Sukhoi 39 Frogfoot

[Neil Straker]

This is my latest depron 'jet' project. After the Swallow and the Vampire, I decided to make something a bit more 'scale'. I designed it at 40" span, but when I got my enlarged drawings back it looked enormous! After a bit of umming and ahhing, I decided to go with it. Here are some of the components:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/su1.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I used white depron for the load bearing formers as it seems to have less 'flex' than the black:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/form.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I used some of the techniques I've seen on this forum... The turtle deck has 6mm sq strips added each side. They fit into notches in the formers. I'll have some 'meat' to sand a decent shape...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/comp.jpg

[Neil Straker]

The engine pods are laminated from 3 layers. The inner 2 are hollowed out. They act as an anchor for the wing, which has an undercambered section...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/pod.jpg

[Neil Straker]

Whoops, should have said, I'm aiming for a semi-scale model of this:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su-39_1.gif

[Neil Straker]

Power will be supplied by a MEGA 16/15/4 'combat'. The motor will be mounted 'inboard' and will use a 5mm cf rod as an extension, running through 2 ballraces. A mate made me a lovely motor to shaft adaptor...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/ex.jpg

[Ralph A. D'Amelio]

Looks real good. Nice to have someone make up the s/m bearing. What do you plasn to use for races.

Ralph

PS, I also have found that the black depron is a lighter density than the white.

[Neil Straker]

I got the turtle deck on, also the canopy template, only need to make another eight of 'em! lol

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/turt.jpg

I'm using 5mm internal 11mm external ball races. Another mate found 'em in a heli spares bin at our local shop :)

[CRAZYPILOT]

Here is the real thing

Kenneth.

[Neil Straker]

Yep, that's the one :D

[monkamarm2000]

You always pick my favorite planes Neil! lol


Barry

[Neil Straker]

Lol, great minds...

I thought I'd put the bits I've done so far together to see what it looks like.

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/joinedop.jpg

It might look OK after a bit of sanding? OK, a lot of sanding then :)

I've decided to change the shape of the wings a little. Less sweep, wider tips. The 'scale' wing I cut looked a bit 'tip stally' to me :eek:

I'm not convinced about the motor either, but we'll see...

[RNAF]

Hey Neil,
looks like a great jet! Good luck with the build!

later,
Dave

[Neil Straker]

Thanks Dave :)

I cut the 'sport' wing. It has a little more area and the chord at the tips is greater. I threw it together to see what it looked like :)

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/mock.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/mock1.jpg

[RNAF]

Looks like a potential,
have you got any idea about wingloading?
Perhaps if this wing works good, you could try the scale one!

Dave

[Stefan lamers]

Hello Neil
Nice plane you're building. Do you have experience with the long motorshaft set-up?
I can see the advantages, shorter ESC wires and less problems with the CofG. Is it difficult to align the bearings, do you loose power?
greetings
stefan

[Neil Straker]

I don't know what the wing loading is at the moment, I've got to make the motor box and a few other bits. Once I have an idea of the auw, I'll work it out.
The motor shaft is a first for me, in fact the whole model is a bit 'make it up as you go along'! Well, depron's cheap isn't it? :) I'm sure Matt Halton made a pusher with a motor extension though, I' off to search for the thread :)

[Tomcat Fan]

You put it together to see what it looks like, huh?
Well it looks pretty darned good.

Glad to see someone building this; more or less the Russian equiv. of the a-10.

[Neil Straker]

Thanks :)

Yes, it was a development of the SU-25, which wasn't a great success apparently. The 39 was deemed a vast improvement. I just like the shape to be honest :)

I've been sitting looking at it for a while, trying to work out my 'sanding strategy' - although it's semi-scale, I want some nice rounded edges! When I've sanded it, I'm going to brush on some water based filler. I use 'No Sanding Polyfilla' mixed with water. I think this is similar to what you in the USA call 'spackle'? I've found a big tube of black water based paint that belongs to my kids, so I'm gonna pinch some and mix that in with it. With luck, I'll have black filler :D

[Neil Straker]

Not a lot of progress today, but I did laminate the dummy engine pods:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/pod.jpg

I used the 'non-glue' method to do these. My pals Andy and Mike showed me how to do this a while back. If you are not familiar with this technique, it's really simple. You need some cellulose thinners and some loo roll. Soak the loo roll with some thinners and then 'swipe' one of the surfaces. This will melt the surface just enough for you to 'glue' the next part in place. The secret is to work fast and apply only a very light 'swipe' of the thinners. If you don't, it will melt! Ask me how I know! lol

btw, my mate Mike Black (mentioned above) is the depron guru as far as I'm concerned, I'm sure most of you will be familiar with GAD? If not, check out Green Air Designs (http://rcelectricflight.com/) :D

