Walkera F-16

[Thatovalguy]

Here's at big something I'm testing from walkera. As you see my favorite subject the F-16 EDF. Needed to add elevators as they want you to use elevons, which I felt just wouldn't work well.

Spec's
37" span
36" long
24oz all up
11.1v 2000ma lipo
MTM 400F
combo fan (will tell story below)
elevator and ailerons
BP-30 amp ESC
Blue Bird 4ch Rx
generic servo's, (don't ask)
Airframe molded EPP

On the fan I was trying a BL motor setup with the unit that comes with the kit, it sucked the ring into the rotor it had so much power and broke the housing but the rotor was fine. So I down graded the motor to a Feigao, the original rotor and a GWS 75 housing and flew it. Well that melted the housing 10 minutes into the flight. Now I'm using the 400F, now with a new housing and all seems fine, we'll see. But it fly's great and vary easy to handle.

I have all of their jets so more to follow. Maybe even a vid if I can get someone to grab my camera and shoot it for me.

[Thatovalguy]

Well I had someone lined up today to shoot vid but its gonna have to wait till I pick up a differant ESC as the 30a thats in it only has a 1.5a BEC and last night almost lost it due to the BEC over heating and shutting down. The junk Walkera servo's draw about .65 amp each. I'm using 2 for the ailerons and 2 for the elevators and under hard manuvering and a 2.6 amp draw the BEC kicked out. Lucky for me it was only minor nose damage fixed in 10 minutes with a little hot glue which works well on this material. The other lucky thing is these jets glide vary vary good so it flew itself into the ground, other lucky thing was the last control was bring things back to center.

[Thatovalguy]

Finally here's a vid, not a great one but a vid just the same.

http://static.rcgroups.com/gallery/data/500/14351Movie.wmv

[CrashA-lot]

You say Walkera has other models for the future? What kinds are you testing? and when will they be reveiled upon the world? That video was very nice by the way, the f-16 looks like a little screamer. Hope to see more soon!

[shschon]

Well I had someone lined up today to shoot vid but its gonna have to wait till I pick up a differant ESC as the 30a thats in it only has a 1.5a BEC and last night almost lost it due to the BEC over heating and shutting down. The junk Walkera servo's draw about .65 amp each. I'm using 2 for the ailerons and 2 for the elevators and under hard manuvering and a 2.6 amp draw the BEC kicked out. Lucky for me it was only minor nose damage fixed in 10 minutes with a little hot glue which works well on this material. The other lucky thing is these jets glide vary vary good so it flew itself into the ground, other lucky thing was the last control was bring things back to center.

Get a parkbec and you won't have this problem ever again.

[Thatovalguy]

Get a parkbec and you won't have this problem ever again.

Way ahead of you, thats what I did.

Crash, They have a bunch, just testing to see if they are worth it and how much modding needs to be done.

[shschon]

Way ahead of you, thats what I did.

Crash, They have a bunch, just testing to see if they are worth it and how much modding needs to be done.

This one looks interesting. So what is your conclusion? Worth it? What modding needed?

I am a bit confused about your description of the stock motor. I don't see how a motor can cause melting of house unless the rotor is rubbing.

Have you also tested their other models? F-117, B2, Su27, F22, ...etc?

[erunway]

Hi,
I've one of this plane too.. What sort of mod you did? Elevator, is it a full moving tail
or the one inch ones.... please give more detail. What sort of motor and how many RPM did you use?

Thanks,
Erunway

[Thatovalguy]

The elevators are about 1 1/4" wide with a servo on each. I just cut a V on the underside for the hinge. The motor is a MTM 400F on 3 cell 2000ma pack. I sucked the outer housing in on a bigger motor I first wanted to use and distroyed it but the rotor was ok so I took an old GWS 75 housing and stuck the Walkera rotor in it which provided way more thrust than the GWS rotor and will also handle the rpm better. This combo also only draws 14.8 amps. Its a great flier, slowed down it acts like a sport plane. The landing in the vid was down wind.

I'm putting together the SU-27 right now on twin fans. Should be really fun.

[Thatovalguy]

http://www.walkera.com/home_e/glidere.jsp

The link to thier other jets

[dapple63]

Awesome video. That thing hand launches quite well for an EDF (maybe its just you). It is one smokin' little bird.

[erunway]

Thanks for the reply.
Where can I get the MTM motor?

Erunway

[erunway]

One more thing.. can we use a smaller fan like the wattage?
I've got the Align bl motor with 3200kv. do you think it'll do good in the supplied fan?
Is there other mods that's necessary i.e. option to take fan and motor exchange?

Erunway

[Thatovalguy]

Don't know about the motor, guess it needs a test.

[erunway]

Just tried the motor with the fan... it drew about 30amps...!
I guess I won't be using this motor...

Could you show more pics of how you put the plane together..

Thanks,

Erunway

[Arief]

Thatovalguy,

What was the CG on the F-16. I got one myself but the instruction did not indicate the CG. How did you strengthen the wing? Did you just epoxy to the fuse? the wings on my did not even come the the tabs to align to the fuse.

[roccobro]

Looking forward to hearing about the other planes. Mainly the SR and F-117.

Justin

[Arief]

I also have the SR 71 look a like ans SU 27. non of them have CG stated in the manual.So I have to guess where it is. well... at least all of them are EPP foam

[William E Brown]

Anyone know a US source for Walkera offerings?

[Arief]

I bought mine straight from Walkera (i'm in Australia). I think awl hobbies carried them in the states.
Well, I tried to fly the plane with elevons only. lawn darted multiple times. It has plenty of power- wemotec mini, het rc 2W and 3S lipo + jeti 70 speed contoller. Each time I touched the elevator it would dart to the ground.

Just a question here... with elevons, with up elevetor should both the ailerons move up or down? I have mine both up. A friend of mine says the should move down, since the plane has the elevator surface at the rear.

[Thatovalguy]

I would just add elevators like I did, much more fun and easier to fly.

[Tehota]

Just got this Kit for XMAS from BalsaPR.com

Impressions:

BIG.....!! Will look nice in the air...
Foam is VERY nice, coated with a rubberized paint that holds up well compared to other EPP painted planes I have had..
Balsa products has taken some "guesswork" out of the strengthening process and the plane feels SOLID when together, the main "fuse" is chunky and would seem very durable, I did reinforce and smooth the inlet lip at the front with some epoxy and a 1/4 inch dia 1.5 inch plastic bolt and nut for landings.

