CyBird, new kid on the block? [Archive]

lad3

Aug 27, 2002, 11:26 AM

I also wrote the Cybird folks. They're only interested in distributors at this time.

they have several models: a smaller "toy" version, with a timer or single-channel speed control. And the real thing, w/ 3 channel RC. If the kit was ARF, and maybe included the electronics, then it would be competitive with the Park Hawk.

I don't know how well it could be built. I can't imagine how they overcome the stress on the hinges and struts. It didn't surprise me that the Park Hawk needed a hinge upgrade.

I really wanna fly either one of these things, but I guess I'm waiting for the bugs to be shook out.

Meanwhile, I can (affordably) look forward to this :-) :

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p.pgm?Q=1&I=LXCAF0&P=7

lad3

Aug 28, 2002, 11:07 AM

---- Instructive Hilarity ----

If you want to see the Cybird more up close (including glimpses of the top hinge mechanism in action), click on this video:

http://www.cybird-shop.com/cf.htm

It is on the "AD gallery" page that tells you:

------------------------------------------------
"The dream to fly like a bird comes true.

Cybird is a bird and a hero in the sky.

No bounds in freedom of Cybird

Infinite happiness with Cybird"
-------------------------------------------------

(Hey, I'm ALL for infinite happiness - as long as the bucks involved are FINITE!)

BTW: the video has some wonderfully upbeat muzak - I believe it is "The ABC Movie of the Week" theme from the 70's (McCloud)!!!![I]

Jerry Rose

Aug 28, 2002, 07:33 PM

Great video. Me thinks it was made for the Pacific Rim market rather than Americans though. All I wanted to see was images of the Cybird flapping about - not all those surf boards and sunsets. But somebody put a lot of money into that Ad campaign! Let's hope they sell so many that the price comes down appropriately too!

Thanks for finding that video clip Lad3!

lad3

Sep 01, 2002, 04:49 PM

Click on the cybird video page - the videos called "gliding" & "landing2" - very impressive flight and (hand caught) landing characteristics!

niek

Sep 09, 2002, 04:30 AM

Website gone?

Theo coenen

Sep 09, 2002, 12:56 PM

Looks like it I am trying for several days now but cannot get to it.

Sparr

Sep 13, 2002, 09:11 AM

that spinmaster airhog ornithopter looks promising. i have been contemplating buying some of their air-powered planes for conversion to RC (maybe still air powered, maybe electric)

lad3

Sep 13, 2002, 11:29 PM

I'm salivating over the New Air Hog model, too. I bet it can do some flapping - I just hope they have the gremlins worked out.

I don't think the Hogs, as they are, can really be converted to R/C. Maybe, as some suggest, with multiple engines running off a 2 liter bottle or aluminum can. More effecient props are needed as well.

Of course, some othi-tech type said there would never be an air-driven Air Hog Ornithopter (at least with the older engine set-ups)!

lad3

Sep 15, 2002, 01:05 AM

Run this page thru the AltaVista babelfish translator:

http://service.sportsseoul.com/special/zine/m1/read.asp?num=117

Actually, don't bother, the pix tell more than the translation.

From the "O-Zome" Orthithopter BB:

http://indev.hypermart.net/bb.html

"Sylvester Riel 11 September 2002
Ray Bayer, since noone has responded to your question concerning the Cybird and since I too share the same interest in the Cybird, I will offer you the courtesy of this response. I sent 2 emails to Neuros inquiring about the Cybird. They responded to the second with the following: Dear Sylvester, First of all I appreciate for your interest in Cybird. The cybird is not available now but maybe in September small quantity of cybird will be offered to overseas customers directly. Our quotation is still on the process. In my personal experience as a novice of R/C hobbyist, you need three or 4 weeks to fly cybird in windy day. To fly cybird is a kind of game with wind and somewhat different experience from the airplanes and helicopters. The color and delivery will be decided in due course. If we have some stocks, the delivery will take 3 or 4 working days through DHL. The all components except transmitter will be included in one package. The transmitter is available at the local R/C shops or on-line shops. If you have already a transmitter, you can use that one. If you want to buy a cybird, let me contact you at the early September. Sincerely, Jason Lee Marketing Manager, Neuros Co., Ltd. Tel. +82-42-865-7311/7300 Fax.+82-42-865-7320/7340 E-mail jasons99@neuros.co.kr website www.cybird-shop.com or www.cybirdshop.com Address 461-35 Jeonmin-dong, Youseong-gu, Daejeon, Republic of Korea (zip 305-811) I hope this helps. "

pascal

Oct 18, 2002, 12:58 PM

Has anyone already got an reply with the price listed? And/or delivery possibility's?

I was already able to buy the cybird for a certain price a while back, sadly i had to order at least 20 products, thus to expensive.

I now remailled them for price and delivery possibility's. Hope to get a good workable response this time as that tend not to be neuros best quality.

