group order: 40mm dia,18slot laminations. Turned parts can now be ordered.

[Ron van Sommeren]

Ralph Okon (a.k.a. www.powerditto.de) is putting together a group order for 40mm. diameter, 18pole statorlaminations. A minimum order of 5000 laminations is needed to start a production run. Minimum order per person is 50. One 0.20mm lamination (NO20 iron quality) will cost 0.5€. Flux ring and frontplates will probably also be available by then. Keep in mind, this is not a business for Ralph, he's in the business of curing people :)

More info, drawings:
http://www.powercroco.de/crocogrund.html

You can place your order here:
www.neodyme-magneten.de
-> shop
-> English flag

David Theunissen's Crocodile pages, lots of info:
http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/
-> diy brushless motors
-> Crocodile motors

Ralp Okon's Crocodile pages (English & German)
www.powercroco.de

Wolfgang Mrotzek's Crocodile pages:
http://goldeneye.ethz.ch/motoren/electric/index_EN
-> Motore
-> electric engines
-> Krokodil

Infrared camera video from Wolfgang's site, 1.7MByte
http://goldeneye.ethz.ch/motoren/electric/crocodile/bilder/thermokroko.mpeg

Original German thread:
http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=88112

'Crocodile' subforum, in German but they don't mind posts in English:
www.rclineforum.de
-> E-Motoren, Regler & Steller
-> Projekt Crocodile



edit: added www.neodyme-magneten.de and several homepages

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron van Sommeren
• diy motor building tips & tricks (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240993)
• diy outrunner discussion group (http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/lrk-torquemax)
• int. E fly-in & diy outrunner meet (http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans/), August 28th, Nijmegen, the Netherlands


http://www.neodyme-magneten.de/shop/catalog/images/croco-10mm.gif

[olmod]

If people right click on the link and select translate it works ok.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[dicker]

heya - I'm registered here ;)

just found out ;)

well, I tried my best to translate the page, the english version is linked on top of the german site.

yours Julian

[flybike]

Are they really only .2 mm thick?

I'm tempted to order some. Would you be able to ship some to the US?

Thanks,
-Hans

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Ron van Sommeren]

@Hans/Flybike
The thinner the better: less (parasetic) eddy current losses, higher efficiency.

[eternauta3k]

So all 50 (not counting wrapping and maybe whatever separates them) add up to 1cm?
:eek:

[powerditto]

:confused:

[David T]

I may have missed it but what is the size of the inside hole? (for the bearing).

[powerditto]

:confused:

[David T]

Ralph, have you considered a larger bore to take more robust bearings? I'm interested in swinging larger props (20-24 inches) in scale planes and it appears to me that I would have to use an 8x12mm bearing on the 'bell' end. These are at the bottom of the load range. A 16 or 18mm bore would allow 7x14 or 8x16mm bearings which can handle significantly greater loads.
Your views? Regards, David.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[powerditto]

:confused:

[ozzie111]

Ok, I just ordered the minimum number because I just don't want
to be left out. This looks like a truly exciting project. Do I need to order more?

Can you give some more details about the motor you have in mind?
I'm not really technical so I'm looking for Power converted in a way
I can understand. Will swing XX x XX prop. Is equivalent to X spec. motor
Will fly X helicopter. What kind of maximum Watts?
When will cans be available? Will there be a tutorial for this specific motor?

Thanks for the info.

Oz

[Ron van Sommeren]

@Oz
You can find info on 18slot statormotors here:
www.powerditto.de

This is the current design status of the lamination, Julian Wingert (user 'Dicker') is still optimising it. Others are working on the rest of the motor design.

[Happy|Harry]

what a great project! just placed my order. for those who have not checked ralph's site recently here are the pictures of the proposed can :cool:

http://www.powerditto.de/crocodile-projekt/glocke1.jpg
http://www.powerditto.de/crocodile-projekt/glocke2.jpg

thanks for heading this project ralph!

phil

[Quacker]

Ron:

How many watts do you think the Croc will be good for?

