Thumbs only or thumbs and fingers??? [Archive]

Andy Beetz

Sep 27, 2005, 05:11 PM

Steve R

Sep 27, 2005, 11:11 PM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:bmnij1dtk6853igmed7p05goe4s95o12lm@4ax.com...
> Simple question.. Thumbs only or thumbs and fingers to twiddle the
> sticks??
>
> I've only ever used my thumbs on the sticks but I've seen a few videos
> of pilots "pinching" the sticks between their thumbs and index
> fingers..
>
> For giggles I tried that method on the sim and couldn't even hover.
> Obviously something I'd need to learn but the question began nagging
> at me.. Which method is inherently "better" and would it be worth it
> to learn the thumb/finger method?
>

This is a very common question. There are those who seem to go out of their
way to press their opinion that the "only" way to go is thumbs and fingers.
To that, I've always said, "B*** S***!"

The first time I "ever" held a transmitter, I put my thumbs on top of the
sticks and that's how I moved them around. When I finally built my first
model (as 60 size helicopter), I learned to fly it, thumbs only. It's what
was, and is, natural "for ME!!"

Like you, I tried using the thumb and finger method and almost rolled the
model into a ball. I was flying the real thing at the time. Sim's didn't
exist back then. If you've already learned "thumbs only" and are
comfortable with that, then don't bother trying to change and don't let
anyone "guilt" you into trying to change. If you're more comfortable using
both thumbs and fingers then more power to you, that's how you should fly.
My best flying buddy used to fly what I'd call a hybrid mode. He used thumb
only on one stick and thumb and finger on the other. He eventually
converted to thumb and finger on both sides and it works for him now. It
also took him between 4 to 6 months to get comfortable with it. For me,
it's just not worth the trouble.

Bottom line is, neither method is "inherently better" than the other. It's
all up to what the individual is more comfortable with. Some fly mode 1,
some fly mode 2, some fly (or used to anyway) single stick. One of the best
pilots in the world, Curtis Youngblood, can fly mode 2 and single stick with
what appears to be equal ease. I imagine that he could fly mode 1 as well
but I've never seen him fly that mode before. He does admit that he's more
comfortable with single stick because that's what he learned on. These
days, he's flying a mode 2/single stick hybrid design. Throttle is on the
left stick and a single stick (ail, ele, and rud in one) is on the right
side. It's an adaptation he makes to his personal transmitters and has
learned to live with because JR (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't
make a single stick radio any more.

Fly the way that works best for you and Fly Safe,
Steve R.

hozr

Sep 28, 2005, 03:11 AM

I am a huge noob to helis..in fact I am still in a sim and I dont forsee
myself wasting any money on a high powered meteor (at least in my hands lol)
any time soon.

I do think you are right about muscle memory. I grew up playing video games.
Nintendo and such. My whole age group did. Our thumbs are our interface with
the world. I dont know what I am "supposed" to do about holding the radio.
But It feels comfortable and natural to use my thumbs on top of the sticks.

Steve R

Sep 28, 2005, 03:11 AM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:96ijj1h4gof5t19t242n04hfph3e4ak5je@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:34:02 GMT, "Steve R"
> <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is a very common question. There are those who seem to go out of
>>their
>>way to press their opinion that the "only" way to go is thumbs and
>>fingers.
>>To that, I've always said, "B*** S***!"
>
> Such language!!
>

Yeah, well, if you knew the number of times I've had some yahoo come up to
me and tell me I didn't know squat because I flew thumbs only, you'd
understand! ;-)

> A bit more precise using thumbs only, but I'll bet
> that's due to muscle memory more than anything.
>

I'd hadn't looked at it that way before but you're probably right. When I
tried the thumb and finger configuration, it felt like my finger was
competing with the thumb and it was a stalemate, which ultimately meant that
the helicopter was going to be the looser in short order. Do you know how
difficult it is to let go of the transmitter in a tight spot and then "find"
those darn sticks again with just the end of your thumbs before it hit's the
ground? :-O

I did it though! :-D

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Sep 28, 2005, 03:11 AM

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:30:05 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>Yeah, well, if you knew the number of times I've had some yahoo come up to
>me and tell me I didn't know squat because I flew thumbs only, you'd
>understand! ;-)

hehe.. I get similar things at work all the time. "You should do it
this way because [insert dumbass reason here]..." 99% of the time my
way is much better and results in a much better product...

>> A bit more precise using thumbs only, but I'll bet
>> that's due to muscle memory more than anything.
>>
>
>I'd hadn't looked at it that way before but you're probably right. When I
>tried the thumb and finger configuration, it felt like my finger was
>competing with the thumb and it was a stalemate, which ultimately meant that
>the helicopter was going to be the looser in short order. Do you know how
>difficult it is to let go of the transmitter in a tight spot and then "find"
>those darn sticks again with just the end of your thumbs before it hit's the
>ground? :-O

Yeah, it just feels "odd" to me. Muscle memory really comes into play
flying the real thing too. Did about 20 autos today in an R22 and I
really didn't think about it much. Sort of like hovering. I just
don't think about it in any conscious way anymore. It just sort of
happens.