Its past september so whe just wait for the response, what a special product the cybird is :)
If its reasonable priced i will order it and be the first in my country to posess it :)

Antiatom

Oct 18, 2002, 01:11 PM

They seem to have a better distribution and set-up, but I don't trust Korean products. They are usually pretty cheap and shotty.

Sparr

Oct 18, 2002, 01:22 PM

I am approaching them from the position of a distributor with the hopes of getting more detailed information on the Cybird P2, including contents of the kit, specs on all the equipment, etc. I have requested a price and timeframe quote on an order of 20 birds. If the pricing and quality is comparable to the Parkhawk I will be ordering 20 for resale and this forum will definitely be the first to know!

lad3

Oct 18, 2002, 10:59 PM

If it is in the range of the PH, then that would include the radio and RTF components?

I will be interested to know if the thing holds together well!

Sparr

Oct 19, 2002, 03:28 AM

WOW! They replied FAST! They want a prospectus from me on resale, as well as payment info via T/T and having never done anything like this it will take a bit for me to put together.

They are willing to ship me a complete RTF sample for $300, with a lead time of 30-40 days on production of 20 of the real bird. The real bird will cost less (I am guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of $200) as they are including radio gear with the sample. Here is the info I have so far:

The fuselage cover is formed PE (polyeurethane?). The frame (what we consider the fuselage on the parkhawk) is PV (??) layered between carbon. Both the wing and tail are carbon frame with a fabric surface. The motor is a Mabuchi 370. Metal pinion gear, plastic drive gear. Battery is a 1Ah 11.1V lithium pack (3 cells). Chargers include a car charger and a wall adaptor. ESC is a Jeti JES110. All of that is included in the real product.

My sample will also include a 3CH FM radio, a Feather Rx, and 2 micro servos (HS55 or 81 maybe?).

Can anyone who has done a business order like this before help me out? They want my "Postal Account Number" and I have no clue what that is. I also have no idea what T/T is although I imagine it is a direct wire transfer of some sort.

pascal

Oct 19, 2002, 05:50 AM

Sparr i had the same e-mail from them just recieved.

As i have not really ever written any real business and marketing plans i have to look into that. As High school student i have sadly not many time to write those plans.

Korean and Japanase people have a strong feeling for buisness, its somewhat integrated in their daily lives. I find the price off 300 US dollars, acceptable and i will place the order.

Perhaps we can colobrate somehow in setting up the documents, i already have finised some reading about the subject and its possible for me to put my thoughts in a document.

Pascal

panzernord

Oct 19, 2002, 10:40 AM

Hi guys,

just found this forum and never thought,ornithopters for RC use were already available :)
hmmmm...............Park-Hawk or Cybird.......both videos look great !
Please keep us posted when Cybird will be for sale;i'll definetly
buy one !
I'm into electric flight for a long time now.......but i think i just fell in love !;)

Best wishes,

Torsten
Sylt / Germany

andyUK

Oct 20, 2002, 01:55 PM

Hi Sparr

A T/T is a telex transfer. The most common way which bussiness use to transfer money. You require benificary a/c no, bank, swift code, ABI code , and your bank will arange.

I am owner of a company in UK which imports various goods from Far East and would like to pass this tip.

Trade imports from the far east are not for the faint hearted. If any one decides to import you will find that volume is the most important factor in the price quotes. If for instance you are quoted 200.00 for 20 pcs than there is probably a 200 pc price which will make the retail price below 200.00 . So by the time your delivery arives it may be on sale in Hobby People etc for 199.99.

It is debatable if birds will ever sell in vast volumes. I hope it has the same semi-cult following which we have in UK for Piccolo indoor heli. Visit there site so feel to buzz .

I will however buy any r/c flapping device which is available as I am nuts about them.

Andy

Sparr

Oct 20, 2002, 03:23 PM

unless one of the big retailers decides to take up ornithopters i dont think anyone will be ordering more than 20. i doubt there is a market for more than 200 of them in the entire USA over the next year, unfortunately.

rodair

Oct 20, 2002, 04:03 PM

It's always the first 20 that are hard to sell, after they come cheaper and most of the time better...please post some pictures as soon as you received them.
Roger

lad3

Oct 21, 2002, 11:42 AM

You guys gotta think outside of the hanger! :-)

I envision some of the "exciting" cybird footage offered up as filler to Battlebots or Tech TV.

Have the thang interact (in a nice, PC way :-) ) w/ REAL birds, cut to the geek, er, pilot, at the tx controls.

Or, show a bunch of crows, hawks, whatever, circling in the air, suddenly, one bird breaks out of formation with YOU at the controls!!!! Cue the music...fade to sunset sky...

It'll sell. Believe me, it'll sell!

pascal

Oct 28, 2002, 03:18 AM

IT wil definitly sell,

Pretty easy to sell 40 in short time :D

Theo coenen

Oct 28, 2002, 04:36 PM

I do not think so.

