Gws A10 Edf55 300h

[Branjo]

I need some advice, I am planning to get the GWS A10 EDF55 with the 300H motors and to put a GWS 3-cell 1200 mAh LiPoly in it. But with all the different versions of the A10 out there, i want to know if it will fry the engines or not, i also want to know if the plane is a good choice, and worth the money...thanks all!

[sloppytypist]

i don,t know how long the motors will last. i do know that it will fly, as i have with that combo. You will likely need a bigger/heavier battery to balance it out. I used an 1800 3s. 5-6 min run time. check gws web site for motor specks. there are plenty of pages here on the a-10, search it.

[Branjo]

Thanks for the info, i'm also thinking about putting heat sinks around the motors to keep them cooler...i'm thinking it will make it last longer, i'm also going to put light weight foam wheels to help make the landings softer.

[sloppytypist]

heat sinks are good. i removed the landing gear and servos/linkages to save weight. saving weight is the key to making this thing fly, until you go brushless.

[Branjo]

Thanks for the tips!!!

[Larry Dudeck]

EDF55/300H/heat sinks on 3Sx2150 LiPo. Balance right at 57 mm aft of the LE

No LG

Easy HL and 9 minute flights, full throttle only at HL

40 flights and the motors were shot

[scratchandbash]

Heat sinks or none, the limitation with the brushed motors is the brushes. The problem is that airflow mostly cools the commutator and brushes, while the heatsink cools the case. The heat transfer from the brushes to the heatsink just isn't that good. I would still use 3s and throttle management, because it is better to fly, than not to fly. Just don't place too much faith in heatsinks helping brushed motors.

[shschon]

I need some advice, I am planning to get the GWS A10 EDF55 with the 300H motors and to put a GWS 3-cell 1200 mAh LiPoly in it. But with all the different versions of the A10 out there, i want to know if it will fry the engines or not, i also want to know if the plane is a good choice, and worth the money...thanks all!


Battery too small too weak. You will fry your battery, not the motor. Also you will see poor performance. Get a 1900-2200 size 3 cell LiPo that is good for at least 8C and you will be fine. Heat sinks help. However limit throttle as much as possible to prolong motor life. Keep the flight short as well.

[clausxpf]

But really.... go brushless.... that makes the real difference...
Ok... it is money up front.... but it pays back...
Claus

[rcguy01]

But really.... go brushless.... that makes the real difference...
Ok... it is money up front.... but it pays back...
Claus

I second that :cool: :cool:

[meteor]

On an A-10 going BL is BIG $$!

- two BL motors $80 (temporarily on sale at $39.95 ea.)
- two 18A-25A controllers $140 (you -might- get one controller to work, but it needs to be much bigger)

Total: $220

That is a LOT of stock motors to go through!


Really, in the GWS A-10 the best bang-for-performance buck is a good, LIGHT, Li-Po pack. (new 16C or higher packs, like the PolyQuest XP 1200 in particular)


Fun!

[igo]

well, if you don't mind alittle bit of work, you can make two nearly identical brushless motors for say $25 for n50 and magnet wire and then get one cc25 for about $60 so your bl set up would be about $85.

[meteor]

Oh yeah, try and remove your EDF-55 rotor/hub assemblies before you build it, or you will never get the stock motor out without ripping the nacelles apart! :(

If your motors have splined shafts, run the motor on a "D" battery and file the splines down so the rotor adaptor fits on fairly easily. (to re-mount the rotor, use the setscrews to hold it, novel concept! ;) )

[rcguy01]

On an A-10 going BL is BIG $$!


- two 18A-25A controllers $140 (you -might- get one controller to work, but it needs to be much bigger)






Fun!


No way, $140 for two 18 amp ESCs is the price of yesteryear.
Please try not to scare off flyers with outrageous number...
Also two brushless motors with one ESC is not a
highly recomended way.


$80 for two new thunderbird Castle creation 18 amp ESC; $40/ piece
http://parkflyermotors.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=814
or some e-flight ESCs. $80 that is all you need for two ESCs, not $140

$80 for two brushless motors + $80 for two good ESCs :cool: :cool:

[clausxpf]

or you can try this : http://www.himodel.net/
they are good to and no problems there.
I have done it a couple of times.
Claus

[meteor]

No way, $140 for two 18 amp ESCs is the price of yesteryear. Please try not to scare off flyers with outrageous number...
Also two brushless motors with one ESC is not a
highly recomended way.

I was simply quoting the price from two reputable suppliers:

- http://aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=298

- http://parts.rctoys.com/rc-toys-hobbies/Items/400091%20-%20(S)?

Obviously the BL ESC industry is in the midst of a shakeup, but I wasn't sure how long the deep discounts would last. (Draganfly had CC25's for $47.95 for a while, but not any more)

Also, I did specifically say that one BL ESC and two motors might work. I was being cautious, as it's incorrect to flatly say it won't work, as many people have had success doing so.


Finally, it’s very unlikely that a young/new flier is going to have the extra cash to almost triple the cost of their new (essentially ready-to-fly) airplane with brushless motors and controllers!

It's all about where limited money is best spent. In the case of the GWS A-10, it's best spent on good Li-Po batteries. (an extra pack or two is much more fun than waiting an hour to fly again with BL motors!!)

[jrb]

Been flying my A-10 on 300H like motors with 5bladed 50s for a several years – preceded the 55s & 300Hs by at least a year. ROGs via tailwheel using ailerons (rudders couls be rigged easily).

Initially flew it with 10xHE1100s; but flies much better with a TP2100-3S (1st Gen) – see test data below.

The same pack powers my B-2 w/55 & 300Hs, and would be a better choice for the A-10 than mine.

As stated above, the GWS 3S packs don’t have the guts for the 55s w/300Hs; you need a 16amp capable pack – 2100s are good, a lighter pack would add performance as well.

A very good alternative to going brushless from the start; go for it later if you want.

Rotors are easy to remove (installed or not); best tool is a pair of paint can openers.