The under-wing servo arrangement is a little scary, the covers look "draggy" so I might just fly it without them, but definitely need to address these.
I may do the thru the wing top servo horn deal if I break a horn or something

I had my wife order it with a 60a BP ESC because the 40 was out of stock and I figured it will be useful once I am bored of this wattage.
I also got it with the Walkera 75mm EDF because it was so cheap and this is my first real EDF test, my FS F-16 was WAY too flimsy for my liking, so i parted it out before I damaged it :)
I am using the included Walkera 3100 2.3mm shaft motor in that housing.

Static thrust on an old PQ 2600 12c is 20oz and it sounds balanced and runs smooth.
I am unsure of the ESC programming so extended testing was halted for fear of Lipo drain.

I am surprised with static tests and draw, because what I have read it would seem this is "free lunch" for such a modest outlay of cash and "cost effective" components

But amp draw for 20oz on this was 26-27 amps and the motor was only warm after a minute of on off WOT, the fan seems to cool it.

I just wish I could program this ESC definitively, then i could test more before the maiden Sun, I would like to try and remove the throttle delay the ESC has, I have some amps to spare, I want to try some advanced timings to eek out a little more power....I want to get closer to 1:1...AUW is 26 on mine with this setup.

Any suggestions on PWM and timing with this setup?
The intake at the front is big, so I wonder if all the tapered cheater holes are neccessary, I will fly it as is, but test a few covering them. The FSA is close but there are mold bumps in there, so I wonder if there is an ounce or two of thrust in the FSA matching and smooth outlet?

All in all I really can't say anything but good things so far. I have heard the balancing of this model is a little tough, but I will know more once I give it a toss Sunday.


Thoughts?

I will post a vid if all goes well on a Brand New broken in Maxamps 15c 3s...I am betting a 4s in this guy will give me just what I am looking for in this frame...not sure if the ESC can regulate that setup with the built in BEC, it is rated for 16 cells without the BEC...so 4s should be doable...

end rambling...:)


TJ

[Tehota]

Well Not So Hot!!!

I tried her out today.....I stink.... or something is wrong... or both!! :)
Watch video by clicking pic...

http://i1.zvhost.com/1/k/kpnxkzq9.jpg (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3835596942952196/maiden_crash/)

Any up input was met with a huge stall then fall.... I got nervous and cut power which made it exponentialy worse I am sure....

It had no issues with a hand launch, flew straight and level without inputs, off throttle caused it to point up and stall....Tail heavy? I now wonder if this was the condition that some complained of in this frame... a tight tough COG?

I wonder if I had too much expo and throws dialed in, It just seemed loose and all over the place. I wonder if the high endpoints helped with the stall. I just figured the surfaces were small for the wing size and I might need the throw for Elevon style control on a large WS.

The crash took out the 75mm Walkera housing.....the rotor is fine, but should be replaced. I am bummed because it was pretty close to 1:1 considering the single 3s batt. It really was not bad at all power wise on the bench, felt positive 1/3rd throttle and pulled a max static of 27-28ish WOT.... peak thrust I saw was 21oz for a sec. 20cont.. it pulled itself on low pile carpet ever so slowly.

I just want to stay under 30a and have aprox 20ish thrust in a 75mm...?

Care to suggest a replacement or should I just buy another Walkera for 10.00 until I am a little more friendly with EDF characteristics?

Any suggestions would be appreciated....I am no PRO pilot but definitely better than the video shows.... (at least i thought I was? :) )

TJ

[roccobro]

Wow, it can climb when it wants to. :) Looks like your cg mihgt be too far aft, or your throws were too crazy. Maybe your expo was set the wrong way(too touchy)? I'd just give it another go with the Walkera unit. For $10 your not going to get any cheaper, and if it was working good (producing thrust) why change it?

Justin

[Thatovalguy]

Well Balsa Products has the original fan unit. I modded using a EDF 75 housing and the walkera rotor. Put elevators on it if you didn't. Connect them to the elevons so they work the same direction. It actually works well, lots better than the elevons only. My 16 has ailerons and elevator. You might have been tail heavy can't tell. These things are tough arn't they. Mines been crashed 5 times so far due to using wrong plane program twice, twice due to the bec cutting out and once due to flying into the sun during a roll, sun spots are hell.

[Tehota]

ThatGuy:
Where do you have your COG...I need measurements to remove this from my equation...at least if I knew what yours flew at, I could start from there...




I only want to switch because EDF is not fun to service. I really don't want to carve fan units out over an over. It pains me to see it cut as it is.

It did seem to have enough power, if I kept the power on I could have brought it in....Oh well.....

The Walkera EDF housing was thin, but to it's credit I am sure not many housings would last that kind of impact. My only other fear is melting of the inexpensive housing with long WOT runs...it won't be 27 degrees forever :)

The front inlet on the plane is a little chipped and cracked but the rest of the plane is intact...it is a STRONG frame I tell ya...

I just wonder if I should take the opportunity to get the most out of it. Swap EDFs while the cover is off. but maybe you are right? If you don't think I can get more than 20oz for 27-30 amps then so be it?

Expo was the same I use for my Stryker, throws were a lot more so it "looked right".. the surfaces rose a little more than 1/4 inch off the top of the wing on full back.

I think it was a combo of low throttle, wacky COG, and too much up elevon...

What if the rear stabilizers were creating lift? I don't think they are anything but level, and in the first 5 sec of the vid, before I try my first climbout it was not climbing...?

If it is COG I will have to add weight, because my 6oz 3s are all the way in the nose allready.....Auw is 27 so adding we'll aproach 30 and then go farther from 1:1...but it will fly :) The Walkera 28mm motor is heavy but does a great job so far......


Thoughts?

TJ

[94ZA4]

Deffinatley a CG problem. This is partly why I dropped most of the Walkera planes from my line of products. After trying several out it became obvious that the planes were too large and heavy to fly on the brushed motors provided with the RTF kit. On the brushless Walekra motors they rock, but CG is nearly imposible to dial in. I spent a lot of time with the SU-27 and F-117 getting them to fly, even then I don't think that the elivon system is the best. I think you could figure the problem out better if you convert it to ailerons, and elevators. I don't knwo where the CG is for the F-16, but if I can be of any other help let me know.

