Ultra Stick 60

[Smash McCrash]

I would like this forum to keep going, so...

Here's some shots of my conversion of a Hangar 9 Ultra Stick 60. The plane was originally powered by an OS 70 Surpass II and it flew quite well. I got tired of fuel system problems, that I could have fixed, and decided to go clean.

System is:
Hitec Super Slim 8
6 HS525BB servos
4 cell GP1800 Rx battery
Phoenix 60
6S Thunder Power ProLite 4000's
Hacker B50 11L geared 5.26:1
Inner Demon 48
MAS 14×8 prop

Power: 875W at 41.7A, but the gear mesh wasn't quite right
I am changing to an APC 15×8E, and hope the power is about the same. I can't use any bigger props without changing the landing gear.

Flight: Power was actually respectable, I have a little over a 1:1 thrust:weight ratio, full power climb on takeoff got me to about 100' before I needed to nose it over. Speed was ok, but I did have a bit of gear noise, so I hope I can get a little more power out of it after fixing the gear mesh and changing the prop.

All in all, the conversion is a success and I will be flying it more than I did when it was wet powered.

Mike

[Ledbetter]

Looks neat. Bring it on out to Lake Casitas this weekend.

[cs1941]

Would like to see a closeup of how you mounted the motor. I bought an AXI 4130/16 for my Ultra Stick .60 anad am interested in different mounting techniques.

Thanks.

Carl

[Smash McCrash]

The pic of the motor shows most of it. The Inner Demon gearbox has built in mounts. I just used them, after adding a 1/8" ply piece inside to take up the extra length in the T-nuts. There are 2 bolts that pass through the gearbox main frame, through a couple of aluminum tubes, a couple of specially made washers, the firewall, and in to the T-nuts. A little thread lock, blue, is used to ensure they don't back out. The motor is just mounted to the gearbox with the recommended screws. I think that just mounting you're outrunner with the radial mount kit, with spacers to set prop spacing to the recommended length, would work just fine. The firewall on this thing is made for the glow engine and is about 1/4" thick ply, or bigger.

Mike

[jfint]

Mike, you gonna be up at Simi at all this weekend? (this is Josh, the younger guy with the smaller electrics)

[Smash McCrash]

Heya Josh, I was wondering if that was you in one of the for sale threads.

Not planning on it now, other things going on this weekend.

Mike

[jfint]

Yeah I decided I can't afford the larger electrics, but I can get lots of flights on the smaller ones or 1 flight on the larger one with the bats I already have. The other Mike let me fly his Joss Stick, and I Really liked that, so I think I'm gonna try to get a gas plane. I'm just waiting for the right deal with some accessories, since I have none of the gas field stuff. Anyhow, the bigger electric stuff is going, my phasor 30 and axi 2826/12. I'll be listing them as soon as the plane is gone.

[cs1941]

I am going to use the AXI radial mount kit for my 4130/16 to mount the motor to the firewall, which will be closer than the cage mount that came with the motor when I bought off RC Groups Electrics for sale. Is there any offset needed??? Or just flush mount it ???

I am going to use two 4S2P 4000 packs in serial for power with the Optia 77 controller with an external UBC.

Any comments ??????????????????

Thanks.

Carl :p

[Smash McCrash]

Carl,
Sounds like it should work, how much power are you expecting to put out, and what size prop are you going to use? I was running about 800W to a 14×8 APC E. I think it flew the plane better than the OS70 four stroke that was in it. I am going to re-gear and prop mine, going to about 5.5:1 and an APC 15×8E, believe that I should get to about 850W without over taxing the system. The B50 can only handle 40A continuous and 50A max, I think I will be pulling just over 40 WOT static.

Mike

[Smash McCrash]

Update on flying...