[meteor]

Rotors are easy to remove (installed or not); best tool is a pair of paint can openers.

Could you describe this method to all out there?

The plastic rotors are fairly easy to remove, it's the aluminum rotor adaptors which give a lot of people grief! :(


Thanks.

[Larry Dudeck]

I have just replaced the stock EDF55/300H combos with similar brushed sets from Air World. $35 delivered for two fans with mounted motors.

It took 30 miutes to change the first, about half of that to change the second. The nacelles had to be cut a little but no big deal. When first building, I elected not to glue the fans into the nacelles

My A10 flies nice on this setup (3sx2150 Tanic, 15 amp GWS ESC, easy 9 minute flights), might be faster with brushless motors but speed has never been my aim. If I get 40 flights from these, great. That is a whole summer of A10 use for me.

I'll save the $$ brushless set-ups for a more worthy project. Nothing wrong with the A10 but still, it is a park flier.

[jrb]

IIRC it was 1st described late in this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94246; don’t know where you’re located, maybe you don’t have them around, so here’s a photo of the tool.

[meteor]

IIRC it was 1st described late in this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94246; don’t know where you’re located, maybe you don’t have them around, so here’s a photo of the tool.

Found the link, but as I thought, that's just to get the rotor off the hub, not the hub off the shaft! :( see: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1397921&postcount=122

It can be a real pain to remove that rotor hub from the shaft. Sometimes you might get lucky and have it pop off somewhat easily, other times it can be very difficult.


If you want to save the motor, the best way is to enlarge the set-screw access hole so you can get a flat-blade screwdriver under the adaptor, and slowly twist & turn the adaptor off the shaft.

Heat may help, but "yanking" from the front won't apply nearly as much torque as a twist between the motor bushing and the adaptor, and you might bend the motor shaft!

FYI, with the screwdriver "twist from below" method, you can actually leave the plastic rotor on the adaptor, as it really won't get in the way too much. :)


Once it's all apart, file the motor shaft splines and test the hub for a nice smooth push-on/off fit. (not too loose though!) :D


Fun!

[rcguy01]

I was simply quoting the price from two reputable suppliers:

- http://aircraft-world.com/shopexd.asp?id=298

- http://parts.rctoys.com/rc-toys-hobbies/Items/400091%20-%20(S)?

Obviously the BL ESC industry is in the midst of a shakeup, but I wasn't sure how long the deep discounts would last. (Draganfly had CC25's for $47.95 for a while, but not any more)

)


Do you mean how long those high price brushless ESCs will last?
Not very long...

Lipo price, brushless motor price, brushless ESC price are falling...
and become very affordable... by this time next year, for $90-120
or even less... you can have a fairly good set up
with Lipo + brushless + ESC for your Park flyer... might be sooner
than I predicted...

Say a chinese copy of "hacker A20-20L" $40-50 +
$30 brushless ESC + $20-30 3S 1800-2100 Lipo

So What I think is how long will those Brushed motors will last. They
will be soon gone... very soon..
Surely those high price Gadgets for RC will not
last long in this RC business.


My last brush motor was kind of way back... three years ago.
Too long to remember...

Peace...

[Branjo]

Would an Electrifly 1500 mAh 3 cell Lipoly be a better choice over the GWS 3-cell?

[meteor]

Would an Electrifly 1500 mAh 3 cell Lipoly be a better choice over the GWS 3-cell?

I've ready pretty bad things about those "Electrifly" batteries. They get really hot under a modest load, and are significantly "over-rated". (8C, I think)


I'd stick with well-documented brands like Thunder Power, E-Tec, PolyQuest, or Tanic.

If you can afford it, try to get the highest "C" that you can afford, as it'll offer more flexibility in the long run, and if you run a 16C cell at 10C you will get far longer longeveity than a 10C at 10C! (but, be sure to read up on the specific cell to see if its "C" rating is real, or imaginary!)


I can personally vouch that the PolyQuest XP 1200 (16C) is an extraordinary cell, at a decent price. (incredibly low heat)

[Hovertime]

On an A-10 going BL is BIG $$!

- two BL motors $80 (temporarily on sale at $39.95 ea.)
- two 18A-25A controllers $140 (you -might- get one controller to work, but it needs to be much bigger)

Total: $220

That is a LOT of stock motors to go through!


Really, in the GWS A-10 the best bang-for-performance buck is a good, LIGHT, Li-Po pack. (new 16C or higher packs, like the PolyQuest XP 1200 in particular)


Fun!
I got 2 motors and 2 esc's for this bird for total of 90$ +5$ shipping :D : http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447796

[AirX]

The 4200kv motor will be the most fun on 3s, I run my EDF55 on a Hacker 4900kv motor and 3s in a Bandit(built from Nanobandit plans and scaled to fit) that will just about go vertical.

Cheers,

Eric B.

[JGuilty13]

I just recieved my new GWS A-10 for christmas, but i think the incorrect battery pack was ordered. Its the EDF 55 version w/300H motors. The battery is a 6 cell 7.2v/400mAh NI-CD and I was told this may not be strong enough for the fans. What battery would you best recommend for the STOCK A-10 setup. It will be used with an ElectriFly C-35 mini ESC. Thanks in advance.

[shschon]

I just recieved my new GWS A-10 for christmas, but i think the incorrect battery pack was ordered. Its the EDF 55 version w/300H motors. The battery is a 6 cell 7.2v/400mAh NI-CD and I was told this may not be strong enough for the fans. What battery would you best recommend for the STOCK A-10 setup. It will be used with an ElectriFly C-35 mini ESC. Thanks in advance.
Yes this is way under powered. That battery would only run the original EDF50 version and not very good at that either.

The best battery for 300H version is a 1500mAh 3 cell LiPo and you have to limit full throttle use to prolong motor life. Also get two heat sinks (the GWS red ones) to put on the motors also help save your motors from burning up too soon.

[JGuilty13]

How do you get the heat sinks onto the EDF motors?

[shschon]

How do you get the heat sinks onto the EDF motors?

