Aquila XL on the table, brain in the cooler

[ferincr]

Boy those wings are weird!
I know I'm pretty close to zero experience but it doesn't make much sense to me that they make that spar strong enough to tow that plane with a ferrari and then the rest of the wing is just stuck to the front and rear of it.
I mean the wing behind the spar (sheeting, ribs and caps strips) are just glued to the back of the spar, not even the spar glued on top of the sheeting and caps strips, and the same at the front, the ribs are cut in two aft the spar and front of it, the bottom sheeting, the top and the ribs are just glued to the front and aft balsa shear webs.
So the only whole rib it would be the 1/32 ply root rib
Does this makes sense or I just misinterpreted the plans????
Anyone built this plane?

Fernando.

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

Ribs go through the spars. Shear webs glued aginst the sides of the ribs. Top spar caps the assembly. Cut the ribs where you have to add plywood gussets AFTER the LE and TE are glued in.

[ferincr]

That is what I thought, but the spars are solid.
There's the botom spar cap,on top of it goes 1/2" thick shear webs glued to it and to each other with the other spar cap on top, all these sandwiched with the 1/16" shear webs.
And the ribs comes already cut.
It's really scary to think that all that holds the back of the wing is just the edge of the sheeting and the front edge of the ribs!

[fly1milehi]

for what its worth, the Bubble Dancer ribs are split as a front and rear and just glue to the face of the spars. There is carbon cap strips that tie it together some (I think, since I have the plans but havent built it)

[ferincr]

No CF in this one.
I re-read the instructions (that are quite skim) and looked at all the drawings on the plans and I'm pretty sure this is the way.
Well, I guess I'll find out the hard way.

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

For the novice builder having two section ribs is a bad deal. I will even disagree that there is any significant structural gain in building a spar structure then gluing two piece ribs to it. The loss of airfoil shape from misalignment is a greater deficit than any structural loss from a full one piece rib.

Considerations given for wing joiners.

[ferincr]

Actually the loss of airfoil doesn't worry me very much (how much can I lose? it's a flat bottom wing, not very good performancer anyway) as long as the whole thing doen't start coming appart up there...

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

What ever.

[AirBornOne]

Fernando,
Thats how I remember my XL plans, 'riblets' front and rear simply glued to the spar.
My guess is that at the time of the Aquila XL,spar strength was the focus of the day.I wouldn't worry about it though.
Some very strong and awesome planes come to mind.Organic,Omega,Danny.
SoCal's point is still quite valid.
Lets see more of your build.
Skies.
Jay.

[Hawksnest]

Boy those wings are weird! "snip"
I mean the wing behind the spar (sheeting, ribs and caps strips) are just glued to the back of the spar, not even the spar glued on top of the sheeting and caps strips, and the same at the front, the ribs are cut in two aft the spar and front of it, the bottom sheeting, the top and the ribs are just glued to the front and aft balsa shear webs.
"snip"
Anyone built this plane?

Fernando.

Yes, I built the plane three or four years go. You are correct, the spars are built first, then laid on the plans, and the front & rear part of the ribs/sheeting, are all glued to the spar, front & back. I used .021 carbon top & bottom on my spars, and you can launch & zoom the plane to the moon. :D For a 109 ounce & 150" span plane, it launches hard. Not a bad flyer either. I just sold mine last fall after flying it for many hours. The new owner likes the plane a lot. Bill G.

[nuevo]

they make that spar strong enough to tow that plane with a ferrari

What makes you say that?

[ferincr]

Thanks Airborne one, Ill post more pics later.

Hawksnest,
wow! that plane looks beautiful (and BIG!!!) I can wait to have my looking like that.

Jonstone,
IMIO (the second I is for ignorant) those spars don't even flex a bit, they do front to back (but that will go once you buid the riblets (just learnt that word) but up-down are solid as a broom stick, may be I should had say rigid instead of strong.

In all cases I feel more relaxed now, knowing that I didn't screw up
Fernando

[Hawksnest]

Thanks Airborne one, Ill post more pics later.