Was out a week ago last friday. I changed the gearing to 5.55:1 and upped to a 15×8 APC-E. Power was up slightly to about 860W with 43A current draw. I Whatt metered it just before flying. The vertical climbs were better, and I liked the overall feel of the plane. I flew for about 6.5 minutes and decided to bring it down. I opened up the hatch and made sure that the batteries and controller weren't too hot, and checked the motor as well... everything seemed good to go. I unplugged everything and brought the plane into the pits. I went to remove the batteries and discovered that they had puffed up... ALL 12 CELLS had puffed! Thats 3S2p=6 cells × 2 packs in series... I am wondering if anyone has any idea why this might have happened!?!? They are Pro Lites, which means that the current draw is well within limits of the cells capability, they didn't seem to be too hot when I landed. Now I am not able to fly 2 planes because of lack of batteries, and I can't afford to get new packs right away.

Any input is welcome!

Mike

[d_wheel]

Sounds like you ran them lower than 3 volts/cell. Have you measured the pack voltage? I get 10 minutes of flight time on a very similar setup, but 80% of my flying is 1/2 throttle or lower. I usually put about 3 to 3.5 amps back into the pack after a flight.

Are you using a balancer on your packs?

Later;

D.W.

[Smash McCrash]

I forgot to mention... I measured voltage after the flight... 11.3V, and checked the balance, and it was good as well...

Mike

[cs1941]

Smash McCrash ---

Thanks for your input. As I said in my above post the person I bought the motor from sent me a bag of E props.
1-18X10
1-17X10
1-16X10
4-14X7

I was hoping for about 800 watts. And then use the 14X7 props.

Carl

[IWC]

FYI

There is a smaller EP version coming on the market soon.

[cs1941]

I didn't know you could put a gearbox on the AXI motor. Does it need it to swing a 14X7 prop ?????

Carl

[Smash McCrash]

I didn't know you could put a gearbox on the AXI motor. Does it need it to swing a 14X7 prop ?????

Carl

If this is directed at me, I am not running an AXi. I have a Hacker B50 in mine. You can gear an AXi, Inner Demon has a 1.5:1 and 2:1 gearbox designed for it, but, I don't think you would have to gear it in this application. Gearing them is so that you can swing the REALLY BIG props, but need more voltage for the power.

Mike

[cs1941]

Smash --Thanks.

Carl

[ray foley]

Smash:
I know this is heresy but puffy batteries and the general uncertainties about lipos, is exactly why I prefer nimh. yeah, I know they are heavy but their reliability for those of us with scrawny money trees, can't be beat. I personally intend to wait another year or so, when my kid has graduated from college, before I dabble in these newfangled lipos.

luddites unite

ttfn, ray foley

[Smash McCrash]

Funny you should mention that heresy, Ray. Been thinking about doing just that. :p

22V is about 20 cells?

Mike

[ray foley]

smash:

Under real rc use, the useable voltage for a subC nimh cell is about 0.9 to 1.1 VDC depending on current draw. The higher the amps the lower the voltage will be. at 30 amps a set of gp3300 nimh will have about 1.1 VDC per cell. At 50 amps, about 0.95 Vdc. Get the picture? Set your LVC to about 0.9 vdc/cell and a soft cutoff. Nimh are more tolerant in lots of ways than lipos.

ttfn, ray foley

[mikeb33]

FYI

There is a smaller EP version coming on the market soon.

Any more info on this? Where did you hear it?

[deSelby]

Any more info on this? Where did you hear it?

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByCategory/Product/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFL2250

[mikeb33]

Thanks!
I'd like to see a .40 size version that is lighter than the IC counterpart.

[F1 Rocket]

Light weight is ok but you can have fun at a higher wing loading as well. I have an Ultra Stick 40 (current version) that goes very well on the following set up:
Axi 4120-18
14x8 APC-E wide blade (cut down from a 16x8)
5s4p TP Pro lites
Hacker Master 70 esc
900+watts @50amps

It's a bit heavy @ 6.25 lbs but I can fly it in just about any wind. I have other planes that are lighter with the same or better power but they stay at home when the wind is really howling. The local IC guys just shake their heads in amazement :)

[deSelby]

That Mini Ultra Stick is pretty cool - a "park flyer" with quad flaps. I just wish they'd sell an uncovered version (my only gripe with ARFs).