If I had the money I would rather buy the Parkhawk then a Cybird.

The parkhawk has proven itself. The Cybird not yet.

pascal

Oct 28, 2002, 05:19 PM

It will be. Im getting one for testing purposes, expected delivery this week or next week.

I keep everyone informed. A special review will be written on my website

http://modelvliegen.com
http://forum.modelvliegen.com

At first it will be dutch, later i translate it to english.

lad3

Oct 29, 2002, 11:06 AM

Yes, I would be very interested to see how the PH and the Cybird compare ( in English :rolleyes: ) . Somehow, the cybird excites me more, though the PH has more familiarity, testing and revisions.

Then there is the RandRmodelaircraft Thopters™ "Kestrel" (http://www.randrmodelaircraft.com/RC_Ornithopters.htm) :
-----------------
"Electric R/C Ornithopter
*** With new no slop, bullet proof hinges featuring Oilite bushings and G-10 construction!! ***

Limited availability while production gears up. Guaranteed delivery within two to three weeks of payment received or your money returned at your request!
**Spare parts available for Kestrel and Park Hawk. **Note: We no longer represent Kinkade RC's products due to difficulties. Those that have bought Park Hawks from us can get parts for them through us."
An electric ornithopter utilizing ARF construction. Designed for the greatest ease of setup and flying. Please inquire as to availability at David@RandRmodelaircraft.com .
------------
Which seems identical to the PH?

Meanwhile, while I'm waiting...the Air Hogs Ornithopter has been delayed until "early Nov." (must be the longshoreman's slow-down) - sigh!
:(

lad3

Oct 29, 2002, 01:03 PM

Response from my inquiry:
"They are virtually identical except that the Kestrel has a better hinge design than the Park Hawk. It has a bullet proof G-10 assembly with oilite bushings for the pivot point of the main spar's hinge. We also are the manufacturer and can help a flyer out directly with any problems that may occur. We offer spare parts and a better instruction set. Hope this helps,

David Riedel
R&R Model Aircraft"

lad3

Oct 29, 2002, 10:49 PM

Just to clarify - I don't know IF the Kestrel is any better than the PH or the Cybird. While I think the PH is the innovator, and has a somewhat proven track record, there is always the possibility for improved design or more durable construction. I'm not ready to plunk $200 quite down yet for any model, but if and when I do, I want something that will hold together for awhile. As it stands, I'm cautious about thinking that any of them will not eventually rattle themselves into pieces! :-)

Jerry Rose

Oct 29, 2002, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by lad3
As it stands, I'm cautious about thinking that any of them will not eventually rattle themselves into pieces! :-)

All I can speak to is the ParkHawk - although the Kestrel looks like it will be nearly the same. I don't see either as something that would eventually rattle into pieces. I think a better analogy would be to compare them with a Helicopter. There are critical bolts and set screws that can come loose. And loose screws can certainly lead to a crash - just like with the 'Copter.

Preventive Maintenance is absolutely required. The daily routine must include a good preflight, and attention must be given to each bolt and screw that even "might" come loose. (Lock-Tite Titen is your friend.) However, the payoff is that you end up flying the coolest thing in the park. The bird never gets "lost" out there, and EVERYBODY else will know where it is too, because it is so stinking obvious as it flaps around.

eflyer1234

Oct 30, 2002, 09:20 PM

The Kestral IS a copy of the Park Hawk.

R and R was the original dealer for the Park Hawk and started to make his own copies when the supply line was thin. (it still is thin at times) The improved hinges are actually something that he discussed as an improvement to the Park Hawk with Sean. Sean chose to make a different improvement that appears on both the newer Park Hawks and the Slow Hawks.

-Jeffrey

rodair

Oct 31, 2002, 06:37 AM

Jeffrey,
you are right! , now the next best thing that can happen is the structure modifications ie (spar thickness, ) colors, and the installation of better (li-on) batt. maybe some self locking nuts.
Roger

andyUK

Nov 05, 2002, 05:38 AM

Hi Pascal , lad3 , Spaar

Hi guys, any luck with the Cybird . I am keen to see if you get a bird and how it preforms. Also if you get stock for sale I may want one.

Please feel free to e-mail me with any news on this .

I am still waiting for my first bird, the Parkhawk.

Andy

KOROBELNIK

Nov 06, 2002, 02:19 PM

No Comments

pascal

Nov 07, 2002, 03:10 AM

Nice you are already recieved your copy
Mine is on its way deu to slow bank transfer of money it took some more days for me.

I will be able to supply the cybird (price not known yet) for the following country's very quickly (since I live in the Netherlands) With bulk orders it will be able to be cheaper!

Country's

suspended, in my enthousiasm i posted this message a while back.