That is quite easy. Slide them on from the rear of the motor that is protruding from the fan unit. It is a bit tight but a little patience would put it in.

[JGuilty13]

Im having some difficulty finding a 1500mAh 3 cell LiPo, can anybody point me in the right direction? Thanks

[JGuilty13]

After reading about a good amount of people saying that the A-10 is underpowered, ive decided to possibly order these new brushless EDF's from GWS ( http://www.gwsexpert.com/product_info.php?cPath=104_155&products_id=1008) Enough thrust to fly stright up at 13.7 OZ each. Electronics is not my specialty and i am still learning what goes with what. So maybe if some of you more experianced pilots out there could give me some advice on what types of batteries and ESCs i will need to power two of these fans i would greatly appreciate it.

[birdlives1955]

Hi, if I am using the A-10 with a GWS 7-cell 750mAh ni-mh battery pack, will it fly? The package says not to exceed 8.4v on the motors, so I thought this would do the trick, however after reading some of these posts, I am a little worried that I should be using a li-po pack. However, I didn't want to use a li-po pack because i didn't want to have to buy a li-po charger, so any aid on this subject would be greatly appreciated! ;) Thanks for the help!

[skyhawk]

What motors do you have?

[shschon]

Hi, if I am using the A-10 with a GWS 7-cell 750mAh ni-mh battery pack, will it fly? The package says not to exceed 8.4v on the motors, so I thought this would do the trick, however after reading some of these posts, I am a little worried that I should be using a li-po pack. However, I didn't want to use a li-po pack because i didn't want to have to buy a li-po charger, so any aid on this subject would be greatly appreciated! ;) Thanks for the help!


GWS is saving a pity few cents using the same manual with every version of A-10.

The "never exceed 8.4V warning" only applies to the original low voltage EDF50A version A-10.

In any other EDF version 8.4V is not enough.

LiPo charger can be really dirt cheap if you do not ask for too much fancy functions.

[shschon]

After reading about a good amount of people saying that the A-10 is underpowered, ive decided to possibly order these new brushless EDF's from GWS ( http://www.gwsexpert.com/product_info.php?cPath=104_155&products_id=1008) Enough thrust to fly stright up at 13.7 OZ each. Electronics is not my specialty and i am still learning what goes with what. So maybe if some of you more experianced pilots out there could give me some advice on what types of batteries and ESCs i will need to power two of these fans i would greatly appreciate it.


Unless you are looking for a "3D" A-10 you really do not need that much thrust.

Stock A-10 really flys fine when properoly built and tuned.

The brushless unit you buy gives you a lot of power but it also assumes even more power so you end up need to use much larger/expensive battery to power them and not to mention you need two brushless ESCs so you are throwing in probablly more than double the money. What you get is only faster top speed and much shorter flight time and much heavier plane.

Many posts that claims their stock A-10 underpowered either are ones that only fly rocket ships or one that did not set up their A-10 properly. A-10 does have a lot of quirks like thrust line, outdated manual recommending batteries that is too weak and CG issues. It is funny that for many people, when a plane does not fly well the first thing they do is declaring it "under powered".

[stacker]

I built and flew my at with edf55Hs and a 3 cell 1900 lith. pack and it flew quite well even at 4500ft. Plane would ROG real good and loop from level with no problem. I had about ten flights on it and then switched to two CD powered 55s but this was just for testing running two CD motors on one controller. I'd use the stock 55H setup if you have all the gear and fly it until the motors burn up, then if the plane is still alive and well, switch to a brushless setup if you are not happy.

Last summer we watched a guy show up at the field with his super brushless powered A-10, must have had a tonn of money in it esp. for the one flight that last all of 5 seconds before it got blown into millions of small pieces.

It's a great plane, but a real fragile one.

Cheers --- Stacker

[PoudreDerf]

Got my A-10. I'm thinking of putting solar cells on it for added oomph.

[JamesMH]

Can I use a brushless castle creations 18a speed controller with the EDF-55/300H fans?

Also I have a 1320 3s TP that I would run it on, would it be possible to run 2 batteries in paralel on it to get a 2640 mAh 3s?

[shschon]

Can I use a brushless castle creations 18a speed controller with the EDF-55/300H fans?

Also I have a 1320 3s TP that I would run it on, would it be possible to run 2 batteries in paralel on it to get a 2640 mAh 3s?


Depends a lot on which brushless motor you put in the EDF55 fan. You need two brushless ESCs one for each fan unless you wind your own CD-ROM motors that are identical.

Whether your 1320 TP battery can be used again depend a lot on which motor you use. BIG difference. Also note which generation of TP battery is yours. Again BIG Difference.

[JamesMH]

Depends a lot on which brushless motor you put in the EDF55 fan. You need two brushless ESCs one for each fan unless you wind your own CD-ROM motors that are identical.

Whether your 1320 TP battery can be used again depend a lot on which motor you use. BIG difference. Also note which generation of TP battery is yours. Again BIG Difference.

Hmmmmm I thought that the EDF55 was the motor but I gues that it is just the fan? Well I would gues the stock brushed motor which is the 300h? Or would I have to buy brushless to go with my speed controller?

As for the TP 1320 3s I believe that its the newest generation since I just bought it and it's rated at 11c or so continuous

[shschon]

Hmmmmm I thought that the EDF55 was the motor but I gues that it is just the fan? Well I would gues the stock brushed motor which is the 300h? Or would I have to buy brushless to go with my speed controller?

As for the TP 1320 3s I believe that its the newest generation since I just bought it and it's rated at 11c or so continuous


EDF 55 is just the fan. There are two kinds of stock brushed motors GWS put in the EDF 55 fan, 300H and 150 motor.

Stock EDF55 comes with brushed motors. If your ESC is brushless you need to get brushless EDF55 or buy a brushed ESC to go with stock motors. It is not trivial to remove the brushed motor if you have the stock fan. The easiest way is to buy ready installed brushless EDF55 (e-flightline and gws expert sell them) or buy brushless motor and fan parts to assemble your own brushless fan.