Hawksnest,
wow! that plane looks beautil (and BIG!!!) I can wait to have my looking like that.

Fernando

Well, it could be that I'm only 5' 7" tall too. :D :D Bill G.

[ferincr]

if that is the case, It wont look much smaller in my pic (5' 9")

[nuevo]

Reason I ask is, such a large wingspan can put a lot of stress on the spar, especially near the root.

[Hawksnest]

Reason I ask is, such a large wingspan can put a lot of stress on the spar, especially near the root.

Right Jon, and this wing is 1650 sq. in. 150" long, lots of stress. Bill G.

[danstrider]

for what its worth, the Bubble Dancer ribs are split as a front and rear and just glue to the face of the spars. There is carbon cap strips that tie it together some (I think, since I have the plans but havent built it)

I haven't read this whole thread, but this line isn't right.
The Bubble Dancer uses one-piece ribs and split shear webs. Then a tapered CF capspar is placed top and bottom of the rib/web/rib/web/rib assy and kevlar thread is wrapped down the length of the whole thing. So just a little clarification about the BD spar.


Who kits the Aquila XL or original Aquila? Looks like a nice easy build that would be a fun next winter project.

Dan

[ferincr]

Posted by JonStone Reason I ask is, such a large wingspan can put a lot of stress on the spar, especially near the root.

Well, now you mention that, another thing it caught my attention is that the wing rod receiving tube is nested between two block of balsa! and then sandwiched between the sparcaps and ply shear webs. but when you compare it with the AG that the brass tub is nested between two spruce wedges and the whole thing filled with epoxy it seems to me that is a lot ridgid and solid setup.
Can't those humongous wings crush the balsa blocks??? It looks like everything depends on just the glueing of the box formed by the two sparcaps and ply shearwebs.

[ferincr]

Well, the whole thing looks stronger than I thought!
What do you know! It might even hold together!

[ferincr]

Who kits the Aquila XL or original Aquila?
I got the short kit from DCH just before he closed down.
I had the left overs of an original Airtronics AG with a broken fuse (what a surprise!)and thought that if his two share the same fuse I could get interchangeable wings, but as I found later I need to fix the AG fuse...

[danstrider]

I got the short kit from DCH just before he closed down.
I had the left overs of an original Airtronics AG with a broken fuse (what a surprise!)and thought that if his two share the same fuse I could get interchangeable wings, but as I found later I need to fix the AG fuse...

I guess the real question is then can she be built from plans? I've seen some great planes plans that didn't list all the ribs or formers so effectively couldn't be scratch built. The Aquila XL plans look good?

Also, is the fuse fiberglass? Not sure from ferincr's comment about it being broken.

Thanks! And DEFINITELY keep up the build pics!!!!! I love watching people's planes come together, especially such woody projects as this one.

Dan

[erich]

ferincr

Just want to make sure I understand what you did. Did you build the whole (inner panel) spar complete and separate, and then place it on top of LE sheeting? Also did your plans come with a side view of the complete spar system? Reason am asking, going to build an Aquila next (working on Challenger now) and then a Sagitta XC, both of which look a lot like what you're doing. And I like the idea of making a continues spar.

erich

[ejett]

The Aquila XL fuse as kitted by DreamCatcher is FG. The wing design is marginal in my view, but evidently adequate for the original design parameters. I would certainly recommend using some hefty CF on the top spar and some 1/2 hefty CF on the lower spar (notwithstanding CF is getting in somewhat short supply due to the newfound popularity of UAV's in the military arena), but I will use it when building mine (no timeframe on that).

Fernando: you are probably too far along to do that, but you will make a nice flying plane out of it. Don't worry too much about it, just do it and fly it. We want more pics. Please keep posting.

It's a big plane. The plans weigh almost a pound.

EJ

[johnsocj]

Didn't the AG have one of those rolled ply or rolled balsa aft fuse sections?

If so, (and if that's what broke?) look to some free flight sources for instructions of how to build these. (Though it seems simpler to purchase a carbon boom, it seems a bit rude to do it that way)

C.