[powerditto]

:confused:

[David T]

I don't think anyone knows what's achieveable until we start making some motors. However I'm running a 5x43mm 12 tooth stator at 400W without any noticeable heat buildup http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/motors.htm
Regards, David.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

great news ralph!. here's the new pics for those who are not rcline members

phil

[powerditto]

:confused:

[ohmite]

Ok, I'm in! I won't let this pass without the opportunity to build one too. Do you think you will be offering the rotor too or just the design for it and we will have to make it ourselves? Please keep updating the english site, mein Deutsch ist nitch so gut!


the order - phase will end at friday 22.jul at 24.00 middle european summer time.
what's this in your time?


If that is the same time Milano Italia is on then that would be 1800 east coast US and 1500 west coast US.

Vielen dank!
-Eric

[Ron van Sommeren]

... I'm interested in swinging larger props (20-24 inches) ...Having seen your 'monster models' list, that hardly comes as a surprise David :D:
http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

[David T]

Just been to La Ferte Alais. Not electric but they do BIG models. I typically only go up to 9 foot wingspan (electric of course!).

I have a half-built 7 foot Piper Trainer; a nice 'Croc' should fit and perhaps inspire me to finish the model.
David.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[CrazEflyer]

Hi,

I was wondering how many laminations I would need to handle 3600 watts, and has any one found a good source for magnets for the "croc".

Thanks, Andrew

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

ralph your english is much better than google or babbelfish's translations of german lol. and with the FEMM optomised stator design made using very thin laminations of high quality material the Croco is guaranteed to perfom very well!. is there any information or drawings for that stator carrier? eg what size bearings? and i see from the drawings an 8mm shaft, will these be sourced along with the bells and magnets? or will we have to source these parts ourselfs?

phil

[powerditto]

:confused:

[David T]

Ralph, on your web site you say "The middle part should be made from steel too". Can you confirm please that you mean the stator holder that the bearings go into. I normally make this from aluminium; does it improve efficiency to make it from iron?
Thanks, David.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Ron van Sommeren]

there will be produced special magnets - in the masses(?) which DIETER WÜRTEMBERGER will find as optimal in his FEMM- magnetfield simulations. sandra (www.neodyme-magnete.de) will sell them... One 'n' is missing in the link Ralph:
http://www.neodyme-magneten.de/

[Ron van Sommeren]

Ralph, on your web site you say "The middle part should be made from steel too". Can you confirm please that you mean the stator holder that the bearings go into. I normally make this from aluminium; does it improve efficiency to make it from iron?Thanks, David.There is hardly any magnetic flux in that part of the motor David, therefore from a magnetic point of view, it makes no difference what material you use.

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

[DavidB.]

Some of the drawings for the the stator plates appear to have holes in the center. Is FEMM being used to assure the stator isn't saturating around the holes?

[powerditto]

:confused:

[powerditto]

:confused:

[CrazEflyer]

Hi,

I am very interested in ordering 180-200 stator plates but I was wondering if you or http://www.neodyme-magneten.de/ are going to produce the can and if so how much. I was also wondering how much will the magnets be.

Thanks, Andrew

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

i do hope there is a standard reached for the stator carrier but if worst comes to worst i know of a few sources here at rcg who may do a limited run of cans and stator carriers for us, the design work has already been done for us for the can, and i'm sure that ralph will make dxf/dwg drawings available for the can and some kind of mount?, if not i can draw up a mount if we who will be needing parts can agree on a design.

phil

[chichisport]

Sorry me to jump too late:

Can the stator plates be machined with laser or other cnc machines ?

How can it be insulated before cutting?

Cheers.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

thanks for the updates ralph. making a modular stator carrier is an excellent idea! this should help keep the costs for machining these parts to a minimum as all will need a top and bottom piece only a different length tube. are you planning on trying to make the can modular too?

phil

[dvk44039]

just stumled on this thread as haven't been on computer much nice weather for flying just placed order hope I can get in on this sounds like shoould be stong runner.
thanks. don

[Ron van Sommeren]

the production of this very thin plates will be made by (stanzen?) ...punching

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Ron van Sommeren]

Maybe Julian could send a message to all who ordered plates?

