Opinions on the Global Cirrus 2M ARF

[bugeater]

I'm interested in learning how to thermal, and I suspect my new Siren probably isn't the best platform for this. So I am considering purchasing a pure glider. One that is a good price at the LHS is the Global Cirrus 2M ARF. However it is almost impossible to get any information about it. I looked in the box and the instructions were actually for the Wattage mini thermalaire. Not sure if it is just an unpowered version or not.
Anyway, I am wondering what opinions people have of this sailplane. It looks pretty neat, but I can't find any figures on wingloading etc. The other option is a Spirit Elite ARF, but they seem rather heavy, otherwise it is quite attractive (and cheap). They also have a Gentle Lady ARF, but it is a bit pricey.

Marty

[aeajr]

My friend has a Cirrus 2m ARF. Flies fine. Bult in spoilers that are ready to go.

Fuselage wood is a bit soft on his. Had to add a brace where he holds it as the fuse was flexing a lot while he pulled it back on the hi-start. It would also concern me that it has the wrong instructions in it. What else is missing?

The GL is a great plane for learning to thermal.

I don't think the Elite would be a good first sailplane.

[bugeater]

Part of the problem is Perth is a pretty windy place, and I don't think the GL's handle wind too well. If I can only use it when it is calm, well I'll probably never fly at all. I'm also not really not sure what makes a good thermal glider. Some of the guys at the club are actually saying that a bit of weight is a good thing, though that might be because they have adapted to the windy conditions here.
I did find a thermal today with my Siren, though I didn't gain much altitude. In fact today is looking good, with Soarcast predicting 5 knot thermals.

[aeajr]

If it is windy most of the time, say normally more than 10 mph, then a little heavier plane can definatly be an advantage. Of course you can ballast anything.

When the wind is more than about 10 mph, I often add 3-6 ounces of weight to my Spirit. It flies much better in the wind with a bit of ballast. Have flown it in wind up to about 20 mph off the hi-start and winch, but I would not consider this plane ideal for that kind of wind. That Elite would be a better plane for the wind, but it is a flat wing full house plane.

If you have aileron experience and have a radio that will handle a full house plane, then it might be a better choice for your conditions.

The Cirrus likewise can be ballasted to handle the wind better. The spoilers can be very helpful in landing, so that would be a plus again for the Cirrus.

They will all thermal well.

The elite will take you further with its full house contorls, and if it is windy all the time, the more positive aileron controls might be your best choice. Of course you will need 5-6 servos to set it up, so it is going to cost more for electroncis.

What kind of radio are you using? At least 4 channel? Computer radio? This could be the determing factor. You will need at least 4 channel standard radio to fly the Elite and I would perfer a 5-7 channel computer radio.

[bugeater]

During summer it is usually more than 10mph (windsurfer mecca). Winter is a bit better. However the best time in winter is just after the cold fronts come though (according to the paraglider guys), but I think it is pretty windy then too.

I'm fine with ailerons, in fact I've never flown with anything else. My radio is a six channel JR 2610 (6210 in your part of the world). Strictly speaking, it isn't a glider radio, but I have heard that with some creative use of the mixers it can probably do everything you want. Servos probably aren't a problem either, since I've got quite a few lying around and a spare reciever as well.

Today turned out to be quite good for thermals here. Cumulus clouds and even some Cumulonimbus were forming everywhere. I went to the field (a second time), launched my Siren and I got sucked into one really strong thermal that seemed to be forming a cloud just upwind of the field (I also noticed lots of small birds darting around in it). But I paniced, since the plane was getting buffeted around like crazy. Maybe I didn't find the core? I did find I was having difficulty controlling the Siren in the buffeting conditions, since I seemed to be losing a lot of headspeed.
It's club day tomorrow, and I think the conditions might be similar to today :D so I'll have to ask for some tips. Thermalling seems like something worth learning.

Marty

[aeajr]

2610 will do just fine with a full house. No, it is not a "sailplane" radio, so it won't do everything a "real" sailplane radio will do, but who cares. It will give you all you need. You can fly a full house with a 4 channel standard radio, so tell the snobs to back off.

