And the battery questions keep on coming

[mike]

What do these markings on my cells mean:

SEC0421
AV 1.164 (I'm guessing this is the cell voltage?)
Air 2.6
IR 18 (Internal resistance - the lower the better, right?)
CHG 5.0 (Recommended charge amperage?)
CTM 2669
MAH 3508 (How come a GP 3300 cell has 3508 MAH on the sticker?)
DIS 30 (Recommended max discharge amperage?)
CTF 0.95
DET 5000

[Dean]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:44 +1100, "mike"
<transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:

>What do these markings on my cells mean:
>
>SEC0421
>AV 1.164 (I'm guessing this is the cell voltage?)
>Air 2.6
>IR 18 (Internal resistance - the lower the better, right?)
>CHG 5.0 (Recommended charge amperage?)
>CTM 2669
>MAH 3508 (How come a GP 3300 cell has 3508 MAH on the sticker?)
>DIS 30 (Recommended max discharge amperage?)
>CTF 0.95
>DET 5000

These are markings off a matched pack.

sec is how many seconds it took to discharge down to the .95v cutoff at a rate
of 30 amps (the label says these rates and #'s further down)

av - average cell voltage over the entire discharge down to cutoff. higher AV
will have more top speed, and likely more punch but not always.

air - ? Never seen this one before I don't think Must be a internal
resistance. Maybe "actual internal resistance"? in ohms?

IR - a relative # (not in ohms) of the resistance of a cell. Lower = better =
more punchy

CHG - the rate the cell was charged at for the matching cycle. You don't have
to charge at this rate.

CTM - I have no idea, never seen this one before

MAH - the actual MAH the charger put out to peak the cell. There are
inneficiencies in charging so this will always be a little higher than the
actual capacity of the cell.
DIS - the discharge rate used for the matching process
CTF - the voltage cutoff used to stop the discharge process
DET - the max amount of seconds the discharge process will run. Good luck
hitting 5000 seconds!

Now, the AV is the golden gem of it all for stock class racing. All else being
equal, the car with the highest AV pack will win the drag race down the
straight.

But there are sneaky ways the cell matchers can manipulate this #

1. Change the discharge cutoff to a higher #. This will raise the overall
average voltage since less time will be spent at the lower voltage.

2. Charge the cell at a greater rate. This tends to bring the voltage up
slightly.

3. DIS - discharge at a lower rate will always bring up the AV.

Finally, some will only caculate the average voltage from the first 5 minutes or
so of discharge, since this is the actual length of a race. This will really
move the voltage up there, even though the cell may perform identically as one
that is a much lower voltage that has the average voltage calculated across the
whole discharge curve.
---
Losi XXX KE <the racer>
Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
http://ripperd.com
email: dean (at) the above domain

[mike]

Great, thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know, excellent! By the way I
just charged this pack and according to the charger, it ended up with 8.7
volts, which is WAY higher than any of my other packs. Can't wait to try it!
Mike


"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
news:dl9rr015aoh58oeno54ck9fmh0qec6ke1s@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:44 +1100, "mike"
> <transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> >What do these markings on my cells mean:
> >
> >SEC0421
> >AV 1.164 (I'm guessing this is the cell voltage?)
> >Air 2.6
> >IR 18 (Internal resistance - the lower the better, right?)
> >CHG 5.0 (Recommended charge amperage?)
> >CTM 2669
> >MAH 3508 (How come a GP 3300 cell has 3508 MAH on the sticker?)
> >DIS 30 (Recommended max discharge amperage?)
> >CTF 0.95
> >DET 5000
>
> These are markings off a matched pack.
>
> sec is how many seconds it took to discharge down to the .95v cutoff at a
rate
> of 30 amps (the label says these rates and #'s further down)
>
> av - average cell voltage over the entire discharge down to cutoff.
higher AV
> will have more top speed, and likely more punch but not always.
>
> air - ? Never seen this one before I don't think Must be a internal
> resistance. Maybe "actual internal resistance"? in ohms?
>
> IR - a relative # (not in ohms) of the resistance of a cell. Lower =
better =
> more punchy
>
> CHG - the rate the cell was charged at for the matching cycle. You don't
have
> to charge at this rate.
>
> CTM - I have no idea, never seen this one before
>
> MAH - the actual MAH the charger put out to peak the cell. There are
> inneficiencies in charging so this will always be a little higher than the
> actual capacity of the cell.
> DIS - the discharge rate used for the matching process
> CTF - the voltage cutoff used to stop the discharge process
> DET - the max amount of seconds the discharge process will run. Good luck
> hitting 5000 seconds!
>
> Now, the AV is the golden gem of it all for stock class racing. All else
being
> equal, the car with the highest AV pack will win the drag race down the
> straight.
>
> But there are sneaky ways the cell matchers can manipulate this #
>
> 1. Change the discharge cutoff to a higher #. This will raise the
overall
> average voltage since less time will be spent at the lower voltage.
>
> 2. Charge the cell at a greater rate. This tends to bring the voltage up
> slightly.
>
> 3. DIS - discharge at a lower rate will always bring up the AV.
>
> Finally, some will only caculate the average voltage from the first 5
minutes or
> so of discharge, since this is the actual length of a race. This will
really
> move the voltage up there, even though the cell may perform identically as
one
> that is a much lower voltage that has the average voltage calculated
across the
> whole discharge curve.
> ---
> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> http://ripperd.com
> email: dean (at) the above domain

[Dean]

Actually, given 2 packs in decent condition, the one with the lower PEAK voltage
under the charge cycle will have less IR, and will usually perform better.
Think of voltage as PUSH. If the charger has to have a higher voltage to push
energy into the battery, the battery has more resistance. Likewise, for
discharging the battery. If the battery has a high voltage under discharge, it
can PUSH out more energy, and make your car go faster.

So your other packs must have been in pretty bad shape if they peak under 8.7
volts.

My race bred 3300's usually reach about 9.1-9.3 volts peak. My other crappy and
beat up cells reach 10.0 and a couple go well into the 10's even the 11's.
Those packs have WAY less punch than the 3300's.

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:25:40 +1100, "mike"
<transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:

>Great, thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know, excellent! By the way I
>just charged this pack and according to the charger, it ended up with 8.7
>volts, which is WAY higher than any of my other packs. Can't wait to try it!
>Mike
>
>
>"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
>news:dl9rr015aoh58oeno54ck9fmh0qec6ke1s@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:44 +1100, "mike"
>> <transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >What do these markings on my cells mean:
>> >
>> >SEC0421
>> >AV 1.164 (I'm guessing this is the cell voltage?)
>> >Air 2.6
>> >IR 18 (Internal resistance - the lower the better, right?)
>> >CHG 5.0 (Recommended charge amperage?)
>> >CTM 2669
>> >MAH 3508 (How come a GP 3300 cell has 3508 MAH on the sticker?)
>> >DIS 30 (Recommended max discharge amperage?)
>> >CTF 0.95
>> >DET 5000
>>
>> These are markings off a matched pack.
>>
>> sec is how many seconds it took to discharge down to the .95v cutoff at a
>rate
>> of 30 amps (the label says these rates and #'s further down)
>>
>> av - average cell voltage over the entire discharge down to cutoff.
>higher AV
>> will have more top speed, and likely more punch but not always.
>>
>> air - ? Never seen this one before I don't think Must be a internal
>> resistance. Maybe "actual internal resistance"? in ohms?
>>
>> IR - a relative # (not in ohms) of the resistance of a cell. Lower =
>better =
>> more punchy
>>
>> CHG - the rate the cell was charged at for the matching cycle. You don't
>have
>> to charge at this rate.
>>
>> CTM - I have no idea, never seen this one before
>>
>> MAH - the actual MAH the charger put out to peak the cell. There are
>> inneficiencies in charging so this will always be a little higher than the
>> actual capacity of the cell.
>> DIS - the discharge rate used for the matching process
>> CTF - the voltage cutoff used to stop the discharge process
>> DET - the max amount of seconds the discharge process will run. Good luck
>> hitting 5000 seconds!
>>
>> Now, the AV is the golden gem of it all for stock class racing. All else
>being
>> equal, the car with the highest AV pack will win the drag race down the
>> straight.
>>
>> But there are sneaky ways the cell matchers can manipulate this #
>>
>> 1. Change the discharge cutoff to a higher #. This will raise the
>overall
>> average voltage since less time will be spent at the lower voltage.
>>
>> 2. Charge the cell at a greater rate. This tends to bring the voltage up
>> slightly.
>>
>> 3. DIS - discharge at a lower rate will always bring up the AV.
>>
>> Finally, some will only caculate the average voltage from the first 5
>minutes or
>> so of discharge, since this is the actual length of a race. This will
>really
>> move the voltage up there, even though the cell may perform identically as
>one
>> that is a much lower voltage that has the average voltage calculated
>across the
>> whole discharge curve.
>> ---
>> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
>> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
>> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
>> http://ripperd.com
>> email: dean (at) the above domain
>

---
Losi XXX KE <the racer>
Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
http://ripperd.com
email: dean (at) the above domain

[Olev Pihl]

BTW, the CTM is probably Charge TiMe in seconds.

-olev-

> "Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
> news:dl9rr015aoh58oeno54ck9fmh0qec6ke1s@4ax.com...
>
>>On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:44 +1100, "mike"
>><transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>>CTM 2669

>>CTM - I have no idea, never seen this one before

[mike]

OK,

I admit it, I'm simple ..... let me get this straight. On the Supernova
250S, when you've just CHARGED a pack, the lower the voltage readout the
better, and when you're DISCHARGING a pack the higher the voltage readout
the better? Do I have this straight? Here are the readouts for my packs
AFTER a complete DISCHARGE/CHARGE cycle on the Supernova 250S (D=3 amps, C=3
amps):

1. Venom 3000 mah Stick Pack Number 1:

3151 mah, 8.5 volts



2. Venom 3000 mah Stick Pack Number 2:

3301 mah, 8.5 volts



3. Venom 3000 mah Stick Pack Number 3:

3292 mah, 8.23 volts



4. Team Orion Rocket Gp3300 Stick Pack:

2973 mah, 8.27 volts



5. Fusion Batteries GP3300 Clubman Pack (these are the ones from which I
posted the cell markings):

3631 mah, 8.7 volts

So, according to the charger at least, which of these packs should be the
best?


MIKE

"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
news:f7nsr0pnb3gmqj325nksl12k2jvtq8berr@4ax.com...
> Actually, given 2 packs in decent condition, the one with the lower PEAK
voltage
> under the charge cycle will have less IR, and will usually perform better.
> Think of voltage as PUSH. If the charger has to have a higher voltage to
push
> energy into the battery, the battery has more resistance. Likewise, for
> discharging the battery. If the battery has a high voltage under
discharge, it
> can PUSH out more energy, and make your car go faster.
>
> So your other packs must have been in pretty bad shape if they peak under
8.7
> volts.
>
> My race bred 3300's usually reach about 9.1-9.3 volts peak. My other
crappy and
> beat up cells reach 10.0 and a couple go well into the 10's even the 11's.
> Those packs have WAY less punch than the 3300's.
>
> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:25:40 +1100, "mike"
> <transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> >Great, thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know, excellent! By the
way I
> >just charged this pack and according to the charger, it ended up with 8.7
> >volts, which is WAY higher than any of my other packs. Can't wait to try
it!
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
> >news:dl9rr015aoh58oeno54ck9fmh0qec6ke1s@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:44 +1100, "mike"
> >> <transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >What do these markings on my cells mean:
> >> >
> >> >SEC0421
> >> >AV 1.164 (I'm guessing this is the cell voltage?)
> >> >Air 2.6
> >> >IR 18 (Internal resistance - the lower the better, right?)
> >> >CHG 5.0 (Recommended charge amperage?)
> >> >CTM 2669
> >> >MAH 3508 (How come a GP 3300 cell has 3508 MAH on the sticker?)
> >> >DIS 30 (Recommended max discharge amperage?)
> >> >CTF 0.95
> >> >DET 5000
> >>
> >> These are markings off a matched pack.
> >>
> >> sec is how many seconds it took to discharge down to the .95v cutoff at
a
> >rate
> >> of 30 amps (the label says these rates and #'s further down)
> >>
> >> av - average cell voltage over the entire discharge down to cutoff.
> >higher AV
> >> will have more top speed, and likely more punch but not always.
> >>
> >> air - ? Never seen this one before I don't think Must be a internal
> >> resistance. Maybe "actual internal resistance"? in ohms?
> >>
> >> IR - a relative # (not in ohms) of the resistance of a cell. Lower =
> >better =
> >> more punchy
> >>
> >> CHG - the rate the cell was charged at for the matching cycle. You
don't
> >have
> >> to charge at this rate.
> >>
> >> CTM - I have no idea, never seen this one before
> >>
> >> MAH - the actual MAH the charger put out to peak the cell. There are
> >> inneficiencies in charging so this will always be a little higher than
the
> >> actual capacity of the cell.
> >> DIS - the discharge rate used for the matching process
> >> CTF - the voltage cutoff used to stop the discharge process
> >> DET - the max amount of seconds the discharge process will run. Good
luck
> >> hitting 5000 seconds!
> >>
> >> Now, the AV is the golden gem of it all for stock class racing. All
else
> >being
> >> equal, the car with the highest AV pack will win the drag race down the
> >> straight.
> >>
> >> But there are sneaky ways the cell matchers can manipulate this #
> >>
> >> 1. Change the discharge cutoff to a higher #. This will raise the
> >overall
> >> average voltage since less time will be spent at the lower voltage.
> >>
> >> 2. Charge the cell at a greater rate. This tends to bring the voltage
up
> >> slightly.
> >>
> >> 3. DIS - discharge at a lower rate will always bring up the AV.
> >>
> >> Finally, some will only caculate the average voltage from the first 5
> >minutes or
> >> so of discharge, since this is the actual length of a race. This will
> >really
> >> move the voltage up there, even though the cell may perform identically
as
> >one
> >> that is a much lower voltage that has the average voltage calculated
> >across the
> >> whole discharge curve.
> >> ---
> >> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> >> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> >> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> >> http://ripperd.com
> >> email: dean (at) the above domain
> >
>
> ---
> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> http://ripperd.com
> email: dean (at) the above domain

[Dean]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:56:40 +1100, "mike"
<transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:

>OK,
>
>I admit it, I'm simple ..... let me get this straight. On the Supernova
>250S, when you've just CHARGED a pack, the lower the voltage readout the
>better, and when you're DISCHARGING a pack the higher the voltage readout
>the better? Do I have this straight? Here are the readouts for my packs
>AFTER a complete DISCHARGE/CHARGE cycle on the Supernova 250S (D=3 amps, C=3
>amps):

<snip pack stats>

>So, according to the charger at least, which of these packs should be the
>best?

The voltage I was talking about was peak voltage while under CHARGE, not open
circuit voltage after charging. Float open circuit voltage doesn't really mean
alot. When measured during discharge, yes the higher voltage is better.


>"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
>news:f7nsr0pnb3gmqj325nksl12k2jvtq8berr@4ax.com...
>> Actually, given 2 packs in decent condition, the one with the lower PEAK
>voltage
>> under the charge cycle will have less IR, and will usually perform better.
>> Think of voltage as PUSH. If the charger has to have a higher voltage to
>push
>> energy into the battery, the battery has more resistance. Likewise, for
>> discharging the battery. If the battery has a high voltage under
>discharge, it
>> can PUSH out more energy, and make your car go faster.
>>
>> So your other packs must have been in pretty bad shape if they peak under
>8.7
>> volts.
>>
>> My race bred 3300's usually reach about 9.1-9.3 volts peak. My other
>crappy and
>> beat up cells reach 10.0 and a couple go well into the 10's even the 11's.
>> Those packs have WAY less punch than the 3300's.
>>
>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:25:40 +1100, "mike"
>> <transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >Great, thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know, excellent! By the
>way I
>> >just charged this pack and according to the charger, it ended up with 8.7
>> >volts, which is WAY higher than any of my other packs. Can't wait to try
>it!
>> >Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
>> >news:dl9rr015aoh58oeno54ck9fmh0qec6ke1s@4ax.com...
>> >> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 18:31:44 +1100, "mike"
>> >> <transam@<REMOVETHISINCLUDINGBRACKETS>netspace.net.au> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >What do these markings on my cells mean:
>> >> >
>> >> >SEC0421
>> >> >AV 1.164 (I'm guessing this is the cell voltage?)
>> >> >Air 2.6
>> >> >IR 18 (Internal resistance - the lower the better, right?)
>> >> >CHG 5.0 (Recommended charge amperage?)
>> >> >CTM 2669
>> >> >MAH 3508 (How come a GP 3300 cell has 3508 MAH on the sticker?)
>> >> >DIS 30 (Recommended max discharge amperage?)
>> >> >CTF 0.95
>> >> >DET 5000
>> >>
>> >> These are markings off a matched pack.
>> >>
>> >> sec is how many seconds it took to discharge down to the .95v cutoff at
>a
>> >rate
>> >> of 30 amps (the label says these rates and #'s further down)
>> >>
>> >> av - average cell voltage over the entire discharge down to cutoff.
>> >higher AV
>> >> will have more top speed, and likely more punch but not always.
>> >>
>> >> air - ? Never seen this one before I don't think Must be a internal
>> >> resistance. Maybe "actual internal resistance"? in ohms?
>> >>
>> >> IR - a relative # (not in ohms) of the resistance of a cell. Lower =
>> >better =
>> >> more punchy
>> >>
>> >> CHG - the rate the cell was charged at for the matching cycle. You
>don't
>> >have
>> >> to charge at this rate.
>> >>
>> >> CTM - I have no idea, never seen this one before
>> >>
>> >> MAH - the actual MAH the charger put out to peak the cell. There are
>> >> inneficiencies in charging so this will always be a little higher than
>the
>> >> actual capacity of the cell.
>> >> DIS - the discharge rate used for the matching process
>> >> CTF - the voltage cutoff used to stop the discharge process
>> >> DET - the max amount of seconds the discharge process will run. Good
>luck
>> >> hitting 5000 seconds!
>> >>
>> >> Now, the AV is the golden gem of it all for stock class racing. All
>else
>> >being
>> >> equal, the car with the highest AV pack will win the drag race down the
>> >> straight.
>> >>
>> >> But there are sneaky ways the cell matchers can manipulate this #
>> >>
>> >> 1. Change the discharge cutoff to a higher #. This will raise the
>> >overall
>> >> average voltage since less time will be spent at the lower voltage.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Charge the cell at a greater rate. This tends to bring the voltage
>up
>> >> slightly.
>> >>
>> >> 3. DIS - discharge at a lower rate will always bring up the AV.
>> >>
>> >> Finally, some will only caculate the average voltage from the first 5
>> >minutes or
>> >> so of discharge, since this is the actual length of a race. This will
>> >really
>> >> move the voltage up there, even though the cell may perform identically
>as
>> >one
>> >> that is a much lower voltage that has the average voltage calculated
>> >across the
>> >> whole discharge curve.
>> >> ---
>> >> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
>> >> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
>> >> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
>> >> http://ripperd.com
>> >> email: dean (at) the above domain
>> >
>>
>> ---
>> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
>> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
>> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
>> http://ripperd.com
>> email: dean (at) the above domain
>

---
Losi XXX KE <the racer>
Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
http://ripperd.com
email: dean (at) the above domain