11c? That may not be the latest Prolite. The latest Prolite is rated 13C continuouse and 20C burst. The Prolite also come with cell balance tap. 11C sounds like older Gen II. Gen II came out only about one year ago so you can still buy them new from stores.

[pulsery2k1]

Hi

I read most gws idears about powering and flying this plane
the most important thing in any model is power to weight
ratio - I had seen several of these fly or try to fly.
I got a glider kit $35.00 for power to weight I used
to astro 010 bl duct fan set ups $210.00 and a 20c
1700 3 cell lipo - landing gear lite wheels flying weight
17.3 oz - will loop from level flight at half throttle
12- 15 min flights with battery to spare ,yes around
$300.00 ready to fly - but worth every penny

[sopwith99]

I have long thought about moving away from the brushed motors but never understood the hows and wheres about twin brushless motors. Can someone who is running a brushless setup detail the connections? My biggest questions are how do you hook up the ESC's and where do you plug the battery in.

Thanks,
Sop

[Allan Aguilar]

I also purchased a GWS A10 slope glider and 2 EDF55-300H motors before Christmas and I have not finished building the plane. I was browsing some other options for its power plant without spending a bunch of dollars, I came across a GWS 350C motor and based on the specs of that motor, this one have a higher KV and RPM but uses a higher amps. With that kind of specs for the 350's, I assume that this motor will outperform the 300H, however, I am not certain if this motor is timmed CW or CCW. I believe, the 300H is timed CCW (please correct me if I am wrong), my question now is, will the EPS-350C motor would be a powerful and economical option ? Anyone tried this option ? And what was your/their observation/s ?

Any response will be appreciated. :D ;)

[shschon]

I also purchased a GWS A10 slope glider and 2 EDF55-300H motors before Christmas and I have not finished building the plane. I was browsing some other options for its power plant without spending a bunch of dollars, I came across a GWS 350C motor and based on the specs of that motor, this one have a higher KV and RPM but uses a higher amps. With that kind of specs for the 350's, I assume that this motor will outperform the 300H, however, I am not certain if this motor is timmed CW or CCW. I believe, the 300H is timed CCW (please correct me if I am wrong), my question now is, will the EPS-350C motor would be a powerful and economical option ? Anyone tried this option ? And what was your/their observation/s ?

Any response will be appreciated. :D ;)

350 motor is not "more powerful" it just runs on lower voltage so maybe save weight by using 2 cell LiPo instead of 3 cell LiPo. If you put 350 motor in an EDF 55 then it will give you about the same thrust as the stock 300H on 3 cell. However it is less efficient and draw about double the Amp as 300H so flight time is shorter.

[pulsery2k1]

hi

I was testing diffrent motor setups before going brushless, and
found a 320f specal fan motor from PnSmodels@aol.com this
is a industrial motor that's made for 12 volts -3 cell lipo and
turns a fan at 35,000 rpm and draws only 8 amps - disavantage
it.s 1/2 oz more than a stock 300 but gives almost 9 oz trust
at 8 amps cost $29.00 and so far has over 50 flights and going strong
has advanced brush's I used with a a-10 cowl on hp tubro hawk
it fly great ,much lighter than hp 400 fan and very fast.

[shschon]

hi

I was testing diffrent motor setups before going brushless, and
found a 320f specal fan motor from PnSmodels@aol.com this
is a industrial motor that's made for 12 volts -3 cell lipo and
turns a fan at 35,000 rpm and draws only 8 amps - disavantage
it.s 1/2 oz more than a stock 300 but gives almost 9 oz trust
at 8 amps cost $29.00 and so far has over 50 flights and going strong
has advanced brush's I used with a a-10 cowl on hp tubro hawk
it fly great ,much lighter than hp 400 fan and very fast.

At $29 there are now several choices of brushless motors in the price range if you shop around. There are also cheap brushless ESCs that is about the same or cheaper than a good brushed ESC so you might as well go brushless. About the same money but more efficient and less hassle.

[roccobro]

And weigh less than the stock motor too.

Justin

[JGuilty13]

What battery would you guys recommend for the A-10 with the 300H motors that is NOT lipo? What is working good with this model? Thanks

[Hovertime]

I would follow GWS recommendations as far as cell size and count, and get a pack with best RC grade cells available now. AA size ?

[skyhawk]

8 cell GP 1100

AA's may work - but will not give the preformance and will die soon due to the current requirements. This pack is proven to fly this aircraft very well stock.

[birdlives1955]

Hey guys :) ,

I was just wondering, I've been thinking about going brushless with my A-10 EDF-55 with 300-H motors. The thing is, I think I'm going to get a brushless motor this summer for the F-15 pusher jet that I built recently, and I thought about getting an extra one and an extra esc for the a-10 so it could be a brushless jet too. However, it's a really big expense for two brushless motors/esc's, and although I'm fond of the videos I've seen using brushless set-ups on the A-10, I'm leaning more toward doing the li-po/brushed set-up for now. I also thing this would help me to get the jet a little bit more "under my thumbs" before going to a brushless set-up.

So, I was just wanting to know, would a Thunder Power 1350 pack rated at 13C constant, and 20C burst be a good pack for this jet? The issue is that the maker of the plans for the F-15 that I built suggests a 3 cell pack in the 1300-1500mAh range to get good performance on the jet (this is for weight issues.) I have seen that people have been suggesting larger packs than this for the A-10, such as a 2100mAh or so. Do I have to go with a pack this large, even if I there are smaller packs sich as the thunder Power 1350 rated at about 13C? Or will it not balance will a pack this small? Also, about how many flights can I get in with the li-pos before I can expect the motors to burn out?

Also, I have a promax cobalt 370 size motor. If I were to buy another one, would these motors using a 3 cell lipo generate more thrust? Sorry, the motorcalculator I usually use doesn't have EDF set-ups programmed into it. Thanks for your help, it is much appreciated! :)

-Matt

[localbuyer]

Hi All:

I am trying to convert a EDF55 300H to brushless but could not figure out how to remove the impeller. I got this picture from GWS's web site.
However, I could not find the the set screw on the impeller itself and having a hard time pushing the stuff out.