[powerditto]

:confused:

[ozzie111]

Hello,

I just went to the site for the cans etc. I have a question. I ordered
50 stator plates, but I don't know how thick that will build into, so I
don't know what can etc to order. Can someone advise me?

Thanks,

Oz

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

50 laminations will do a 10mm stack or 2 x 5mm stacks. (it will actually be slightly more than 10mm per 50 lams due to the insulation used on the laminations). so what size motor do you want to build? by reading above a 5mm stack will be good for ~200-300W and around double that for a 10mm stack.

phil

[Thomas Radetzki]

Yes, 50 laminations will be a little bit more than 10mm cause isolation plates and maybe the glue.

Just as a hint for some who entered same amount of isolation plates as already orderes laminates: The laminates are completely isolated. Isolations plates you need only 2 per stack.

Up today there are two "strange" numbers of isolation plates in the database. I'll email the two "outliers" this weekend.


To correct or change your entries just enter Croco-Power (http://www.croco-power.de)

[powerditto]

:confused:

[hpgpeter]

hello poweditto
I have a stator of 40.4mm of diameter and 12 polos 14 magnet
you can say which to me the best form to roll the stator so that I
have in the maximum 200w.
mine speed is of 20A and the battery of 1800mah 3C I use 9,6V
which the wire and how many turns??

thanks

Peter - Brazil

[Happy|Harry]

Yes, 50 laminations will be a little bit more than 10mm cause isolation plates and maybe the glue.

Just as a hint for some who entered same amount of isolation plates as already orderes laminates: The laminates are completely isolated. Isolations plates you need only 2 per stack.

Up today there are two "strange" numbers of isolation plates in the database. I'll email the two "outliers" this weekend.


To correct or change your entries just enter Croco-Power (http://www.croco-power.de)

thanks for the update thomas, i read on rc line about those who had ordered the same amount of insulation plates as they had laminations lol. hopefully they will realise their mistake and correct their order.

how many individual orders are there thomas?

phil

[Happy|Harry]

and the german site is updated today. there you can see the actually design of croco- motor.


viele grüsse,
ralph

www.powerditto.de

the design looks excellent ralph!:cool:, the guys at rcline have come up with a great solution. my only concern is that the shaping and laser etching of the mounting plate is an unnecessary expense. do you know how many Croco's will be built in total from the first order yet? as i want to know how exclusive they will be :D

phil

[powerditto]

:confused:

[dicker]

the design looks excellent ralph!:cool:, the guys at rcline have come up with a great solution. my only concern is that the shaping and laser etching of the mounting plate is an unnecessary expense. phil

The front shield, including material costs (titanium!) will cost about 8 to 10 Euro. and about 50% of that price is material costs...
It is, in fact cheaper to laser all this tiny little lines and images, the shape and the centerholes for the 2x ISO M5 winding, than milling a round plate with 2 holes out of titanium.
So if cheaper and prettier is not better :) - i don't know

yours Julian

[Happy|Harry]

thanks for the info guys!, and i completely agree that cheaper and prettier is much better :D, tbh i thought the prices would have been the other way around!

so who from the EZone is participating in this project? and what size motors are you planning to build? myself i'll be building both a 5mm and 10mm motor (though i'll have enough laminations left over for another 5mm motor later), the 5mm motor will be used in my Aerolock Models 1/8th scale Pitts M12 (http://www.aerolockmodels.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=19), and i'm planning to mount the 10mm in an RWDRC.com 1:10.9 scale Hawker Seafury (http://www.rwdrc.com/RWDRC_web_site/Sea_Fury.html). what are you guys planning to mount your Croco's in?.

phil

[Happy|Harry]

i thought i'd re-post these pics here as they are way cool :D

phil

[morphs]

I know I am a little late, but can I still get in on this?? Did anybody in the USA order extra?? I would like to build a couple 20mm thick motors.