Just got back from a 2 hour night flight (I'm now current for nights
again) and am gonna fire up the sim and try the nose in hover again.
Funny, I can do hover flips etc on the sime but can't nose in hover to
save my life.. hehehe'

>I did it though! :-D

Everyone gets lucky once in a while.. hehehe

Steve R

Sep 28, 2005, 03:11 AM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:2r2kj1pq66ael3bvqf874psc8ft7vuhts0@4ax.com...
> Just got back from a 2 hour night flight (I'm now current for nights
> again) and am gonna fire up the sim and try the nose in hover again.
> Funny, I can do hover flips etc on the sime but can't nose in hover to
> save my life.. hehehe'
>

I understand! I had such a mental block against nose-in hovers. Took me
forever to get over it. I finally put the training gear back on and started
from the ground up. 1st tank of fuel, it was "Katy bar the door!!!!" 2nd
tank of fuel was so-so?? 3rd tank of fuel, someone flipped the light
switch!

Ka-Ching! And I haven't looked back since! Keep at it, you'll get it!
Just like those autos in the R22! :-D

>
>>I did it though! :-D
>
> Everyone gets lucky once in a while.. hehehe

You betchya! I'll take em every time I can get em! Can we say, "FREE
helicopter?" ;-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

R A

Sep 28, 2005, 07:11 AM

My bit of input. I was trying to learn to hover with the thumbs only but
never got there, started to use thumb and finger with a hoverfly and
suddenly like Steve it just worked for me, I seemed to have faster precise
control. I haven't yet attempted a serious attack on nose in.

Rob

"Steve R" <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:wVo_e.38749$w46.5380@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>
> "The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
> message news:2r2kj1pq66ael3bvqf874psc8ft7vuhts0@4ax.com...
>> Just got back from a 2 hour night flight (I'm now current for nights
>> again) and am gonna fire up the sim and try the nose in hover again.
>> Funny, I can do hover flips etc on the sime but can't nose in hover to
>> save my life.. hehehe'
>>
>
> I understand! I had such a mental block against nose-in hovers. Took me
> forever to get over it. I finally put the training gear back on and
> started from the ground up. 1st tank of fuel, it was "Katy bar the
> door!!!!" 2nd tank of fuel was so-so?? 3rd tank of fuel, someone flipped
> the light switch!
>
> Ka-Ching! And I haven't looked back since! Keep at it, you'll get it!
> Just like those autos in the R22! :-D
>
>>
>>>I did it though! :-D
>>
>> Everyone gets lucky once in a while.. hehehe
>
> You betchya! I'll take em every time I can get em! Can we say, "FREE
> helicopter?" ;-)
>
> Fly Safe,
> Steve R.
>

G MAN

Sep 28, 2005, 11:11 AM

I can fly either way. Thumbs is quicker response,and thumbs and fore
finger is a little more precise. if i were to learn only one way it
would be thumbs only,you can still be fairly precise with thumbs only
with practice.

John Privett

Sep 28, 2005, 09:11 PM

R A wrote:
> My bit of input. I was trying to learn to hover with the thumbs only
> but never got there, started to use thumb and finger with a hoverfly
> and suddenly like Steve it just worked for me, I seemed to have
> faster precise control. I haven't yet attempted a serious attack on
> nose in.

I'm mainly a fixed-wing flyer and switched from thumbs to thumb and finger a
few years ago. I *believe* it gives me a little more precise control, but I
wouldn't try and force anybody to fly that way if they didn't want to. It
certainly felt a little strange for a week or two until I got used to it.

As for nose-in hovering, it's fine on the sim. But in "real life" I can
hover tail-in or sideways-on without a problem. Slightly nose-in from
sideways, still no problem. But about half-way from sideways to fully
nose-in and it scares the **** out of me! :-)

--
John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
to read any e-mailed reply!

Steve R

Sep 29, 2005, 01:11 AM

"John Privett" <nojunkthanks@flyrc.org.uk> wrote in message
news:433b3005$0$73605$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
>
> As for nose-in hovering, it's fine on the sim. But in "real life" I can
> hover tail-in or sideways-on without a problem. Slightly nose-in from
> sideways, still no problem. But about half-way from sideways to fully
> nose-in and it scares the **** out of me! :-)
>
> --
> John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.

Yup! That's it exactly. I had the same problem you're talking about John.
When the model is about 45 degrees from full nose-in, you're flying in a
"never-never land" where the brain can't seem to decide whether or not to
make the switch from what's still essentially a tail-in orientation to a
nose-in one. First you learn tail-in orientations, then nose-in. "Then"
you have to learn to transition between the two! ;-)

I could hover tail-in (obviously), and like you, could go 90 degrees either
way or maybe a little more. I could also hover nose-in, even take off and
land from that orientation but put the nose 45 degrees from nose-in and all
hell would break loose. What I did to get round it was to start a slow
pirouette and keep the hover as stable as possible. When I hit that 45
degree from nose-in point and would start to feel myself loosing it, I'd
essentially let go of the cyclic but keep the turn going. The model would
simply continue on and come to a pure nose-in position and my brain would
snap back into recognition of the situation and I'd be fine. The model
might drift off point a little for the brief time I wasn't making
corrections with the cyclic but that was Ok. Once I got used to doing this,
I finally relaxed enough to start to see and feel the corrections needed
when transitioning between the 90 degree point and straight nose-in. Now I
can make cyclic corrections all the way around the pirouette without having
to think about it.

