shaped" and therefore higher drag. So I thought I was going in the direction of goodness with a full fuselage instead of a tiny boom. And so far booms break!

Thanks for pointing it (drag) out. I guess I may need to change something else to make this work as intended.

ghee-grose

Dec 07, 2005, 09:14 AM

If you've got the time... might as well try it and see what happens. :rolleyes:

atjurhs

Dec 07, 2005, 09:39 AM

SYAWLA INVERTED

Dec 07, 2005, 11:24 AM

I'm sure I'll cook the 400 on 3cells. I have had my eye on the 450TH from Just Go Fly to run on Lipos, that should get a Stryker or BOP moving pretty good. I think it would eat up a small field pretty quickly though, I may not get to fly it much if it's too fast.

SU Jags, I have the old Striker (that is build for 8.4V) and I put a 11.1 li-po with the standard brushed motor that came with it, and it screams. I don't know how long the electronics will last, but it's fun and worth the risk. The new F-27 will allow you to put the 11.1v with no problem. I did go to a new prop but the rest is OEM. Jason has a video of me the other day but it is too large to post (5Meg) I can e-mail it to you if you like

nuevo

Dec 07, 2005, 12:02 PM

I bought a Watt-Age Sporty (I think) this weekend. Wondering what servos to put in it.

The Sporty is a cheasy little 28" span aerobatic plane. Made all of white foam, but has hollow foam wings. I expect it to come out around 11 oz.

I found a review here:
http://www.retail-leaders.com/reviews/128416rcmf.htm

The instructions recommend CS-10 servos, which are no longer made. I was thinking of the Blue Bird BMS 303 (http://www.balsapr.com/catalog/Servos/bluebirdMicroServoView.asp?ProductId=V174359) or BMS 306 (http://www.balsapr.com/catalog/Servos/bluebirdMicroServoView.asp?ProductId=T544969)? Any thoughts if these servos are ok? I've used Blue bird 371's in the past with good results.

Other servos I was considering are the Dymond (http://www.rc-dymond.com/order_servo_dymond.htm) D47 or D54 servos. These seem to be popular among the HLG crowd. The Hitec HS-50 might do also, but it's a little pricier.

Thoughts anyone?

wheatfly

Dec 07, 2005, 01:05 PM

Jonstone,

If it is a Sporty becareful. I have a friend that flew one for a bit and it had a nasty tip stall tendency. It was not unflyable or anything but the recovery was pretty harsh. We flew it inside the Auburn Basketball Collesium which added some pucker factor. I think the biggest thing was to pretty much fly fast the whole time between 3/4 - full throttle. Again this was with the stock brushed setup. We also used a 3 cell lipo and burned the motor up pretty quick. I don't have a clue how much it weighed though. If you research it at all I'm sure you will see more comments on the tip stall.

Later
Shannon

nuevo

Dec 07, 2005, 01:31 PM

I did see some comments on the tip-stall. But the reveiwer was obviously a new flyer (had never flown inverted). Thanks. I'll keep that in mind about flying speed. The plane was probably not designed to putter slow around the sky.

dleviner

Dec 07, 2005, 02:19 PM

SU Jags, I have the old Striker (that is build for 8.4V) and I put a 11.1 li-po with the standard brushed motor that came with it, and it screams. I don't know how long the electronics will last, but it's fun and worth the risk. The new F-27 will allow you to put the 11.1v with no problem. I did go to a new prop but the rest is OEM. Jason has a video of me the other day but it is too large to post (5Meg) I can e-mail it to you if you like

Mike, the Stryker is powered by a 480 size brushed motor (which is a 7.2v motor). So if you load it with a 5.5x4.5 prop or maybe even a 6x4 on 3S Lipo you should be fine on current draw.

And yes, it should scream!

see:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201680
and
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320551

specifically look at Vintage1 comments.

Moonbeam Six

Dec 07, 2005, 09:21 PM

Jim,

Hey, give the Noodle Doodle a try. One never knows. Given enough power, just about anything can be made to fly. To fly resonably well, is a bit more of a challenge. From the picture on your post, I would guess that the tail feathers would be operating in a lot of turbulant air from the abrupt aft end of the noodle. So, control authority would be a concern. That is why I recommended trimming it to a more aerodynamically clean shape. I couldn't tell if the bird had ailerons, but I assumed not. With no dihedral, roll coupling would be slim. Again, a controllability concern. With a high-lift airfoil designed for lower airspeeds, and with a few degrees of dihedral, it would probably be a reasonably good plane to play around with. ("Good" meaning resonalbly stabile and with enough control authority to make it fly generally where you want it to go.) Certainly, a more crash damage-resistant aircraft would be nice. The Aerobird-type wing is designed for higer speeds, and it is at the higher speeds that greater drag is going to be realized. The motor has to produce enough thrust to overcome the parasitic drag from the airframe and the induced drag that is a by-product of the lift generation. I don't know how much power your motor produces. It may be enough. Try it and see.

Regarding the relative dragginess of pushers, I'll leave that up to the experts. I considered my Aerobird a relatively aerodynamically clean design. And I know from experience, that wing will not support the airplane if it gets very slow.