-Jon

[powerditto]

:confused:

[morphs]

Thanks man, I just placed my order for 100. This is going to be a fun project.

-Jon

[ohmite]

phil,
Thanks for the pictures. I am also expecting to participate in building one or two of these. I ordered 100 (I guess you did too), so I assume I can make 2 5mm and 1 10 mm motors or 2 10mm motors or 1 20mm motor. Call me dense, but I'm having trouble finding all the details on the rest of the parts. I have my password from croco-power.de, but I'm not sure what I should be ordering at this point. Can you help? My German is not the best and the only part of the site that is current with the info has not yet been translated. I might take a stab at babelfish tomorrow at work (too hard to deal with dial up right now).

I've built several cdrom motors and am about to tackle a LRK motor, and this looks like a good next step. It sounds like the 5mm motors are 200-300 W and the 10mm motors will be 400-600W?

Thanks for any help you can provide.
Regards,
-Eric

thanks for the info guys!, and i completely agree that cheaper and prettier is much better :D, tbh i thought the prices would have been the other way around!

so who from the EZone is participating in this project? and what size motors are you planning to build? myself i'll be building both a 5mm and 10mm motor (though i'll have enough laminations left over for another 5mm motor later), the 5mm motor will be used in my Aerolock Models 1/8th scale Pitts M12 (http://www.aerolockmodels.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=19), and i'm planning to mount the 10mm in an RWDRC.com 1:10.9 scale Hawker Seafury (http://www.rwdrc.com/RWDRC_web_site/Sea_Fury.html). what are you guys planning to mount your Croco's in?.

phil

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Ron van Sommeren]

Ralph, Julian, any idea where all the other 'partners in crime' come from, geographically speaking?

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

phil,
Thanks for the pictures. I am also expecting to participate in building one or two of these. I ordered 100 (I guess you did too), so I assume I can make 2 5mm and 1 10 mm motors or 2 10mm motors or 1 20mm motor. Call me dense, but I'm having trouble finding all the details on the rest of the parts. I have my password from croco-power.de, but I'm not sure what I should be ordering at this point. Can you help? My German is not the best and the only part of the site that is current with the info has not yet been translated. I might take a stab at babelfish tomorrow at work (too hard to deal with dial up right now).

I've built several cdrom motors and am about to tackle a LRK motor, and this looks like a good next step. It sounds like the 5mm motors are 200-300 W and the 10mm motors will be 400-600W?

Thanks for any help you can provide.
Regards,
-Eric

hi eric, it's good to see that there is indeed another EZoner partaking :D, tbh i'm VERY! surprised at the slow uptake on this project from the ezone:confused:.

yeah i too ordered 100 laminations and as posted above i'm planning a 5mm and a 10mm motor, so for the ordering of the machined parts i will need one of each part (can, magnet set, bearing set and shaft) for each separate motor i want to build, so i have "1" in every box in both the 5mm and 10mm columns. i also ordered 6 stator insulators (i'll only need 4 initially but i need 2 more for the 5mm stack of lams left over). the thing is, the Croco-power.de site is only to gauge interest in turned parts not actually ordering them, and i think they will use a more detailed ordering system if they do decide to make the machined parts.

going by what others are running similar diameter 12Tooth stators at i think 200-300W at good efficiency per 5mm stack is possible, but who knows?, one thing is for sure it will be fun to find out :D. it's also worth noting that the croco will not be an LRK being that it has an 18 tooth stator. for more info on 18 tooth stator based motors and the possible winding options have a look at Ralph's site, loads of excellent info there :D

phil

[Happy|Harry]

today we sent a mail to all project members.
please sent your agreement with the written conditiones as fast as you can to :


Juli@nWingert.com



viele grüsse,
ralph


www.powerditto.de

ralph i just checked the updates on the german Croco page and i'm kind of confused (that is mostly due to my lack of german and google/babelfish's awfull translations) as you show a picture of holger's latest motor which iirc was based on a 20mm dia stator? then there are some new renderings showing a new front plate that caters only to those who wish to use a folding prop, this is not a motor design that all can use?.