[Neil Straker]

Right, I need some help... Have a look at the pics of the model in post 14. I have two choices, either cut the ailerons into the wing, or add strip ailerons. If you were me, what would you do? :D

[RNAF]

I'd cut them into the wing.
Sure the added strips would give more wingsurface, but it won't look better.
Depends on where your priorities are :D

Dave

[eatond]

Hi Neil,
That's a great looking adapter your buddy made you. Instead of using it though I'd recommend getting a universal joint and using that. Find a LHS that caters to the RC boat trade and ask them. That's how Matt H. and I both set up our pusher F-14s. Mine has two bearings supporting the shaft and I think Matt was down to one when he finished. Works out well with no vibration.

Dan Eaton

[Neil Straker]

Dan, why did you elect to go with the universal joint?

Love that F14!! :D

[Neil Straker]

Not a lot of progress today :(

I did make the 'motor box' though...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/house.jpg

Also, did some quick sums, I think the wing area is about 260 sq in. So, I'm going with the 'cut-in' ailerons :)

[eatond]

Dan, why did you elect to go with the universal joint?

Love that F14!!

Hi Neil,
It's been a while but I think the decision to use the u-joint came down to getting the shaft as free running as possible. The fewer the bearings the better and the u-joint allows the shaft installation to be less than perfect alignment wise.. Besides, I figured the boat guys were turning higher revs than I was going so following their lead was a safe bet.

Dan Eaton

[Neil Straker]

Yes, that makes sense. If I can get hold of one I'll give it a try.

I started to rough shape some of the parts...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/ruf.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I couldn't resist putting it together again for another look, it's starting to look like an SU-39 now. Well a little bit anyway, I did say it was semi-scale :)

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/ws.jpg

Sorry about the clutter in the pic, my 'workshop' is also our kitchen :D

[Neil Straker]

I'm quite pleased with this one. I've got all sorts of fancy 'camo' colour schemes in my head, but I think I'd better find out if it flies first!

Anyway, here she is so far... what do you reckon?

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/front.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/rear.jpg

[eatond]

Hi Neil,
I think it looks great. Nice to see a different subject. I'll bet it looks even better when you get some paint on it. Got any pics of the color scheme you're thinking about using?

Dan Eaton

[Synwpn]

she looks great Neil! cant wait to hear how she flies!

[Neil Straker]

Thanks :)

I'm thinking of something like the colours below, not sure yet though, I'm open to suggestions ;) As it's semi-scale, it could be any of the modern Russian camo schemes I guess :D

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su-39_1.gif

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!

[TGoodwin]

I thought the the Frogfoot was a SU-24? Is the SU-39 a different plane?

Looks great by the way.

Thanks Ted

[Neil Straker]

Dunno :confused: I thought the 25 was the original 'Frogfoot' and the 39 was a development...

I'll have to dig out my documentation...

[Neil Straker]

It seems that the name Frogfoot is a generic name given to all development versions of this aircraft. I could be wrong, but if I remember, Frogfoot was the code name gived to it by the USA. Strangely, the 39 is also known as the Su-25T or Su-25TM - a bit confusing isn't it? :)

[Neil Straker]

In a frenzy of post festivity building, I made the er, motor shaft bearing mounts...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/ww.jpg

Well, it's a start! Seriously, it just needs assembling really and we'll be ready to give her a throw...

If it flies, I'll think about colour schemes :)

[Neil Straker]

The real one has sort of 'pods' on the wing tips. I asume they contain some top secret avionics...

Anyway, I was chatting to a mate the other day about this model, and he pointed out something I'd noticed too. I have an 'undercambered' section at the root, but due to the flexibility of the depron, the tip remains 'flat'. So, in effect I've introduced some washout into the wing, if you see what I mean? I think that will be helpful. So, those pods I mentioned will come in very handy to help maintain the tip section...

So I made a quick dummy, to see if it would work...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/tip.jpg

And it does! I'm also going to reduce the spar, it will now end 3 or 4" inboard of the tip. I think the 'pod' will help the wing 'track'.

Any thoughts?

[Neil Straker]

I think this is what I mean :confused:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/diag.jpg

The root has a wing section, dictated by the shape of the dummy engine pod (a). The tip, aided by the 'pod' is held flat (b). The approx. position of the spar is shown by the green line (obviously it will continue through the fuse and into the other wing)

So, what I'm trying to say is this: In the rolling axis, the spar will maintain the wing shape. In the pitch axis, the root will maintain it's shape due to the slot in the fuse and the dummy pod. At the tip, the 'flat' wing section will be maintained by the 'avionics' pod which will have a wing section of it's own.

[keven64]

That looks great ! :)

Su-25 Frogfoot versions... ;)

Su-25 Frogfoot A
The original production ground attack aircraft with R-95 engines
Su-25K
Export version of Su-25
Su-25UB Frogfoot B
( UB = Uchebno Boevoi = Combat Trainer )
A two-seat trainer version.
Su-25UBK
The export version of Su-25UB
Su-25UBP
A naval trainer based on Su-25UB
Su-25UT Frogfoot B
( UT = Uchebno Trenirovochnyi = Trainer )
An unarmed primary trainer which is also known as the Su-28.
Su-25UTG Frogfoot B
( UTG = Uchebno Trenirovochnyi Gakovyi = Trainer Naval )
A naval trainer version based on the Su-25UT.
Su-25BM
This is the enhanced ground attack version, with R-195 engines, this is the last production version, and the most numerous in Russian service.
Su-25T
( TM = Tankovyi Modifitsirovannyi = Anti-tank )
This was a proposed enhanced version, which would incorpoate more armour, improved sensors, a new gun and new engines.
It was developed further, is now in production... and designated Su-39
Su-25TK
This would have been the export version of the proposed Su-25T

Keven. :)

[keven64]

24 high quality 'Frogfoot' photos (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?&maxres=500&keywords=Frogfoot&keywrange=all&nr_of_rows=24&first_this_page=0&page_limit=15&sort_order=photo_id+DESC&thumbnails=&engine_version=6.0&nr_pages=2&page=) - All are Su-25, though...

The logo on the fin of a frog bashing a little tank is great. ;)

A couple of Su-39 (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Sukhoi%20Su-39&distinct_entry=true) photos which are not nearly as colourful.

Keven. :)

[Neil Straker]

I was thinking of fitting the motor with an adjustable thrust line. However, in keeping with the 'that looks about right' spirit with which I've made the rest of it, I decided against it. I mean, I've only got to line up the motor mount and two bearing mounts in perfect alignment, in two directions. What could be more simple? :eek:

Here is the motor mounted, and the shaft adaptor fitted...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/house.jpg

I decided to stick with the 'solid' adaptor. The motor is easily accessible if I need to change it.

[Neil Straker]

A trial fit of the motor/shaft components...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/msc.jpg

There is a scrap of 6mm depron between the shaft and tailplane. That will help align the shaft correctly I hope! The shaft runs on the same datum line as the tailplane.

[Neil Straker]

Instead of using a biro, a pencil or a bit of twig with some paint on the end of it to mark out your depron, get yourself down to your local supermarket etc. They sell 'glitter' pens that kids use. The ones I have are manufactured by a company called Signo. (the same ones I used to put panel lines on the Swallow). They come in a variety of nib widths. The thin ones are superb for 'drawing' onto depron, because, unlike the above, they do not require pressure to apply, so you don't get a dent along the line in you've just drawn on your depron!

:D

[The Max-Q]

Looks great!

[Neil Straker]

Thanks :)

I fitted the forward underside to the fuse, and also, did some 'remedial' work on the turtle deck :D

The ol' masking tape comes in handy :)

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/bott.jpg

[Neil Straker]

When the glue's dried, you can roughly shape it with your Permagrit... It looks so much better without the masking tape :D

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/perm.jpg

[Neil Straker]

Progress! I did some more today...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/shaftin.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/rearbott.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/reartab.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/rufrear.jpg

If anyone's interested, I'm doing an online 'build' on electrifly (http://www.electrifly.uk.com/forum)

[Neil Straker]

Considering this is one sheet of depron, I'm quite pleased :)

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/sleek.jpg

I got it to this stage using a Permagrit and 80 grit sandpaper. When I've stuck the other bits on, I'll give it a going over with finer grade paper, and then it's on with the no sanding polyfilla :)

[Neil Straker]

The fuse. is all glued together now, so I hope I don't need some serious access to the motor...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/motacc.jpg

:eek: Still, if I do, I'll just cut a hatch :)

[Neil Straker]

On the other hand, I will be able to get the pack, and a packed lunch in here :)

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/batacc.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I cut the slot and glued the spar in. I decided to go with the short spar! There are complicated technical reasons for this. Among the most important considerations are: I want to do it now and the only suitable cf rod I have isn't long enough! lol