If anyone in these country's is interesed let me know by mail: shop@modelvliegen.com

pascal

Nov 19, 2002, 06:14 PM

still waiting for a sample..

The above post was under some hold back ;)

Im looking forward to flying with the cybird. hope it sets me free somhow :)

pascal

Nov 21, 2002, 04:15 PM

Persons above have requested me for information about the cybird.

I have recieved 1 cybird and i will not grand those requests for close up pictures.

I respect the product, the company and i believe in the cybird! I will do all my efforts to keep the cybird out of the hands of those people who want to cheaply copy it..

Respect goes out to the ones who made the ornithopter possible: Neuros

lad3

Nov 22, 2002, 09:51 AM

So, all this implies that the CyBird is neither cheaply made nor a blatant copy of the Park Hawk?

If so, that is good on both accounts. Competition and choice is always good for the consumer. Now it comes down to price, performance and endurance.

pascal

Nov 22, 2002, 11:05 AM

I recieved my sample of the cybird and can tell you this:

- High quality materials are used to build up the product and finish it off
- The contents of the package is very nice and over complete..
- The Cybird is worth its money as for this moment no price can be given yet.

I dont own the Parkhawk but the cybird is has more body, its neater to the eye and it flyes for up to 20 minutes!! (can you say that about the parkhawk, guess not)

:) im very happy with it.

I cant give any more information at this point.

Jerry Rose

Nov 22, 2002, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by pascal
I dont own the Parkhawk but the cybird is has more body, its neater to the eye and it flyes for up to 20 minutes!! (can you say that about the parkhawk, guess not)

Sean Kinkade recently posted a ParkHawk flight of 29 minutes. So for the moment, he holds the record.

From a consumers point of view, the existance of both models gives us more choice, and it drives the designers to keep on improving their products. (Sean seems unilaterally driven to improve the ParkHawk - even without outside influence.) Never-the-less, the trend is neat!

I'm looking forward to the time when some Cybird owners start posting reports about how it handles! The CB sure looks cool.

Sean Kinkade

Nov 22, 2002, 07:46 PM

I just wanted to set the record straight since I see there is a post mentioning the need for a "hinge upgrade" on the earlier Park Hawks, as well as one unscrupulous individual out there claiming to have "bullet proof hinges" on his Park Hawk copy
( rip-off), which implies the Park Hawk has or had inferior wing hinges.
First of all, if assembled correctly, all of the hinges supplied on all versions of the park Hawk are "bulletproof". The initial hinge design was changed not due to mechanical problems or stresses but due to difficulty and costs to manufacture it. The second hinge design ( white delrin standoffs) were much easier and more cost effective to manufacture and were fully substantial as can be attested by Jeffrey Goodman who logged countless flights with those hinges, however, there were some reports from the field of a few problems which were most likely due to a fluke on my part which had to due with the mounting hole pattern on some fuselages which resulted in a poor fit of the hinge onto the pin, NOT with the hinge itself. Regardless, I took the customer complaints to heart and responded with overkill, thus, the current larger black delrin hinges which are as "bulletproof" as an armored car when assembled correctly. Even so, I now offer a precision ball bearing wing hinge ( not oilite bushings) upgrade for those who prefer bearings.
The ball bearing hinge upgrade is currently only available for the Slow Hawk but will be available on the Park Hawk in the near future.

Sean

Sean Kinkade

Nov 22, 2002, 08:23 PM

Pascal,

I have now flown the Park Hawk with my 3 cell lithium battery and I seriously doubt the CyBird will out perform it. I am willing to wager a competition by video between both of my models and the CyBird.

* The Slow Hawk is the hero in the sky and laughs at the short 20 minute flights by such a court jester as the Cybird. The CyBird is powerless against the Slow Hawk. Infinite humiliation with CyBird.*

As I write this, a shipment of Park Hawks and a Slow Hawk is on its way to Robert Korobelnik in Montrouge France by FEDEX. Included in the shipment is a lithium battery and charger for Robert. He should have the package by Tuesday so if you are in correspondence with Robert you can find out directly from him what the performance is of the Park Hawk and Slow Hawk on lithium power. You should buy a Park Hawk from Robert.

As for being pleasant to the eyes. I have one customer who thinks the CyBird looks like a flying shoebox! Besides, I know full well how to manufacture a nice vacuum formed body. I already did it years ago for the SkyBird. I was just aiming to keep the price down on the Park Hawk so I sold it bare bones. Body shells for both my models will be forthcoming as optional parts and they won't look like a box of Adidas.:D

Cheers,

Sean

lad3

Nov 22, 2002, 11:23 PM

EAST vs. WEST:
FIGHT it out Birdo a' birdo till the last one is left flyin'!