can you give us an update as to where the discussion is regarding the turned parts and it's design? ie:are the pictures i copied from your site and posted above the final Croco design? or are the new renderings the final design? as to be completely honest the pictures posted above is a better choice imo

phil

[Thomas Radetzki]

the Croco-power.de site is only to gauge interest in turned parts not actually ordering them, and i think they will use a more detailed ordering system if they do decide to make the machined parts.
Yes. Totally right. :)

@Ron
US, UK, Germany, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Niue ( :D ), Austria, France, some .net and .com
Really international. :)

[Ron van Sommeren]

... surprised at the slow uptake on this project from the ezone:confused:. ...Patience grasshopper ;) Just wait until you have posted your results with this motor.

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

[ScubaSteve]

ron/ralph,

pm me if you guys are interested. i can possibly use my contacts to get both magnets and laminations MUCH cheaper. should also have no problem getting them preinsulated. imagine a 40mm stator 18-pole stator that looks like a GB 22.7mm stator. ;)

[powerditto]

:confused:

[shaneyee]

I hope, you talk too about 0,2mm thick laminations made from the newest thyssen-krupp high tec material?
or from hand hammered tin iron from china or india cutted by children?

viele grüsse,
ralph



Its unnecessary to disparage other countries.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[shaneyee]

I dont think you know much about China or India but I'd rather not discuss it either so if you delete that sentence, I will delete my post.

Shane

[Ron van Sommeren]

ron/ralph, pm me if you guys are interested...Steve, I'm not into this project, I only did some PR for it ;) It's Ralph, Thomas, Julian, Holger, Helmut and others. Initially, Ralph and Julian are/will be forking out the money to get this project of the ground.

Vriendelijke groeten ;) Ron

[Happy|Harry]

I hope I'am be able to continue the translation today.
(EDIT)
It's done. only short. there are enough pictures on the german site.
(/EDIT)
all these pictures are only part of the ongoing discussion.
and there is no end....
we want to find I design, which is usefull and payable for all project members.

viele grüsse,
ralph

www.powerditto.de

thanks for the update ralph :cool:

phil

[hpgpeter]

Hello

here in Brazil has vary manufacture lamination.

example prices 1 lamination slicon steel 40mm - 12slot - 0,5mm = $0,04 minimum 5000 .....I have 1500 40mm and 200 35mm for my test motor 12 slot.

comes to know Brazil


Peter - Brazil

[powerditto]

:confused:

[hpgpeter]

POWERDITTO
"brazil is a lovely country with nice places which are shown to the visitors.
but which of the favelas we should visit at first?"

I believe that you do not know Brazil, if it knows is only looking at the television,
you must also believe that here has only indios and carnaval hehehe.... studies more the history and economy of brazil. you is intelligent and it goes to obtain to understand because many people live in the "favelas".
I wanted to say that here in Brazil exist some steel industries low prices.
I do not know if here he exists newest high-tech thyssen-krupp special steel.
I go to search here university UNICAMP
good luck with its super motor

Heinz Peter - Brazil

[ScubaSteve]

@ steve

this isn't a 22mm GB- (micro)motor!
I hope, you talk too about 0,2mm thick laminations made from the newest thyssen-krupp high tec material?
or from hand hammered tin iron from china or india cutted by children?

viele grüsse,
ralph


:eek: Umm... i was merely offering to help using my overseas contacts.

As for the material, no, our GB stators are made from a super-rare material that I was given by aliens from another galaxy - shipping is pretty expensive as you can probably imagine. There was some cheaper stuff I could have gotten from Mars, but alas it was "cutted" by Martian children, and I just know i wouldn't be able to sleep at night..... <rolls eyes>

LOL are you serious though? Hand-cut stator laminations? You caught me, our stators are indeed made by poor children with really tiny hands and really tiny scissors...

Last time I try to offer some friendly assistance. Good luck with your venture though.