This is your radio, right?
JR 6102
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByCategory/Product/Default.aspx?ProdID=JRP6664**
6 channels, 10 model Memory, model naming, selectable switch locations,
Direct Servo Connect (DSC), 4 user programmable mixes, a variety of standard
mixes - great radio!

You will probably have to put the two flaps on a Y cable, but other than that, you will be just fine!

This is the Spirit Elite you are considering?
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAVR0&P=ML

Get the Elite. Yes it is a bit heavy for the typical 2M, but if 10 mph winds are the norm for your area, the extra weight will be an advantage. For your conditions it is a much better choice than the Cirrus or the GL, especially with your experince. You will be much happier with it in the wind.

You have a radio and the servos to handle it.

No question about it!

Are you hi-start launching or winching your sailplanes?

[aeajr]

Here are the mixes I would recommend you look for in your radio, in the order of priority that I would give them. So if you can only manage one, take the first one. But you can probably turn on at least three of these.

Flap with elevator compensation - usually controlled from the throttle stick, a lever, or a 3 position switch.

Aileron Differential

rudder to aileron mix for smooth coordinated turns

launch mix - droops the ailerons about 10-15 degrees and the flaps 20-30 degrees on launch from the winch or hi-start. Turn it off about 2/3 of the way up, before you zoom or release from the line. Usually on a switch - on for launch, then off.

Reflex - raises the ailerons and the flaps 2-5 degrees. Use this to "run" through sink

Crow/butterfly - raises ailerons 10-20 degrees, drops flaps and compensates with elevator. Your radio will likely not do this, however this will really slow a sailplane down for spot landing. Usually controlled from the throttle stick.

Hope this was helpful. Ask any questions you like. I will help if I can.

[bugeater]

That's the radio I've got. Its probably the most common radio amongst the guys I fly with since it is such great value. That's also the plane that the LHS has as well. It also seems to be quite good value. Unusually it is actually cheaper to buy it here than ship from the US.
The only sailplane I have is the Siren, which is a warmliner, so no hi-starts or winching, but the club has plenty of hi-starts and winches avaliable, so that's not a problem. If I were to buy the Spirit Elite, I think it might be worth trying to lighten it anyway, since you can always put the weight back as ballast. I did come across some sites that talk about it, such as http://www.rcgroups.com/links/index.php?id=4102
I guess I would start with the hi-starts and move to winching.

This post http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2091855&postcount=7 is very interesting on how someone setup their non-sailplane JR radio to get all the fancy sailplane stuff.

[aeajr]

I have read many of Ib Jensen's posts. He really seems to know his stuff and seems very willing to help those who could benefit from his knowledge. You are very fortunate to have found that post. Thanks for sharing it with me.

I will bookmark it and am going to pass it on to several members of our sailplane club who have the JR 6102 radio.

I would suggest you PM him and ask for his help in setting up your radio. Maybe the two of you can do this via a set-up thread to document what you are doing for all to see. I am quite certiain he will be happy to help you. If that happens, please let me know about the thread. I would like to follow and direct others to it.

It would be much easier to do all this on a Futaba 9C, an Airtronics Stylus, Multiplex Royal Evo, or a JR 10X, which have more channels and broader programming. The fact that he could squeeze so much out of the older version is very impressive but not all surprising, based on what I have read in his other posts.

He and others have really surprised me in how effectively they can manipulate these computer radios. Time and experimentation can produce amazing results.

For myself, I have a Futaba 9C. It has pretty much everything I want in easy "reach" so I have not had to delve too deeply into the programming. To date it has all been pretty easy. However, I am now planning the set-up for a 3.6M Ventus 2C scale sailplane. I have enough channels and mixes to do what I want on the inital plane with flaps/ailerons/rudder/elevator and tow hook release. But if I add airbrakes/spoilers and landing gear, I ran out of channels. Several have come to my aid to show me how to squeeze more out of my radio to make it do all I need. Quite a brain trust that lives on this forum.