Andrew

[Tehota]

The video is a brushless deal...it has enough juice to fly for sure....won't be a rocket like my Stryker but it looks too coo/sounds neatl in the air to deny.....

The COG has to be fixable, Thatovalguy has a stable quick flight vid at the top of this thread.... It just seems that it is REAL tight on the placement of it.

I probably hurt the equation by underpowering it in a stall rather than powering on and pushing through.

I am still waiting for Thatovalguy to respond with his COG findings from that smooth video?

I am still onthe fence if I should change fans, the Walkera made good power and the rotor seems strong enough for 250-300 watts, but the housing is thin and the motor loads the molding by sticking out far into the exhaust tube...

All in all, if I can get it to fly straight, for 160ish...you can not beat it....
The 3100kv 28mm motor in the kit has me slightly amazed for being so "cost effective"

I will hold judgement though...

Anyone know how many amps and motor it takes to get a Wemotec Minifan to make 27-30oz of thrust? Still trying to stay 3s1p and 30 amps cont though.


TJ

[94ZA4]

If I remember right Thatovalguy said he modified his with seperate elivators and alierons. I think that may have some effect, also on my other Walkera EDFs the CG needed to be DEAD on, once you found it. If you move the pack even a 1/4" either way they become unstable.

For the price, you realy can't complain, as long as you don't mind tinkering to get it right. I don't have any stats on the 28mm Walkera motors, but the 20mm motors are awesome for the price. Out of well over 100 I have sold, I have only had 2 with problems. Real world testing shows they produce better thust than a higher priced, same rated motor. I realy can't compare the fans, thogh as I have never tested them side by side.

Andrew

[Tehota]

How are you guys attaching the EDF in the tube? I hot glued/ expoxied my first one in, is that neccessary? I was thinking for the future I would use good double sided tape and a couple of accessable dabs of epoxy should be enough.

Reason is I am going to try the Walkera fan unit again, and if it fails I want to be able to get it out easier this time. Rocco is right, 20oz of thrust is decent and even a Mini fan starts to max out at 600g for $40.00 according to specs, so 20oz for 10.00 is not bad at all....on a 3s...maybe a 4s would prove 15% more?

The Walkera motor is heavy at 130g 28mm, that is probably why even with the batts far forward it is still tail heavy. My ESC is a whopper at 2 ounces too, I can relocate that further forward but have to lengthen the motor wires by 4 inches or so and shorten the supply lines, is that ok for the 28-30 draw and 16khz PWM?


The final thing is, the cover tube needs to be solid, but removable... it would seem.. :)
any tips or alternate ideas on making a cartridge style cover for that area until the power system and COG is settled.

I really love the look and feel of the plane and I am willing to work to get it right, but the trial and error will weaken the affected areas if I am not proactive about it.


TJ

[Tehota]

Ok, I ordered a new EDF from BalsaPr today, the shipping was half of the EDF!!

I did some more digging and it would seem the Walkera EDF is a Kyosho clone of sorts... if you will see here:

Walkera:
http://www.balsapr.com/img/walk/Fan.jpg
Kyosho
http://www.modelairplanenews.com/ma/graphics/reviews/kyosho-f16-4.jpg

The Walkera rotor is even keyed for a spinner, but the included 2.3mm edf adapter has no abilites to accept one. if someone knows where I may get a spinner and 2.3mm adapter for this setup, please let me know?

The other issue I believe is, the F-16 by design has the center of gravity aft of the center of lift, making it a stall prone frame anyways.

I think the stock location for the fan is too far back for a few reasons:

a: General rule of EDF ducted as I have read is having an exhaust tube 3 times the fan diameter for good power. The stock location puts the fan a little less than one diameter before exit, and no tube just a slight reduction in the mold.

b: I believe the stock location is setup for a light 380 brushed cheapo machubi style motor. If you put s 4oz 28mm motor in that housing that sticks out 1.5-2.0 inches I think you will be hopelessly tail heavy without power robbing counterweights.

c: every other EDF F-16 I have seen seems to put the inlet of the fan just behind the TE of the main wing? The stock location puts the EDF and motor almost centered on the stabilizers in back, with the motor only 2 inches from the end of the tail cone....



I also believe this is why elevators are suggested, with a biased cog the elevators help push through a marginal atitude faster?..while I think they would help, I bet the stock fan placement never accounted for a heavier setup.


So....here is my plan and please I want input from the EDF gurus, even though this is a "parkflyer" EDF newbie plane.

I want to relocate the fan forward enough for an exhaust tube (3x diam rule?)
Rough Balance Point @ Root Chord (CG)= 4inches for this wing, and it would seem impossible without counterweights with my power system and batteries

I would like to know what final diameter should I shoot for using a 75mm edf?
And should I go to the 3x rule 9" tube at 270-300 watt level?

Maybe I am way off base?

TJ

[Thatovalguy]

TJ I think your putting to much into it. I mean alls I did was add elevators to the kit and mine flys just great.

http://static.rcgroups.com/gallery/data/500/14351Movie.wmv

[Tehota]

I agree, but I don't want it to simply fly now :), I want to get the best from it.

Howard,
Yours uses a much lighter motor as well
49g vs 130g

The Walkera 3100kv is more than twice the weight and length, causing that elusive COG in this bird to move beyond the batt adjustment ability.

If I had that motor I would try it, but I am begining to think relocating the fan closer to the TE of the wing will prove a more managable plane in the long run.

I will bet money that lightweight motor you swapped to aided in your success, because with the plane built by your included directions and gear.... she was a goofy Dolphin :) I double checked throws today and rates for "model 2" nothing looked awry...so COG it is...

We'll see...just waiting on the EDF...I just hope the legs of the EDF can support the 1.5 inches of motor loaded out the back in the long run. The 4 stabs in the housing look good for a brushed 380 but for a 4 ounce brushless with power, I don't know.....16.00 to see I guess? No big deal....

WemoMini if not...
My wife is a little bummed to think I have to work at my Xmas gift to get it to "fly"... She filmed the Dolphin on her maiden :)




TJ

[Tehota]

How do I determine if the inlet is enough for the FSA calculations so I do not need the cheater holes?