& Put it on Pay Per View!!!!:p

Theo coenen

Nov 24, 2002, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by Sean Kinkade
Pascal,

I have now flown the Park Hawk with my 3 cell lithium battery and I seriously doubt the CyBird will out perform it. I am willing to wager a competition by video between both of my models and the CyBird.

* The Slow Hawk is the hero in the sky and laughs at the short 20 minute flights by such a court jester as the Cybird. The CyBird is powerless against the Slow Hawk. Infinite humiliation with CyBird.*

As I write this, a shipment of Park Hawks and a Slow Hawk is on its way to Robert Korobelnik in Montrouge France by FEDEX. Included in the shipment is a lithium battery and charger for Robert. He should have the package by Tuesday so if you are in correspondence with Robert you can find out directly from him what the performance is of the Park Hawk and Slow Hawk on lithium power. You should buy a Park Hawk from Robert.

As for being pleasant to the eyes. I have one customer who thinks the CyBird looks like a flying shoebox! Besides, I know full well how to manufacture a nice vacuum formed body. I already did it years ago for the SkyBird. I was just aiming to keep the price down on the Park Hawk so I sold it bare bones. Body shells for both my models will be forthcoming as optional parts and they won't look like a box of Adidas.:D

Cheers,

Sean

Come on Pascal show us youre guts and get into this competition. Let everybody see wich bird is the best.

It is a shame that I do not have the money to spend right now or else I would buy a Parkhawk just to show off at the Dutch Meetings. That is why I am working with some friends on our own design of an ornithopter.

pascal

Nov 24, 2002, 07:32 AM

Haha funny this is,

I dont have real time this week,
Study etc :|

Also its not possible for me to make a decent video of the cybird in flight since i dont have any cams. I do have my digicam which support movies upto 30 seconds in high quality. I dont see why there should be a competition, 20 mins and longer flights give you time enough, afterwards just switch the accu pack and enjoy another flight time.

I do believe your products are very nice Sean, and i did not wanted to call any product "better" than the other, that was not the intention.

@Sean:
You're getting some Concurrents Sean :D hope that will be good for the *price* :D By the way Sean, your website is currently blank? It would be wise to make a nice website with pictures product information and perhaps order details.

--> I would like to make you an offer:
I make a beautefull, functional website for you with product details, information and order online system so you can take your own order true your website, in return you deliver me the Parkhawk package with a discount of $100 ;) i seriously mean this, tell me if you like the idea and if we can arrange something, I have made many websites for clients, my own website is http://forum.modelvliegen.com and of course just modelvliegen.com

Just as with the Cybird i will compile a nice test, review report with some pics on my site, viewed by thousand of people each month.

To conclude, Both birds have there cons and pro's i guess, to get the best from both worlds you would buy both of them.

Sean Kinkade

Nov 24, 2002, 10:32 AM

Pascal,

I appreciate your offer to build my website. However, I would like a bio/history section on myself on my website and you are sadly misinformed about who made the R/C ornithopter ( as we know it today) possible. You need to get up to speed on the history of ornithopter development before you build a website for me.

It was not Neuros who made the ornithopter possible. It was P.H. Spencer who first succeeded with a motorized, membrane winged ornithopter in the 1950's and yours truly who developed large gas and electric R/C ornithopters in the 1990's, resulting in the first commercially produced kits. There were also organizing influences in the development and promotion of ornithopters such as Nathan Chronister and Pat Deshaye.

Neuros is a Johnny come lately. I had an 8 foot wingspan gas powered R/C ornithopter called the VT-2 flying in January of 1998 ( doumented on video) and a commercial version called the SkyBird in mid 1999 and developed the EP SkyBird ( electric) in early 2000. My SkyBird was displayed at the October 1999 RCHTA trade show in Chicago where it was seen by thousands of people, many of whom were foreigners and Oriental I might add. Right across from my booth was a Korean company called Alpex, who sold servos and radio gear. No telling if they had an affiliation with the people who became Neuros but anyone can look at the CyBird and see construction and layout similarities to the SkyBird.

In 2000 I was courted by three big model manufacturers, Thunder Tiger, Kyosho, and Megatech. Aling Lai of Thunder Tiger came to Florida and visited me for 3 days, scoping out my shop under the guise that we had a manufacturing deal in the works. He flaked. Next, Kyosho flew me all expenses paid to Atsugi Japan to demo my EP SkyBird, also under the guise that we had a deal. They too scoped my designs up close and then welched on the deal. Then Megatech came along promising a sweet deal and bought my EP SkyBird prototype to take to Taiwan and then went silent, refusing to return my phone calls. So, my point is the fact that my successful designs were all over the place before Neuros had a clue. For an authentic history of ornithopter development go to the Flapping Flight website. Nathan Chronister has been chronicalling this data for nearly a decade.

