Research Park Renegades (Huntsville, AL)

[atjurhs]

Well sorry I missed you all - my wife went out with her running buddies this morning leaving me to watch the kids.

I took my SS with a dead 350C motor to Rick's and he said, "Well I guess that 1147 prop was just to much for that motor." He then proceeded to sell me a new motor and 1047 prop, and recommended NOT using the 9.6v 900 mAh NiMH battery. So he also sold me another 7.4v 1000mAh LiPoly battery. I kind of thought it was cheesy of him not to replace the motor for free when it was his recommendation to use that prop/motor/battery combo, but in his defense, he did NOT tell me it was ok to use the 9.6v 900 mAh NiMH battery, and he did give me a 10% discount.

Anyone want to buy a 9.6v 900 mAh NiMH with about 1/2 a dozen cycles run through it? I paid Rick $30 for it two weeks ago, but I'll certainly sell it for a lot less just to recoup some of the money :)

[guapoman2000]

Well sorry I missed you all - my wife went out with her running buddies this morning leaving me to watch the kids.

I took my SS with a dead 350C motor to Rick's and he said, "Well I guess that 1147 prop was just to much for that motor." He then proceeded to sell me a new motor and 1047 prop, and recommended NOT using the 9.6v 900 mAh NiMH battery. So he also sold me another 7.4v 1000mAh LiPoly battery. I kind of thought it was cheesy of him not to replace the motor for free when it was his recommendation to use that prop/motor/battery combo, but in his defense, he did NOT tell me it was ok to use the 9.6v 900 mAh NiMH battery, and he did give me a 10% discount.

Anyone want to buy a 9.6v 900 mAh NiMH with about 1/2 a dozen cycles run through it? I paid Rick $30 for it two weeks ago, but I'll certainly sell it for a lot less just to recoup some of the money :)

Please measure your models Amp draw before flying any model with a questionable setup or a setup that you don't know for certain will or will not exceed the ESC, Battery, or Motor maximums.

As an example check out my Sport Planes section for measuring Amp, Watt, and Voltage under load parameters and this will take out the guess work and avoid buying motor/gearbox units because of burned up brushes. :rolleyes:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354029&page=6#post4079018

I highly recommend to get yourself a Watt meter or at least a clamp around meter of some sort to get an accurate actual Amp measurement.

[atjurhs]

Sounds like a good plan to me!

Can any of the Huntsville local guys help out with this?

[dee-grose]

I've got a clamp-on meter that you can test your setup with.

For reference though, here's what I've seen. On a SS with a stock GWS 300 motor and a stock 10x8SF prop, you're gonna pull no more than 8 amps. Ghee and I used to fly some 8-cell 650mAh packs on our 350 motors in our Formosas, but they burned out the GWS ICS-300 speed controllers, so we quit flying them. That was before we could measure the amp draw.

I'll echo what Carlos was saying above about checking out your setup or at least knowing what your current draw is. If you mess up really bad, you're gonna have your lipo pack go postal on you and burn up your plane (or worse). I like to stick to setups that have been tested and proven by those before me. That kinda takes the guesswork out of it.

dee

[atjurhs]

I'd sure like to borrow it, perhaps you can give it to your Dad, and he can bring it in to work for me.

BTW, I thought I was sticking to a proven system when I went with Rick's recommendation. But at least now I know I'm on the 350C chart that Guapo posted on this topic back on page 20. Hmmmn, looking at it again, perhaps I should have gone with a 1060 prop over the 1047. It has more Efficency and less Current Draw, well I guess I also loose a bit of Thrust too. How much Thrust does a SS need. Also, are the values in Gaupo's table for the skinny shaped props or the fat-spoon shaped props?

Any takers on my 9.6v 900mAh NiMH battery?

[dee-grose]

Todd,

Maybe I'll see you soon enough. In reality, I really don't see Dad much more often than when we get together to fly.

The skinny props are the HD props and the fatter ones are the SlowFlyer (SF) props.

dee

[Moonbeam Six]

Hey Glidergider, Sorry you missed us this morning. Toward the end of my second battery with my Slow Stick "Moonbeam," my transmitter battery began demanding a recharge. It was a few minutes after 0730, so I figured no one else was coming. I followed Randy to see his flying site by the pond. Keep checking this page, and we'll try to get together soon. On what channel is your transmitter?

Frank

[ghee-grose]

Dee has some nice pictures to post when he gets home. He was over here hovering that new Ultimate down low...on the deck!!!

[dee-grose]

Here's some pics from over at Ghee's house this evening. Thanks for the great photog work.

I was able to really make it look like I knew what I was doing. The key to hovering this kind of plane is definitely NO wind. I'll let the pics speak for themselves. I let Ghee fly it for a few minutes and I think he liked it.

Here's my setup in case anybody is wondering:

Motor: E-flite Park 370 Brushless on GWS D gearbox
Prop: APC 10x3.8SF
Battery: ThunderPower 3-cell 1320mAh lipoly (Gen1)
ESC: Castle Creations Phoenix 25
Servos: BlueBird BMS-306 x 4
RX: Plantraco DSP4
Weight: 12 to 13 oz approx

dee

[Moonbeam Six]

Nice shots! It surely looks like you know what you are doing.

[Mars Flyer]

I'll go ahead and warn folks about something weird at Moquin Drive. I believe there is some source of radio interference there. When I first met Don (miderror here), he mentioned that our Moquin site was quite dirty with interference. I'll second that now. Last week when I maidened my Ultimate 3D, I got all kinds of radio glitches using a Plantraco DSP4 receiver. Well, this evening I flew the same plane with the same equipment here in my backyard out over the cotton field and didn't get a single glitch. Anybody got any ideas?

dee

Andy,
I did a quick RF survey of the 72 MHz channels last year using my Icom PCR-1000 receiver and didn't note anything too bad in-band. There are the usual pager transmitters at the bottom channels. Refer to the freq table earlier in this thread to see where they are. There could be something just outside of the band which is giving you trouble. I owned a Plantraco DSP4 for about 2 days. When I did the range check at MDA I couldn't get more than 5 feet from the plane until it started glitching and twitching like crazy. I took it back to RC Hobbies and traded it in for a GWS Pico which I know is crappy but works most of the time. I haven't had one glitch with my Berg DSP but then it cost twice as much as the Plantraco. It may have better filtering in the front end. Bottom line is that I don't plan to buy any more single conversion receivers. I don't care how much signal processing they do. They simply let too many extraneous signals into the FM demodulator and can't possibly do as well as a dual conversion receiver. After 30 years as an amateur radio operator I have seen (and heard) plenty of radios and I know that a selective receiver front end is absolutely essential. Some of the good ham radios are triple conversion but then they don't have to worry about weight.

I assume there was nobody else flying at MDA when you had the glitches. As more of us fly together we'll see more glitches especially in the Picos.

BTW, I finally got my Optic 6 back from Hitec. Since I was going to be in the San Diego area I decided to drop it off for the firmware upgrade. I had version 0 and had experienced the 1-AAAA memory loss problem. They fixed it up for no charge including gimbal recalibration and RF retuning so it should be good to go. It took 19 days from drop off to the day it arrived at my house so if you go for the upgrade you'll be without the radio for awhile. I was glad to have the trusty old Flash 4 to fall back on but missed the shiny new Optic.

Rob

[dee-grose]

Thanks for the info, Rob. As always you amaze me with your radio info.

Dad was flying at the same time I was last week at MDA.

btw, not a single glitch this evening either.

dee

[NewbtoRC]

Anyone gonna be flying saturday? I still would like meet some of you guys. If i had an electric i would fly it too, but i don't have one and glow wouldn't me good out there i don't beleive.

[dee-grose]

There's a possibility I'll be in Huntsville on Saturday, but not sure what time I'll be able to fly. Gotta work that morning, but not sure for how long. Most weekend flying for the Groses happens in Athens/Limestone County.

dee

[dee-grose]

Here are some more thoughts on my picture post above...

The pictures you see here are from my 3rd and 4th flights with the Ultimate. That is my first real 3D plane. I did have a little scratch-built foamy that I tried to 3D with, but it wasn't anywhere close to as good as the Ultimate. Bottom line is that I attribute my quick success here to lots of time spent on AeroFly Pro Deluxe. I got that simulator for Christmas and it has been invaluable in learning to hover and practice aerobatics. Even though most of the flying I do in AFPD is with giant-scale gas-powered 3D planes, the principles are the same. It trains your brain and reflexes.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not claiming to be a pro here, but it was very satisfying to be able to fly this plane the way I have this early on in my 3D journey.

Come on guys, we need more 3D pilots in our little group :D

dee

[ghee-grose]

Bro, those pictures turned out pretty nice. Great job flying it. That Ultimate flies pretty good....maybe I need to build mine up and do some formation flying and hovering!

I think our count of 3D pilots is up to 4 now. You, me, Don, and Randy. Anybody I'm missing???

[guapoman2000]

Here's my setup in case anybody is wondering:

Motor: E-flite Park 370 Brushless on GWS D gearbox
Prop: APC 10x3.8SF
Battery: ThunderPower 3-cell 1320mAh lipoly (Gen1)
ESC: Castle Creations Phoenix 25
Servos: BlueBird BMS-306 x 4
RX: Plantraco DSP4
Weight: 12 to 13 oz approx

dee

dee,

Great pictures and nice 3D, we have several here with this model and they have since gone to other 3D models and I feel that for a flat wing foam model it sure flys just great and a good 3D trainer, the bi-plane allows for more lift. :)

One thing on your setup....I highly recommend the E-Flite 11X4.7, or the 12X3.8 black flexable propellers. With all that deep gearbox reduction you may not be taking advantage of that Park 370 brushless. If your landing gear wheels are large enough then, try out the 12 X 3.8 should you like 3D with effortlessly stick movements and lots of in-flight thrust. That E-Flite Black plastic propellers are indestructable.

Of course if you are happy with that 10 inch stiff APC propeller...have fun!

EDIT: Also, when you get more $$$ and a chance to visit Bishop Power Products

www.b-p-p.com

You will find the 2nd generation Thunder Power 1320mAH, 3S1P, Li-POLYs for about $42.00 and I purchased one during the 4th of July holidays with FREE Shipping and I have been completely impressed on the power (Amp draw) capacity of this little and light Li-POLY! :eek:

Carlos :cool:

[ghee-grose]

We have got to get our LHS to stock those E-Flite props! I will for sure put it to the test of "unbreakable" as you attest to Carlos. :)

[guapoman2000]

Horizon Hobbies stock these props should you get tired of waiting... ;)

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByCategory/Product/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFLP1260

Seems like they have the 12 X 6 and the 10 X 4.7 in stock

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByCategory/Product/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFLP1047

[dee-grose]

Thanks for the tips Carlos. I do have an APC 11x3.8 I'm gonna try soon...after checking the amp draw of course. I'm not saying it ain't gonna happen, but all that flopping it into the grass/ground yesterday and that APC prop is still going strong. The propshaft may not be so lucky...I think it has a bit of a wobble to it.

The only thing that worries me about getting a bigger prop is that I've read that bigger props cause the plane to torque more. But that might be a good thing.

Thanks for the tip on the battery. I think I'm done with TP packs...gonna go with higher discharge lighter-weight packs from now on. Kokams are looking good.

dee

[guapoman2000]

Here's your present setup...of course I doubt that the present battery is allowing that motor to get up to those high Motor RPMs. :rolleyes:

[dee-grose]

Actually, I wasn't specific enough when I posted my setup. I'm flying the 4100kv model of the Park 370.

dee

[guapoman2000]

Same batteries but, the APC 11 X 4.7 prop. Gobbs of thrust and you may perform 3D at a lower throttle setting :D

[guapoman2000]

Actually, I wasn't specific enough when I posted my setup. I'm flying the 4100kv model of the Park 370.

dee

dee,

Even better! Your model's AMP draw will be that much lower...say 3 - 4 AMPs and the possibility of trying the 12 X 3.8 would be a possibility and don't worry about the torque you will not need to go full throttle with this model and such a large prop. to get it airborne ;)

[guapoman2000]

Here you go!!!! :eek:

[guapoman2000]

Lower motor RPMs (a good thing) and higher in-flight thrust versus static! Great!

[atjurhs]

Missed you all this morning out at MDA.

There was an occassional light brezze, temps were nice, and my SS flew SWEEEEET! I think I've finally worked through the set-up bugs. It seemed like forever that I was doing "touch and goes" (or "touch and hops" might be a better descriptor espeacially when a breeze came up) and having lots of fun. Then my boss called on my cell (dang cell phones) around 0805, but I kept flying while talking. Who says guys can't multi-task. Man it was fun. Too bad we have to work, with these LiPoly packs it seemed like I could have flown all day :)

[dee-grose]

Are those numbers still with the 2100mAh like you had above? I've got the 1320 pack.

[guapoman2000]

Are those numbers still with the 2100mAh like you had above? I've got the 1320 pack.

Yes, and the reason is that the P-Calc has internal resistance from the first generation packs so, I select the largest to provide a close comparision of today's high Amp draw capacity and the TP2100 is my bench mark selection so, ignore the weight.

[ghee-grose]

Too bad we have to work, with these LiPoly packs it seemed like I could have flown all day :)

Todd, what ESC are you running? Programmable for the Lipoly voltage cutoff I hope. You don't want to burn up anything. :rolleyes:

[guapoman2000]

Todd, what ESC are you running? Programmable for the Lipoly voltage cutoff I hope. You don't want to burn up anything. :rolleyes:

Exactly, a higher demand power system will have the Li-POLY's drop in Voltage (Voltage under load) such that you can notice the performance drop way before those Li-POLYs go below 9.5 Volts under no load.

It is those light jobs that you have to be careful...meaning a very low Amp draw power system such that it keeps flying and you don't notice the drop in performance until it is too late for that poor battery.

Of course the use of programmable ESC's that you can set a LVC at 9 is great!

[atjurhs]

OK here's my SS set-up

JR R770 Rx
GWS 350 motor w/ C gear
GWS 1047 fat-spoon style prop
Bluebird 15amp ESC w/ no brake (SDC-15AN)
(2) Bluebird BMS 371 servos
either an E-Tec or GWS 7.4v 1050mAH LiPoly battery

Supposedly this set-up has about an 8.8 amp draw with 14.35 oz of thrust at full throttle. I don't know about all that, but it does fly awfully NICE :)

[ghee-grose]

That ESC isn't programmable to cut off at the proper voltage!!!!


Cells: 6 - 10 cells (7.2V - 12V)
Current: 15~18A
Peak Current: 30A
BEC: Yes: 5V/2A
Microprocessor: Yes
Over Temp Protection: No
Brake: Yes
Dimension: 27.5 x 21 x 7.5mm / 1.08 x 0.83 x 0.30 in.
Weight Without Wire: 3.6 g / 0.13 oz.
Weight With Wire: 15.7 g / 0.55 oz.
FET Res: 0.002 ohm
Frequency: 1.5Khz PWM

_____________
If you fly it with this until it won't fly any more you WILL ruin that battery! You CAN fly it like this safely, but you have to pay close attention to any drop in power and bring it in as soon as you notice a sag. Keep check with a volt meter too.

[dleviner]

So do the Bluebirds have LVC for LiPoly. If not, are there any other ESC's, other than the more expensive Castle Creations, that do have LiPoly LVC?

Also, how do you like the Bluebird servos. I've been looking at their micro 4.1 gr. BMS303 servos.

[dleviner]

I'm not as quick as you Gary.

[ghee-grose]

:cool:

CC is about to release a new line of ESC called ThunderBirds. They are programmable to be Lipo friendly and are considerably cheaper than the Phoenix line. I think a 9amp controller is $30.

I use an Electrifly BL-8 and love it. It was $34.

[dleviner]

Looking for "Brushed" not brushless.

Thanks anyway.

[ghee-grose]

Oh duh... :o

The Pixie line of CC are pretty cheap. They're programmable AND for brushed motors.

The 7amp Pixie is $30

The 20amp is $34

[guapoman2000]

Looking for "Brushed" not brushless.

Thanks anyway.

Here you GO! :D

http://www.castlecreations.com/

[dleviner]

So do the Bluebirds have LVC for LiPoly. If not, are there any other ESC's, other than the more expensive Castle Creations, that do have LiPoly LVC?

Also, how do you like the Bluebird servos. I've been looking at their micro 4.1 gr. BMS303 servos.



:(
Inexpensive, brushed, LiPoly LVC, non - CastleCreations (already have these), 15A or less, no brake, ESC options???

[ghee-grose]

Blue Arrow makes a couple. You have to buy either the 2-cell version or the 3-cell, they're not programmable between them. They are cheap though!

http://www.balsapr.com/catalog/speedc/speedControllers15AmpView.asp?ProductId=U831751

[atjurhs]

Well I guess I know my next purchase...

Kind of wish I had learned all this info before I bought stuff.

Let me see, so far I have replaced the 400D motor with a 350C and burned that up so replaced it again, and no idea how many props I've gotten/tried? Next, I've replaced a 9.6v 900mAh NiMH battery pack with two 7.4v 1050mAh LiPoly packs. And now I'll get to replace (because I don't want to chance a LiPoly explosion espeacially near my $90 R770 Rx) the ESC with a LVC version. I'll probably go with the CastleCreations one. This is getting expensive. But as Rick at R/C Hobbies said, "Ah, it's only money"

[ghee-grose]

You're using an overkill receiver anyway. Is that the one you had on the heli?