Are there different version of EDF55?

Thanks all

[feet dry]

localbuyer,

I believe that drawing is referencing their newer version EDF55. The rotors were just pressed on. Some people were having problems with the rotor flying off on higher powered motors. The new version does a much better job of keeping it on. See post #99 of this thread.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=484685&page=7&pp=15

John

[Extreme_RC]

Flew my A10 again tonight, chinese 3400Kv 14A 150 size brushless motors, about USD$35.00 each, and Hyperion 3s1800/20c pack.

Both motors draw 16 amps all up and battery maintains 11.3v flat out for the whole flight. Battery is just luke warm to touch after full discharge, this battery rocks, and is only 140 grams. I tried it on 4400Kv motors and it still maintained 10.5v and the fans screamed, until one burnt out :mad:

[tIANcI]

I just got my A10 done and will finally maiden her tomorrow, its got the new EDF55s and the stock 350 motors. I am going to run on a 3S lipo set up, anyone can tell me how long they think the motors will last? :)

[Extreme_RC]

If you are in KL probably not all that long unless you are very careful how much WOT you use. the humidity and heat will accelerate your wear as the ambient air temp is much higher. Good luck with it, is there any large groups of flyers in Malaysia?

[tIANcI]

Mocca - should have installed a nice brushless system! Its ok ... I will do my best to fly it scale. We have a great flying scene here despite having no designated flyig field and clubs. Try seeing us at RCU ... Clubhouse ... MalayAsian Hangar

[sopwith99]

tIANcI,
What size ESC are you using in your setup?

Sop

[tIANcI]

I maidened the A10 today and she has ample power to fly. Not superb but then its an A10 and not a pylong racer. The plane flies really nice but she is not like a glider, it likes a little speed. Controls are responsive. However, my GWS NARO RX is a POS! She glitched and the A10 needs a nose job. If I cannot build her I will get another for sure.

Sop - I am using an ACE 30A ESC, it was from my E Hawk glider. This is a nice plane to fly.

[sopwith99]

tIANcI,
Thanks for the info, my A-10 was way tail heavy and flew poorly on it maiden. At the time I did not have LiPos and was flying with kan1050's. Hope you are able to fix the nose on your'se!
Sop

[tIANcI]

Sop - its just a rhinoplasty job, hahahaha

[Extreme_RC]

Tianci did you use the same ESC and Rx in the E Hawk? And it never glitched?

I have been having some serious motor glitches with Blue Arrow ESC's, I fitted TowerPro ones into the A10 this weekend and it flew much smoother, seemed to be a little quicker and pulled less amps at the same time! Not one glitch the entire flight. With the Blue Arrow 18A esc's you could hear the motor glitch in and out 3-4 times per flight. Never lost radio though as I use my Futaba PCM, Rx is 25 grams heavier than my GWS 6NII reciever, but its safe!

[scubasteve787]

I have a GWS 6 Ch RX and it glitches in everthing I put it in. I just had to stop using it.

[birdlives1955]

just a quick note --

I have heard that if you run the reciever antenna perpindicular to the battery cable/motor wires, it will reduce interference. In other words, you could try running the receive antenna out along the edge of the wing instead of running it out of the roof of the fuselage and back to the tail. hope that helps.

-Matt

[birdlives1955]

Hey guys! Well, I flew my A-10 for the first time today! Boy that thing really flies well on 3S! I haven't hand launched many planes, so it took me some psyching up and some imaginary tosses to get ready to throw the jet........ I finally tried to throw it, I know that most of the time you're supposed to throw jets straight and level with the ground, but I just couldn't make myself do it and so I trew it up at about 15 degrees and pretty focrefully. I'm glad I did, because it started to dip down, but attitude was easily corrected and it began to climb out (SO MUCH FUN! :) ). I let the jet gain some speed and altitude and went into the first right turn, a nice slow bank that evened out easily with minimal altitude loss. I started down the field for the first run (WOT) I wanted to get a feel for the jet with a lot of throttle before I cut it back a little bit. The A-10 really picked up speed on the run and I was getting ready to make another right turn to make an upwind run when all of a sudden........NO FANS! The motors totally quit and I tried to bring it down softly, but I was going too fast, and the plane (with a 3S 2100mAh batt and a LOT of glue) was a little too heavy, so without power I was in a hopeless state. I applied elevator to try and get the jet to slow down and level out enough for a decent emergency landing, but I was just going too fast (I would estimate 40mph+) and the jet was losing altitude at an uncontrollable rate. It wasn't a perfect nose-dive, but I did hit the ground pretty hard.... It looked like a Nascar crash! :( I walked over to survey the damage, and actually it wasn't quite as bad as I thought. From where I was standing when it hit, it looked like the entire thing had just totally fallen apart into shreds. however, when I got there, I found that the jet had only separated in about 6 larger places, and thanks to Anthony's (Cdebaca's) unique polycyilic formuala, the breaks were pretty much nice and clean which will make the breaks easy to fix. :)

The thing is, I was using two GWS ICS-300 li-po ready speed controlls on the brushed system. My friend at the hobby store (a really nice guy) said that using one for each motor would work safely, but I guess they just weren't quite powerful enough to do the job.

Fortunately, my 3S batt wasn't damaged. that would've been a REAL drag because it's brand new. However, even though I crashed, it sure is at least cool to know that the plane will FLY!!!! :) Actually with that 3S pack, it is a lot faster than I expected. Hopefully I can get a new and more powerful ESC soon so I can try to fly it again.

Oh well, you learn something new everyday. The lesson for today was: Buy better equipment to save yourself lots of money (in the long run), save yourself lots of time (well repair time, at least), and save yourself lots of spare FOAM!!!!!!!!

Happy flying!

-Matt

[roccobro]

Congrats(?) on your flight. Sounds like your hooked now. ;)

Justin

[Extreme_RC]

Whats the total flying weight Matt??