[CPing]

F1 Rocket - I also have Ultra Stick 40 but using a 4120/14 and 12x8 APC-E. Right not I'm using a series connector with one 3S2P and one 2S2P. Both are 4200 Pro-Lites that won't handle the full throttle 50A draw without hitting LVC. I'm thinking about a 6000 or 8000 5S pack would fix my issue.
What packs are you running in your setup?

[F1 Rocket]

CPing-
I'm currently running a 5s4p (8000mah) TP Prolite in the Ultra Stik 40. Max current is around 52 amps. I have run 5s2p (4000mah) prolites in it as well which drops the power a bit due to voltage drop but I have not had an issue with hitting the LVC when using this pack. How many amps is your setup drawing?

Danny

[CPing]

I don't have a receiver for my test stand anymore but the last time I checked, ~50-52 as a peak then high 40's. Then again, this is only when I could get to full throttle before hitting LVC.

[dharler]

Hi I am putting together an ultra 60 using an AXI 4130 using a 17 X 10 prop.

Comments?

Dave H

[dharler]

Also, where did you get the nifty battery box?

Dave H

[Smash McCrash]

Also, where did you get the nifty battery box?

Dave H

I designed and built it by hand. I used the TP4000's as models and drew up the plan in TurboCAD then cut it from a sheet of 1/8" birch ply. I have since moved up to TP6000's and needed to remove the top of the box at the back and relocate the mounts, but it still works. I have used the same design, just upsized for the 6000's in my H9 P-40 conversion. I also just did a H9 Funtana S90 and used something similar. Easy to build and very secure.

Mike

[cs1941]

I was not going to a 17 X 10 prop, but same setup, when my new hips let me fnish the plane !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carl

[vegasheat]

Yeah I decided I can't afford the larger electrics, but I can get lots of flights on the smaller ones or 1 flight on the larger one with the bats I already have. The other Mike let me fly his Joss Stick, and I Really liked that, so I think I'm gonna try to get a gas plane. I'm just waiting for the right deal with some accessories, since I have none of the gas field stuff. Anyhow, the bigger electric stuff is going, my phasor 30 and axi 2826/12. I'll be listing them as soon as the plane is gone.
hey get yourself a 60size joss stick and you will love it,I just put one together over weekend and wow,its great will fly slow or fast knife edge
invert,good fun plane.
the one I have is from
modeltech got it @ H.P
in vegas.keep your electrics there fun too,but nitro ya boyeee!

[DGood]

Hey I love my old joss stick. It's a real floater with the balsa covered foam wings. With a YS 120, 4 stroke, supercharged glow engine, it will do wicked sick aerobatics! One day I'm going to convert it to electric.
Hummm. 10 pound plane would be allot of $, but it would be worth it. :cool:

[MadMax389]

I would like to convert the H9 US 60 to electric using 5S2P A123 packs. The way I have the packs configured I'll need a space measuring 2.25" x 3" x 5". Is there enough room in the tank compartment to fit these cells? I downloaded the manual for the plane but there aren't any plan measurements. Could someone who has this plane take some measurements for me? Inner width and height at the firewall and at the first bulkhead and distance from the firewall to the first bulkhead.

I have 2 packs configured with the cells side-by-side. If there is not enough room to install these I could make 2 6S1P packs end-to-end. For that I would need 2.25" x 2.25" x 8" and weight may start becoming an issue (around 1.9 lbs for 12 cells). TIA

MadMax

[Smash McCrash]

I meant to measure the tank compartment last night for you, but, I forgot. I was actually converting the US from 72MHz to Spektrum last night, so its not like I didn't have the plane out. If you look toward the beginning of this thread you can see how I did my conversion and where the battery packs go for me. You may have to let them slide back into the main radio compartment a bit to get the CG far enough back. I also have the receiver battery close to the tail, so my batteries are sitting farther forward than they would otherwise. I would recommend getting as much weight back as far as possible with a receiver battery, and maybe the servos for the rudder/elevator as well.