Hang in there. All it takes is practice! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

John Privett

Oct 01, 2005, 11:11 AM

Steve R wrote:
>
> Yup! That's it exactly. I had the same problem you're talking about
> John. When the model is about 45 degrees from full nose-in, you're
> flying in a "never-never land" where the brain can't seem to decide
> whether or not to make the switch from what's still essentially a
> tail-in orientation to a nose-in one. First you learn tail-in
> orientations, then nose-in. "Then" you have to learn to transition
> between the two! ;-)

<more detail snipped>

> Hang in there. All it takes is practice! :-)
>

That makes a lot of sense. I've never got to the point on the real heli of
being totally nose-in. It hadn't occurred to me that it was the transition
between the two rather than just being nose-in that was causing the problem.
If I nose-in on the sim I either take off nose-in or turn quickly so the
transition is very brief. In real life I do it rather more cautiously and
chicken-out when the uncomfortable 45 degree stage is reached! Perhaps I
should practice the transition on the sim to get used to it... Or maybe
take a deep breath and just take off nose-in in "real life."
--
John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
to read any e-mailed reply!

Steve R

Oct 01, 2005, 11:11 AM

"John Privett" <nojunkthanks@flyrc.org.uk> wrote in message
news:433e9252$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Steve R wrote:
>>
>> Yup! That's it exactly. I had the same problem you're talking about
>> John. When the model is about 45 degrees from full nose-in, you're
>> flying in a "never-never land" where the brain can't seem to decide
>> whether or not to make the switch from what's still essentially a
>> tail-in orientation to a nose-in one. First you learn tail-in
>> orientations, then nose-in. "Then" you have to learn to transition
>> between the two! ;-)
>
> <more detail snipped>
>
>> Hang in there. All it takes is practice! :-)
>>
>
> That makes a lot of sense. I've never got to the point on the real heli
> of being totally nose-in. It hadn't occurred to me that it was the
> transition between the two rather than just being nose-in that was causing
> the problem. If I nose-in on the sim I either take off nose-in or turn
> quickly so the transition is very brief. In real life I do it rather more
> cautiously and chicken-out when the uncomfortable 45 degree stage is
> reached! Perhaps I should practice the transition on the sim to get used
> to it... Or maybe take a deep breath and just take off nose-in in "real
> life."
> --
> John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.

Let us know how it goes John! I get the impression that you're probably
pretty close. If you're like me, you'll scare yourself a couple of times
but the ol brain will finally click in. After that, you'll be asking
yourself what the big deal was!

Good luck & Fly Safe,
Steve R.

John Privett

Oct 02, 2005, 11:11 AM

Steve R wrote:
>
> Let us know how it goes John! I get the impression that you're
> probably pretty close. If you're like me, you'll scare yourself a
> couple of times but the ol brain will finally click in. After that,
> you'll be asking yourself what the big deal was!

Well I gave it a go this morning. I put the training gear back on and tried
hovering starting from nose-in. The heli is just a little electric (Zoom
clone) and as was a bit breezy outdoors so I flew it in the garage. Well,
it was a bit of a roller-coaster ride at times ;-) but I think I'm getting
there gradually...

At least I've convinced myself that it's *possible* to hover it nose in!
Unfortunately a fractured wire on the motor brought flying to an abrupt halt
and stripped the tail gear (again), but no other damage. Back to the sim
for more practice whilst contemplating a .30 sized i/c heli!
--
John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
to read any e-mailed reply!

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Oct 02, 2005, 01:11 PM

On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:35:24 +0100, "John Privett"
<nojunkthanks@flyrc.org.uk> wrote:

>Steve R wrote:
>>
>> Let us know how it goes John! I get the impression that you're
>> probably pretty close. If you're like me, you'll scare yourself a
>> couple of times but the ol brain will finally click in. After that,
>> you'll be asking yourself what the big deal was!
>
>Well I gave it a go this morning. I put the training gear back on and tried
>hovering starting from nose-in. The heli is just a little electric (Zoom
>clone) and as was a bit breezy outdoors so I flew it in the garage. Well,
>it was a bit of a roller-coaster ride at times ;-) but I think I'm getting
>there gradually...
>
>At least I've convinced myself that it's *possible* to hover it nose in!
>Unfortunately a fractured wire on the motor brought flying to an abrupt halt
>and stripped the tail gear (again), but no other damage. Back to the sim
>for more practice whilst contemplating a .30 sized i/c heli!

hehe, You sound like you're having about as much success as I am. I
did some nose-in work for about an hour on the sim last night. Best
effort was about 90 seconds of reasonably stable hover before it all
went to hell. Sure does tax my brain thinking "backwards".. ehehe