I have heard bad things about GWS ESC's, they dont seem to take the amperage very well. Another bad thing is glitches from ESC's during flight, my Blue Arrow ones glitched 3-5 times every flight, and eventually aided in losing the undercarriage on one of my planes as it cut the power halfway into a flight, motor was only pulling 11A and when I pulled the battery it took 300mah back in, last time I flew I used 1100 out of the pack no problems, so the ESC's were getting worse. Bugger having a tiny electronic device worth a few bucks destroy a plane that took you weeks to finish!!

[WinginIt Jr.]

Re-Maiden today, didn't go so great. After deciding the Ni-MH batts were'nt powerful enough, decided to go 3S. Reprogrammed the ESC, and off we went. Everything was going great, then the motors cutoff. Was only about 15 seconds into the flight, didn't have much altitude (was pretty windy, was fighting it upwind a bit), so I got her turned and landed. Unfortunately on a rock, snapped one of the vertical stabs and elevators off. Easily repairable, but what made the motors shutdown? Back on the ground they started again, so I'm baffled. Using a 3S 1300mah battery, Castle Creation Pixie-20P ESC, and the stock 300H motors. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Got video, will capture tomorrow.

[Extreme_RC]

I had this happen with the Blue Arrow ESC in my funfly, 3-4 mins into a flight it just cut the power, had to glide in 50 yards or so away and the rough grass took my undercarriage LOL. Check your settings again for the cutoff voltage, although if it was me I would be wanting to try another ESC first! I gather this is a CC brushed controller? These have good reputations right?

[WinginIt Jr.]

yeah, it's a brushed controller.... went in yesterday and reprogrammed it for the Li-Po. I assume it has to be the ESC... I'll recheck the programming in it and see if I can find anything, but I doubt it. The only real programming is the cutoff voltage. Default is 5 volts, so I raised it to the highest setting for the Li-po, which is 8 volts if I remember correctly. Don't think that's what caused it. The battery was at 12.45V after the wreck.

[Extreme_RC]

The battery may have a static voltage of 12.45 after the flight, but what we really need to know is the voltage during that initial 15 seconds.

Here is my take on it:

Battery is 1300mah, can you tell us what the actual battery is, and its rated discharge etc?

On 3s LiPo the 300H motors are going to draw quite alot of amps, at 10.8v Nimh GWS claims they draw 7.1 amps each, so say your plane pulled 15-16 amps initially on a fresh LLiPo pack, and if the pack was not really up to it, the voltage sag would have come in hard, maybe just enough to trip the ESC.

When I set up 4400Kv 150 size motors in my A10 on the 1500mah 15c JP battery, the voltage sag on bench testing was huge, the battery dropped below 9v within about 5 seconds. This was because the amps being drawn were up in the region of 29, and the battery could only supply 22.5 const' max discharge.

[birdlives1955]

Mocca,

Hi! Hhhmmmmm......Really? That's too bad to hear that the GWS ESC's don't handle voltage very well. Actually, unfortunately I don't know the AUW of my jet, I don't have a digital scale. The plane is probably heavier than normal though because I put a coat of polycrylic on it, glassed ceartain fragile areas on the jet, and I'm almost done painting it, so I'm guessing it's probably about 3 oz. (+-) heavier than a normal A-10 would be. :) Actually, after I'm done painting the jet, I think I'll walk down to the post office to use their digital scale to measure the AUW of my jet. It's near the door, so I should be able to slip in and out of the post office really quickly without getting in too much trouble! :)

However, I don't think that was the cause of my problem. I actually had the same type of problem as Wing It, JR. did with his aircraft, the ESC cut the power very shortly (maybe 30 seconds) into the flight and I had a to make a landing that was way harder than any landing you'd ever want to make! :( But anyway, I was using two GWS ICS li-po ready esc's, so now I'm going to try a 30-amp GWS esc I have coupled with an FMA Direct Auto Cell-Detect low voltage cutoff device that I ordered yesterday. I probably should've done that in the first place because I already had the GWS 30-amp esc and the FMA Direct component is cheaper than the two li-po ready esc's that caused a crash. :)

Hopefully that 30 amp GWS ESC will be able to handle the power a little bit. I definitely don't think it's my battery, I have a Hyperion Litestorm 3S 2100mAh pack that's rated at about 33.3 amps continous discharge, and I think these packs are supposed to be able to hold their voltage very well. Hopefully it'll get another chance to power the A-10 after a few repairs an the arrival of the low voltage cutoff device(maybe for more then half a minute this time?! :) ).

I am actually really thankful that my pack was damaged during my really hard landing. The plane hit the ground right in the battery-compartment area, and my A-10 is a ll hollowed out there now to make room for the li-po pack that I'm using with the jet. It wasn't damaged at all, I think the Hyperion Litestorms are built with some good crash resistant material between the cells and the covering. Anyway, I can't wait to get this jet up in the air again, I hope the low voltage device arrives soon! It looks like it's going to be a beautiful sunny and 70 degree (farenheit) day this Saturday here in the Big Apple, so maybe if I wake up early enough to beat everyone to the park this weekend I can re-maiden the A-10!

You know, one of the really cool things about the GWS line of airplanes is that if you get to a point when you would like to purchase a new airframe, the slope glider kits are relatively cheap. After a while of flying the jet on the brushed/li-po set-up to get it under my thumbs, I would really like to get a brushless set-up for this jet. by that time my A-10's airframe will probably have some more battle sccars, so it would probably fun just to get a whole new slope glider kit to build and paint (they're only like 40 bucks). Also, I kind of rushed through the finishing process on this jet, it looks okay but it would be fun to try and take a lot of time to get a really smooth base to paint and do an airbrush job on the jet. The A-10 looks so cool in the air, and it's deserving of a better finishing job than the one I'm doing! I'm going to read up a little more on the finishing thread that J Morgan did about the thechniques he uses to finish a jet.