I used 60 min epoxy for this. Although it is a pain waiting for it to go off, the final result is stronger and less 'brittle' than 5 min etc. I propped the l.e. and t.e. up with some scrap cf rod to induce a bit of undercamber and also to ensure the cf rod stuck to the walls of the slot...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/sparin.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I used a needle file to make a groove in each elevator half to accomodate the cf rod joiner. I've roughed the cf rod up with some glasspaper. Once the two halfs are joined with 5 min epoxy, I can get to work fitting the tailplane and fin to the fuse...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/tpart.jpg

[Neil Straker]

The joiner...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/tup.jpg

and the tailplane glued in place

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/tin.jpg

[Neil Straker]

Wing glued to the fuse, this pic shows the undercamber at the root...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/und.jpg

[clausxpf]

Neil.
I do like your simple way of making that bird...
ok I will draw it for one or two fans and I bitt bigger...but I have to finish my Himat fist for the contest..
I really would like to know your center of gravity
Claus

[Neil Straker]

A pal worked it out for me...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/ceegee.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I really enjoy talking to myself...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/gw1.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/gw.jpg

:D :D :D

[RonnieF]

Personally, I find the Frogfoot quite ugly, but it is a real pleasure to watch as you build by the "seat of your pants".

Thank you for sharing your work with us. I look forward to more posts and pictures.

Ron

[The Max-Q]

I agree that the Frogfoot isn't the most pleasant aircraft on the tarmac, but I think that's some of the appeal (in a Hummer-esque way!) To each their own I suppose. I think the designer (or Air Minister or something) said that the Frogfoot "was for the third day of the war, after you've run out of smart bombs." :D

The model's looking great!

[Tram]

So.. is this going to be a kit by GAD? If not, will there be plans? :) I am loving all these new pusher jets! ;)

[Neil Straker]

Well, it's not all that pretty I agree, the real one looks nicer than my rendition of it :). As this is my first 'built-up' depron model (only done flat plate depron before) I wanted something with a relatively easy shape to build. Also, it offers pretty good wing area, the shoulder wing should add a bit of stability, and I haven't seen one modelled before!

Although I know Mike at GAD, I'm not associated with his company, so it won't be a kit! Mike's designs are far superior to mine, he's the govenor as far as I'm concerned. I took my inspiration from Mike and some of the other superb depron models I've seen on this forum.

If it flies I might do a plan though ;)

[Tram]

A plan would work. :) I love the Frogfoot. :)

[Al_]

The progress is awesome! It looks very sturdy IMO.

Where can one buy delpron?

[Neil Straker]

Thanks guys! I'm in the UK so I don't know where you can get depron in the USA, but I'm sure someone does? ;)

:D

I've finally got the airframe glued together...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/allg1.jpg

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/allg2.jpg

The only bit left to do is the hatch that will fit here:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/allg3.jpg

But before I do that, it's on with the 'No Sanding PolyFilla'! :D

[Neil Straker]

I painted the filler on! :eek:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/fill.jpg

[Neil Straker]

And I've sanded most of it off again...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/spray.jpg

Frogfoot's are also available in blue, here she is after the first base coat...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/spray2.jpg

[Neil Straker]

Anyway, I had to bring her indoors to dry, the acrylic paint didn't like the sub zero temp. in the garage! :eek: At this rate, I reckon another 200/300 coats of paint should do it! :eek: I really, really, really wish I'd made this from white depron...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/phew.jpg

[Neil Straker]

It's getting a bit more blue...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/blue.jpg

[Neil Straker]

Anyway, it's getting more and more blue!

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/bluer.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I think I'll leave it to dry overnight and have a look in the morning...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/allblue.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I got the final base coat on yesterday, and this evening I started cutting it back, I reckon by the time it's finished (if it gets finished) it will come in at about 1 1/4lb! If it fly's at all, it's not going to be much cop at that weight...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/lastsand.jpg

[rdeters]

Excellent work Neil! Looks Great!

[The Max-Q]

I second that! Looks like...an Su-39! Time for some close air support missions!

[Neil Straker]

:D :D

I didn't have a lot of time this evening to be honest, but I sanded the 'canopy' with wet'n'dry and gave it a quick spray with 'top coat 1'. It's difficult to show in a pic, but here goes...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/candone.jpg

[Neil Straker]

I decided to skin the canopy apperture with thin balsa. This will hopefully stop it getting dinged everytime I so much as look at it!

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/skin.jpg

It means I have some more sanding to do, but hey, I like sanding :)

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/skin1.jpg

The 'canopy' will be held in place with a tongue at the front and a couple of magnets at the rear.