[ejett]

Johnsocj:

The Aquila Grande had a one piece FG fuse. I'm not sure about the Aquila XL.

The Grand Espirit and the Sailaire had a rolled ply rear fuse boom.

EJ

[ferincr]

The Aquila XL plans look good?

I guess it is possible, but you would need to figure out the reduction on the ribs for the tip wing pannel. I don't know how to do that.
There is a profile for the main ribs, anyway, before I started building I drawed templates for all the ribs, so I don't have to go through everything I had when trying to rebuild the AG.
You would also need the instructions (which are quite skim and skip some steps, at least for a not very experienced builder) to guide you through some lack of details on the plans. Combining both of them even me is getting through (sometimes using a bit of gut sense).
Fernando

[ferincr]

By Ejet[QUOTE]The Aquila Grande had a one piece FG fuse. I'm not sure about the Aquila XL.
The fuse for the XL is like the AG but bigger and it seems like DCH took care of the cracking problems of the AG.
Seems stronger and has a kevlar tape on both sides ( pics of both coming)
Fernando

[ferincr]

here they are

[fly1milehi]

I must be thinking of the Houston Hawk, Im sure that one of the current TD open class ships builds the center section spar separate and then glues it into the channel between the half ribs.

[ejett]

I believe you are thinking of Tony Estep's Dark Star RES. But the Airtronics Grand Espirit used 2 piece ribs with the rear portion being Geodetic or "/\/\/\..." type. The Airtronics Legend uses two piece ribs in the center section as well with a one piece spar built into the wing. I'm not positive about their Whisper designs, but I would suspect they are similar to the Legend.

EJ

[ejett]

Fernando:

Thanks for the perspective shot on those fuselages.

I'm drooling.

EJ

[ferincr]

wing tip and main pannel jointed.

[Esprit2]

The Aquila Grande had a one piece FG fuse. I'm not sure about the Aquila XL.

The Grand Espirit and the Sailaire had a rolled ply rear fuse boom.
EJ
Hi Ed,
The Sailaire's tail boom was rolled, but I have two Airtronics Grand Esprits with fiberglass booms. Heavy fiberglass booms. Did they start with rolled ply and switch?

Later,
Tim

[ferincr]

I sheeted the main panel and while clamped added top cap strips.
While coping with the wait and because it was early I made the bellcrank.
I didn't like the system that shows in the plans in which the front rod of the stab goes through three pieces of brass tube (one glued to each side of the fin and the third one glued to the bellcrank) that means that if you pull the rod out of the fuse you would lose the bellcrank inside. So, I did the same sys. as the AG, where the front brass tube (only one) goes through the bellcrank from one side of the fin to the other (glued to both sides of the fin) and the bellcrank moves around it. That way I can get both rods out of the fuse for transport.
Also the plans calls that they changed the rods from 3/32" to 1/8". I did the front rod in 1/8" and the pivot one (rear) in 3/32", as I read so much of the importance to skim weight from the tail.
Today I sheeted the wing tip pannel and now I'm in another annoying waiting period.
Fer.

[ejett]

Hi Ed,
The Sailaire's tail boom was rolled, but I have two Airtronics Grand Esprits with fiberglass booms. Heavy fiberglass booms. Did they start with rolled ply and switch?

Later,
Tim

Tim:

I think maybe you are correct and I was wrong. The Dreamcatcher short kit I have came with a very nice CF boom and I have not actually seen any of the original early production kits. So, I think I stand corrected on the GE.

EJ

[ferincr]

Well, not a work of art. but I think it will do.
It seems like I'm destinated to make two sets of wings for every plane!!!

[ferincr]

Let's see if this one looks better at the end

[ferincr]

second wing jointed together. We'll see if I can sheet it today.
Running low in CA and it's saturday noon! :eek:
Last night I was playing with compufoil 3D that is a cool program, I wish I know how to use it! and what all the different curves affect the airfoil, and how the airfoil affect the wings. Anyway, it looks like I will be buying already designed planes for the rest of my life.
Fernando

[schrederman]

Lookin' good...... Makes me wish I'd gone ahead and acted on the urge to order one while I had the chance.