Is it as simple as a radius measurement? The thrust tube(fuse is the tube) is aprox 3 inch all the way to the fan, begining with the classic F-16 oval inlet.

I just wonder, if I am tuning this for the best performance, should I construct a inlet tube as well, as long as the cover is off...?

There are many large taper cheater holes on the lower cover? But the internal volume of the tube leading to the fan inlet is large and relatively smooth coated epp...just trying to max efficiency/speed on the rebuild.


TJ

[Thatovalguy]

One other question, are you using a parkbec or something similar? I had issues running four servos, they did funky stiff till I installed one than they smoothed right out.

I actually ran the Walkera motor in mine but with a 2500 3 cell pack and it did fine. But I see your point.

[Tehota]

Are you asking me if your Balsa Products 60a ESC can't deal with a 3s 2500 with 2 Hs50s? I sure hope it can? :) But no servos are still fine, range check glitching ETC, I did multiple. multiple run up tests to WOT :) EDFs sound fun... :) Servos were not the issue....

Classic tail heavy conditions, lucky the ol "nose heavy flys terrible, tail heavy never fly again" did not do me in....

Now...

You clearly indicate that the video you show is:

a: A Gws housing with the Walkera rotor, due to the Walkera housing breaking
b: A 400f outrunner that is way more compact in dimensional weight.

That being said I still feel the Walkera housing can be used, the only thing may be a heatsink needed once we get back to 50 and up temps.

Hope to get the EDF tommorrow if it shipped today? NJ to CT is one day :) regardless


Thanks for the help/input Howard, we'll see....

I contacted Faye at Walkera to see what they would say about COG and if they just pieced this kit together without testing, because the more I investigate and calculate the COG with these wings, it would seem you "run out of nose" to balance with any reasonable battery. I still maintain the fan location was only tested with a 380 and nicads as a power source..that would make sense...


BUT, I am betting 1-2 fan depth move forward with this particular setup will fly fine. Also 6 inches seems still a little aft for me I am betting now after messing with it more ....the happy spot will be 4 to 4.5 for deadsticks and such after the fan is moved.

I think this is what scared off the other vendors, because you load it up and it does fly screwy :)


TJ

[Tehota]

Faye at Walkera says the testing was performed with a 10cell nicad and the brushless, that might explain a bit, because that batt is more than likely 9-10 oz or more vs my 5.5 to 6 Lipos. balance was achieved here with the batteries far forward in the tray according to her tech.

So rather than adding weight a slight shift of the assembly might help...

I should have the fan tonight to test that idea.

As strong and as well built this plane is, I feel it has been overlooked due to some bad reports from other rcgroup members and at least one vendor.

if my idea holds true, this will be a great deal for anyone, especially at BalsaPr's great pricing/support on it.


TJ

[LTChip]

So keeping it light and moving the fan to the nose to keep a good CoG is the key here?

[Tehota]

Still waiting for the fan from BalsaPr but I will report back when I get it, should be tommorrow.

It is not written in stone, and I am not a proffesional modeler, but using COG calculators for a given wing chord and swept area, assuming a MAC% of 25% the model should come in between 4.5 and 5 inches from the LE

Now if this is true, there is no way to balance that with the EDF in the stock location using a 5-6 ounce lipo, you would have to strap it to the end of the nose, and I am not willing to add weight to move farther from 1:1 :)

This scenario is with the included 130g 3100kv 28mm motor and Walkera Fan

Just a guess and at minimum it should prove a higher degree of flexibility in battery choice and flight characteristics.......or stall like hell like it did :)


TJ

[Thatovalguy]

Well I thought you were using a/e control with 4 servos, and I found out the hard way this for some reason never works well if they are on a Y cable, alone ok buy on a Y, bad. It kept kicking out the BEC no mattaer what controller I tried, Castle/Hacker/BP.

And yek I want that spinner on the rotor above.

[LTChip]

What size is this fan?

[Tehota]

75mm


TJ

[Tehota]

Well no fan today again... hopefully it is here by the weekend so I can test out some ideas and have an actual video to post.


TJ

[Tehota]

OK, so I received the replacement Walkera/Kyosho clone :)
I moved it forward in the plane 3 fan diameters, this allows a COG with my lightest lipoly 5.5 ounces at 4.75-5.00 inches from root LE.

I constructed a thrust tube to keep velocity at the longer length, aprox tube length after fan is 9 inches.

This tube also blocks 65% of the stock cheater holes that used to be in front of the fan.

I epoxied and rounded the stock inlet as a ring for beter "fluid" flow....


Testing:

WOT shows 21 oz on a full 2100mah 15c 3s... I really need to check it on the voltage gun now before it was 27-28...I bet it is a few higher now?, the RPMs seem alot higher as well, I don't have a tach but my "pitch" is good..... there is a an audible change in the WOT .....probably a half-step maybe even a whole step

I am only left with 2 : 1/2 inch by 3 inch vent cheaters before the fan. If I block them I drop 6oz static. The most amazing thing is, I could use this plane to vaccum the living room with the inlet... it is amazingly strong at pulling the air in, that is why after the maiden I may try with the cheaters blocked..but 6oz drop is large so while static drop with no cheaters is to be expected, maybe the inlet can't provide enough without them. Clamp tests will also tell the story here.

So next is a vid, today or tommorow.... hopefully it will be a lot better than last Sun..

I will say it is damn close to 1:1...just a few ounces off of it... so if COG has been fixed it should be fun...


Just to be safe any default throws for small wing end elevons? Just to be safe.. :)

We'll see...


TJ

[94ZA4]

OK, so I received the replacement Walkera/Kyosho clone :)
I moved it forward in the plane 3 fan diameters, this allows a COG with my lightest lipoly 5.5 ounces at 4.75-5.00 inches from root LE.

I constructed a thrust tube to keep velocity at the longer length, aprox tube length after fan is 9 inches.

This tube also blocks 65% of the stock cheater holes that used to be in front of the fan.

I epoxied and rounded the stock inlet as a ring for beter "fluid" flow....