Actually, for the small amount of time that my a-10 was in the air, I feel that it flew really well. Hand-launching was a breeze with the 3S pack, altought on the next one I might use a little bit of up trim to help it to avoid dipping down so much right after launch. However, after the jet gained some speed and altitude, it flew very smoothly and the first (and only) turn of the flight was very smooth and I think it was pretty fast. I sure wish I had some high alpha coverage from and F-18 to help me avoid that enemy ESC fire though, things would've gone a lot more smoothly. :)

-Matt

[birdlives1955]

Congrats(?) on your flight. Sounds like your hooked now. ;)

Justin

Justin,

Yes, I'm totally addicted. I watch flight videos curing most of my free time during the day haha. :) I just love to watch people fly, and there are some amazing pilots here at the forum. Some of the EDF pilots here astound me, I don't know how some people can even keep up with their aircraft at the speeds they fly! :) I still can't get over the fact that a person can build a little model that will really fly!!!!! :) It's a lot of fun, and I think it's really cool that electric flight has come as far as it has. It's really nice to be able to fly quitely in a park without bothering people with a loud gas-powered airplane. Actually, I was flying in a city park here the other day, and I was really worried about being told to leave because I don't really know if it's legit to fly in parks around here. However, right before I launched the plane, two teeneagers cam screaming into the park doing wheelies on a couple of gas-powered four-wheelers!!!!!!!!!! :) Haha, I couldn't believe it, I mean they were just flying through the park's ball fields on these huge sport utility vehicles, and no one even seemed to notice! I felt a litttle better about trying to fly my little electric plane after that...... :)


-Matt

[gunracer]

i'm still running the stock 300s with 3s 2100 lipos and i'm more than happy with how she flies..when the 300s do burn out though, i'm not yet sure i want to go brushless...can anyone recommend some good replacement "brushed" motors...thanks in advance for any replies...

[roccobro]

Yeah, the stock ones. I might have a couple 150's if interested.

Any good brushed motor will be a little heavier than stock and cost about half of what a cheap BL will.

Justin

[gunracer]

alright...you talked me into it...i'll go the bl route when the 300s die...

[roccobro]

If the stockers work OK, just get some junked ones from the BL happy EDF-55 guys? It's all about having fun right? Would kinda suck if you put another $150 into your bird and it flew about the same, right? (I know, it would be faster) I know I have to get creative when I explain to the misses why I had to put another Franklin into a flying plane. :D

Justin

[gunracer]

i still have the pair of 300s from my frist a-10 which lasted five flights...assuming my second a-10 lives long enough to burn those out, i'll make the bl leap...thanks for all your help (and all the other contributors) on this edf and twin engine stuff...

[Blaze.45]

Wingit, it's your battery...... Mocca is right.

It's having to dish out so much power... that the voltage is sagging significantly... and it's hitting the LVC that shuts off the motors until you restart the throttle on the Tx.

The correct LVC for a 3-cell lipo is 9v or arguable slightly more.

Get a battery that can do at least 16Amps continous...... then try your plane. It should work much better.

Good luck

-Chris

[roccobro]

Chris and Mocca are right. I re-read your post and saw that it was a 1300 pack your using. My B-2 with the weaker 150 motors was drawing 12A on some old school 1300's back in 2004. Looking back at my records, the pack was seeing below 9v under load! The whole 3v/cell thing wasn't in vogue back then but when better motor wires were installed (stock one's melted @ connectors) amps went up again (didn't record #) probably about where the 300 motors draw normally. Now if your using some nice 1320 ProLites or newer 15C stuff, we could be certain it isn't the LVC kicking in. Couldn't hurt to buy some nice 1800-2100 cells that could be used in this and another aircraft too.

Justin

[Extreme_RC]

Mocca,
I have a Hyperion Litestorm 3S 2100mAh pack that's rated at about 33.3 amps continous discharge, and I think these packs are supposed to be able to hold their voltage very well.
-Matt

Matt, the Hyperion pack "should not" be the problem, I know the one you have, I was looking at the red CL2100 packs but decided on the CLX packs for EDF as they could maintain voltage sag better in high current BL setups.

Your pack is rated at 16c cont' max, which means it should hold 3.5v per cell at your current draw.

Why I say "should not" is becuase until you stick an Emeter on the system and actually see your voltage holding stable, you cannot rule out that the pack has a problem. I know its costly for guys on a budget, but the hyperion Emeter is worth its weight in gold as part of your RC workshop, but any 50 buck Emeter will tell you straight away if you are holding V, amp draw, and watts. Think of it as a long term investment in your hobby!! :D

[DHC-2T]

I second that :cool: :cool:
third that.

[WinginIt Jr.]

Thanks guys for the inputs - you're probably right. I suspected that. It was a cheapo battery that we had laying around. I haven't created any Deans to JST adapters to check the draw, but I will eventually to confirm. Then I'll get a better battery for it.

Thanks again!

[roccobro]

Uh, if your using JST connectors on anything on this bird, you're in trouble. Those connectors are not good for 10+A and will cause resistance, heat, and eventually melt. They has been the cause of more than a couple birds "not flying right".

Justin

[WinginIt Jr.]

I have no doubts that's not helping roccobro, but those are what came with the stock kit, and at that time I had no intentions of getting away from stock. If (more likely - when) I go to a brushless setup this will be among the things to go.

[Extreme_RC]

You should remove the wiring now, the motors are quite easy to remove while in the plane if you are careful. I would remove all the wiring and solder 18AWG silicon wire from motors right in up to the ESC. no connectors except some bullets connecting the wiring to the esc. then you can easily unplug ESC and slide motors out the back of the nacelles. You will loose many amps through the stock wiring, I tested it on the bench when I got my first A10 and the plugs got stinking hot after less than a minute of testing with Nimh batteries!

[Blaze.45]

Lets just say JST's should only be used in those little light up button pins that say "Vote for Pedro".