[powerditto]

:confused:

[Happy|Harry]

hey guys can we leave the politics out of this place!, this is my hobby and i come here to read, and more importantly to enjoy what i read, and believe me the last few posts are not enjoyable to read :(

phil

[ScubaSteve]

@Ralph,

I understand your goal by having these stators stamped in Germany, as far as your concerns regarding cheap labor. I think it's a bit different situation though - we're not buying Nike tennis shoes or Kathy Lee's clothing line, it's machine-stamped iron laminations. For an industrial product, most companies go to an industrial sector of the world. I'm not too sure that China or Taiwan counts as third world.

I dunno, either way, I've said my piece. I wish you luck in your venture. I'm sure the stators will be high quality and worth the price. Wish I could have helped.

@Phil - I should have known better anyway. I'll zip my lips and hopefully we can get the thread back OT.

[Thomas Radetzki]

Please slow down guys.
What's going on here??? In my opinion (and i'm really not interested if laminations are stamped German or something else; I just help out with the website and the programs to make it run) the croco motor is an experiment to get the best power with the best material without relying on the big companies. Therefore i ordered laminates too.
If afterwards some people say: OK, nice motor, but these ??? percent are not enough to pay more as for a motor with common parts.
Ok, that's fine for me. But i want to be part of the first try to build a 1st class motor for less than a ready build motor of same size.......which would be 2nd class afterwards.

Politics? Please forget about this here. Please!

[powerditto]

:confused:

[ScubaSteve]

@ralph

Sorry, didn't realize those were questions directed to me.. thought they were rants;) I can touch base with our factory overseas to see if they can be of assistance. I now understand what you are asking and getting at and I'll see what I can dig up. Sometimes comments and remarks get misunderstood when crossing the language barrier!:) If our factory makes them, they'll be almost assuredly stamped in China, not Germany. Probably the same stamping machine made by the same company - only in China the folks operating the machine probably don't make as much money as the German operating it.

I betcha Justin Gatlin's shoes were assembled in India. ;) Just poking fun, not instigating hehe.

I am subscribing to this thread and can't wait to see progress made.

No more politics. Just anticipation. ;)

v/r, steve

[dicker]

Thats exactly the Problem - the Machine costs the same, and there is no Operator needed. Therefore it cant be much cheaper than in Germany, or am I wrong? :)

This is the same Problem we are currently discussing internally in here. If you want the same quality, and the same base Materials, and the same machining, you can stay where you live - it doesnt matter.
I'm not saying chinese workers are not as good as german workers, or they produce a lower quality product, but in fact there are one or two german factorys who are able and willing (and that is not the standard in theese special requirements for our plates) to produce this small quantity for this low price without depending on getting reorders in twice the same amount to reddem theyr costs :)
Now China is big - probably there are more than two factorys... But who knows them? I don't want to do the die tryouts for them ;)

So I and Ralf decided to let a german factory do the work. This factory has done much more complicated stator plates alredy for me, so I trust them they make this plates as perfekt as we need them.

I hope we all like each other again :)

yours Julian

[Spaceclam]

hi guys,
i am experimenting myself with the 56mm 24 pole vcr motors, and am curious as to what the FEMM thing is that you say will optimize performance, who does it, and how much does it cost?
Cheers,
-Clam

[ScubaSteve]

@julian

LOL hey piece of mind is invaluable! that's why we keep a lot of our fabrication done in the US. when in doubt, we drive to the shop. not so easy to fly to Asia everytime I get a wild hair you know where. ;)

[ScubaSteve]

Update?:D

[powerditto]

:confused:

[OhmB1Kenobe]

With all this talk about special metals in the laminations and cost to be ignored, how many of you are going to oxygen free copper for your windings???

[Ron van Sommeren]

Go ahead, make a solid one piece stator from tin can iron :D

[olmod]

Ohmb1kenobe ,,Everyone :D

[ScubaSteve]

sounds good ralph. with all your research, you have any rough estimates regarding the RPM/torque trade-off between 12p vs 18p stators? Interested to see how this compares to the Torcman Triton.

[powerditto]

:confused: