Looking for EPP Thermal Plane

[parrothead]

As I mentioned in another thread, Returning to R/C with Spirit ARF (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304427&page=2&pp=15) (last post on the page), I had a bit of a problem on launch today. My Spirit seemed to have a mind of its own as it veered left shortly after release on the high start and wouldn't respond to the controls. Let's just say that the empennage is repairable, but the wing is gone :( . I mean it looks like someone put a firecracker in the left wing and lit the fuse :eek: .
I don't have much money and I'm going to have to save up for a while to get back in the air. I was thinking of getting a new wing set for the Spirit, but aeajr made a wonderful suggestion :) . Due to the fact that I'm a beginner all over again and our flying field is strewn with gravel and rocks of all kinds, I think I'll get a foamie so that crashes mean a little epoxy work rather than a shattered wing and bouts of sorrow induced nausea ;) . I think a foamie would be a much better investment than a new wing for the Spirit.
So here's the big question - which plane should I get :confused: ? I want to fly off the club winch and my high start (one of the launches was awesome today :p ) and I want something that will thermal reasonably well. Aeajr suggested the Gentle Foamie and the Defiant. After reading both of the planes' web pages, I'm a bit more inclined to go with the Defiant, but I'm really undecided about which one to get. I'm not really familiar with airfoils (Defiant = S7055 Gentle Foamie = SD7037), but the wing loading looks about equal. One big difference is the price. The Gentle Foamie is $75 and the Defiant is $95. This plane is probably going to be around a while, so I'm willing to save up a while longer for the Defiant if it's truly a better flying and thermalling plane, but I don't want to spend the extra money if I won't really notice a differece ;) .
Here are the different planes' pages:
Defiant:
http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=1445
Gentle Foamie:
http://www.mtntoys.com/gf.html

Thanks in advance for all your time and effort helping me make an informed decision :) !!!

[aeajr]

The Foamie that I suggested, that you have in the post above, receive good reports. A Spirit or a Gentle Lady might be a better flyer in light air, but they can't take the punnishment that these to can take.

There have been others over time, but these are the two that I know of that are readily available today.

[aeajr]

Here is a thread on Gentle Foamy
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2432937#post2432937

[Tshires]

If it were my nickels! I'd go with the Defiant. But, would also ditch the coroplast tailfeathers and build balsa. I still have the tails of my first plane a Marks model Wanderer (1978). I have used them on several other fuses and wings combined, they survived when the rest did not. So I feel more posititive control is preffered as durability here is not an issue. Especially if you want to slope and reduce flutter of the tails. If you do crunch em they are cheap and easy to repair as they are small and flat.

[parrothead]

Thanks for the replies! That thread about the Gentle Foamie is good, but I'd like some good info on the Defiant, too. I'd probably go with the balsa tailfeathers too - those are easy enough to shape out of sheet balsa. I'd like to hear from people who have experience with these two planes if that's possible. Like I said, it's going to be a while, so there's plenty of time to sway my decision!
I know that the web pages are the manufacturers' advertising, but the Defiant emphasizes the plane's performance while the Gentle Foamie focuses on the fact that it's a beginner plane. Based on this, I'll probably go with the Defiant as I want something that will fly as closely to a Spirit as possible.
Any more info would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks guys!

PS - This will be my first foamy, so any info on which one has better instructions would also be very helpful!

[fprintf]

We had a local flier build the Defiant. One thing I can say is that the thing is darn ugly. I think it flies by the ground repelling it 'cause the fuse is so nasty looking.

But in all seriousness it flies quite nicely. I took the controls and will say that it flies pretty much like my EPP Highlander, which was the top selling (and flying) EPP thermal duration glider when it was in production. With that said, I do not think you can go wrong with either the Defiant or the Gentle Foamy. Around here I recommended the Defiant because the CRRC club now has a few, Dr. Williamson has highly recommended them, and therefore there is a somewhat local line of support available. I think you probably can get a similar line of support with the Gentle Foamy from whoever sells the plane.

