questions: dischargers, damper oils, spring rates...

[sal_bass]

sorry to include so much in one post but i figure anyone can pick and
choose particular questions....


1. i'm currently using three, 1 year old, 3300 Trinity stick packs
with Tamiya connectors in two Tamiya touring cars. i seem to be
getting a bit less run time from each pack and i think it's time to
invest in a discharger to make sure they are getting discharged. as
it is, as soon as the pack looses it's punch, i'll remove the pack and
put another in. i suspect there is still a fair amount of charge in
them but no way of knowing. the Novak Ionic i have charger doesn't
have a way of showing. if it makes a difference, i do not race, nor
do i plan to, ever.

so i'm wondering, are there any downsides to either of these products?

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUE23&P=7

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEYM6&P=7


2. i've both a TA03F-S and TB01. most of the time i see suggestions
on damper oil viscosities and it's always on the heavy side. why so
heavy? i understand how dampers work but wouldn't having them too
stiff, limit the wheels ability to move with the irregularities in the
track surface. i also realize that most tracks are flat as glass.
but in my case, both of the chassis are used for rally type driving.
sand, smooth pavement, gravel over pavement, gravel only....every
surface possible.

so i guess my question is, outside of racing on glass flat surfaces,
wouldn't a lighter oil work better?


3. a similar question in regards to spring rates. i see a lot of the
blue Tamiya springs or the gold....stiff from what i can tell.

why not a softer spring?

4. in regards to using both lighter oils and spring rates, if the
issues some racers have with that set up is excessive sway/push, why
not use a lighter oil and springs and really firm sway bars? let the
sway bars resist sway and the damper oils and springs to keep the car
riding smooth.

[kenji]

In article <21afd625.0411282104.554334a2@posting.google.com>,
thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:

> 1. i'm currently using three, 1 year old, 3300 Trinity stick packs
> with Tamiya connectors in two Tamiya touring cars. i seem to be
> getting a bit less run time from each pack and i think it's time to
> invest in a discharger to make sure they are getting discharged.

How often are you using the packs? How many charge/discharge cycles do
you think the packs have had? How much does a discahrger cost?

[Dean]

On 28 Nov 2004 21:04:12 -0800, thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:

>sorry to include so much in one post but i figure anyone can pick and
>choose particular questions....
>
>
>1. i'm currently using three, 1 year old, 3300 Trinity stick packs
>with Tamiya connectors in two Tamiya touring cars. i seem to be
>getting a bit less run time from each pack and i think it's time to
>invest in a discharger to make sure they are getting discharged. as
>it is, as soon as the pack looses it's punch, i'll remove the pack and
>put another in. i suspect there is still a fair amount of charge in
>them but no way of knowing. the Novak Ionic i have charger doesn't
>have a way of showing. if it makes a difference, i do not race, nor
>do i plan to, ever.
>
>so i'm wondering, are there any downsides to either of these products?
>
>http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUE23&P=7
>
>http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEYM6&P=7


Get this for each pack, take them apart, and make them side-by-side packs.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKX33&P=7

Now, use a discharge tray, such as this:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHPC2&P=7

This will equalize the cells. Stick packs are impossible to equalize, and you
run the risk of reversing cells. I would recommend traying each pack once after
a race day, for 4-5 hours. No need to tray it after every run.

Hint #2, ditch the tayima connectors, they are very power robbing. I would
suggest either duratrax powerpoles, or dean's.

>2. i've both a TA03F-S and TB01. most of the time i see suggestions
>on damper oil viscosities and it's always on the heavy side. why so
>heavy? i understand how dampers work but wouldn't having them too
>stiff, limit the wheels ability to move with the irregularities in the
>track surface. i also realize that most tracks are flat as glass.
>but in my case, both of the chassis are used for rally type driving.
>sand, smooth pavement, gravel over pavement, gravel only....every
>surface possible.
>
>so i guess my question is, outside of racing on glass flat surfaces,
>wouldn't a lighter oil work better?

Couldn't tell ya about the on-road stuff. I know in our off road buggies we run
as light of oil as we can without bottoming on the biggest jump. usually around
25WT. It really helps settle the car in the uneven or rough sections and keep
the power to the ground.

>3. a similar question in regards to spring rates. i see a lot of the
>blue Tamiya springs or the gold....stiff from what i can tell.
>
>why not a softer spring?

As above, softest spring you can without getting too much body roll or
bottoming.

---
Losi XXX KE <the racer>
Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
http://ripperd.com
email: dean (at) the above domain

[sal_bass]

kenji <kenji@ripco.com> wrote in message news:<kenji-7B17DD.00063929112004@news.ftupet.com>...
> In article <21afd625.0411282104.554334a2@posting.google.com>,
> thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:
>
> > 1. i'm currently using three, 1 year old, 3300 Trinity stick packs
> > with Tamiya connectors in two Tamiya touring cars. i seem to be
> > getting a bit less run time from each pack and i think it's time to
> > invest in a discharger to make sure they are getting discharged.
>
> How often are you using the packs? How many charge/discharge cycles do
> you think the packs have had? How much does a discahrger cost?

i'm using three packs one right after the other, once on saturday and
once on sunday.

total discharge cycles? maybe 30 at most.

cost: well....the Deans one is about $40 USD but it has no shut off.
apparently Deans no longer makes the Black Box.

