Good All Around (TD, F3J, and Slope) Sailplanes ?

[Kai@UCSB]

Hi All,

I am looking for my first full-house TD/F3J plane but I hope it can also perform well on slope. :o
I did some study and found that there is a table at www.f3x.com shows the comparsion. Looks like X21 is a good chioce but it is no longer in production now.
Is there any more information that you guys can share ?
Thank you.

-Kai

[D_Ryan]

Kai;

You didn't say whether you are looking for a sailplane with molded construction, or one with bagged wings (typically carbon/fiberglass over foam); or even new vs. used

Since you say this is your first full-house sailplane, you may want to stay away from the molded models as they can be more fragile, and a more costly initial outlay of funds.

Quite dissimilar disciplines; duration vs. slope, and airfoils tend to be optimized to one vs. the other. As a result, it would be difficult to identify one all-round sailplane.

Tragi 702 comes to mind, and they occasionally come up for sale used here on this board. A search may turn up one in the classifieds. There is also a Grand Esteem that is oriented more to TD, may not be strong enough for a full-on F3J two-man tow, but with its 7080 airfoil may have decent performance on the slope. That's at http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=408656

Hopefully others will chime in as well.

Good Lift,
Dave

[little flyer]

http://www.aero-model.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=426
TD, F3j,a six servo wing, and 24oz of ballast

[Frank S]

An F3B model is probably the best compromise between TD and Slope. I used to have a Tragi 702 and it was pretty good at both. The current Tragi model that fits is the 704. You can get Tragis from F3X.com (http://www.f3x.com)

The Stratos 5 is a versatile plane as well. For TD, it won't float with something like a Zenith, but it covers a lot of air and lands very well. I'm not yet sure how fast it is on the slope because I haven't raced it. It flies very well on the slope, though, especially with a bit of ballast. Soaring USA (http://www.soaringusa.com) is carrying the Stratos 5.

[F3X]

Hi All,

I am looking for my first full-house TD/F3J plane but I hope it can also perform well on slope. :o
I did some study and found that there is a table at www.f3x.com shows the comparsion. Looks like X21 is a good chioce but it is no longer in production now.
Is there any more information that you guys can share ?
Thank you.

-Kai

The X 21 is in production. I think you were reading Et-Air site, ET is no longer selling X 21 but they are in production and I am still selling them in the USA.

[birdofprey]

Kai,

What is the price range you are looking to be in?

I am currently flying an F3B Icon in F3J, TD, Slope, and just about anywhere else I can find a reason to use it. As mentioned above, the F3B versions of most planes are more than up to the task of TD and F3J events.

So, look for strong F3B ship and you will cover most of your needs in one shot. (X21 would be SWEET!!!!)

Justin
Visalia bound in 10 days

[glidagida]

Dear Kai

The X21 would be an ideal ship for your use, it thermals nicely and has good manners. Another to look at is the Fazer by Lubos Pazderka, it too is a good all rounder, they are becoming quite well known down here in Oz.

The advantage of the Fazer is that it is a 3 piece wing vs the X21 as a 2 piece wing and it might just be a bit easier to carry up to the slope. Also for slope work I would opt for a 'V' tail to keep it above those 'nasties' in the grass [stones, rocks etc].

You can check out both on my web site <www.rc-sailplane.com.au>.

Regards
Dave

[Svenna]

Never ever buy a X21 ,
1: they arent produced
2: they break

Fazer is the same as Eraser , and the Eraser flies like sh......


Alex

[glidagida]

Dear Svenna

If you read the earlier post by my friend Tom Copp #5, you will see that the X21 is indeed still produced. Just because ET-Air no longer sells them doesn't mean they are no longer produced. I just received a new batch of them in July and the manufacturer is very busy producing them and there is a long waiting list.

As with any F3J/F3B machine you will have failures-hey we are pushing the envelope in design and construction and minimum weight. Your statement that the X21 breaks is like saying don't buy a Ferrari because they crash. When you push the envelope accidents happen, every manufacturer has done it, every manufacturer that is trying hard will have failures, its the nature of our sport. Manufacturers of F3B/J gliders learn from their experience and they produce a better/stronger plane next time.

As for the Eraser it has the score on the board having taken the European Cup in 2001 and it is still a good, solid flyer for people like Kai. No, its not a Pike Superior, or an Icon or an ultra expensive F3J, with the latest low drag airfoil section. But Kai is not after that, he's after a very predictable easy handling multi-skilled plane. Elsewhere in this forum you will find a thread on the easiest plane to fly ultra high/at a distance and the Eraser got the vote as the most predictable.

As for the Fazer it has a similar section [HQW 2/8] to the Pike you fly [HQW 2.5/8] and guys here in Australia like it as a versatile plane. I guess its horses for courses, some guys drive Porsches, some Ferrari's. But what we have to realize here is that Kai is not asking for the best F3B/F3J plane, but a good allrounder.