[Neil Straker]

She needs to be 'dirtied up', but here she is with the camo sprayed on :D

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/camon.jpg

[Neil Walker]

For someone who claims to be an inexperienced Depron builder you sure are doing a beautiful job. And while I agree that the Frogfoot isn't exactly the sleekest-looking machine in the world it's very unique. You may have one of the only Frogfoot R/C models in the world:)

[Neil Straker]

Thanks very much, I appreciate that :)

I don't have much experience with depron, apart from some 'flat plate' designs. I have been building model aircraft for a long time though :) I find it a pleasure to work with (the white more than the black). You can use it almost as you would balsa, and it sands like the best bit of balsa you ever had! lol

My next depron project, a Mike Whitakker MW2B-1, will be 'fully' built up from depron, rather than 'flat plate' flying surfaces. But that's another story!

Anyway, I'm off to try and fix the hideous cock-up I just made of the canopy - if it works, I'll post a pic, if not... ;)

[electricvirus]

all i can say is nice!!!
su39 is a fav of mine- poss future project with 2 edf50 brushless
anyway keep it up- and believe it will fly..yeah
mike

[Neil Straker]

Thanks electricvirus...

Today I did the canopy...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/bigcano.jpg

And started to add some detail...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/bigbilt.jpg

[Ron Laden]

Hi Neil

That looks very nice indeed, I,ve always liked the 39, something a little different.
I am going through a bit of a learning curve with depron at the moment, when you use the white, do you apply anything to achieve a smooth finish prior to painting or do you just rely on fine sanding.

Ron

[Neil Straker]

Ron, I'm no expert but here's what I do.

If it's white depron, it has a nice surface to it. If I haven't shaped it, I spray directly onto the depron. The black stuff is a little different, it doesn't seem to have the 'crisp' surface of the white.

On this model, as there was a lot of shaping and sanding involved, I used a water based filler mixed with water until it was like paint. Then I gave the model a coat of 'filler' with a 1/2' brush. I cut it back with fine wet'ndry and got it as smooth as I could. Then I just sprayed onto that.

[Ralph A. D'Amelio]

Nice job...really nice

Ralph

[Neil Straker]

Thanks Ralf, I'm just trying to pluck up the courage to 'dirty' her up. I really hate doing it, in the back of my mind I'm thinking 'this is really gonna bugger it up' lol

Still, it has to be done, maybe I'll have a couple of beers first :)

[Tram]

WOw.. she looks really good!

[Neil Straker]

:D

here's the clean 'canopy'

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/clean.jpg

and here it is dirty...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/dirty.jpg

[Neil Straker]

Stage 1 in the dirtification process complete :D

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/dirtyup.jpg

[intermision]

That looks awesome

[Cerulean Ghost]

Subscribed!

[Neil Straker]

:)

The next job is to start adding some panels. So, I masked the fin...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/finm.jpg

And gave it a spray...

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/finm1.jpg

The black 'weathering' looks a bit harsh, but fear not, that's where the organic sponge comes into its own... :D

[rdeters]

Keeps looking better and better! Great Job!

[electricvirus]

more update please!!!! :D :D :D
mike :cool:

[Neil Straker]

:D Funnily enough, I started work on it again a few days ago - gave it a rest while I made this:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/grotesk/finito.jpg

34" span chuckie/bungee - I posted about it in the foam bit, but no one was interested Lol

[Neil Straker]

So, all I need to do is fit this lot, and we'll be off :D

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/mess.jpg

[RNAF]

:D Funnily enough, I started work on it again a few days ago - gave it a rest while I made this:

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/grotesk/finito.jpg

34" span chuckie/bungee - I posted about it in the foam bit, but no one was interested Lol

I think it's a funny plane with nice round curves :-) I almost wanted to ask about the plans, but that's too predictable :-)

Grtz,
Dave

[eliotwebb]

this is great, ive just read the entire thread, thats such good work well done!!! where did you get the depron from, im also in the UK... can you link to a web site??

[kdwzagi]

this is a good supply
http://high-torque.com/uk/html/page13.html

or if you just want one sheet
http://www.beeline.mdlblueprint.co.uk/shop/acc.php

you do pay more for small amounts

kdw

[killerkiwi5]

BTW, those pods on the end dont contain electronics, they are the airbrakes. There's actually several peices of metal origamied into there, which fold open.

Edit: Very nice jet too!

[Neil Straker]

Well, it's been a while, but I've just about finished it! We have a club 'fly-in' this weekend so I had to get it finished!

http://www.electrifly.uk.com/su/calfrog.jpg

A little bit more to do, but here is Cally, my youngest and the model. I'm quite pleased with it to be honest :D

What do you reckon?

[Jman44]

Hey thats not a ornithopter lol. mods must have accidentally put this thread here