I will try to remember to get those measurements tonight and post them tomorrow.

Mike

[MadMax389]

Thanks McCrash, I appreciate it. I was planning to move the elevator and rudder servos to the rear if needed. I did see your very nicely designed battery box. Did you design this for Lipo's or sub C cells. The A123 cells are approximately 2.5" long and about 1" in diameter (somewhat longer than a standard "C" cell) so finding a 5S2P configuration geometry may be tricky. Maybe one 5 cell pack in each compartment would do the trick. I'm hoping to keep the flying weight well under 8 lbs.

Good luck with the Spektrum conversion. Once you go 2.4 you'll never go back.

MadMax

[Smash McCrash]

Got the measurements done last night.

Front "tank" compartment: 3 1/16" at the firewall, 3 7/16" at the first former, and 6 3/8 long.
First compartment: 3 7/16" wide and 6 3/16" long.
The first former is about 1/8" thick and has a stock hole about 2 5/8" ×2 1/4" in it.
There is a little room behind the second former, but not a lot, before you hit he stock radio tray, which you may not be needing if you are moving the servos back. I didn't get the measurement for that compartment.

Let me know what happens, I am interested to see how other people do conversions for future information.

Mike

[MadMax389]

Thanks a lot! It looks like 2 5S1P A123 packs will fit snugly in the tank compartment. I'll be ordering the plane tonight.

I plan to use a Turnigy 50-55A 400kv brushless outrunner, 80A HXT speed controller, and AR-7000 receiver with DX-7 radio. The A123 packs will provide nominal 16.5V @ 4600 Mah. I should be able to swing a 16-10 prop (or maybe 15-8) and get 8 to 10 mins flying time. If I can bring it in around 7 to 7-1/4 lbs I think it should be a sweet flier.

I'll post some pictures during the build...

MadMax

[MadMax389]

I ordered my Ultra Stick 60 from here http://www.poncinihobbies.com/Hangar-9-Ultra-Stick-60-ARF-R-C-Plane-p/han2350.htm for $171 free shipping. Not bad considering Horizon wants $185 + shipping and sales tax.

Hey Smash, do you know what the flying weight of yours is minus batteries? TIA

MadMax

[Smash McCrash]

I think that with batteries it was about 8#. I'll try to weigh it tonight and see if I remember right. :D

Mike

[Smash McCrash]

Sorry to take so long. Worked _LATE_ last night and forgot when I got home.

6#3oz without batts according to my scale, which I know is only close. I will try to remember to get a better measurement next time its out of the house.

Mike

[tai626]

Madmax, I am going to high voltage direction w same motor. I am converting an old ugly stick to electric, electrifly ss-60 hv esc and 10s1p A123. This evening, I tested run the motor with 14x10 APC and rpm read 7600. A little slower than expected. I think the batteries is not fully charged. The plan is to run at 8500 ish. It should be fast.

[MadMax389]

Sorry to take so long. Worked _LATE_ last night and forgot when I got home.

6#3oz without batts according to my scale, which I know is only close. I will try to remember to get a better measurement next time its out of the house.

Mike

Much appreciated Smash. It looks like my batteries will weigh in around 1.6# keeping the plane weight under 8#. This should keep my wing loading under 20oz/sqft. A little heavy but acceptable.

Now all I need is the plane which should arrive next week :)

MadMax

[MadMax389]

Madmax, I am going to high voltage direction w same motor. I am converting an old ugly stick to electric, electrifly ss-60 hv esc and 10s1p A123. This evening, I tested run the motor with 14x10 APC and rpm read 7600. A little slower than expected. I think the batteries is not fully charged. The plan is to run at 8500 ish. It should be fast.