Testing:

WOT shows 21 oz on a full 2100mah 15c 3s... I really need to check it on the voltage gun now before it was 27-28...I bet it is a few higher now?, the RPMs seem alot higher as well, I don't have a tach but my "pitch" is good..... there is a an audible change in the WOT .....probably a half-step maybe even a whole step

I am only left with 2 : 1/2 inch by 3 inch vent cheaters before the fan. If I block them I drop 6oz static. The most amazing thing is, I could use this plane to vaccum the living room with the inlet... it is amazingly strong at pulling the air in, that is why after the maiden I may try with the cheaters blocked..but 6oz drop is large so while static drop with no cheaters is to be expected, maybe the inlet can't provide enough without them. Clamp tests will also tell the story here.

So next is a vid, today or tommorow.... hopefully it will be a lot better than last Sun..

I will say it is damn close to 1:1...just a few ounces off of it... so if COG has been fixed it should be fun...


Just to be safe any default throws for small wing end elevons? Just to be safe.. :)

We'll see...


TJ

Let us know if you get the bugs worked out TJ. I wouldn't mind carying them again, if I could tell people the secret to getting them to fly properly.

Andrew

[Tehota]

Well...It Worked!!! I am convinced any problems the people had with the included motor and power setup was COG. The following video was balanced at 5" It was actually a tad nose heavy, that was impossible before, if I laid off the elevons it would drop rapidly, so a shift and tommorow she'll be slicker in the air without the eleven input for level flight.

This was elevon flown with 100epa +25%expo very very mild....tommorow I will climb up and try some dual rates.

It would be nice to get a doppler on the low pass flybys, this could set a starting point for my new ideas I have planned.

Battery came out warm, but I flew it fast out of fear with a lot of WOT, not sure how she would like this with 80 degree ambient :)

You can not beat that fan @ 10.95....I don't want to say it :), because they could rebadge and charge 29.00 and no one would complain... please don't though Howard :) ...I am going to order a few more just in case....

It pushes that fat little piggy around pretty good.

Now I have adjustment room....it actually was slightly nose heavy with a 6oz batt 1/2inch off the nose.

This was flown casualy (read scared) :)

Tommorow I will test basic aerobatics....loops rolls etc

I hope you get back with Walkera, because I NEED I lower tube cover, last weeks crash made it weak, and my deadstick today fractured it, I came in too hot!!( my wife tried to help on the first landing in the vid :) )....The BalsaPR esc gives you little warning, I am used to Castle with the CUT-reset-land deal...Although that is not the best for the Lipolys :)
LVC on that esc left my bat at 9.5?!!?... so timed flights are a must with it.



Faye@ Walkera says 014-002 lower cover is 3.00, but shipping thru EMS is TOOO MUCH...

So I will wait for you or Balsapr to get me one on one of their orders...Glue and an ol Stryker for patching for now :)

Maybe I will make a cover out of glass with the Walkera piece as a mold..just dont want it to be too heavy...a new piece strengthened would be the best...who knows when parts will be available..that is the only downside to these planes now I can see...until parts are available fluently.

I can take some pictures,measurements and how I seated the fan in a new location.

I hosted the file click on pic:
http://i1.zvhost.com/1/s/sq8y4cf5.jpg (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7650311553085156/walkera_f-16/*tehotaone)


TJ

[Thatovalguy]

First never gonna raise the fan price and second that fly's nice. Sorry about your lower tube I'll talk to Dave about parting a plane out and let you know.

Well at least it proves I did sprinkle pixie dust on mine to get it to fly. :D

[roccobro]

Not bad at all! Gongrats on the fix. :)

Justin

[Tehota]

Thanks guys, and I know you would not do that Howard :) I was just saying it is worth that...Thank you for the offer to ask Dave, I would really appreciate that...


and the more I watch Kyosho vids the more I think it is the same fan by identical sonic signature.

Still not used to EDF landings...Coming from a Stryker that glides all the way home..it is going to take sec to get used to...but I will say it glides damn well with the fan up more.... all 4 3S batts getting topped off for tommorows test.

I am pretty damn happy now....but I can tell you I would like 10-15 mph more for aerobatics....but don't we all?

One question, in a frame as big as this, is this about the speed I can expect from a single 3s pack?, maybe try a single 3000 4s 20c?

TJ

[Tehota]

OK here goes.

If you have a Walkera F-16 and could never get it to fly right with the stock EDF Brushless Motor and 3s or better lipolys I might have a solution.

Relocate the fan assembly.

First you need to take your lightest battery you plan on using and locate it at the farthest point in the battery tray, I gave myself .25 inch of wiggle room YMMV

Now remove the lower cover tube, hopefully it comes off easy, I applied firm horizontal pressure to separate my CA glue points.

Now that that is off you have to free the fan and clean up all attach points and fan assembly

You may or may not have to lengthen or shorten your ESC wires, I have my ESC in the tube on the "down slope" after the inlet...may not be the best place for it, but air will flow over it, and it is not visible looking in to the inlet due to the internal slope of the chamber, if you have one you'll see what I mean.

Here is where it gets hairy, you have to take your fan and play with some placements to match your battery, by using your lightest battery you set a batt chamber spot that can adjust for a larger/heavier one in the future.

Cog/MAC calculators for the plane show optimum COG at 4.5 inches of LE. That is with a Static margin of 15% to keep it responsive but not twitchy.

It just happens that the area where the servo wires appear into the wing is this point. My plane flew in the recent video at 5" and was slightly nose heavy with a 6oz 3s 1/2 inch from the tip of the tray.

So you may want to shoot for 5" and have some "play"

Make sure during placement testing to tape on all covers and battery cover, the COG on this bird is FINITE, 1/4 either wat and she tilts.

Once you find where you need to be, take the fan and closely outline the spot in the tube where it will go, I used a soldering iron with a #1 tip to melt away the foam CAREFULLY to lose the 1/16 inch aprox "seat for the fan.

The center of the fan housing has a raised lip that needs to be referenced and level for good placement.

use a level on the housing....measure twice melt once.

If you go slow and take down the foam with VERY light pressure, while puting your hand on the other side of the plane to ensure you are not close to going thru you will be fine.

My housing ended up 1/8 inch behind the rear tab for the wing indent, if you have one you'll understand.

You also have to carve out a healthy channel below the fan to pass the ESC wires under, there is alot of material at the top of the tube, but be careful.

Once it starts to get "close" you need to dry fit the parts with tape and test for "high" spots and rubbing... the tolerance in the EDF is close so misalignments ans pressure could cause it to rub...So....melt...tape in....cover. test.....until no rubbing.. level mount with no tilt, and a nice recess in the front to keep the air speed up .