Steve R

Oct 02, 2005, 11:11 PM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:eb30k1p4c12uduobr7hscg9ldtvhkka8ji@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 14:35:24 +0100, "John Privett"
> <nojunkthanks@flyrc.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Steve R wrote:
>>>
>>> Let us know how it goes John! I get the impression that you're
>>> probably pretty close. If you're like me, you'll scare yourself a
>>> couple of times but the ol brain will finally click in. After that,
>>> you'll be asking yourself what the big deal was!
>>
>>Well I gave it a go this morning. I put the training gear back on and
>>tried
>>hovering starting from nose-in. The heli is just a little electric (Zoom
>>clone) and as was a bit breezy outdoors so I flew it in the garage. Well,
>>it was a bit of a roller-coaster ride at times ;-) but I think I'm getting
>>there gradually...
>>
>>At least I've convinced myself that it's *possible* to hover it nose in!
>>Unfortunately a fractured wire on the motor brought flying to an abrupt
>>halt
>>and stripped the tail gear (again), but no other damage. Back to the sim
>>for more practice whilst contemplating a .30 sized i/c heli!
>
> hehe, You sound like you're having about as much success as I am. I
> did some nose-in work for about an hour on the sim last night. Best
> effort was about 90 seconds of reasonably stable hover before it all
> went to hell. Sure does tax my brain thinking "backwards".. ehehe

FWIW guys, I'm in the same boat, just a little higher up the ladder. I've
finally got a 3D machine built for myself. It's Freya X-Spec with YS91 and
all digital servos. I'm trying to learn upright/backward flight as well as
inverted backward and forwards flight. Inverted forwards is not really a
big deal. I've been going that to one degree or another for some time now.
I'm just sustaining it longer. I also want to get comfortable making normal
(yeah, right! ;-) ) approaches to hover while in inverted flight. I'm
getting there but I'm still too chicken to bring it down very low just yet.
My base reflexes aren't quite there yet. I'm still having to think about it
too much! Upright and backwards was "really" giving me fits but I've been
working that on the sim the most lately and I've actually made a number of
figure 8 laps across the field yesterday with no excessive drama involved.
Again, it's at a nice safe altitude but it went better than I expected.
Backwards inverted? "That's" eating my lunch and really, it seems like it
ought to be one of the easier modes to fly. Elevator reverts to normal.
Aileron and rudder are reversed but at least they go in the same direction.
I can do it on the sim but get seriously disoriented when I've tried it on
the real thing. I can't seem to stay in contact with roll attitude on the
model when flying the real thing. I'll get there though!

Also, this is the first machine I've ever put digital servos on anything
other than the tail. MAN, what a difference. I hadn't realized how much my
throttle thumb jumps when I'm nervous. The analog servo can't keep up so
I've never noticed it. The digital's follow every movement! I don't see it
in the air but when I come back down to relax in a hover for a while, it can
get very obvious! ;-)

Hang in there & so will I!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Oct 03, 2005, 01:11 AM

On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 23:01:50 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>FWIW guys, I'm in the same boat, just a little higher up the ladder.

A little?? My heart rate goes to about 150bpm in just slow forward
flight - and I've yet to haul the Raptor out yet! The poor Blade is
getting flogged pretty regularly after work and the sim gets a turn
once the sun goes down. Wish I could plug in my good radio to G2 but
I didn't get the Interlink and I'm too cheap to buy one. heheh

>I've
>finally got a 3D machine built for myself. It's Freya X-Spec with YS91 and
>all digital servos. I'm trying to learn upright/backward flight as well as
>inverted backward and forwards flight. Inverted forwards is not really a
>big deal. I've been going that to one degree or another for some time now.
>I'm just sustaining it longer. I also want to get comfortable making normal
>(yeah, right! ;-) ) approaches to hover while in inverted flight. I'm
>getting there but I'm still too chicken to bring it down very low just yet.
>My base reflexes aren't quite there yet. I'm still having to think about it
>too much!

On the sim I don't have too much problem with the inverted bit in a
high hover, but I'm not even REMOTELY thinking about trying it on the
real thing..

>Upright and backwards was "really" giving me fits but I've been
>working that on the sim the most lately and I've actually made a number of
>figure 8 laps across the field yesterday with no excessive drama involved.
>Again, it's at a nice safe altitude but it went better than I expected.
>Backwards inverted? "That's" eating my lunch and really, it seems like it
>ought to be one of the easier modes to fly. Elevator reverts to normal.
>Aileron and rudder are reversed but at least they go in the same direction.
>I can do it on the sim but get seriously disoriented when I've tried it on
>the real thing. I can't seem to stay in contact with roll attitude on the
>model when flying the real thing. I'll get there though!

The learning curve with these things is pretty much vertical.. Still
it's a challenge I'm enjoying - even if my wallet isn't.

>Also, this is the first machine I've ever put digital servos on anything
>other than the tail. MAN, what a difference. I hadn't realized how much my
>throttle thumb jumps when I'm nervous. The analog servo can't keep up so
>I've never noticed it. The digital's follow every movement! I don't see it
>in the air but when I come back down to relax in a hover for a while, it can
>get very obvious! ;-)

Great. The Raptor has all digital servos in it... Just gotta get the
thing bolted to my stand and fire it up and get the engine dialed in.
With studying, work and flying, I just don't have time... Anyone got
a day extender I can borrow for a couple years?? eheheh

John Privett

Oct 05, 2005, 11:11 PM

Steve R wrote:
>
> FWIW guys, I'm in the same boat, just a little higher up the ladder. I've
> finally got a 3D machine built for myself. It's Freya X-Spec
> with YS91 and all digital servos. I'm trying to learn
> upright/backward flight as well as inverted backward and forwards
> flight. Inverted forwards is not really a big deal. I've been going
> that to one degree or another for some time now. I'm just sustaining
> it longer. I also want to get comfortable making normal (yeah,
> right! ;-) ) approaches to hover while in inverted flight. I'm
> getting there but I'm still too chicken to bring it down very low
> just yet. My base reflexes aren't quite there yet. I'm still having
> to think about it too much! Upright and backwards was "really"
> giving me fits but I've been working that on the sim the most lately
> and I've actually made a number of figure 8 laps across the field
> yesterday with no excessive drama involved. Again, it's at a nice
> safe altitude but it went better than I expected. Backwards inverted?
> "That's" eating my lunch and really, it seems like it ought to be one
> of the easier modes to fly. Elevator reverts to normal. Aileron and
> rudder are reversed but at least they go in the same direction. I can
> do it on the sim but get seriously disoriented when I've tried it on
> the real thing. I can't seem to stay in contact with roll attitude
> on the model when flying the real thing. I'll get there though!

Ouch, my brain hurts just thinking about the various combinations of
crossed-over controls!

At least with my fixed-wing planes I didn't (usually!) have to worry about
control inputs when flying backwards ;-)

--
John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
to read any e-mailed reply!

Steve R

Oct 06, 2005, 11:11 AM

"John Privett" <nojunkthanks@flyrc.org.uk> wrote in message
news:43446312$0$49807$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> Steve R wrote:
>>
>> FWIW guys, I'm in the same boat, just a little higher up the ladder. I've
>> finally got a 3D machine built for myself. It's Freya X-Spec
>> with YS91 and all digital servos. I'm trying to learn
>> upright/backward flight as well as inverted backward and forwards
>> flight. Inverted forwards is not really a big deal. I've been going
>> that to one degree or another for some time now. I'm just sustaining
>> it longer. I also want to get comfortable making normal (yeah,
>> right! ;-) ) approaches to hover while in inverted flight. I'm
>> getting there but I'm still too chicken to bring it down very low
>> just yet. My base reflexes aren't quite there yet. I'm still having
>> to think about it too much! Upright and backwards was "really"
>> giving me fits but I've been working that on the sim the most lately
>> and I've actually made a number of figure 8 laps across the field
>> yesterday with no excessive drama involved. Again, it's at a nice
>> safe altitude but it went better than I expected. Backwards inverted?
>> "That's" eating my lunch and really, it seems like it ought to be one
>> of the easier modes to fly. Elevator reverts to normal. Aileron and
>> rudder are reversed but at least they go in the same direction. I can
>> do it on the sim but get seriously disoriented when I've tried it on
>> the real thing. I can't seem to stay in contact with roll attitude
>> on the model when flying the real thing. I'll get there though!
>
> Ouch, my brain hurts just thinking about the various combinations of
> crossed-over controls!
>
> At least with my fixed-wing planes I didn't (usually!) have to worry about
> control inputs when flying backwards ;-)
>
> --
> John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.

It does get interesting, John! My problem at this point is that I'm still
thinking about it too much. I'm not reliably making the mental transitions
from one flight mode to the next. Some days I do real good on the sim and
other days I don't make it from one side of the field to the other without
rolling it into a ball. Doing any of this with the real thing brings on
major heart palpitations but I do it up high and start off slowly. The
altitude is a double edged sword though. If I'm high enough to be 95%
confident that I can save a major screw up, I'm also so high that it's hard
to see the model well enough to know what it's doing. I'm getting there
though! ;-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

David Lodge

Oct 06, 2005, 11:11 AM

> It does get interesting, John! My problem at this point is that I'm still
> thinking about it too much. I'm not reliably making the mental transitions
> from one flight mode to the next. Some days I do real good on the sim and
> other days I don't make it from one side of the field to the other without
> rolling it into a ball. Doing any of this with the real thing brings on
> major heart palpitations but I do it up high and start off slowly. The
> altitude is a double edged sword though. If I'm high enough to be 95%
> confident that I can save a major screw up, I'm also so high that it's hard
> to see the model well enough to know what it's doing. I'm getting there
> though! ;-)

You guys appear to be at the same level as me...I was always less
confident with nose in even when I could do invert and inverted
nose-in. That was until I started trying backwards upright flying and
now nose in is no longer a problem. Guess its a question of trying
something several rungs harder which makes previous "hard" manoeuvres
easier. Stick time is the answer, there are no short cuts. Hopefully
got a weekend of flying in front of me at Charmouth, if the rain keeps
off on Saturday!