Hi Tai. If you are using the Turnigy 50-55A, you may want to check the specs again. The maximum voltage listed is 22V. 10S A123 will be 33V. I don't know enough about brushless outrunners to say what happens when the motor is used at 50% higher voltage, but I suspect the efficiency drops way off. Maybe this is causing your less-than-expected RPM.

I was thinking to run 5S2P with a 17x10 or 17x12 APC generating 800-1000W depending on the actual kv of the motor. Its listed at 400 RPM/V but it looks like someone measured it at 500. At 100 to 120 watts/pound I think it should be fairly aerobatic and still get 7 to 8 mins of run time.

We'll see if reality matches my expectations. It should take me a few weeks to build once I receive the plane.

MadMax

[tai626]

I just double checked my motor. It is 5065.

Tai
Hi Tai. If you are using the Turnigy 50-55A, you may want to check the specs again. The maximum voltage listed is 22V. 10S A123 will be 33V. I don't know enough about brushless outrunners to say what happens when the motor is used at 50% higher voltage, but I suspect the efficiency drops way off. Maybe this is causing your less-than-expected RPM.

I was thinking to run 5S2P with a 17x10 or 17x12 APC generating 800-1000W depending on the actual kv of the motor. Its listed at 400 RPM/V but it looks like someone measured it at 500. At 100 to 120 watts/pound I think it should be fairly aerobatic and still get 7 to 8 mins of run time.

We'll see if reality matches my expectations. It should take me a few weeks to build once I receive the plane.

MadMax

[MadMax389]

I just double checked my motor. It is 5065.

Tai

Yeah that makes sense. I was thinking of the 5065 if the 5055 doesn't have enough juice. I'll post flight results when I get 'er built.

MadMax

The new Turnigy SK motors look good too. They have one in the 50-65 size.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7070&Product_Name=TGY_AerodriveXp_SK_Series_50-65_380Kv_/_1820w

[tai626]

Smaller prop+high rpm are never efficient. Your setup will be more efficient and more trust. Please post your result.

[tai626]

...

[MadMax389]

Just uncrated my US 60. Its bigger than I thought and plenty of room in the front tank compartment and aft of the second bulkhead for 10 to 12 A123's. I'm thinking the 50-55 may not be enough motor though. May upgrade to the 50-65 SK. I weighed all the parts and think I can keep the weight under 8 lbs with 10S More later...

MadMax

[tai626]

Way to go! HV rules in A123. BTW, could you check the down and right trust of your Stick? My has none of those! I may need some washer on the X motor mount.

[MadMax389]

The firewall itself has no right or down angle. I'm going to use an adjustable aluminum motor mount rather than the X mount. It should make it easier to adjust the down/right thrust. I'll post some pictures as soon as I get around to it.

MadMax

[tai626]

Thank you. I think Sticks have the square firewall. The new 50-65 SK can drain 80A (20A more than my old model) If you decide to go 10S, it produces 1500 W max. That's almost 200W/lb!

[MadMax389]

I was up 'til 2:00 AM but I got it done and flew it today! Here are the final specs:

6S2P A123
Turnigy 50-65SK w/ 17x8 and 17x10 APC
HXT 80A ESC
4 DMG-16 metal gear digital for the wing servos
2 Towerpro MG966R digital for rudder and elevator
7lb 6.5 oz ~18oz/sqft wing loading
10 minute flight times

I wound up with the "X" mount instead of the aluminum motor mount. I didn't use any washers to add down or right thrust. Seems to fly OK without but it may need a little right. This plane floats like a bird and is easy to fly. Plenty of power for vertical performance but its not a super snappy 3D performer. But then it wasn't designed to be.