Actually, I almost forgot to mention another successful electric R/C ornithopter that also preceded the CyBird, and that is the TrueFly by Albert Kemph, a frenchman. He now also has the Piaf. There have actually been a few other successes during the 1990's such as Nathan Chronisters' Electric Dawn, Harris and Delauriers Mr. Bill, Horst Rabigers flapping sailplane, and various models by a German man by the name of Horst Handler.
None of these models however were refined to the level of production and affordability but to say Neuros made the ornithopter possible is now obviously incorrect and irresponsible reporting.

No hard feelings, just want to set the record straight. Please e-mail me at thopter@earthlink.net to discuss your website offer.

Sean

Starwrek

Nov 24, 2002, 02:06 PM

To all who care about the Kestre/Park Hawk debacle, let me chime in. I was Sean Kinkades first dealer of the Park Hawk and promoted him a great deal on my website of www.randrmodelaircraft.com . I tried to get him to patent the Park Hawk even with my patent lawyer friend's help, but he wouldn't do it and now it is too late. I even offered to help produce the Park Hawk under license so he could get it out to his customers. I helped him with legal matters concerning Wilfred in Canada ( RoboFalcon) who has a claim on his business, advising him of how he should handle it through my lawyer friends at no expense to him (no, I am not a lawyer). The Kestrel is not an unauthorized copy of the Park Hawk since anyone can legally make one if they wish (just don't copy the head as that can be copyrighted). I had a customer approach me saying that he could build one with my financial backing and I would be the main dealer. I resisted at first until Sean took the money I paid at one point ($1800.00) and sold my birds to someone else because he was short on cash, before I received them much later to give to very unhappy customers who waited. This was not the first time either. Since then I have been contacted by numerous people, hobby shops and magazines who are trying to locate him to get their money back because he hasn't delivered their birds after over three months. Sean is good designer, but he ignores most of his customers that deal with him directly. The Kestrel is what I feel to be an upgraded version, especially on the hinges. The Park Hawk had round Delrin hinge posts that had a failure problem, which has since been corrected as I understand. I also think the instructions and customer support are far better and the hinges themselves are I feel, bulletproof. They are also available with bearings, but so far there has been no interest to offset the expense as the oilites work fine and are quite durable. Spare parts are also available for either model. There are many R/C businesses that make Extra 300's, so the same is true of unpatented ornithopters. In the end, it is the consumer who benefits and business is business. It is nothing personal, but I cannot help lack of business sense even when it is pointed out directly to someone. In short, the Kestrel is a legal variation of the Park Hawk which will serve you well. I cannot help that Sean is sour, but I warned him time after time this would happen.

David Riedel
R&R Model Aircraft
:rolleyes:

ornitech

Nov 24, 2002, 11:03 PM

Firstly, I must say that I am disheartened by this situation. I was going to contact Mr Reidel to get some more information about the kestrel for the OS newsletter, however in light of these recent events, I'm going to have to rethink this. Sure the OS members have a right to know about something "new" in the ornithopter world, however I think it unethical to give free publicity to a stolen idea. But anyway, ornithopters are an emerging technology, and we ornithopterists are of the forefront. There is a lot of money to be made here, and there are some people that will do unethical things to get it, just a fact of the world we live in.

My 2 cents,

-Sean Frawley

lad3

Nov 25, 2002, 05:22 PM

The ornithopter debate is a story in itself! Run with it! The competition, "copying" and burgeoning technologies are only proof of the growing interest!

BillB

Nov 26, 2002, 12:41 AM

I too am disheartened by some of things I have been hearing but it will always be Sean Kincaid that people remember as the father of R/C Ornithopters. There is plenty of business to go around as I believe too that in the very near future Ornipthopters will rule the skies both for R/C models and as a viable personal transportation vehicle. I believe (now that Sean has opened my mind to the possibilities) that the future of personal transportation is flapping flight. We as people better our selves through new ideas that in turn spark other new ideas and it is technology that brings very different people closer together in common interests.

lad3

Nov 26, 2002, 09:47 AM

I can see R/C mechanical birds catching on big someday, when they are as cheap and widely available as Air Hogs R/C. But personal transportation? Maybe on Mars. But the cost/energy/efficiency ratio (not to mention the noisey, bumpy rides) doesn't seem competitive with conventional planes.

Sean Kinkade

Nov 26, 2002, 10:51 AM

There are pros and cons to building full size ornithopters but I do see them as being feasible on earth. On the contrary to lad 3, their efficiency can actually be expected to be rather high when the aircraft niche they would most likely fill would be that of ultralight personal transport such as the hang glider fabric wing variety.
One milestone to be overcome which I am personally working on, is a fully mechanically articulated wing. Once a dynamic folding wing is developed, much of the pilot oscillation issues will be minimized plus STOL will be maximized.
Just watch a large heron or pelican in flight and how graceful they are as their wings fluidly sweep and they flap.