Steve R

Oct 06, 2005, 01:11 PM

"David Lodge" <deja@cherrybank.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1128611112.292017.71110@g44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

>
> You guys appear to be at the same level as me...I was always less
> confident with nose in even when I could do invert and inverted
> nose-in. That was until I started trying backwards upright flying and
> now nose in is no longer a problem. Guess its a question of trying
> something several rungs harder which makes previous "hard" manoeuvres
> easier. Stick time is the answer, there are no short cuts. Hopefully
> got a weekend of flying in front of me at Charmouth, if the rain keeps
> off on Saturday!
>

Absolutely right! There's simply no substitute for burning fuel.
Simulators are a great help but they're not the real thing. I'm hanging in
there and it "is" getting better, albeit, sslloowwllyy! ;-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Oct 07, 2005, 11:11 AM

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:04:28 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>Absolutely right! There's simply no substitute for burning fuel.
>Simulators are a great help but they're not the real thing. I'm hanging in
>there and it "is" getting better, albeit, sslloowwllyy! ;-)

Getting electrons flowing works as well too. This little Blade really
keeps me on my toes with anything over a SLIGHT breeze.. Wish I could
get some time to haul the Raptor to the local schoolyard.. Damned
kids... damned work.. damned flying... damned studying.. damned
life!!! hehehe

Beav

Oct 16, 2005, 09:11 PM

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Oct 17, 2005, 01:11 PM

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:39:07 +0100, "Beav"
<beavis.original@ntlwoxoorld.com> wrote:

>I'm late in on this one Kev, but my view is simple. Whihever feels best. No
>"one way" is best for all, or we'd all have single stick transmitters and be
>flying the blades off our heli's like Youngblood does.

Hey, I fly the blades off my heli about once a week....

......usually within 10 seconds of losing orientation. :)

>I started out using thumbs, but when I got a transmitter tray and learned
>how to use it, the fingers and thumb method proved to be better for me, so
>that's how I've flown ever since. A light grip (barely touching the sticks
>actually) makes a word of difference, but you DO need a tray to use the
>fingers and thumb method. Well I think so anyway:-)

I've tried time and again to go to finger/thumb, but just can't seem
to find a groove with it.. Oh well.. I haven't crashed the Blade in
over a week so I must be doing ok with the thumbs only.

David Lodge

Oct 17, 2005, 05:11 PM

Beav wrote:
> A light grip (barely touching the sticks
> actually) makes a word of difference, but you DO need a tray to use the
> fingers and thumb method. Well I think so anyway:-)

Only if you're using one of those crappy JR trannies, Futaba tx
balances nicely on the neck strap ;-)

Seriously tho...I can only control my RC car using thumbs, and can only
control my helis using the pinch method - guess that goes to show that
you get used to a certain feel.

I changed my heli grip some while back still using the pinch grips but
went from holding my tranny firmly with my small fingers round the
back, to placing my hands more on the top round the gimbles. It took
some time to get used to the new method, but I found that because my
hand was less strained trying to grip the tranny, I have more control
over the sticks.

Kevin G.

Jan 25, 2006, 09:11 PM

I learned to hover nose in before I did tail in. I just thought of is as
comming in for a landing on a fixed wing, but the approach never stops. Just
tip the stick to the side you want to raise. My heli sure looks a lot nicer
from the front!
I prefer thumbs and fingers.

"John Privett" <nojunkthanks@flyrc.org.uk> wrote in message
news:433e9252$0$73588$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader03.plus.net...
> Steve R wrote:
> >
> > Yup! That's it exactly. I had the same problem you're talking about
> > John. When the model is about 45 degrees from full nose-in, you're
> > flying in a "never-never land" where the brain can't seem to decide
> > whether or not to make the switch from what's still essentially a
> > tail-in orientation to a nose-in one. First you learn tail-in
> > orientations, then nose-in. "Then" you have to learn to transition
> > between the two! ;-)
>
> <more detail snipped>
>
> > Hang in there. All it takes is practice! :-)
> >
>
> That makes a lot of sense. I've never got to the point on the real heli
of
> being totally nose-in. It hadn't occurred to me that it was the
transition
> between the two rather than just being nose-in that was causing the
problem.
> If I nose-in on the sim I either take off nose-in or turn quickly so the
> transition is very brief. In real life I do it rather more cautiously and
> chicken-out when the uncomfortable 45 degree stage is reached! Perhaps I
> should practice the transition on the sim to get used to it... Or maybe
> take a deep breath and just take off nose-in in "real life."
> --
> John P. - who flies on Epsom Downs, UK.
> http://www.flyrc.org.uk/
> I'm sick of spam, so replace 'nojunkthanks' with 'john' if you want me
> to read any e-mailed reply!
>
>

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Jan 27, 2006, 01:11 PM

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:49:21 GMT, "Kevin G."
<gnepNojunkNospam@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I learned to hover nose in before I did tail in. I just thought of is as
>comming in for a landing on a fixed wing, but the approach never stops. Just
>tip the stick to the side you want to raise. My heli sure looks a lot nicer
>from the front!
> I prefer thumbs and fingers.