Don't be afraid to ask for details on this thread...we will give them...then it's up to you to if you want to follow them. :) Mistakes that you've made so far are a "red flag" to folks who have been into electric flight very long, but as a novice it's a simple mistake (to learn by). You are doing great and having fun. Remember what Rick said... only $$$

[atjurhs]

Yep, the JR R770 is because it needed to marry-up with my already owned JR8103 PCM Tx, and I didn't want to switch back and forth between PCM and FM. But the upside of the R770 is that I don't get no stinking glitches :)

[ghee-grose]

That's true...definitely a high-end receiver. Especially for a Slow Stick! :p

[guapoman2000]

Yep, the JR R770 is because it needed to marry-up with my already owned JR8103 PCM Tx, and I didn't want to switch back and forth between PCM and FM. But the upside of the R770 is that I don't get no stinking glitches :)

As long as you don't get into a crash and a servo does not get damage and subsequently happens to crap out on your model in flight that is true. A bad servo depending on the failure of course can and will draw lots of AMPs and that BEC in your ESC will overheart to the point of shorting out....the tell-tale sign is like a glitch at first as your receiver is no longer having it's comfortable Voltage from the BEC circuit as it is providing the demand for that servo....glitch....glitch then, when,...I don't want to end it here....you can imagine what comes next.. :o

[ghee-grose]

Something cool I ran across on a banner ad....

http://www.blip.com.au/?ref=101

[atjurhs]

Do I need the CC 7amp Pixie at $30 or the 20amp at $34 ? It looks to me like the 20amp, but with my buying mess-ups, I figured I'd ask.

[dee-grose]

Be safe...get the Pixie 20.

[guapoman2000]

Do I need the CC 7amp Pixie at $30 or the 20amp at $34 ? It looks to me like the 20amp, but with my buying mess-ups, I figured I'd ask.

Perhaps you are not realizing that just paying attention to the Amp capacity of an ESC either Brushed or Brushless is not the most important item to note.

The capacity of the output of the BEC is much more important in my belief...

Pixie-7 has a (1.2 Amp) BEC output. Allows for 3 micro servos using 3 to 6 round cells and just 2 micro servos using 8 round cells (NOTE: 8-cells is the maximum limit!!!)

Pixie-20 has a high (1.5 Amp) BEC output. Allows for 4 micro servos using 5 to 7 cells and 3 micro servos using 8-cells, and finally 2 micro servos using 9 or 10 cells.

Edit: For just a couple more $$$, recommend the Pixie-20 (Modified such that certain people that don't know my sense of humor don't get offended)

[GLIDERGIDER]

Hey Glidergider, Sorry you missed us this morning. Toward the end of my second battery. (snip) I followed Randy to see his flying site by the pond. Keep checking this page, and we'll try to get together soon. On what channel is your transmitter?

Frank

Frank,
I'm on channel 46. I arrived @ 7:35pm. Anybody else on 46? Sorry I missed you guys.
Dave

[atjurhs]

Gaupo

Look at the number of posts I've made. I'm a rookie, and I've already made too many buying mistakes - better to ask than make another. Edited to indicate that I can appreciate a "different sense of humor" of which mine is probably the wackiest :D I hope we're good

[guapoman2000]

Mr. Gaupo

Look at the number of posts I've made. I'm a rookie, and I've already made too many buying mistakes - better to ask than make another. There, now I have spelled it out for you.

You appear to be very knowledgable on all this electric R/C stuff, and I very much appreciate your willingness to contribute, but a reply that is a little less crass would gain you a lot more respect from a rookie.

Sorry,,,I did put a :D on it...did NOT mean to be mean ;)

[guapoman2000]

I'll stop and just PM me when you need help...take care :)

[ghee-grose]

C'mon guys... let's get along. :)

I don't think there was any harm intended.

[guapoman2000]

C'mon guys... let's get along. :)

I don't think there was any harm intended.


That's okay...I need to watch my step with people that don't know me and my style of writing.

I have modified my response, last sentence such that no one will misunderstand and think that I was less then sincere with assisting someone new. At my club where I fly is truely a great place since they profess the hobby and help you learn to setup, train, and fly for free. Yes, most of them are retired Space Workers but, they are the best bunch of guys ever and they tease me to no end and the teasing helps as I learn and the important stuff sticks in my brain for next time.

However, I do realize that as people are learning without the needed help and they have bad experiences...they are not in a joking mood..sorry :o

[guapoman2000]

For these that may not know.......

Yesterday, had a telephone converstaion with Castle Creations technician who I interrupted him as he was performing the initial testing of the new PHX-25 Brushless ESC with the fix for various Outrunner Brushless motors.

He promised me to call me back and verify that they did received my old failed PHX-25 that caused my model to crash on account of controlling an E-Flite Park 370 Outrunner Brushless motor.

In about 10 minutes I received a telephone call on my cell phone and it was the technician who told me that he had found my burned up PHX-25 ESC with attached letter and pictures and that as soon as the first batch of modified and improved PHX-25's are ready that one will be coming my way. :)

They seem to be working pretty hard to get a new version PHX-25 tested such that they can send out something that will not overheat while running low Kv Outrunners.

Hey, you all want to see a grown man cry....take a look at my wonderful looking and great flying Hobby Lobby mini-Telemaster model that crashed because of this ESC condition....at:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382420&page=4&pp=10


More to come! :)

[guapoman2000]

For those that are truely interested and have lots of time reading then, recommend to learn all about the problems of those that produce Brushless ESC's and the problems with keeping up with all kinds of new motors that come out monthly.

Here's the main thread that discusses in great technical detail...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354845

[ghee-grose]

OUCH!

Guapo, just curious... give us a quick run down of your hangar. (hold on, let me make some room here... ) :)

[guapoman2000]

OUCH!