Do not base your decision on what is posted on the web. Based on the many reports on the performance of Northeast Sailplanes customer service, I would be very cautious believing anything written on their pages. In my estimation you will get an equally good flying experience regardless of the plane you choose despite the characterizations in their marketing materials. Besides, I would *not* use the Spirit necessarily as a "good" flying benchmark -- adequate would be best. So with that said, roll the dice and pick the one that looks the best to you in pictures.

[aeajr]

Hey, fprintf, watch it on the Spirit comments. My baby might be listening!

I love that plane and feel it flies wonderfully.

(don't cry baby, he was talking about someone else's Spirit. Daddy loves you!!! :D )

[parrothead]

fprintf, I'm new to R/C all over again and I've only really had slope experience with a Wanderer, so the Spirit seemed to fly pretty well to me (especially when it caught that one thermal ;) . I just don't have much to compare it with, so I want to make sure my foamie will fly at least that well if possible.
I've read some horror stories of NSP customer service, so that and the higher price seem to be steering me towards the Gentle Foamie. Nobody at my club has either plane, so I should probably go with one that comes from a company that hasn't been bashed for its customer service. I'm still really undecided though because I read in that other thread that the Gentle Foamie flies OK while you say the Defiant flies like the Highlander which seems to have been a great plane. I guess I'll figure it out sometime.
We had a local flier build the Defiant. One thing I can say is that the thing is darn ugly. I think it flies by the ground repelling it 'cause the fuse is so nasty looking.
Thanks for making me laugh! I needed that! I agree that both planes leave a bit to be desired in the looks area, but maybe I could make that better with a nice looking color scheme :) . I'm thinking Thunderbirds with my proximity to their home base here at Nellis ;) .
I just remembered that I actually have two crunchies coming back to me from California, probably in January! An Easy Answer and an Explorer 2M should be here soon :D . I still think I'm going to get a foamie so that I can enjoy flying without worrying about every launch and landing resulting in serious damage while I re-learn how to do everything. Once I get better and more comfortable, I can use it to teach some new fliers like my girlfriend's nieces and nephew and anyone else who shows up at the site out of curiousity :) .
Thanks again for the reply and happy soaring!

[fprintf]

Hey, fprintf, watch it on the Spirit comments. My baby might be listening!

I love that plane and feel it flies wonderfully.

(don't cry baby, he was talking about someone else's Spirit. Daddy loves you!!! :D )

Aeajr, after flying a Chrysalis and a Skybench LilBird2 I can say without any reservation that the Spirit is an adequate performer. Comparatively speaking it is heavy and needs to be flown much too quickly for most beginners to learn to find thermals as well as they could with the other two planes. I say that in the full knowledge that my Highlander flies much like a Spirit and I also learned how to find thermals quite successfully with it. What the Spirit has going for it is oustanding marketing and a fully downloadable builders manual. I always say, however, that given the choice between a fragile balsa ship and a foamie I would buy the foamie until I could launch and land confidently. If, however, I were to buy a balsa ship, and its inherent breakability, why would I buy one that flies like a foamie?

[fprintf]

Parrothead, the foamie route is definitely a good one. Like I said in my response to aeajr they do not fly as well as a properly built balsa ship but you can learn to find thermals with them. It just takes a bit longer and a lot more patience, that is, pulling back the histart because you came down in 2 minutes for the umpteenth time. When I was learning I got a whole lot of exercise launching and made a ton of mistakes where the plane crashed like yours nose first at launch speed. No balsa sticks for me - just wipe off the mud and go fly some more.

In the other GF thread I read the comments about the GF versus the Highlander. If it flies *better* than the Highlander it is indeed a decent flier. Perfect for a newbie, although once you learn to fly then the plane will sit until a new flier comes along. I got 3 years of abuse out of my Highlander and now have recovered it for use as a trainer for my 9 year old. Good luck!