Jack Womack

[ferincr]

Well, IMIO I think the Aquilas are so popular I don't think they'll get lost.
Apparently this guy already sold the rights to someone, I know that some people think is a bit flimpsy but they (Aquilas) been around since the '70's someone will resusitate them.
Probably the same panic happened when Airtronics stopped building them.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well, the second wing is almost ready for sanding (tomorrow) and definately looks better than the first one, even though I couldn't improve it too much so it matches the first in weight and performance.
It's amazing how much more relaxed I feel on the second wing (building the first one was a bit confusing) the whole process was so much smoother.
Fernando

[ferincr]

I weighted the two wings and not only the sencond one looks better and stronger some how (which wont make any difference if the other one decide to quit up there) but it also is quite a bit lighter.

Anyway, after a suggestion of one of the experienced guys in the forum I started to consider to mod the rudder to a regular type instead of a balanced type.
And I know somebody else suggested this some time ago, I remember Ejett also explained to me in one post the differences between the two types (which at the time I didn't even know what they were talking about) but I couldn't find the thread it was on.
I'd would like to get a bit more info before I start the construction of the rudder.

1.-Can anyone tell me how significant the difference would be, and how?

2.- would this work for the original flat bottom Aquila wings as well as for other type of wings?( (I'm considering building a set of more efficient wings in the future with better airfoil, dihedral instead of poly and flaps/ail, but it's just a dream at the moment).

I know I can't expect Ollie to help me here (as I read in one of the threads that I should offer him a gift for that) but may be some of the others experienced designers that bump into the thread can orientate me on this.
Thanks a lot to all the supportive fellows,
Fernando

[erich]

Fernando

What is the width of your spar caps, shown in post #41?

erich

[ferincr]

Fernando

What is the width of your spar caps, shown in post #41?

erich

Erich, first of all, hats off for you.
I hope some day I build something the way you are building that Challenger.
I don't know if it's the German genes or what but the attention to detail on that baby is amazing.
I try to console myself with the excuse that for the moment it's not worth it to spend too much time in detail since this plane will have to withstand the punishment of learning (yes, I know quite a lousy one), anyway...

About the spar caps, the ones in the main pannels are 3/16" X 5/8" and the ones in the tip pannels 1/8" X 1/2" both spruce.
Fernando.

[ferincr]

It really looks like it is a plane!!!

[ejett]

Fernando, my friend, you do good work.

EJ

[ferincr]

Swooooshhhhhhhhhh!!!, swooooshhhhhhhhhh!!!, swooooshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Fernando, my friend, you do good work.
I'll tell you when I see it up there...

[ferincr]

I'm still compemplating the possibility of sawing off the rudder and make it non balanced.
What about servo stress, I guess a non balanced rudder would need a beefier servo, or not?
Fernando

[Culver10]

It looks great Fernando!!! Have you picked a color scheme yet?

[ferincr]

I sitll need to order the monokote, But the choices are: fuse & tail feathers white (no questions about that) and wings white with transparent blue or transparent purple, not sure about that yet and black trimming.
Fernando

[ejett]

I'm still compemplating the possibility of sawing off the rudder and make it non balanced.
What about servo stress, I guess a non balanced rudder would need a beefier servo, or not?
Fernando

No. A standard servo will work fine.

EJ

[ferincr]

Thanks EJ,
That was the thing that kept me thinking about modifying the rudder it looks like a balanced rudder would ask a lot less from the servos.
Fer.

[ferincr]

In a completely different subject. I got epoxic resin today and started the repairs on the AG fuse with the " little squares" technique. Let's see how it works. On the article mentions fg tissue, but I didn't order any so I'm using .73 oz. fabric to do it.
Fernando

[ejett]

I used some 1 oz. FG fabric on my fuses, when I repaired them with the same technique. You should be fine, but will have to use more squares since they are so thin.

EJ

[ferincr]

I hope it works...

[ejett]

That'll work fine. I knew you were going to do it. I could tell all along you wanted to. Keep your photos coming.