Guapo, just curious... give us a quick run down of your hangar. (hold on, let me make some room here... ) :)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2936029&postcount=67

[ghee-grose]

HOLY COW!!!! Great looking, diverse fleet!

[atjurhs]

Ailerons on a SS

Have any of you all heard of a good way of putting ailerons on a SS? I know that the wing has some pre-molded ailerons in it, and that was my first thought as to how to add ailerons to my SS. But I'm wondering if that is the best method or not? Again, one of those better to ask than waste time and money going down the wrong path.

BTW, I just picked up a Pixie-20P. hopefully it will be easy to set up for my SS.

[Mars Flyer]

Ailerons on a SS

Have any of you all heard of a good way of putting ailerons on a SS? I know that the wing has some pre-molded ailerons in it, and that was my first thought as to how to add ailerons to my SS. But I'm wondering if that is the best method or not? Again, one of those better to ask than waste time and money going down the wrong path.

BTW, I just picked up a Pixie-20P. hopefully it will be easy to set up for my SS.


Todd,

Many moons ago when I had just finished my Slow Stick I was reading some posts on SS mods. The conventional wisdom is that ailerons don't work on the SS due to the extreme dihedral or undercamber or both. There was a spoileron mod mentioned which gives directional control when operated differentially or spoiler control (slows way down) when popped up together. These are similar in size to the aileron outlines but are on top of the wing near the peak of the upper camber. You can search for "Slow Stock spoileron" either here or in RCUniverse. I don't recall where I saw it. There was a video of some amazing "carrier landings" on a table using these things. I think the directional control could be accomplished with one servo but the spoiler/aileron combo requires 2.

When I got the aileron itch I built a new wing for my Gym Swallow and added them. I reduced the dihedral and made the bottom of the wing flat. It flies pretty well that way.

Rob

[guapoman2000]

Todd,

The conventional wisdom is that ailerons don't work on the SS due to the extreme dihedral or undercamber or both. Rob

Someone at the club shortened the Slow Stick wing span and added ailerons with very good results. He took out dihedral and left just a tiny bit and it flys just great. ;) If I can recall he was flying this morning with a HIMAX 2015-XXXX and it flew using the Thunder Power 1320mAH, Li-POLYs...sorry I did not take any pictures but, will in the morning since I will be passing by.

I witnessed that slow stick turn with just ailerons but, you need prop speed...recall that ailerons work with air speed and not so much with thrust.

It really is a different model with ailerons and more prop. speed and once it gets windy it sort of becomes bumby on account of it's under camber wing.

Carlos

[Mars Flyer]

So there you go Todd. Cut off the end of the wings, bend out the dihedral, and go brushless and you can do the aileron thing. That might be inconsistent with your desire for extremely slow flight but it should work. Alternatively, you might consider a new plane built for ailerons. I like my Mountain Models SmoothE. You can have ailerons on either the sport wing or the slow fly wing. The fuse is built-up from balsa but the wings are foam and very rugged. I like the aforementioned Gym Swallow because of its pleasant flight characteristics and very low cost.

Carlos,
From your avatar and location I take it you had some involvement with Space Station. I worked in the Space Station Program Office in Houston for 5 years and work at Marshall now. We support ISS among other programs.

Rob

[guapoman2000]

Carlos,
From your avatar and location I take it you had some involvement with Space Station. I worked in the Space Station Program Office in Houston for 5 years and work at Marshall now. We support ISS among other programs.

Rob

Rob,

Yes, I do work on ISS components. :D

[Moonbeam Six]

Todd,

Recommend spending some time reading the posts by BGarrison on his Slow Stick spoiler mod at http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167050

Links to his videos are on page 3, post 43.

Frank

[guapoman2000]

Pic1 looking North - North East and you can see the VAB :D

Pic2 looking towards the East, Air Force Side and my building is the last one before crossing over to the air force base :D

[Mars Flyer]

Guys,

I had a couple of nice flying sessions at MDA today. I expected to see someone else there but I had all that sky to myself. I flew from about 8 - 9 am and again from 7 - 8 pm. Flew the Slow Stick and Mini IFO this morning and Gym Swallow and Mini IFO this evening.

I got a total of 30 minutes or so on the IFO and am getting more comfortable with her. I still need to reduce the low rates but being easy on the sticks makes her fly nice. On high rates I managed several consecutive loops and a roll which turned into 2 rolls before I knew what happened. The contrast between the wild and crazy at high throttle and high rates is amazing when compared with the lazy circuits possible at half throttle and low rates. This is an interesting little plane. She requires more attention than my other slow flyers but still doesn't induce too much adrenaline.

Frank, I did a duration test on the GS with the Slow Stick CBP 7 cell. I got 36 minutes before losing power. That was just some gentle circuits with a little breeze. I don't believe this is the same as the phenomenal flight times you have been getting but is the best I have gotten.

Andy, I took the little Icom receiver to the field and took a listen on the 72 MHz frequencies. There is a very faint modulated signal (a whistle on FM) for 3 or 4 channels centered on channel 31 but it is so weak that I can't imagine it would cause any glitches except at the extreme end of the transmitter range. I experienced a few glitches on the IFO using a GWS Pico receiver but that is part of the charm and challenge of flying with GWS gear :) I'm guessing your Plantraco glitches were due to Frank flying nearby. I guess you are still close to his channel.

Anyway, it was a great day today. The late afternoon shower didn't interfere with my early and late sessions.