Good lift
Dave

[Kai@UCSB]

Hi All,

I really appreciate for so much useful information. I am still keeping looking for this.
By the way, how's the thermal dancer TD from polecat ?
I show one fly which is an excellent TD plane but how does it perform at slope ?
I know some guys fly their DLGs which has AG airfoil on slope and they do well. The bagged thermal dancer, however, is much cheaper than those molded TD plane. :o
Thank you.

-Kai

[StevenG]

Kai, Here is a suggestion the Mistral from FVK. http://www.fvk.de/Englisch/Mistral%20F3B.html This is a great model for the money. I have one and it thermals great, fast and aerobatic on the slope. We just had informal F3F races off the winch at my club in Germany because the wind was from the wrong directon on our slope. The Mistral was as fast as the Ellipses in the lighter air. I just had a friend come over from the US and he flew mine for 2 weeks and loved it so much he bought one back with him. He already has a Carbon Graphite, Organic and Ellipse. It comes with ballast tube installed and tow hook installed. I liked mine so much I just got the electric 3.4 D Box version. PM me if you are interested. Steve

[Chipwillis]

I have an Eraser Extreme for 3 seasons now ( well didnt fly much this year do to eye problems ), and it flies great.

I dont know how someone can say it flies bad, unless you have the CG way to far aft. Then it gets to be a handful, but it still flies great, and indicates lift even better. With a very far aft CG it will stall/spin if you ham fist in turns. With the cg alittle forward it gets more stable and flies with good manners.

I have flown mine unballasted in 20 kt winds and was able to get upwind reasonably well, but it probably would penetrate better ballasted.

I have flown mine on the slope and it does well. Again, I should have ballasted it, but with the trailing edge cleaned up and up a couple mm it cruises nice.

take that fwiw.

Chip

[glidagida]

Hi Kai

The difference in TD ships generally and the full house moulded European style F3J is in optimization of the overall flight envelope. The style of F3J/F3B flying has emphasised the ability to launch very, very fast and to 'ping' for extra height off the end of stretched monofilament line and then to cover vast distances in search of lift, this often requires flying at extreme distances and heights.

The first requires a very strong spar and wing/tailfeathers making the use of exotic composite carbon/kevlar almost mandatory, you will not see balsa used except as a core material in a composite sandwich.

The second requires a very low drag airframe and you will see lots of compound curves, low drag scimitar wing tips and high aspect ratio making the use of moulding almost mandatory. You will hardly ever see a single taper wing planform or a sharp transition.

The second also requires a very low drag wing section with a wide speed range, that means the ability to 'penetrate' as well as reasonable lift properties to slow down and thermal well. Generally the thickness is about 7-8% and the camber about 1.5 to 3.5% typical of the latest sections are HQW 2.5/8 as used on the Pike Superior or the MG06. Thin wings and fast launches mean exotic composites carbon/kevlar are required to handle the stresses.

The ability to thermal well with a thin section has bred a sections which can adjust the low drag/high lift equation by using camber changing flaps and flapperons. It means that you fly your model dynamically, changing the flap setting to suit the air you are in now. I will have to add this bit from my friend Tom Copp's web site www.f3x.com as I just love it:

"Covering Ground- Having the best climbing airplane in the world doesn't do you any good if it doesn't have the penetration to get to the good air.* The Zenith has amazing "cruising" ability. Actually, not so amazing when you remember it's size and the thin airfoil (8%). Just put the plane in reflex and scoot to the other side of the sky with little altitude loss. With 3% camber, this airplane should be flown in reflex mode more of the time than most other planes. I accidentally left the plane in reflex mode as I entered a thermal already occupied by about 5 120" TD planes.* The Zenith was climbing at the same rate they were, but flying about twice their speed. When I finally switched to thermal mode, the Zenith immediately started out-climbing the pack and ended up about 300 feet above the group, yeehaww.'

It all adds up to a different type of flying, where you as a pilot have to be a lot more adventurous with your flying. Try it, I think you will like it.

As for prices the Eraser Extreme fully moulded can be had for $799 from NSP where its called the Extreme DP.

High lift,low drag
Dave

[Masterpiece]

Dear Kai

The X21 would be an ideal ship for your use, it thermals nicely and has good manners. Another to look at is the Fazer by Lubos Pazderka, it too is a good all rounder, they are becoming quite well known down here in Oz.

The advantage of the Fazer is that it is a 3 piece wing vs the X21 as a 2 piece wing and it might just be a bit easier to carry up to the slope. Also for slope work I would opt for a 'V' tail to keep it above those 'nasties' in the grass [stones, rocks etc].

You can check out both on my web site <www.rc-sailplane.com.au>.

Regards
Dave

Hey Dave,

Got your website bookmarked, but I have problems getting to the left hand menu past "winches" ??? Any suggestions to make the browsing easier. I love the site BTW. Will you be getting any FVK models in the near future?

Also how are you going with my "Thermic" picture I sent you a few weeks ago? I've been checking to see if it's on the site, ..... but not yet :confused:

Please PM me about how to better browse your website, cause I really like it

Cheers
Glen

[glidagida]

Dear Glen

Your photo has been up for a cupla weeks-some browsers need to have their cache reset otherwise they just load the same old page irrespective of what changes my web master has made.

I will inform my web manager of your difficulties.

I am glad you like our site it took about 4 months to set up and it still is only half way to where we want it to be. We have some great EPP wings/accessories/carbon fibre sheets/rods & tubes coming.

As for the FVK they usually sell models made by others under their own names. We deal direct with the manufacturers and our prices are generally cheaper. PM me and let me know what you want.

Regards
Dave

[Svenna]

Well ok , a Fazer could be great for a sports/competition flyer... So sorry..
BUT , Et-air stopped selling the X-21 because Espen had to buy EVERYONE that broke one a new one..... Ive seen a X-21 blow up and it was in a regular F3B-launch....
But hey , maybe the new ones have kevlar around the joiner box and microballons between the spar and the skin:D


ALex

[Tuomo]

I believe most modern faster F3J planes make nice allround planes if the lay-up is reasonably strong. The aerodynamic difference between F3J / F3B / F3F planes are really quite small. F3J planes tend to be little larger than the others with span around 3.2-3.3 meters but the airfoils are very similar.

I am more than happy with my light full carbon x-tail Tragi 705. Goes well in all conditions and take practically any kind of tow. I would not hesitate taking it to a slope flying session. Tragi 705 looks quite conservative, perhaps even little old fashioned, but its flight performace is 1st class and everything is practical and built with quality. No problems due to weak structure :D

[Masterpiece]

Dear Glen

Your photo has been up for a cupla weeks-some browsers need to have their cache reset otherwise they just load the same old page irrespective of what changes my web master has made.

I will inform my web manager of your difficulties.


Regards
Dave

Cool, Thanks Dave,

It's great to see a Aussie dealer like yourself keeping it "real" for all rc'ers to finally be able to fly a composite plane at a fair price. Like your style :) .

At the moment, I'm just looking, but I hope to soon get a composite plane. I really like how the "Thermic" flys. BTW I have my butterfly setup as:

Elevator 25% down
Airelon 35% up
Flaps 60% down

WORKS a dream ..... dive down to land, downwind turn, turn to land, pop the butterfly brakes on and it slows down almost to a hover for a pinpoint landing. TOO GOOD :) . I've been told that if I like the Thermic, then a composite I'd adore, so ...... ;)

Cheers,
Glen

[jrerickson]

Kai,

I suspect that if you find a really nice TD plane you are going to be hesitant to fly it on the slope, at least in California. It's not because it won't fly well (it will) but because you will be too nervous about landing it! All the local areas where the slopers fly are very tough on planes. Places like Parker and Vincent have no vegetation, just a lot of sharp rocks. You don't see many pristine planes on the slope, at least around here.

When I've flown my TD planes on the slope it is relaxing, but it seems the vibe of the slope is more high energy. You want a fast plane with a great roll rate, one that flies inverted well, and is portable. The guys flying their power scale planes will be speeding around your plane like sharks around a blue whale.

Any plane can fly on the slope. Not that many slope planes can fly thermal duration well, with the exception being F3B planes. You may come up short in both departments if you try to compromise too much. I only mention this because you have some very nice, floaty thermal planes, like your Photon 2. Everything compared to that plane is going to seem fast, with a higher sink rate.

Ask Tom Copp what he would use. Tom is one of the best slope racing guys out there, and he also is one of the best thermal pilots as well.

John

[ClayH]

Kai,

Another plane to check out would be the Tempest. Here's a link to the site.

http://acmeflyingmachines.homestead.com/tempest.html

They aren't available new right now, but you can find deals on used ones, which is a good idea if you plane to fly the California coast anyway. They have different layups for intended use, but would be a nice, versatile airframe for you(and they have a ballast tube!).

The following is a post on RCSE fron last week. This guy has one for sale as well as a Stratus SR, a very nice sloper.

"From: "Falarski, Martin" <falarski@ebmud.com>
Subject: [RCSE] Planes for sale at Visalia

I will be bringing three planes to Visalia to sell:

1. Stratos SR (white red x-tail)for $925,

2. Fred Sage 2m x-tail for $500, and

3. F3F Tempest (yellow red x-tail) for $625.

All planes are with servos and battery, all you need is you Rx to fly.

Please contact me for details. I can provide pictures."

Good luck Kai!

Clay

[Tuomo]

The topic of this thread is "Good All Around (TD, F3J, and Slope) Sailplanes ?"

I think most F3F planes do not do well in thermals flying. Getting a a good a slippery F3J plane or good F3B plane would be much better allround choise.

[Bernd Brunner]

Alex,

may be it´s bit offtopic, but can confim the problems with the x21. Mine is not exploded during launch, but i had the "chance" (after a crash) to get a close look onto the structural design of wings, joiner box and v-tail. What a bullsh**!! Don´t buy this plane!

After the x21, i´ve bought a pike suoerior. What a difference! I also wouldn´t buy a ship with 2-piece wing once more. In case of a crash, where the wings would be irreparable, you can still use the fuse. IMHO an x-tail is also more robust, and flying with x-tail is perfect.

Bernd