EJ

[Culver10]

Transparent purple seems so show up very well at altitude, I'm not sure about the blue? I ordered an Elipsoid last week in blue so I can let you know how that shows up.

[Hawksnest]

Transparent purple seems so show up very well at altitude, I'm not sure about the blue? I ordered an Elipsoid last week in blue so I can let you know how that shows up.

I like Purple, Blue, Red, or Green, transparent, out on the outer tip panels, with light Yellow or light Orange transparent on the inside panels. Shows up better than solid color transparent wings. Darker on the outside seems to define the tips better at altitude. BTW, you will like the Elipsoid, good airplane. Bill G.

[ferincr]

I wasn't happy with the alignment of the stab rod (it wasn't in the same plane as the wing rod) so I did it again.
According to the instructions if it was crooked you just heat up the tail boom, twist a bit and correct it that way, but it didn't sound right because the rudder wasn't square to the stab either so if I twist the tail boom wouldn't correct that .
I decided to file the holes in the fin and try to square everything up as best as I could at the same time.

[fly1milehi]

ferincr,
Whats with the ultra LONG "uber" (LOL) stabilizer joiner rod? Is that just for alignment purposes I hope..
greg

[ferincr]

Yes, it's easier to measure differences in longer distances.

[ferincr]

I got fed up with the priming sanding business.
I gave the coat of white, it looks fantastic!!!
Makes me wish I spent more time on those wings, but I still have time before I cover them, if they look half as nice as the fuse I wont be taking this baby anywhere.
Unfortunately that shi*y camera I got doesn't show it.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well I'm kind of stuck now. I'll go to the US for a month (good things are that I'll be picking up my new radio, monokote and the tools to cover the planes, among other goodies I ordered).
But that fuselage been out every half an hour to the sun, I just love it. I got this spray paint I bought just because it was epoxic and thought that will bew good to use it on the FG fuse.
I painted the AG fuse with Plasti-kote because I read in some thread that it matches the white monokote color, but compared to this one is a bit yellowish white.
This one instead is kind of hurtmyeyes white, and I guess it helped that I wet sanded the primer with 400 grit before the white.
I painted the canopy area metallic blue and metallic purple to match the wings but I regreted so I sanded it again and decided that the fuse it's going to be white with gray and may be black trimming.
Need to find a pilot though.
I'm still looking for it.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well, this is going into the freezer for a month or so.
I'll be out but the good news is all the new gadgets are already waiting for me to pick them up (new radio, monockote and covering tools plus some other supplies).
These are the last pics of the fuse front, I'll be finishing this baby when I come back.
I need to find a cool pilot for this one too
Fernando

[ferincr]

here it is, I also put these pics in sailplane talking forum, I hope that doesn't get me in trouble, I'm sorry I'm just too proud of the final product I can't help it!!!!
Fernando

[Culver10]

Transparent Purple has always been my favorite color! It looks great!!

[ferincr]

Thanks Culver,
The only problem is that material never quits shinking I tried to do the stab with it and got tired of ruining it, after the third try I went with white monokote.
Fernando

[ferincr]

Well the time finally came!
It's ready, balanced and waiting.
Hopefully tomorrow.
Final weight 106 Oz.
Fernando

[erich]

Fernando

What's the wingspan on your purple bird?

erich

[ferincr]

Fernando

What's the wingspan on your purple bird?

erich
It's 150".
I hope I can launch it by myself!
Fernando

[WHL]

Beautiful plane! Good luck tomorrow.
Post some pics of it flying!
Bill

[ferincr]

Thanks,
I would keep my fingers crossed but I already do a pretty lousy job with the sticks with them the way they are.
Fernando

[oracle_9]

Just a question about the type of servos needed in these types of XL's, like Aquila XL, Sagitta XL, Paramount, etc, etc...

Someone mentioned using standard servos is fine, but is it really?? (I dont know, thats why I ask)

What are the specifications one must look for in a servo for these planes? Like a certain Torque (ie. standard =~ 45oz.in), resin or metal gears?, bushing or ball bearings?