Rob

[Moonbeam Six]

Rob, glad you got some good time in today. I flew a few minutes with my Slow Stick this evening in the front yard. My day was spent doing hot grungy work combating all the stuff that grows around my place this time of year. I once got 29 minutes on a 7-cell AB pack on my Slow Stick, but I've been getting much less than that with the CBP on the SS. My long duration flights of about an hour have been with my GymSwallow on the 7-cell CBP. Next time Andy and I fly together, we'll do a test. Thanks for the info on that freqency. I only rarely get a hit on channel 31 at MDA, and it is usually very mild. I don't recall ever getting a hit on Debbie (with the GWS Pico receiver). I just have to avoid flying near Andy when his transmitter is on. That GWS Pico flight pack has served me well for way over a year now. Of course the NiCd battery pack gave up many months ago. Next time we have a group fly session at MDA, bring your IFO. I've not seen it fly.

Frank

[atjurhs]

Good morning,

All - spent a couple of hours flying this weekend around the house. Bombing raids on neighborhood garage sales is lots of fun :) But I guess they got even with me because when I let my neighbors fly the SS they'd put her in a tree. And flying in the dark is fun too, "which way is it going?" Couldn't the sun stay up just a little longer :)

Gaupo - over the weekend I recalled seeing your pics of your PVC garage storage technique that I gathered up a bit of leftover PVC and made one too. Thanks for the idea! I don't have access to this forum over the weekend (email only, no internet) so using only my memory (which ain't very good) mine came out with 1/2" pipes angled at 45* up. It worked, but now that I went back and took another look at your pics I might change it, we'll see how it works first. But at least now I have some place to store them.

Rob - Did you pick up on that last word - "them". That's right, it seems my SS will have a cousin soon... Taking the forums' advice and keeping the SS fairly traditional (w/o ailerons), I went and ordered me a SmoothE as a aileron trainer. Frank is gonna have to get motorized running shoes as my wife will be after him for sure now (I keep blamming the re-birth of this old hobby of mine on Frank). Actually I ordered the SmoothE before reading your post Rob, but it certainly was re-assuring when I read it this morning, and saw that I made the right choice.

Gary & Andy - well I can get my SS on her back and fly her pretty well keeping her level, but I don't have much rudder/turning ability when she's on her back. Any suggestions???

MDA was pretty nice flying this morning, cool and not breezy at all, but the traffic is getting heavier (not to mention the light pole I flew into - whooops the went another prop). Perhaps Rob will chime in here and post, as he got to fly much longer than I.

If anyone wants some flying company over the weekend my email is: todd.jurhs@applied-analytical.com I get email over the weekend, just not full internet access.

Thanks all for the re-birth of an old hobby that's lots of fun!

[ghee-grose]

Gary & Andy - well I can get my SS on her back and fly her pretty well keeping her level, but I don't have much rudder/turning ability when she's on her back. Any suggestions???


I still have difficulty keeping controlled inverted flight with my SS and I have HUGE control deflections on both surfaces. This plane doesn't want to be upside down! With that big, undercambered, dihedraled wing it's not gonna stay inverted easily. :o

With my SS I can do outside loops and "push" out of inverted flight. And that's with the stock 300 powered by an 1800mah 2-cell Lipo. :cool:

[atjurhs]

Hey Gary,

I trimmed (rounded) my tail surfaces a bit just to look a bit different than a stock SS, and I'm also adding british decals vice the german ones for the same reason - just to be different. Consequently, I haven't yet been able to do an outside loop (what's the addage about messing with success).

Maybe if I re-locate the push-rod down the control-horn a hole or two on the elevator, I might be able to do the outside loop. But, on the rudder I do have a lot of throw. However, this morning Rob pointed out that I should put a drop of CA on my servo mounts to keep them from sliding up and down the fueslage shaft. Maybe that will help.

I've also seen a bunch of posts where other folks have clipped this bird's wingtips, so I'm thinking about doing that too. What have I got to loose....

[ghee-grose]

Different can be a good thing when your one of a flight of 5 slow sticks!

Moving the pushrod closer to the control surface WILL give you more throw. A small strip of tape on both sides of the servo mounts keeps them from sliding and it's not as permanent as CA. Just don't use much if you do CA it. :)

I've got a friend who clipped the wing tips on his SS and has mixed opinions on if he likes it. He did that with his spare wing and I don't see him fly it very much opposed to his stock SS. I've flown it and don't like it very much. It flies faster, rolls quicker, but doesn't glide very well. I've got fast planes to fly fast, I have the SS to fly slow. If you want to change the style it flies... clip 'em! :D

[atjurhs]

Thanks for the tape tip. I think I'll use it vice the CA.

That's a great summary of what wing clipping does, and a good reminder of why I ended up with my SS in the configuration that I currently have her in. Hence I'm going to leave her alone, and not clip them.

I'll leave the faster flying to my SmoothE when it shows up.

[ghee-grose]

By the time you get that SmoothE going you will be real comfortable with the SS. Then you will have two different birds depending on your mood. The SmoothE is a neat plane.

[guapoman2000]

The Slow Stick performs (at least mine) the best Outside Loops and continuous. I maximized all throws for my SS and that Astro Flight 010, 14-turn is geared with the 3.75:1 ratio and swinging that E-Flite 12 X 6 prop. supplied power by first generation Thunder Power 2100mAH, 3S1P, Li-POLY and it hoovers effortlessly. It is great to see it torque roll....as it tries to fall to the side.

That power system setup produces at least one pound of thrust at just 3/4 throttle and this 15 3/4 oz. SS just hoovers great and with much less Amps as other power setups.

Carlos :cool:

[atjurhs]

Hey Rob,

What are your thoughts about putting flaperons on the SmoothE.

I could either make two full-wing-length flaperons or divide each wing half in two and make the outboard-pair of control surfaces strictly ailerons and the inner-pair of control surfaces strictly flaps. Both configurations would only require one additional servo. But the aileron/flap quad combo would require a bit more linkage, whereas the two full-wing-length flaperons would be very simple likage and mixing would be done in the Tx.

Your thoughts......