It took me about an hour to do this.

Once you get you fan where you need it to be, you are going to have to either
A: cover the Cheater holes now more than likely behind the fan
B: construct a thrust tube out of mylar, poster board, fibre

I opted for B because I was not sure on how well this would work, so I did not want to spend a day on a fibre thrust tube and have terrible results.

I taped on my glossy coated inversed poted board tube and kept the taper smooth to 95 FSA and had it stop at 1/16 beyond the factory outlet.

This negated the reason to cover the cheaters, maintained the airspeed and believe it or not, gained some rpm in the WOT tests.

If you end up like mine you'll be left with 2 of the cheater holes in front of the fan. I flew it like that and it was doing about 62 mph in a waveosscope doppler test. Iwill try it with them covered eventually, but I am still tweaking EPA and EXPO...so baby steps...

I epoxied the inlet "high" then sanded and molded the epoxy to a good radius for efficiency...that is all I did on the inlet. I did add a 1.5inch plastic bolt and nut as a vertical brace to help in a rough touchdown

I sanded the bolt to a tear drop shape, and now it looks like the factory brace I have seen in some F-16s....If you are a better pilot than I, (most are) you may want to skip that step, my only fear is it comes loose some day and goes thru the fan probably not though...

When I replace my lower tube, once I get a replacement from BalsaPR I will take some pics.

At the end of the day...it flys slow..glides light... with no pitch up, goes pretty quick with the included modestly priced gear...

If you had reservations based on some reviews, you should pick one up at BalsaPr.com.... for the 160.00 you can't beat it....I bet she will come alive with a 4s 20c 2500-3000 mah.....I am going to pick one up to test.

Maybe a 4s1p 36" WS plane that does 75-80 for 160.00 that is EPP fixable
I have been looking for this for a while.....

[Tehota]

Well i trimmed her up...set better expo...EPA...going good.....then......

Viola'

http://i1.zvhost.com/1/n/n675ksde.jpg (http://www.zippyvideos.com/4414814863108896/twist/*tehotaone)

Long video with minimal aerobatics, I was still trimming and getting a feel for her, my 3rd total flight.....then....the ending is worth the wait...

Lipolys are stronger than I thought
This plane is incredibly strong......
Light towers have tractor beams......

:(

TJ

[Thatovalguy]

ooooooooowwwwwwch, I felt that and feel for you. Ummm, a lot of hot glue and it'll be almost good as new as long as you have all the parts. Man that sucks.

[SU Jags]

Man, that sucks! Can you repair it?

[roccobro]

At least you got it on tape. The only satisfaction I get from toasting my planes is to share the gore and horror. :p

I think it is fixable :D

Justin

[Tehota]

Rocco and Oval:

All is back no normal now. To get her back all the way, I desperately need the lower tube.

Unbelieveably...it is back together....with no missing chunks! The canopy has a nice ding and the wings have a little rash but, I believe it fly normal. I used baking soda solution and CA to keep it light, because the parts had no real voids...

Range check, servo travel, fan spins balanced.

Tough...tough stuff...

Stay tuned... It will be back in the air....better.

No I am not obsessed.. :)


TJ

[Arief]

TJ,
Great to see the F16 fly. I got mine a few months ago but never flew. Each time I launched it, it will fly out of my hands then a few seconds later it would suddenly dart to the ground without any control input from me. I have a minifan in it and a het rc 2W motor. about 450 watts. I was using only elevons too.

I will give it another go, but still unsure what the problem might be.

[onedeath]

I got one of these f16s also.

My kit was missing the directions.

Does anyone have a set scanned?

Thought I'd ask here first before I e-mail Walkera.

Thanks

[RCAV8R13]

They should rename the Falcon the Thud...oh, wait, that's already taken.
Never mind.
RCA

[dman1]

Nice job on the correction. My friend Henry and I purchased the flying styro F16 and are using a alfa fan and the Aon 2415-4900. we will be using TP prolites 3s pack. he has used this set up on his Mig 15. We are hoping to crack 100mph. he finished his plane and it came in at 15 oz. His testing resulted in 21 oz of thrust with an amp draw under 30. we will be flying it with the elevon config to save weight. We will keep you posted on results.

[titaniumracingt]

Anyone try making a more scale wing for this bird?

[icejay55]

hi guys my name is jay i am new in this forum i started flying with a stryker and now i am going to get walkera f16 i live 20 mins from balsapr i wanted you guys should i start right off with edf setup or should i try the pusher setup up and what is faster i am all about speed and aerobatics and what motor do you guys recommend or shpuld i use the 3100kv that comes with it. Your help would be very appreciated i have read all 4 pages and nice video

[roccobro]

Cheap power and speed is pusher. But this is the EDF forum and we are EDF junkies. Go EDF.

Justin

[icejay55]

ok should i use the edf that balsa recommends or do you guys a better setup i am going this friday to pick up my f16 at balsa they are only 20 mins away from me. i see edf is the way to go i flew my friends su27 and it flew great but i like the f16 looks and all

[Tehota]

"Stay tuned... It will be back in the air....better.

No I am not obsessed.. "


Well i have been flying this bird with 3100kv/ky clone fan/ 2100 3s....It is fun but a little underpowered and short/hot battery flights.

So over the weekend i have done a transplant.

Wemotec MiniFan
HET Rc 2w
Enerland Lipo2 20c 3300 3s

AUW is 33 oz, she feels very strong on a delivered half-charge run up.


You may say, "why the hell put that power in a 100.00 EPP Walkera plane?"

Because this plane is large and looks very slick in the air...
I have crashed into a light pole at 70 and it still flies...
It is field repairable.
225 watts per pound !!


Edit: 265w per/lb I just tested the static and it surprised me,
52A at 10.2v on a pack that rests at 11.4, just for a few secs, I want to break the pack in right.
On a full charge what might I see?

I may have to turn the PWM down in the ESC, to keep levels sane....
Anyone suggest timing and PWM for a 6 pole/2w?

I will eventually transplant this power into a "cleaner" frame, but for now..

Maiden video to follow................. wish me luck...