I'm fine with nose-in as long as the helicopter is moving - doesn't
matter if it's 10 mph or .001mph.. If it's moving, I'm ok. As soon
as it stop my brain goes "click" and short circuits my thumbs...

Steve R

Jan 27, 2006, 03:11 PM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:gvikt1hd1u0u77fgn1javrkpv2v1f6qhnk@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:49:21 GMT, "Kevin G."
> <gnepNojunkNospam@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I learned to hover nose in before I did tail in. I just thought of is
>> as
>>comming in for a landing on a fixed wing, but the approach never stops.
>>Just
>>tip the stick to the side you want to raise. My heli sure looks a lot
>>nicer
>>from the front!
>> I prefer thumbs and fingers.
>
> I'm fine with nose-in as long as the helicopter is moving - doesn't
> matter if it's 10 mph or .001mph.. If it's moving, I'm ok. As soon
> as it stop my brain goes "click" and short circuits my thumbs...

Understood! We've had this conversation before, I think.

Just put the training gear back on it, set it on the ground and walk around
front. Learn to take off and land nose-in with the training gear. If
you're like me, and I suspect that you're very close to where I was when I
used this technique to learn the nose-in hover, you'll be surprised at how
quickly you get over that "OH MY GOD, IT'S IN A NOSE-IN HOVER!!!!!" freeze
up. ;-)

It took me just under three tanks of fuel. It might take you more, it might
take you less, but after that, it will be a definite "what's the big deal?"
:-D

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Jan 27, 2006, 07:11 PM

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:05:06 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>Understood! We've had this conversation before, I think.

Yep, 'bout a month ago.

>Just put the training gear back on it, set it on the ground and walk around
>front. Learn to take off and land nose-in with the training gear. If
>you're like me, and I suspect that you're very close to where I was when I
>used this technique to learn the nose-in hover, you'll be surprised at how
>quickly you get over that "OH MY GOD, IT'S IN A NOSE-IN HOVER!!!!!" freeze
>up. ;-)

Training gear is for wussies. :) I'll just fire up the sim and
try... maybe. ehehe

>It took me just under three tanks of fuel. It might take you more, it might
>take you less, but after that, it will be a definite "what's the big deal?"
>:-D

I think I'm up to about 3 dozen virtual tanks.. I get frustrated
after a minute or so and then shoot off into forward flight and try
not to crash while I fly my version of <ahem> 3D. :)

Steve R

Jan 27, 2006, 11:11 PM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:m7blt15479qe96q7v6rvfvn8r5ab5cbt2r@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:05:06 GMT, "Steve R"
> <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Understood! We've had this conversation before, I think.
>
> Yep, 'bout a month ago.
>

Thought so! :-)

>>Just put the training gear back on it, set it on the ground and walk
>>around
>>front. Learn to take off and land nose-in with the training gear. If
>>you're like me, and I suspect that you're very close to where I was when I
>>used this technique to learn the nose-in hover, you'll be surprised at how
>>quickly you get over that "OH MY GOD, IT'S IN A NOSE-IN HOVER!!!!!" freeze
>>up. ;-)
>
> Training gear is for wussies. :) I'll just fire up the sim and
> try... maybe. ehehe
>

Bull sh*t. The sim is great, don't get me wrong, but it's NOT the real
thing. I tried and tried and tried to learn that nose-in trick at altitude
for almost a year and just couldn't get it. Decent sims weren't around in
those days. Just 2.5 tanks of fuel with the training gear and I was there.
It's your decision though.

>>It took me just under three tanks of fuel. It might take you more, it
>>might
>>take you less, but after that, it will be a definite "what's the big
>>deal?"
>>:-D
>
> I think I'm up to about 3 dozen virtual tanks.. I get frustrated
> after a minute or so and then shoot off into forward flight and try
> not to crash while I fly my version of <ahem> 3D. :)
>

Therein lies the problem with sims. It's too easy to break off into
unproductive stuff. You won't do that with the real thing so you'll
probably learn more to boot! Just swallow your pride and go dig up the
training gear. I'd bet a few tanks of fuel in that mode and you'll be a lot
closer to a true nose-in hover.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

PS: If it doesn't work, you can always go back to what you've been doing.
Just be sure to keep the model low so as to minimize the risks. Good luck!

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Jan 28, 2006, 05:11 AM

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 02:54:50 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>> Training gear is for wussies. :) I'll just fire up the sim and
>> try... maybe. ehehe
>>
>
>Bull sh*t. The sim is great, don't get me wrong, but it's NOT the real
>thing. I tried and tried and tried to learn that nose-in trick at altitude
>for almost a year and just couldn't get it. Decent sims weren't around in
>those days. Just 2.5 tanks of fuel with the training gear and I was there.
>It's your decision though.

hehe, you sound like Beav.. Yeah, I know sim time doesn't equate to
burning fuel (or electrons) Unfortunately, actually getting out and
flying is tough with my schedule. Usually it's late at night (like
now) that I find an hour or so to "piss away" but usually end up
breaking out my full scale books to study (Gotta knock out two more
writtens in the next couple weeks.)

>> I think I'm up to about 3 dozen virtual tanks.. I get frustrated
>> after a minute or so and then shoot off into forward flight and try
>> not to crash while I fly my version of <ahem> 3D. :)
>>
>
>Therein lies the problem with sims. It's too easy to break off into
>unproductive stuff. You won't do that with the real thing so you'll
>probably learn more to boot! Just swallow your pride and go dig up the
>training gear. I'd bet a few tanks of fuel in that mode and you'll be a lot
>closer to a true nose-in hover.

Actually, I try a lot of the time to be very precise in what I'm doing
on the sim - both fixed wing and heli. I'm pretty sure that if I ever
lose an engine or a tail rotor, I'll be able to successfully auto the
ship down (so long as it's upright!) I've also made pretty good
strides in inerted flight although to date my only real inverted
flight has been a couple loops with the Blade.

One thing that helped with the fixed wing (and I don't know why I
haven't tried it with the nose-in stuff) is setting the time to 1/4 or
1/2 speed. It allowed me to think about control inputs before I
actually needed them. Almost got rolling circles down at full speed
thanks to that nifty feature.

>PS: If it doesn't work, you can always go back to what you've been doing.
>Just be sure to keep the model low so as to minimize the risks. Good luck!

I just need to get out and fly for real. Kids, work, school, honey-do
projects.. I'm amazed I find time to eat. :)

Steve R

Jan 29, 2006, 11:11 AM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:nf5mt1lmr6v4eqhgb957ctrdou7379dup7@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 02:54:50 GMT, "Steve R"
> <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Training gear is for wussies. :) I'll just fire up the sim and
>>> try... maybe. ehehe
>>>
>>
>>Bull sh*t. The sim is great, don't get me wrong, but it's NOT the real
>>thing. I tried and tried and tried to learn that nose-in trick at
>>altitude
>>for almost a year and just couldn't get it. Decent sims weren't around in
>>those days. Just 2.5 tanks of fuel with the training gear and I was
>>there.
>>It's your decision though.
>
> hehe, you sound like Beav..

Why, thank you! That's the nicest thing anyones said to me in a while.
Hmmm, that's a sad thought, isn't it? ;-)

>
>>Therein lies the problem with sims. It's too easy to break off into
>>unproductive stuff.
>
> Actually, I try a lot of the time to be very precise in what I'm doing
> on the sim - both fixed wing and heli.

That's good, most people don't.

>
> One thing that helped with the fixed wing (and I don't know why I
> haven't tried it with the nose-in stuff) is setting the time to 1/4 or
> 1/2 speed. It allowed me to think about control inputs before I
> actually needed them. Almost got rolling circles down at full speed
> thanks to that nifty feature.
>

What sim are you using again? If it's the G3, I'll have to look into that.

>>PS: If it doesn't work, you can always go back to what you've been doing.
>>Just be sure to keep the model low so as to minimize the risks. Good
>>luck!
>
> I just need to get out and fly for real. Kids, work, school, honey-do
> projects.. I'm amazed I find time to eat. :)
>

Understood! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

The OTHER Kevin in San Diego

Jan 30, 2006, 05:11 AM

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:01:19 GMT, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>> hehe, you sound like Beav..
>
>Why, thank you! That's the nicest thing anyones said to me in a while.
>Hmmm, that's a sad thought, isn't it? ;-)

Pretty sad state of affairs when a compliment could also be an insult.
ehheh

>>
>>>Therein lies the problem with sims. It's too easy to break off into
>>>unproductive stuff.
>>
>> Actually, I try a lot of the time to be very precise in what I'm doing
>> on the sim - both fixed wing and heli.
>
>That's good, most people don't.

I didn't used to - just yanked and banked...

>What sim are you using again? If it's the G3, I'll have to look into that.

G2. Haven't picked up a new one yet (Reflex is my top choice of late)
but this feature sure is nice to have.

>> I just need to get out and fly for real. Kids, work, school, honey-do
>> projects.. I'm amazed I find time to eat. :)
>>
>
>Understood! :-)

Funny, but my belly doesn't. Must be age slowing my metabolism...
hehehe

Steve R

Jan 30, 2006, 05:11 AM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:7itqt1tlfovsrdu1lctpo6ucejok6q17hb@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:01:19 GMT, "Steve R"
> <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>>>Therein lies the problem with sims. It's too easy to break off into
>>>>unproductive stuff.
>>>
>>> Actually, I try a lot of the time to be very precise in what I'm doing
>>> on the sim - both fixed wing and heli.
>>
>>That's good, most people don't.
>
> I didn't used to - just yanked and banked...
>

Actually, most folks bank first, then yank, but whatever pops your bubble!
You into super tight barrel rolls? :-D