[ghee-grose]

You could set it up with 2 ailerons per wing, 1 for flap and 1 for aileron. With that fancy radio and receiver of yours you could do what's called "crow" mode on it. It's where you drop the flaps and raise the spoilerons to make airbrakes. The Hangar-9 UltraStick (glow powered) is a prime example of one that uses this feature.

just an idea if you want to load it up. :)

[Mars Flyer]

Hey Rob,

What are your thoughts about putting flaperons on the SmoothE.

I could either make two full-wing-length flaperons or divide each wing half in two and make the outboard-pair of control surfaces strictly ailerons and the inner-pair of control surfaces strictly flaps. Both configurations would only require one additional servo. But the aileron/flap quad combo would require a bit more linkage, whereas the two full-wing-length flaperons would be very simple likage and mixing would be done in the Tx.

Your thoughts......


Todd,

I have been thinking about adding a servo and controlling the ailerons separately. Mostly this is so I can program in some aileron differential but would also allow flap or spoiler operation. I haven't seen any mention of splitting the ailerons for the SmoothE but I don't see any problem with that except for the linkage. You'll need to use small servos like the GWS Pico or Hitec HS-55 to fit in the wing properly.

A couple of lessons learned from my SmoothE build:
- be sure to use the strapping tape as directed. Some have left it out and the wings failed
- I think MM is recommending using epoxy to attach the wing segments to the spar rather than thick, foam safe CA as recommended in my instruction set. I had to use a lot of CA but it worked fine.
- the wing tape is hard to get smooth. I should have used Solite.
- I used Oracover on the fuse and it looks great
- packing tape for the hinges doesn't stick to painted surfaces very well. I painted the ailerons and elevator and had to inject thin CA under the tape to get it to stick. I would use CA hinges (small ones) in my next build.
- snaking the push rods through the fuse holes is great fun. Get a flashlight and don't use any caffeine products before you do it 'cause you'll need a steady hand
- I used Dubro micro hardware for the linkages and did a special trick on the tail horns I'll have to show you.
- resist the urge to use full throttle on takeoff and set the throws at about half recommended. It is pretty twitchy at full throttle but is really smooth at half.
- I put bigger wheels on so it would handle on grass better. I don't land on the road - I've broken too many props hitting the curb.
- the 350, 9x7 prop, and 8 cell 750 mAh work great. There is plenty of power for whatever you want to do short of 3D.

You'll love the way the balsa fits together. Just snap together and hit it with thin CA.

Rob

[NewbtoRC]

I am building a Pylon plane that uses micro servos, and i might just have to get me a slow stick since i will have the servos. I came by the other day (last thursday) around noon and no one was out.

[ghee-grose]

How you gonna use the servos in both planes? Once you put them on the slow stick you won't want to take them off! :)

[Moonbeam Six]

NewbtoRC, it is hard to beat a Slow Stick. I recommend the 300-C motor option, which can be ordered by RCH, if not in stock. It is very rugged, and a docile and relaxing plane to fly. I have put countless hours on mine in over a year and a half. Whatever else you might fly, everyone's hangar needs at least one Slow Stick.

Frank

[atjurhs]

Good morning NewbtoRC,

If you look back on this thread (not very far I might add) you will see where I have gone through the pains of re-outfitting my SS. I would HIGHLY encourage you to take Frank's advice and get the 300-C version of the kit from the start. I started out with the 400-D version and have completely re-outfitted mine with all different electronics.

BUT, the good news is exactly as Frank said, that the SS is a great plane and will give you many hours of flying enjoyment and fun. And part of my amazment with this kit is its ability to survive a crash, or should I say survive multiple crashes. Just yesterday I went to R/C Hobbies and bought all the 1047 props they had on hand. Although I'm breaking props the plane flys on! It's amazing, and tons of fun to fly!

[ghee-grose]

Speaking of breaking props and flying on...

One time Brian and I were doing some combat flying in my backyard with our brushless slow sticks and it turned into an aerobatic shootout. We did some awesome loops, inverted flight, and crazy spins right next to each other. Although most of these maneuvers were the result of the "Oh-crap-we're-gonna-hit mode" but the end result looked really cool. It would've been a great one to have on video!!!

Anyway, we collided one time where my prop chopped up the tail of his and even snapped the bamboo skewer he had on there for support. In turn it broke 1/2 of my prop off and I was about 150' away from me and about 30' up. I didn't want to walk to get it so I gave her a little throttle to try to coax her back home. Oh yeah, she started shimmying and shaking but I made it back to a safe L.Z. :)

**side note**
The bamboo skewer vertical stabilizer supports are A+, #1 when it comes to a SS.

[atjurhs]

Thanks Rob for your post!!!!!!

I am copying your text to a seperate file and will put it in my SmoothE box when it arrives, so that I may be sure to incorporate your suggestions/tips.

If you agree that dividing/diverting some of the aileron surface to inboard flaps would not greatly impact the SmoothE's aileron turning ability, then I am planning on going for the quad aileron set-up. And I'll probably add a bit of width to the ailerons to help compensate for the shortend length. Again, any advice here would be appreciated!

[atjurhs]

Yep Gary, I fully agree with the vertical stabilizer supports!

And NewbtoRC there's probably one of the best tips for the SS.

Unfortuneately I lost the ones your dad gave me :( but I found a suitable replacement in styrene (plastic) tubing. I buy this stuff at the local hobby store for use on my rockets as launch rod guides, but it works well for vertical stabilizer supports too :)

[ghee-grose]

Todd, I don't know if you seen them yet but there's a ton of threads on here about the SmoothE. Here's a popular one... All three parts!

Part I
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205796&page=1&pp=15

Part II
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276761

Part III
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=383252&highlight=smoothe+

[ghee-grose]

I've found the best outlet for the skewers is the Dollar Tree store by Target. They have a pack of 100 or more for $1. They come in handy for all sorts of uses....