I decided to go with 6S instead of 5S since the prop for a 5S was calculating to be an 18x10 or 18x8. I used 3-3/4" wheels as ground clearance could be a problem. As you can see by the pictures, 12 A123 in six-pack configuration fit nicely in the radio compartment. Balance was dead on at 4-1/8" per the manual. I made the wires long enough to charge them through the front hatch without having to remove the packs. At 10A charge rate, I can field charge both packs in less than 1/2 hour. I put four flights on it today before the Florida heat became unbearable.

MadMax

[tai626]

Nice airplane! I've maiden my .40 size 6 pounder Ugly Stick this morning. Actually, Ken did. Thank you, Ken. The motor is old version of 50-65, Electrify SS-60 HV, 10s a123, APC 14x10e, 7800 rpm. Input power is 27Vx35A=945w or 157w/lb. 6 min of mix flight. The wing area is 624 sqin or 22 oz./sqft. Estimate air speed 85mph. I didn't add any down or right trust either.
Just discharged the batt. It still had 846 remaining.

[foamiesrfun]

nice looking, I would like to do a 40 size glow to electric myself, trying to talk my father into doing one. he thinks the 40 glow will be to draggy with a123 cells and all.

I see tia626 posted his is at 945 watts, I guess thats autally watts on the plane with batts he uses, I think a 1200 watt system would fly the heck out of one, but worried with really short flight times. 6 minute flight would be fine with me have gotten use to it on my mini show time with 440 watts.

[MadMax389]

My US 60 flies great w/ 6S2P A123. I got an eLogger from Eagletree and recorded flights last weekend with the 17-8 prop and the 17-10. A 10 minute flight on the 17-8 draws about 2700 MaH from the 4600 available. The 17-10 draws about 3500 MaH. I could get 12 or 13 minute flights if I wanted. Peak watts was about 1100 during full throttle climb. If you can keep the wing loading under 20 oz/sqft, the US 40 should fly great. The Hangar 9 40 size stick has over 700 sqin of wing area so somewhere around 6.5 lbs should keep you around 20 oz/sqft. You could probably use a 450 to 500 kV motor with either 5S2P or even 4S2P with the right prop.

MadMax

[MadMax389]

My eLogger data for the 17-10 prop...

In-plane charging at the field...

MadMax

[hoysome]

Has anyone used the recommended 17" prop on a conversion? I am just about ready to maiden mine but am botherd by the ground clearance below the prop. I'm positive it wont work actually. about 1 inch clear with stock gear. I am either going to make new gear out of music wire, or 1/8 aluminum plate. Specificly im looking to find out if anyone here knows of a pre-made set of gear I can put on it without building it myself :)

[Smash McCrash]

I am running a 15" and the stock gear and it's real close. I don't think the 17" would fit.

TNT Landing gear may have something for you, or, they will be able to make something to your specs. I got a taller gear for my Funtana S90 and my 4Star40 from them. You will need to drill the holes for mounting and the axles.TNT's site (http://www.tntlandinggear.com/)

Mike

[hoysome]

that site is perfect! thanks :)

[MadMax389]

Has anyone used the recommended 17" prop on a conversion? I am just about ready to maiden mine but am botherd by the ground clearance below the prop. I'm positive it wont work actually. about 1 inch clear with stock gear. I am either going to make new gear out of music wire, or 1/8 aluminum plate. Specificly im looking to find out if anyone here knows of a pre-made set of gear I can put on it without building it myself :)

I'm running 17" props on the stock landing gear on the H9 US 60. I'm also using 3.75" wheels but I'm not having any problems with ground clearance even in grass.

MadMax

[hoysome]

I orderd a custom set yesterday, but I may still try it with the stock gear once :)
I also got a 18/8 G-sonic prop that ide like to try and that touches the table when its sitting completely flat!

I did my first static test with the prop on it yesterday out in my yard. I cant believe how much thrust this thing has!!!
just waiting for my 10amp lipos to get here to build the battery box before I can finally take itup in the air:)

[hoysome]

I have my radio programmed, and the plane all ready to go. all I'm waiting for now is the landing gear. baring that i'll order some 4" wheels :)
build log:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=916022