Critics of new technology are ubiquitous. I listened to all sorts of reasons why my R/C ornithopters wouldn't, couldn't, and shouldn't fly during my 20 years of development. The same people that poo-poo you before you are successful are often
the ones who say they were "with you all along" once you succeed!

You can't neccessarily base judgement of a technology's future merit on todays state of the art. Visionarys have to envision new concepts, materials, and designs. I personally believe that flapping wings have a big potential in personal flight.
Would a scaled up Park Hawk big enough to carry a man fly? Probably. Would it be a practical form of transportation? Probably not. Should man carrying ornithopters be built and test flown anyway?
Yes, I think so.

---Sean

BillB

Nov 27, 2002, 12:20 AM

I can invision personal ornithopters powered by fuel cells with a high energy density. Very little noise as compared with current helicopters and airplanes; almost silent like a sail plane landing at high speed. I also think that VTOL is possible with flapping flight. We have an advantage over birds in that we can shift our CG in-flight in any direction we want. Birds can't do this very well other than twisting their wings.

Sean- Do you think VTOL is possible with an aft intial CG location at take-off and then move the CG forward as you attempt to level out. It seems like this would be much easier to contol than a helicopter or other VTOL aircraft. It seems like after flying my ParkHawk that flapping wings act as a natural gyro stabalizer in flight.

I am designing a slide mechanism for my battery so I can use my Flap control to shift the battery CG fore and aft in flight.

andyUK

Nov 27, 2002, 12:22 PM

Hi Billb

Funny you mentioned the use of C-G as part of control.

I have tried to fly with different postions . This was mainly to slow it down so I could fly in a smaller space.

I thought that by moving the C G backwards and with a headwind, a Parkhawk would adopt a 30-40% angle of attack and almost hover. This dumb assumptions were made from very close look at slow motion real bird flight.

Bad move , bird was oncontrolable and went splat back and sideways. The problem being that you need a minimum forward speed for the tail to have any control and this speed needs to be quite high.

To do a variable C G would be a great idea but it will require a different method of control , say variable wing tensioning , etc .

As for full size ornithoptors , WHY ???? .

Energy effiency would be a awfull , and the future needs are the opposite.

The reason for model ornithopters is a personal challenge and logic not to be questioned.

Andy

Sean Kinkade

Nov 27, 2002, 12:46 PM

Andy,

Why make such assumptions about energy efficiency in a large ornithopter until there is empirical evidence to support it? I think the efficiency will be high for an ultralight flapping wing aircraft. Look at all man powered aircraft and the size of their propellers. They are huge geared down propellers because that is what is efficient. An ornithopter wing is in essence a gigantic linear propeller geared down to a point that would be impractical for a rotary propeller.

On a slow flying aircraft such as what a personal ultralight ornithopter would be, the greater the ratio of the air mass propeled to the air mass velocity, the greater the efficiency.
Big wings thrusting a large volume of air at a very low velocity WILL be efficient. Look at my SkyBird gas powered ornithopter for example. That thing weighs 4 pounds and flies on 1/3 throttle with a .12 cubic in. engine! With articulated wings the efficiency will be even greater too.

I say to all critics......"hide and watch". ( but you may have to stay hidden for a few years cause that project won't happen overnight.

:)

BillB

Nov 28, 2002, 10:04 PM

I'd like to put my name on the list for your new Articulated winged Park Hawk Please. I already have a ParkHawk, and a SlowHawk and I will purchase every model you come up with. I myself believe in spending my money where it rewards inovation not on cheaply imitated copies manufactured by high production rate toy companies with unimaginative money-grubing business tycroons with no integrity or character.

I have had no problems getting Hawks though JGRC.

KOROBELNIK

Nov 29, 2002, 01:08 AM

BillB,
It is funny,
I also already said this to S.KINKADE.
I put as you, an option on all the numerous models which are going to come.
Regards
R.Korobelnik

BillB

Nov 29, 2002, 04:20 AM

KOROBELNIK- Yes. I definitely agree...

Sean- Have you thought about using exsisting technology in Sailboat Sails and Carbon Fiber Masts that are already proven under the type of forces you would see in an a thopter that might be used for Wings on a full size Ornithopter. A sail is almost the right shape. Just need a little more top Roach area and you have half of an Ornithopter Wing. Some of the Carbon Fiber masts they have now are free standing and have streamlined shapes that are begging to be used in an ornithopter.

KOROBELNIK

Nov 29, 2002, 05:18 AM

Billb
There are certainly resemblances and I am certain that Sean already has his idea on it
Every small model creates, allows him(her) to move in the knowledge and subsidizes following project.
I believe that is missing a piece in your collection: THE SKYBIRD
Why not to buy now SKYBIRD if it exists there still?
Regards
R.Korobelnik:cool:

Sean Kinkade

Nov 29, 2002, 10:46 AM

BillB,

I hope you and everyone else in the forum who celebrates Thanksgiving had a good one.