They're small, they're light.... they're convenient..... and they'll fail right when you like them most :p

Yet manufacturers still provide these stock in thier kits..... and then the unfortunate buyers wonder why the heck it lost power and crashed in mid flight... and won't work anymore. *cough-gws*......... :rolleyes:

:)

[Extreme_RC]

I have an actual A10 airframe question now, this weekend I am preparing a new slope kit for a super nice finished A10 using all I have discovered and all I have accumulated from other builders online.

Question is, after watching a dvd of the A10, I am wondering if those wing tips are just too damn big on the GWS kit??? They seem to hang down ALOT more than the real A10, % wise.. Would we not get better flight performance from reducing the underhang by about half so they better match the original design?

I intend to sand back the trailing edge of both the wing and rear stab, I will assemble the body up and slide everything in place so as to mark out the position of the parts, then I plan to sand back to areas not covered by the body so as to reduce the thickness of the trailing edges. Create a better shape and then replace the ailerons and elevators with super light balsa that will be thinner than the foam, with much thinner trailing edges on the control surfaces. Will all be attached with Great Planes CA hinges for an invisible join.

The elevators I intend to join together with a piece of carbon fibre rod epoxied into each one, rather than the flimsy wire. I may just replace the wire with thicker, depends on weight of each idea.

This A10 will have alot of foam removed inside the fuse so I can position things where I would have liked to in the old A10! :) It will be glassed over with a light coat of Poly and the 25g glass.I found the bracing in the old one was pointless once it was glassed, if it crashes it dun matter wether it has bracing or not, its gona break regardless, but with the glass it can be landed easily on grass with no damage, and if it does break the glass gives you very clean break lines, when my first one burnt a motor vertical and came in hot the breaks were clean and the nose was not even crushed due to the glass!!

This slope kit has far better foam quality than my first kit, the moulding is even and much smaller foam cells. Should make a good plane!

[WinginIt Jr.]

Yeah, I'm pondering changing the whole setup in it. Have to wait and see what happens.

Heres the video from the flight. Video (http://www.thehaggards.net/Video/Ohio Trip April 06/A-10 Maiden.wmv)

[roccobro]

Is that the first "re-maiden" or on from today? Looks like it was tail heavy or too much elevator throw-very porpoise like. Did it shut down in flight? I couldn't hear on the video but heard "dead stick" before the forced landing. Whats the AUW as it flew? Didn't look too bad on T/O for an A-10.

Justin

[WinginIt Jr.]

That was the first re-maiden on Li-Po power. All my other attempts were on Ni-MH and it never went anywhere.

It's actually about 1/4 or 1/3 ounce nose heavy. It did have a lot of up in it, my previous attempts it's always nosed in, even with the CG way back, so I was trying to combat that. It was 23 ounces with the 1300 battery in it for that flight. On landing the tail snapped, as it hit a rock.

[gunracer]

wing, jr.

mine weighs 23.8 oz...i'm also using the stock 300h motors...with a 15c 3s 21oo lipo, it takes off like yours did but then climbs out nicely and has enough power to do a lot of aerobatic manuevers...flight times are about 7-8 mins...fix her and try a larger batt...

[WinginIt Jr.]

Yeah, that's the first plan. Gonna stick a TP2100 in it until the 300s burn up. Fixing the tail is no problem, just gotta get around to it.

Did you have to put a bunch of weight in the nose? I think I put 2.5 or 3 ounces in there. Gonna pull some back out as it's nose heavy, but that just seemed like a lot to me.

[gunracer]

2.5-3.0 oz is a lot...i added .3 oz to get the cg at 55mm...without it the cg is at 60mm...how do you have your battery compartment set up?...if you do the canopy hatch mod, you can move your battery as far forward as needed to get your cg right without having to add dead weight...good luck...

[Smark]

Hi Folks. I've just purchased an GWS A10 and I'm after a bit of advice / info. I know from experience with some of my other planes the advantages of brushless / lipo setups but I'm trying to keep the cost down on this one by robbing my parts bin and using the standard motors. My first question involves batteries. I'd like to know if anyone has had success with NiMH power in their A10? One of the reasons I ask is that just as Lipo batteries have come on tremendously recently, so have NiMH batteries. Last week, I bought a 1200 7 cell NImh pack for my GWS Formasa and I'm amazed at how better it is compared to other packs (eg1050 Kan). It's also lighter.
Whilst it doesn't exactly give unlimited vertical performance, I get 12 minutes of spirited flying out of it. I was thinking of an 8 cell 9.6v 1200 pack (same brand). Would this be ok for the A10 in terms of reasonable performance and duration?
My second question is about covering / glassing. I've never covered a foam model like this before. I like to build light but could anyone give me some advice as to the weight / grade of glass to use. Has anyone used an alternative like tissue paper with polycrylic? Is it best to fill in all the gaps for the panel lines etc? If so, what is the best filler to use on foam?

Simon

[Extreme_RC]

If you wana stick with stock motors forget about glassing it! use CF strip in the wings all the way out to the tips, same inside body and stabs etc. If you want to use Nimh then you gona have to keep it real light in order to have any sort of emergency power there. Most guys with stock motors have best success with small 3s LiPo's, if you get yourself something like Hyperion 3s1500mah 20c you will end up using it on all your planes. the TP1320 is also getting good reports in the A10 etc with stock motors. Both these batteries are very light and suited to stock A10's.

[skyhawk]

If you got the 150 motors - it may work depending on how good the batteries are. 8 GP 1100's fly a stock 300 powered a10 just fine.

[gunracer]

smark,

concur with the above...also, with the stock 150 or 300 motors, i wouldn't bother with cf spars in the wings...even with a 3s 2100 lipo, my plane with the 300 motors doesn't fly fast enough to cause me any wing folding concerns...the only things i've reinforced are the nacelles and the bottom of the vert stabs...i "glassed" both areas with thick ca...

as to your batt question, you really to get your set up on a watt meter...you need to find out if your batt will discharge enough amps to get you the watts you need to get her flying...fwiw, i've also flown mine with a 9 cell 10.8v 1000 mah nimh batt (from my pz p51) and she flies ok...a little sluggish but ok...