Good luck with the design.

Frank

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 08, 2005, 03:29 AM

Jim,
Why not just get a boom stick from Rick's, and build your own tail. This is essentially what I did with "Franky". With a square shaped boom a standard tail easily mounts right to the boom, so do the servos and Rx package, and if you get a boom that matches the size/dimensions of a SS then all those GWS 300, 350, and 400 motor mounts will fit.

An excellent suggestion, but that would be something like a SS. I have several SS "projects" in the works, all basicaly just awaiting 3-channel radio gear to proceed. Eminently practical. But all some ways off time-wise for one reason or another.

This FrankyNoodle is more of a "recycling" project centered around reusing bits and pieces from the two sets of "disposable" 2-channel planes/radio gear to get something inexpensive, unique, hopefully with desirable flying characteristics. I.E. a "fun" design diversion/procrastination project to do right now with stuff mostly on hand instead of putting up the Christmas decorations and cleaning house. But yesterday I put together a list of materials and tools needed, and that's not cheap! And the project results are not guaranteed.

If something broke free on one of the SS projects, this one could be back-burnered in an instant. You know the leapfrog and sometimes-never nature of some projects.

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 08, 2005, 03:57 AM

Jim,
Hey, give the Noodle Doodle a try. One never knows.......Frank
The voice of general and specific wisdom! Thanks!

Remember, the photo I found is simply the concept inspiration for a FrankyNoodle design, not my specific detailed design/intent. Sometimes a picture is worth 1,000 words. In my case, (2 sets of) 2-channel plane stuff I have already sunk $$ into plus a swim noodle (dirt-cheap Nerfy raw fuselage material) to stick it all together onto and inside, as appropriate. Nothing like you've ever nor are you likely ever to see at the LHS. As I said, a FrankyNoodle! :D Anyone have any stick-on neck-bolts left over from Halloween for decoration?

Sounds like I need to look for or make a different wing (perhaps Bluecor) for slow-speed flight instead of trying to reuse the 3 (indestructable!) Commander II wings I have on hand. Or design it to support/mount several different interchangeable wings with the CG fixed at the same point on the plane. Pick the wing dejour!

atjurhs

Dec 08, 2005, 09:21 AM

dleviner

Dec 08, 2005, 09:53 AM

...I.E. a "fun" design diversion/procrastination project to do right now with stuff mostly on hand instead of putting up the Christmas decorations and cleaning house...

I know what you mean Jim!!! I love my wife to death, but she is the type that loves to throw Christmas parties all holiday season... I have been doing nothing but helping her around the house for each party. Not so bad though, the food is great and the house is always full on weekends. It sortof "makes" the christmas and holiday season.

dl

Jim_Marconnet

Dec 09, 2005, 08:08 AM

Hey Jim,
I saw a Slo-V replacemnent CF fuse/boom plus all the plastic wing and servo and tail connector/brakets at HobbyTown (near Target) for $10. That would be a cheap solution. Just mount your wing and tail feathers (or build your own tail feathers like I did for Franky) and install your radio gear and you're in the air.
Yes, another Practical and Cheap solution! Thanks.

Actually since the servo is mounted on the Rx circuit board, it does not lend itself well to mounting on typical SS or Slo-V servo mounts. But that is a minor detail I'm sure, if I really wanted to go that way.

I went looking for a swim noodle yesterday, and found they seem to all have migrated to warmer climates for the winter. Guess the FrankyNoodle approach, good, bad, or indifferent, won't float at least till I can find a noodle to play around with.

I thought about asking Frank to sell me 2 feet of his raw material for Tundra Tires, but figured that would keep two dozen sets of Tundra Tires out of the air - being unfair to the Renegades :)

SU Jags

Dec 10, 2005, 05:33 PM

Hope to have it done by the weekend so I can see how bouncy this EPP stuff is.

Oh yeah, it bounces pretty good. That stupid little push on prop came off; I couldnt turn into the wind to land, stalled and.............. I think I'm gonna like this wing, it was faster than I expected it to be (probably because of the 12mph tail wind), and it glides and glides (even with 12 nickels taped to its belly). I just need to get a few APC props and couple of new battery packs, my old KAN 1400s cut out within 2 min.

GLIDERGIDER

Dec 12, 2005, 08:38 AM

Oh yeah, it bounces pretty good. That stupid little push on prop came off; I couldnt turn into the wind to land, stalled and.............. I think I'm gonna like this wing, it was faster than I expected it to be (probably because of the 12mph tail wind), and it glides and glides (even with 12 nickels taped to its belly). I just need to get a few APC props and couple of new battery packs, my old KAN 1400s cut out within 2 min.
SU Jags,
Glad you had some success. I presume it's a bushed motor and you are using the pushon 5x5 props. Before I went to the prop-saver spindle, I had a heck of a time keeping those push-on props on the motor shaft. Theres a trick, Poke a needle through the the prop hub to allow the air to escape. Then push the prop on all the way to the hilt. If I left any air trapped in the hub, the prop would spin off, and the hub would be burnt by the friction of spinning off. You'd have to buy replacement hubs.

By the way, why did you have 12 nickels taped on the bottom?