I look forward to some future thread on your new Elite and how you set up the radio. Many will benefit from your experience.

Clear Sky and safe flying to you.

[bugeater]

Okay, I succumbed and bought the Spirit Elite ARF. I really need to control this plane buying habit. Anyway, I discovered that two of the servos I had were too small, so I've ordered 4 metal gear servos for the wing. I've also bought a pull-pull system for the rudder, and I'm going to use a 1.5 mm carbon fiber rod for the elevator push rod. Hopefully this will lighten the tail up a bit. I also want a 7mm carbon rod for the wing joiner, but that seems to be the one size that is hard to get. So I'm waiting on the bits to arrive now, which will be after Easter. I will try to get as much construction done as I can over the break without those pieces.

What is a good brand of high start to get? The club has them and winches, but it would be nice to have my own. However the one in the shop I bought the plane from was $255 (more than the plane - about $200 US).

Marty

[aeajr]

Congratulations on the Spirit Elite. You should do well with it. It should slope soar quite well too.

Assuming you have a launching area that is at least 800 feet, you want a hi-start with about 100 feet of rubber and about 400 feet of line. Those numbers can be varied based on field size, strength of the rubber and the plane. The amount of wind also impacts the configuration.

I have used, and recommend the NE Sailplane Pinnacle line of hi-starts. They are the standard at our field.

NESail Pinnacle Standard. 100' of latex tubing and 390 feet of line. Good for 2M through medium weight 3M planes. Probably an excellent choice for the Spirit Elite. $80
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=875

If you plane to move up to 3M planes in the next year or two, you might want to go up a step to the Pinnacle Large which is targeted at 3M planes. This is the standard hi-start at our field for 3M planes. However we launch light weight 2M planes like the Cirrus, Spirit and Gentle Lady off this with excellent results. Only a few $$ more. This would be my recommendations if you are looking to move up soon. $87
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=874

Aerofoam makes the Hosemonster line of hi-starts which have an excellent reputation as well. I have never used one but people rave about them. For your plane, I would suggest the 2 meter competition size.
2M. Comp/100ft. rubber 500' line $110.00
3Meter/100 foot rubber 500' Line $120.00
http://www.aerofoam.com/hosemonster.html

If you want to go cheap, just for something to have for occasional use, this will launch it, but it would not be my primary recommendation. I think the Pinnacles are a much better quality. I have used the Dynaflite HD Hi-start with good results on a Spirit and Gentle lady. I will launch your Spirit Elite but I would not go past a 100" plane with it. $60
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXE636&P=7

This article may be useful as well.

How to use a Hi-Start
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=52

Here is what I use and my experience.

I have a VERY strong hi-start, a NE Sailplanes Pinnacle XL, rated up to 4 meter planes. The 3M guys at the club call this the Big Bear! It is based on 1/2 inch tubing with a 3/32 wall. If there is no winch around, I use it to launch an Airtronics Legend 3M at about 80 ounces, and a Spirit 2M at about 32 ounces and everything in between. We have launched Gentle Lady ARFs and Cirrus 2M planes off this in 10 mph wind with no problems.

Most people will tell you that this is TOO STRONG for the Spirit, you will break it. However after about 150 launches, the plane is fine, but it is not ideal for the plane. It is stronger than needed. I could go down two sizes and still get excellent launches with a longer pull and a gentler launch. The Pinnacle Standard would be perfect.

When I am launching the Spirit, I use 500 feet of line on 100 feet of 1/2 inch rubber. That is about 100' more than would be typically be used but I am launching a light plane off a strong launcher. This combo works even in calm fair for the Spirit. I pull it about 150 feet. If I have a breeze of about 7 mph, I stand the line up and get huge launches. I give up nothing to the winch!!!

When I launch the Legend, I pull it back about 250 feet and launch at about 24 pounds of pull. Again, if I have a good breeze to help kite the plane I get very good launches. Less windy days I will take 100' of line off when I launch the Legend.