I appreciate you and Roberts' sentiments and interest in having one of each of my new models. Consider your name on the list but don't expect the articulated wing any time soon. It most likely won't be on a Park Hawk when it does arrive, but will probably be on something a bit larger and whatever the model is, it will be a testbed and won't be for sale quickly like most of my other upcoming models. When I get to the point of test flying, it will be done in a private field and if successful I will then go to apply for patents, then I will post information on it. I have to do it this way now for obvious reasons.

I do have already what I believe is a workable articulated wing design with what I think is the proper phasing of the wing spar movement. This was a major mechanical challenge in itself but it still leaves the design and construction of a wing membrane or panel, and/or "feather" system that will integrate with the spar system. That will take a quantum leap in wing design and it may take a few years to perfect.
I have faith in myself to do this but the risk always exists that the added weight and complexity of an articulated wing will negate its aerodynamic benefits. Time will tell, and until I hire an employee to help with Park Hawk production I have very little time to engineer. I'm trying to find production help.

As for your question about sailboat sails, I don't know much about sailboat sails but I have seen the aerial stunts peformed by people on windsurfers jumping waves and catching some serious air time. If one windsurfer sail can hold a person aloft like that then two sails joined and flapping could probably fly a light weight person ( not me!) if the wing flapping mechanics were kept small and light enough. It would be interesting to see what a small engine coupled to some modified windsurfer sails could do.

---Sean

BillB

Nov 30, 2002, 03:22 PM

Thanks Sean for the update and the interesting take on Windsurfer sails. I've been thinking you could use a lightweight off-road motorcycle for its motor and wheels for landing gear. Some at only 170 Ibs. would make a great start as an Ornithopter frame with built-in motor and landing gear. Maybe just the frame, motor, front forks and wheel could be used.

I had also been reading about the biggest flying reptile fossils found have been the Quetzalcoatlus with a recorded fossil wing span of about 40' and weighed about what a person weighs. They theorized that this is probably the maximum possbile size and weight a flapping wing creature could have grown due to body size drag and muscle strength required to flap its wings. And even at this size the creature probably could barely take off under its own power and had to take off from cliffs or hills so they could take advantage of thermal and updraft to stay aloft. These creatures would have been great soarers but very poor flappers.

Do you think there are scaling problems with flapping machines that would carry a person?

After seeing these ParkHawks in action I don't believe there are any scaling problems since all you really need is a center wing cord section large enough to keep the weight aloft plus enough flapping traction to sustain the required airspeed.

Sean Kinkade

Nov 30, 2002, 05:44 PM

BillB,

I don't see any aerodynamic scaling problems at all. The only scaling issues I foresee is the structural strength and rigidity of the airframe and spars which I think can be obtained with carbon fiber composites.

I don't plan on going the motorcycle route when the time comes.
There are more reliable engines designed specifically for ultralight aircraft. Plus, you need a minimum of three wheels in your landing gear. The modern dirtbikes are awesome though. Who knows maybe one could be modified.

Sean

niek

Dec 01, 2002, 04:28 PM

Euuuh...
Beiing the tread starter, ain't we going far off topic now?

This has nothing to do anymore with the Cybird, of wich we still hear very little...

Sean Kinkade

Dec 01, 2002, 05:06 PM

Cy-who?

pascal

Dec 08, 2002, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by niek
Euuuh...
Beiing the tread starter, ain't we going far off topic now?

This has nothing to do anymore with the Cybird, of wich we still hear very little...

Well, well

I have flown the Cybird, is magific.. it flys so smooth and it climbs real good at full throttle.. i just love it.. 24 mins max so far on my new accu packs ( i charged those 1 times, so more effective power wil occur in following charges)

I laugh out Niek.. You cannot say a word of being oftopic.

The cybird is great, although im actualy don't think Neuros can offer real good custumer support. Be carefull doing business with them would be my wise advice.

For me the most important element has satisified.. i own a cybird.

Theo coenen

Dec 12, 2002, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by pascal
I recieved my sample of the cybird and can tell you this:

- High quality materials are used to build up the product and finish it off
- The contents of the package is very nice and over complete..
- The Cybird is worth its money as for this moment no price can be given yet.

I dont own the Parkhawk but the cybird is has more body, its neater to the eye and it flyes for up to 20 minutes!! (can you say that about the parkhawk, guess not)

:) im very happy with it.

I cant give any more information at this point.

At www.modelbouwforum.nl you claim you have flown this bird. where is that report that you would create for everybody. And why did you post it on the biggest and best forum of The Netherlands and not on youres like you told everybody. Or is this just to show off to Niek, Joost and me. Well it wont work that way. And Also where is youre Ornithopter forum that we created on youre forum this was public information from some people that where charing information about creating there own Ornithopter and you just removed it. Or did someone order you to do this. Is that the reason that you tell us to be carefull by doing business with Neuros.