[parrothead]

Thanks for the input fprintf! Sounds like I'll probably get the Gentle Foamie. Who knows, maybe it'll become the club trainer when I'm done with it!

[Solcat]

http://www.upslopesailplanes.com/index.html

[parrothead]

Solcat, that Spinner looks pretty interesting - thanks for the link! I might just have to get me one of those :) ! Now I really have a tough choice to make! I've only got a four channel radio, but I think I could work it with the ailerons and elevator on the right stick, the rudder and flaps on the left stick (flaps on the throttle channel), and a little electronic mixer to mix the flaps and ailerons. The only drawback I see is the price. The 60" span is a double edged sword for me - it would be easier to transport, but my eyesight isn't perfect, so I couldn't go as far out there as I could with a 2M. Thanks for that very interesting info! Do you know if you can high start or (more importantly) winch it up? Happy soaring :D !

[wingbeat]

I'm happy with my Defiant, but I don't know that as a rank newbie I'd be able to tell any performance difference between the Defiant and any other foamie 2M polyhedral. I don't have enough experience, and because this is the only plane of this type I own or have flown, it's hard to say that a slightly different airfoil would make a huge difference to me at this point. As long as the construction and materials are quality- might as well go cheaper. I would if I had to do it over.

NSP was helpful until I paid for everything. After that, I sent them several build and technical questions and never received a response. This is unlike any other internet retailer I have done business with in this hobby. I'll leave it at that.

As far as the EPP? Love it. I've sloped it- read recent Concordia report on slopeflyer.com- in 20-25 mph winds! I've launched from a large hi-start, hand launched it as hard as I possibly could, landed it picture-perfectly in many a different species of tree, and absolutely pummeled it straight into the earth from about 100 feet up. 9 times out of ten I was able to throw it right back into flight after one of it's many cartwheels. And on rare occaison, when I had to repair something, it was never more than a glue job and about 20 minutes.

About the tail- one option; go ahead and use coroplast if you're starting out. You can always make a switch over and make some new balsa tail feathers. When I can pilot clear of those crazy and sudden gusts of gravity, I may switch over to balsa, but as it is I need the insurance of genuine plastic.

cheers.

[parrothead]

Wingbeat, thanks for that info from an actual user! After what I've read, I think I'll probably go with the Gentle Foamie - probably better customer service! I'll probably keep the stock plastic tailfeathers for a while, too.
those crazy and sudden gusts of gravity
Thanks for that laugh, too! Reminds me of one of my favorite Jimmy Buffett songs - "watch out for those gravity storms, They don't give no warning signs..." God knows both I and my planes have fallen victim to gravity storms on many occasions!

[Lavawing]

Parrothead:

I don't have a whole bucket of experience (less than a year) but I have put in some time on my buddy's Spirit. Set up with only Rudder/Elevator. It's fun.

The Spinner isn't just fun, it kinda Rocks! Much faster when you want it. Slows to nothing with flaps. I've flown one once, but fly my mini-Spinner (the now discontinued Thistle) all the time. (So again, my experience it a little off-whack.) Thermals and rips around the slope. Lots of aerobatic options. (Many of which I'm still learning.) Fairly tough in it's classic EPP/EPS wing mode (Tail is somewhat fragile. I'm finally learning to catch it most of the time. Or at least boink it onto the rocks on its tough nose instead of bringing it in for a nice, smooth, tail-grinding landing.) -- should be tougher yet with the newer all EPP wing.

I'm building a Spinner that I started as my first plane. Wasn't a good place to start since I didn't know ANYTHING when I started building. I set it aside for a couple other planes. Now with experience, it's coming along nicely.

Discus launch if you want. I'm planning on a bungee-hook in mine, just for fun. If you want a fat floater for thermals off a rubber band, it's probably not what you want. If you want to fly thermals, slermals, slope with aerobatics, and chuck it upward in anything from nothing to decent wind, you'll LOVE it.

Bad news: to get it flying best, you'll want the flapperons and mixes -- and need a better radio. Good/Bad/Good/Bad news: You get to build it.

[parrothead]

Lavawing:

Thanks for the info on the Spinner :) ! From what you've told me, I think I'm going to have to wait on this one. First, budget is a VERY BIG concern and I'd want the flapperons if I get one and that version costs quite a bit more than the RE only version. Second, I really don't have any building space. Third, I don't have any money for a better radio and there aren't any really good slope sites around here, so I really want to learn thermalling. I think I'll probably get one later on when I can get a better radio and I have a bit more experience ;) .
I think I've just about decided to get the Gentle Foamy now and I don't think I'll have to wait as long as I thought. I just talked to my friend back in San Diego who has my surf board and she's going to sell it for me along with my spring suit. I figure that should get me enough money for a Gentle Foamy and some construction materials :) ! I just hope it happens soon :D !
Have fun out there in Hawaii - I'm jealous of your location with the surfing, sloping, and thermals! Happy soaring :) !

[Lavawing]

Yeah, keep the Spinner in mind for your next plane. Makes sense to me. Have fun with the G-Foamy!

You are right. I'm kinda spoiled out here as far as the weather goes. (But before anyone gets ready to move here, let me list the long list of social ills...) The water is beautiful, I guess. I've been so obsessed with flying that I haven't gotten in the ocean for weeks!. Yikes!

[aeajr]

Solcat, that Spinner looks pretty interesting - thanks for the link! I might just have to get me one of those :) ! Now I really have a tough choice to make! I've only got a four channel radio, but I think I could work it with the ailerons and elevator on the right stick, the rudder and flaps on the left stick (flaps on the throttle channel), and a little electronic mixer to mix the flaps and ailerons. The only drawback I see is the price.

That is standard config for a 4 channel glider on a 4 channel radio. ;)

[parrothead]

aeajr, I thought so, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the confirmation :) !
Lavawing, I will definitely keep the Spinner in mind for my next plane :cool: !

[aeajr]

A discus launched glider is certainly a different approach.

[parrothead]

Yeah, it certainly is :) ! It seems like a good idea for a second plane - I'll have the Gentle Foamie before too long (probably about a month until I order it) and I should have the two crunchies by mid January, so I'll be set for thermal training on the winch and high start for a while :cool: . A DLG would be nice to take out to the local schoolyard and have some fun with as well as flying off the high start. I also hear there are some "interesting" slope sites around here with less than forgiving landing areas, so a plane like the Spinner would be good for those. The aerobatic capabilities sound like a lot of fun, too! Since I have family back in San Diego, I'd probably wind up taking it out to Torrey Pines along with one of my thermal floaters sometime in the future. I do miss flying at Torrey Pines on a windy weekday when I had the entire place all to myself with my Wanderer... :rolleyes:

[aeajr]

I just ordered this DLG

Boomer DLG flying wing
Looks like fun, reported to thermal pretty well,
easy transport in car, good for light slope lift
Product is being taken over by Mountian Models
This is a product review - be sure to watch the video
http://www.rcgroups.com/links/index.php?id=4524

[parrothead]

aeajr, I saw that and it does look interesting. It's probably going to be quite a while before I get another glider after the foamie, but thanks for the info!!!

[bwanajim]

Parrothead--Sorry to hear about your Spirit. However, unlike many of the folks who have posted in this thread, I'm not too thrilled about foam in general. It's frustrating to build, looks like absolute hell, and flies about like it looks. I'd make an exception for slope foamies, which seem to do very well indeed, apart from thier visual appearance.

I have a Highlander from around 1999, which I built with "straight" wings (i.e., dihedral only, no polyhedral), rudder/elevator/ailerons. We also have three of them that we use as club trainers configured with polyhedral wings and rudder/elevator. By all accounts, these may have been the best 2m foamies ever made. However, IMHO, none of them fly nearly as well as your average Gentle Lady (or Spirit, for that matter). They just don't seem to float very well...and of course, they look about like what they are - a bunch of carved up foam taped to the nines with filament strapping tape and covered with Oracover - not the most appealing planes you'll ever see.