#1 strength/supports :D

#2 epoxy stirrers/dobbers :p

#3 temporary tail skid on any foam plane :)

#4 a good way to draw blood for a diabetic sugar test :eek:

#5 you can build some cool things with them and several scraps of foam :rolleyes:

#6 also can be used for intended purpose, grilling :cool:

[atjurhs]

Lol

[Mars Flyer]

Guys,

Launchcode is looking good for tomorrow morning. Anyone up for boring some holes in the sky? Due to the increasing traffic on Moquin Drive, I propose using our old flying site on Quality Drive. That is due south of the MDA on the south side of Madison Pike. Take Diamond Drive south off of Mad Pk, pass in front of the Direct TV and Cinram buildings, and you are there. I park at the dead end of Diamond Drive and use Quality for the runway. There is very little traffic and there is actually more grass to land on there if you prefer. There are no light poles but there are some small trees and big shrubs to keep us honest.

Rob

[Mars Flyer]

Thanks Rob for your post!!!!!!

I am copying your text to a seperate file and will put it in my SmoothE box when it arrives, so that I may be sure to incorporate your suggestions/tips.

If you agree that dividing/diverting some of the aileron surface to inboard flaps would not greatly impact the SmoothE's aileron turning ability, then I am planning on going for the quad aileron set-up. And I'll probably add a bit of width to the ailerons to help compensate for the shortend length. Again, any advice here would be appreciated!


Todd,

Many of those ideas came from the forums which Gary listed. A few came from my experience/mistakes.

I really can't comment on the quad aileron set-up. I try to base my opinions on data (experience) or analysis - neither of which I have for that configuration. What you propose is certainly similar to many other planes so it should work in principle. You might pose the question to the Mountain Models brothers and see what they think. You could post on the forum Gary listed and probably get an answer there as well.

One thing to keep in mind is that the ends of the ailerons are separate balsa pieces with the grain oriented perpendicular to the rest of the aileron. You could fashion something similar to strengthen a half aileron.

Here are some images of my SmoothE
http://www.knology.net/~suggs/planes/SmoothE.jpg
http://www.knology.net/~suggs/planes/SmoothE%20bones.jpg
http://www.knology.net/~suggs/planes/SmoothE%20and%20Slow%20Stick.jpg
I've got bigger wheels on her now but the rest is the same.

I'd be glad to answer any build questions you have.

Rob

[NewbtoRC]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am about to get an ultra stick, then will come a slow stick, then a flight back. I am gonna get the 400 i beleive, because i want plenty of speed/power. And i guess the stock battery pack, or maybe lipo, who knows.

[ghee-grose]

If you want power, go brushless. Not a 400.

[guapoman2000]

Thanks for the tips guys. I am about to get an ultra stick, then will come a slow stick, then a flight back. I am gonna get the 400 i beleive, because i want plenty of speed/power. And i guess the stock battery pack, or maybe lipo, who knows.

ultra stick?

A couple of budget minded flyers over here installed the EPS-400C (3.0:1 ratio) in their E-Starters and 3S1P, Li-POLYs with the 10 X 7 Prop. and wow...it zoomed like it had a brushless.

More prop speed? No problem, just get an even lower ratio and assuming the 7.2Volt Mabuchi 380 Brushed motor that comes in the GWS EPS-400C power system setups. The limit on these motors are 12 Amps at Wide Open Throttle so, you figure a prop size and pitch to provide you with whatever you are looking for such as Prop Speed or Thrust or a good balance of both as long as you don't get too close to 12 Amps.

Carlos :cool:

[atjurhs]

NewBtoRC,

I'd higly recommend the 300 set up, not the 400. But if you're set on the 400, and you'd like to save yourself some $$$, then buy the glider version of the SS kit and I will sell you the GWS 400 motor, Bluebird ESC, and 9.6 900mAh NiMH electronics package that I took out of mine when I converted over. Those three items have less than 1 hour total flying time on them combined. As I said, if you're set on the 400, I'll make you a good deal.

[atjurhs]

Rob those pics look awesome!

Time to ask some more questions of the more experienced flyers:

1) With a new kit expected to arrive anyday now, it's probaly about time that I ask the question on coverings/coatings. Back in the day when I did a lot of building, the only available covering was Monokote, and it was brand new back then (yes, a few decades + have gone by since then). Now there's all kinds of coverings/coatings out there. What kinds do you all like to use and why?

2) I've pretty much gone totally down the LiPoly road. The other day when I was out flying my SS one of my LiPoly packs gave me 15+ minutes of flight time, not having had my fill yet for the day, I slapped in my 2nd LiPoly pack, but I only got 5 minutes of flight time. They were both "fully" charged the night/day before on my inexpensive little HobbyCo Quick Field Charger II. So my only explanation is that inexpensive little charger didn't do too great of job bringing them up to full charge. So I think I'd like to get a charger that is specifically designed and optimized for LiPolys and that can tell me the amount of charge it has input to the battery. The Triton charger would probably be my first knee-jerk reaction, but there might well be better ones out there that are specifically designed for LiPos. Which ones do you recommend?

[dee-grose]

I really like my Triton for charging all my different packs. I like that it tells you just how many mA you put back in the pack.

[guapoman2000]

Coverings ..hum...depending on the size / weight of the model? :confused: Yes, here's a link discussing all about coverings:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2192349/anchors_2192349/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#2192349

Li-POLYs:

I too have the Hobbico Mark-II dual Charger and Great Planes Triton.

Assuming the two Li-POLYs are the same in mAH capacity then, it is pretty fishy that you had flown with a wide difference in duration unless of course your throttle management had something to do with it? :confused:

My Triton charger pumps in another 230 - 250mAH in all my Li-POLYs above what my Hobbico Mark-II does...so, when I really like to impress or like long duration, I slap those Li-POLYs on my Triton since it also raises the Off-The-Charger Voltage :)

[atjurhs]

The two LiPolys are the same in mAh capacity, but are from different makers and were bought at differnt times.

Do LiPolys need a break-in period?

Interesting that your Triton pumped in that many more. I guess the Triton still sets that standard to try and beat...