[Joe 1320]

My F-16 kit is on the way, based on your experience of relocating the fan. I'm ready to maiden my Walkera F-22 with twin brushless 380s, Walkera Fans, twin Walkera 30A escs and a 4500mAh 3s2p vampower lipo. It has enough thrust to hover vertical with just a fingertip on the nose to keep it stable. Can't wait to get it dialed in so that I can start the F-16. I've also got the F-117 kit tucked away for when I get bored. I still want to pick up the SR-71...... a little creative surgery with a knife and I'll bet it will look more scale.

[Joe 1320]

Well.........my F-22 maiden ended up looking like yours after it's suicide run into the light pole. It was either too nose heavy or not enough up elevon. It happened too quick for me to figure out. I'm putting it back together for another try. :rolleyes:

[Tehota]

Well I got out to maiden the new setup......I was only able to get to the local HS where it is way too small to get a good run at it....but you'll see the possibilities in there...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529684#post5609353

TJ

[roccobro]

Good job! Are you launching at part throttle too? She does nice. :)

Justin

[Tehota]

Yes I am launching at part throttle...for the batteries sake, they are new.

I am currently trying to decide on de-draging this airframe.....
I want as much vertical out of it as possible as well.

I was going to skim coat the plane in light spackle filling any voids and then paint it with H20 Krylon...this will probably add 2-3 ounces...
That would take me 20% away from my 1:1 goal, but would it prove beneficial in top speed?


TJ

[Joe 1320]

My f-16 is going together right now, I found small carbon fiber rods to reinforce the tail surfaces. I already installed the tubes in the wings, does this bird really need the tail reinforcements if I'm not changing from elevons?

Since this kit originally came outfitted with brushlees motor and pusher prop, has anyone flown it this way?

[erunway]

Hi TJ,
Just to confirm. You oonly use elevon to fly? COG is 5" from LE any reinforcement required?

Erunway

[Joe 1320]

One minor note on the Walkera F-16 kit. If you get the ducted Fan upgrade and wish to use the supplied Walkera motor, the fan adapter hub will require drilling a slight oversize as delivered. The hubs will ft the brushed motors just fine, the brushless motor is .3mm larger, just enough to not fit the hub without a slight enlargement. ;) Just a little time saving tip.

[Tehota]

No reinforcements other than stock, 5" is a good starting point with 5-6" exhaust tube after the fan move. Elevons only..

Flys great..

Waiting for the Het F-16.....patiently...........:)

[erunway]

Thank TJ,
will follow your set up...
finally got the time to finish this model..

Kind Regards,

Erunway

[Joe 1320]

Mine is finally finished. I used the Walkera 380m brushless motor, 50A esc, futaba rx, Vampowerbatts 3s2p 4500mah (10.5 oz) and the COG is dead on at 4.75 inches back. I didn't relocate the fan, but I am adding a small extension to the exhaust outlet similar to the real deal. One thing I learned from my Walkera F-22..... the included electronics from Walkera bite :censored: , the airframes, fans and motors rock. The maiden should be in the morning......... :cool:

[Joe 1320]

Forgot to report back, the maiden at 4.75" back COG was a little nose heavy. :eek: I launched at full throttle, it seemed to take a bit to get on step, partly due to the nose heavy condition and the required up input. At least it flew out, albiet with mostly full up elevons. Circled the field a few times left and right, did a couple of figure 8s and brought it down. I was able to float along at about half throttle for a pass right before landing, it handled decent considering the CG. It does like to come in a little hotter than my F-22.

All in all, the maiden was a success. I've moved the CG back to 5", but haven't tried it yet. Anyone found "the" happy spot on this airframe yet?

[Joe 1320]

5" back is still nose heavy. I'm using a Vampower 10.5oz 3s2p 4500mah lipo and find myself moving it backward! I bought that battery because I needed it for the F-22 and it handles twin brushless 380s well. With a single motor like the F-16, it's overkill but I get nice long flights! I'm sure I could get a smaller and lighter battery, but this one works without spending additional dough. I can go wide open throttle for a considerable time too, not that it's really needed. It flies great at 60%.

I'm going to try 5.5 -6.0 inches back once I replace a servo that I toasted on landing. The lesson is to use the servo covers. I thought I would get things dialed in first, that was a bad choice. Now I gotta wait for the extra servos that I already ordered last week. At least that was good fortune.

[Capgun_Slim]

Does anyone know where to buy one of these, besides Balsa Products? They're out of stock, and have been for quite some time. Any link to where to buy one besides BP would be greatly appreciated!

[Joe 1320]

At the moment, I don't know anyone that has it in stock. I have group purchase going on right now and even the manufacturer is out. :( I don't think there will be any new stock for another couple of months.

[Capgun_Slim]

Damn. Thanks for the update though.

[Joe 1320]

Damn. Thanks for the update though.

I had 5 people wanting the F-16 and dropped out due to the lack of availability. The next GP will be perhaps in a few months, send me a PM if you want to be kept in the loop for the next go around. I think the F-16 was a little less than the models with twin fans, they were way under $100. :cool:

[Capgun_Slim]

Joe, you have a PM.

[Joe 1320]

6" back CG works much better. Nowhere near as nose heavy and the response was good. I ended up putting the receiver all the way up in the nose, the Vampower 3s2p 4500 mAh battery was placed pretty far back. I ended up making the canopy and the rear cover one piece, giving me access to the entire front section. The battery is much better protected in that location too. I also swapped in a Tower Pro 60A esc, the engine screams now. No way did it have this kind of RPM with the Walkera ESC.

[mrm1]

So Joe,
Are you saying get the plane but avoid the electrionics package?

I am looking hard at this one once they come back in stock. And speaking of stock, so the stock motor is adaquate?

Mike

[FASTBEN]

i looked all over even on ebay cant find one!!!!!!!!!
ben

[Joe 1320]

That's because the vendors are sold out and more won't be available from Walkera for another 3-4 weeks. :mad:

[Joe 1320]

So Joe,
Are you saying get the plane but avoid the electrionics package?

I am looking hard at this one once they come back in stock. And speaking of stock, so the stock motor is adaquate?

Mike

Um... yeah, Walkera electronics bite. The Brushless ESCs, receivers, transmitters all have high failure rates. I wouldn't trust them after having nothing but bad personal experience.

Their brushless motors kick though. I use the Walkera 380m with a 60 amp esc. Yeah, that's overkill but I didn't want any problems with keeping it at full throttle. That motor with the 75mm Walkera fan is plenty. ;) I wouldn't hesitate to run these motors in anything. The only thing about the motors is they are a little heavy. I use a pretty big battery to offset the weight so CG issues weren't bad. As a matter of fact, I had to push my battery rearward cause it's a porker. :eek:

[FASTBEN]

thanks joe.
ben

[Joe 1320]

thanks joe.
ben

Since you're looking for the F-16, we *may* try the GP again in about 3 weeks, there are quite a few people on my list wanting those. Shoot me a PM if you would be up for it and not in a hurry.

[scratchandbash]

I had 5 people wanting the F-16 and dropped out due to the lack of availability. The next GP will be perhaps in a few months, send me a PM if you want to be kept in the loop for the next go around. I think the F-16 was a little less than the models with twin fans, they were way under $100. :cool:

BP shows them on their site. They are currently out of stock, but it was on their ad in a magazine, 1 month ago, which makes me think they are reordering. Wish they'd carry more of their stuff.
http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V309379&pid=V481263

Joe, if I can get some loot together, are you planning on selling or keeping the airliner?

[FASTBEN]

btw:on construction manual f16 6" from fuse leading edge for CG check end of the page 4.
ben
http://www.bphobbies.com/pdf/WalkeraConversion.pdf

[Joe 1320]

btw:on construction manual f16 6" from fuse leading edge for CG check end of the page 4.
ben
http://www.bphobbies.com/pdf/WalkeraConversion.pdf

Yeah, I found that online after I went though the whole process. :rolleyes:

[Joe 1320]

After several flights, I do have a question for others. Is there a way to bring this down without any damage? This thing really needs landing gear. The lower cover and wingtips take a beating.

[Capgun_Slim]

Well, I just got a notification that bhphobbies formerly Balsa products, have the F-16 back in stock. I just ordered mine, along with the ducted fan unit. For $109.00 you get the plane with all the accesories, plus a Brushless 380 3100kv motor. Doesn't state what brand it is though which worries me a little. But the fact that it says that you need to use a 40amp brushless ESC sounds promissing! I'm planning on making it a elevator aileron ship instead of elevons, but I'm not sure yet. Does anyone know if this included brushless 380 is worth a damn? Or does it need something better like that 400F or some other motor to really make this this move with the ducted fan unit?

I wanted to order this right now, since it seems these things don't stay in stock long, and there are only 1-2 places that carry them. As well as it taking several months to get them back in stock. So if anyone wants one, better get em' while they're in stock for the moment.

[Scarey]

Powerless landing
Glassed (epoxy only) critical areas
(Mine is a pusher-not ducted fan-fan broke so I cconverted it due to less work at the time it happened)

[scratchandbash]

Well, I just got a notification that bhphobbies formerly Balsa products, have the F-16 back in stock. I just ordered mine, along with the ducted fan unit. For $109.00 you get the plane with all the accesories, plus a Brushless 380 3100kv motor. Doesn't state what brand it is though which worries me a little. But the fact that it says that you need to use a 40amp brushless ESC sounds promissing! I'm planning on making it a elevator aileron ship instead of elevons, but I'm not sure yet. Does anyone know if this included brushless 380 is worth a damn? Or does it need something better like that 400F or some other motor to really make this this move with the ducted fan unit?

I wanted to order this right now, since it seems these things don't stay in stock long, and there are only 1-2 places that carry them. As well as it taking several months to get them back in stock. So if anyone wants one, better get em' while they're in stock for the moment.

I've wanted one for a while, but am short on loot for a few. They'll be gone by then. :eek: :mad:

I don't get it with these Walkera folks. They have a nice product, don't seem to want to sell it, and apparantly are rumored to want to be all helis, which I inderstand they don't do well. Well, if they sell out again before I can get one, they can keep it all.

Bill

[Capgun_Slim]

I hear you on the "no funds" thing. Good thing they take AMEX :p
Or else I wouldn't have been able to purchase one either.

I'm hoping someone will tell me if the included Brushless 380 3100kv motor is any good or not, or if I need to upgrade? If so, to which motor? Incase anyone didn't read my above post, I did order the Walkera ducted fan unit as well, so it will be EDF and not a pusher.

Well, I read through the whole thread from the beggining and answered my own questions. Good thing. It looks like the stock units from Walkera a very good, and I won't need anything else. I already have a NIB Phoenix 35 I could use, or Jeti opto 40 Plus advanced I could use. Planning on using either a Thunder Power 3s 2100 or a Thunder Power 3s 3200. Thing is, the 3200Mah is only a 10c cont. with 15c bursts while the 2100 is 15c cont. with 20c bursts. What to do, what to do.

[scratchandbash]

I hear you on the "no funds" thing. Good thing they take AMEX :p
Or else I wouldn't have been able to purchase one either.

I'm hoping someone will tell me if the included Brushless 380 3100kv motor is any good or not, or if I need to upgrade? If so, to which motor? Incase anyone didn't read my above post, I did order the Walkera ducted fan unit as well, so it will be EDF and not a pusher.

Well, I read through the whole thread from the beggining and answered my own questions. Good thing. It looks like the stock units from Walkera a very good, and I won't need anything else. I already have a NIB Phoenix 35 I could use, or Jeti opto 40 Plus advanced I could use. Planning on using either a Thunder Power 3s 2100 or a Thunder Power 3s 3200. Thing is, the 3200Mah is only a 10c cont. with 15c bursts while the 2100 is 15c cont. with 20c bursts. What to do, what to do.

Look at your most recent AMA mag, if you have one. They did a review with stock gear.

Bill

[Ralph Brekan]

Hmm, whos stocking these? BPhobbies is out.

[Capgun_Slim]

Jesus, that was quick! They were in stock for 1 whole day before they sold out? Wow! Put your name on the Notification list at BP hobbies and they'll send you an e-mail when they're back in stock. That's what I did. And thank god I ordered about 5 minutes literally after I recieved the E-mail notification. I can't believe their all gone already. Are you sure they're all gone? I don't see where it says sold out on the site?

Ralph, nobody else in the states stock these. BP is the only place. Joe1320 might be able to still get you in on a group buy direct from the factory. But I don't know. I've waited over 2 months to be able to order mine. I don't know how long you'll have to wait now. Call BHP and ask them, maybe they can give you an ETA.