I'd suggest that you consider why you are looking at foam. You had a problem on launch that probably had nothing to do with the Spirit design itself. More likely, you had mechanical or battery failure. Electronic failure is a possibility too, but less likely. Most of the time, when I see this kind of thing happen, it is because the linkages were not properly set up (servos installed with double sided tape, loose hinges, loose control horns, unsecured pushrods that buckle under stress, etc. Also, I see batteries that are not properly maintained (not delivering full capacity, bad cells that are never caught because of a lack of a testing regimen, launching with a near depleted pack that the pilot thinks is ok because it's still reading at 4.8v when in fact the voltage drops as soon as the higher loads of launching begin, etc).

I never understood the notion of choosing a plane under the assumption that you ARE going to crash it. Most crashes are caused by problems like the ones I mention above, or by flying in conditions that are beyond the plane's designed capabilities.

My $.02 would be to get a good flying plane, period. If you are low on funds, loads of cool classic kits come up on eBay all the time for as little as $20-40. Do a thorough preflight check, with special attention to battery condition, mechanical and electrical connections, etc., before launching. Join your local soaring club and get some help and flight instruction. And most importantly, go into it with the mindset that you are NOT going to crash.

--Jim

[parrothead]

bwanajim, Thanks for the thoughts and I really do hear what you're saying. The batteries were all freshly charged and are all brand new (less than 2 weeks old). The pushrods were built just like the instructions said with the wire on both ends of the hardwood dowels and the clevises are still perfectly attached to the rudder and elevator. The CG was exactly where the instructions say it should be and the tow hook was installed in the most forward position that was installed at the factory. All the radio gear including the servos is new, as well. I also did a preflight check just before launch and everything went just fine. The plane launched perfectly on the previous attempt, too. I'm a member of the local soaring club, but I was at the flying field alone that day.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to fly my built up planes :) ! I have those two balsa ships coming out to me in January and I intend to fly them quite a bit. There are several reasons I'm looking at foam. First, I'll admit that I'm a bit gunshy about the launch after what happened and I like the thought of getting used to launching with the assurance of a bad launch not meaning extensive rebuilding :o . Second, as I mentioned before, the club's flying field isn't very friendly to off carpet landings. The rocks are all around, fairly large (think baseball to basketball size), and very harsh on the bottom of a built up wing :eek: ! A goofed approach when I'm learning on my own (I can't always make it to the field when the rest of the club is there to fly) won't mean several hours of quality time with CA glue and a sealing iron with a foamie. Third, a foamie looks like a great way to learn to use the club's winch - it's not a plane ender if I goof it on launch. Last, but certainly not least, I really like the idea of teaching some young'uns the ins and outs of R/C soaring on a plane that I won't have to worry about really bad landings with. Basically, I don't have very much if any building space (otherwise I'd have built up a Gentle Lady ;) ) and I don't want to have to spend lots of time repairing after a less than perfect day in the desert. It's more of a confidence builder than anything else when I think about it.
I would love to go out to the flying field that I won't crash, but experience has proved otherwise. I just want something that I don't have to worry about as much every time I fly until I get really comfortable again. One other thing the Gentle Foamy has going for it is that it costs about the same as a new wing for the Spirit. I know foam doesn't fly as well as balsa, but I think it's a good idea for me.
Thanks again for your time and effort! Happy soaring and a very Merry Christmas!

[parrothead]

Alright everyone, I've found my plane and I just started the build! I received my Gentle Foamy kit on New Year's Eve, but I've been too busy to start building until tonight.
I've also started a build thread so everyone can see how this thing goes together and maybe decide if they want to get one for themselves or as a trainer for friends, family, or the local club. Here's a link to the build thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3117159#post3117159
Happy soaring!!!

[aeajr]

Parrothead,

Thanks for letting us know what you purchased. And thanks for the link to the build thread. I am eager to see how this planes goes together.

Ed Anderson