Futaba makes one that's about $40 as well but it's for Nitro reciever
packs and the tech said they've never used them on regular stick packs
and it doesn't come with the proper connectors.

i saw a Team Orion one that was nice looking and small, but again,
discontinued.

although, when i called WS Deans, the tech said that i was probably
doing well as is. he said wait for the pack to get to the first step
down in power and then put in a new one.

he did go on to say that not all packs can be perfect and they he's
seen some of the packs made form cells that are saved for the pro
racers and that those packs would dump and almost have no charge left.

[sal_bass]

Dean <look@sig> wrote in message news:<18bmq05p4h65i8vop6qi2jqdjh1q955kh8@4ax.com>...
> On 28 Nov 2004 21:04:12 -0800, thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:
>
> >sorry to include so much in one post but i figure anyone can pick and
> >choose particular questions....
> >
> >
> >1. i'm currently using three, 1 year old, 3300 Trinity stick packs
> >with Tamiya connectors in two Tamiya touring cars. i seem to be
> >getting a bit less run time from each pack and i think it's time to
> >invest in a discharger to make sure they are getting discharged. as
> >it is, as soon as the pack looses it's punch, i'll remove the pack and
> >put another in. i suspect there is still a fair amount of charge in
> >them but no way of knowing. the Novak Ionic i have charger doesn't
> >have a way of showing. if it makes a difference, i do not race, nor
> >do i plan to, ever.
> >
> >so i'm wondering, are there any downsides to either of these products?
> >
> >http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUE23&P=7
> >
> >http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEYM6&P=7
>
>
> Get this for each pack, take them apart, and make them side-by-side packs.
>
> http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKX33&P=7
>
> Now, use a discharge tray, such as this:
>
> http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHPC2&P=7
>
> This will equalize the cells. Stick packs are impossible to equalize, and you
> run the risk of reversing cells. I would recommend traying each pack once after
> a race day, for 4-5 hours. No need to tray it after every run.
>
> Hint #2, ditch the tayima connectors, they are very power robbing. I would
> suggest either duratrax powerpoles, or dean's.
>
> >2. i've both a TA03F-S and TB01. most of the time i see suggestions
> >on damper oil viscosities and it's always on the heavy side. why so
> >heavy? i understand how dampers work but wouldn't having them too
> >stiff, limit the wheels ability to move with the irregularities in the
> >track surface. i also realize that most tracks are flat as glass.
> >but in my case, both of the chassis are used for rally type driving.
> >sand, smooth pavement, gravel over pavement, gravel only....every
> >surface possible.
> >
> >so i guess my question is, outside of racing on glass flat surfaces,
> >wouldn't a lighter oil work better?
>
> Couldn't tell ya about the on-road stuff. I know in our off road buggies we run
> as light of oil as we can without bottoming on the biggest jump. usually around
> 25WT. It really helps settle the car in the uneven or rough sections and keep
> the power to the ground.
>
> >3. a similar question in regards to spring rates. i see a lot of the
> >blue Tamiya springs or the gold....stiff from what i can tell.
> >
> >why not a softer spring?
>
> As above, softest spring you can without getting too much body roll or
> bottoming.
>
> ---
> Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> http://ripperd.com
> email: dean (at) the above domain



thanks for the insight into the world of off road buggies....that's
exactly what i was looking for.

the two chassis i use can only run stick packs. also, i don't have a
soldering iron to do all sorts of wiring. and i have almost no
knowledge of amps, volts, milliamps, resistance....i'd probably end up
burning my house down.

[kenji]

You mentioned you are getting less runtime and think it may be the
batteries. You also mentioned you don't own a soldering iron. Now I'm
wondering what motors you are running? If you aren't maintaining your
motors (brushless not included), it may be possible your lack of runtime
is due to your motor(s). On road racing/bashing can really wear a motor
out quickly.

Motors need to have their brushes changed, commutators cut and need to
be lubricated on a regular basis. If you haven't done this in a year and
are still running the same motor(s) I'd work on doing upkeep on your
existing motor(s) first before you do anything else.


In article <21afd625.0411292007.4a6af81a@posting.google.com>,
thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:

--snipped-
> i'm using three packs one right after the other, once on saturday and
> once on sunday.

[sal_bass]

i'm using the stock Tamiya 540 silver can motors.

they have a sealed end bell which means i can't maintain the brushes.
but in simply gearing the car a bit faster i'm able to get the top
speed i prefer and not have to buy a lathe, com oil, brushes,
springs...and, at least in my mind, waste a lot of time delving deeper
into how the brush is cut and what type and springs and on and on.....

since i don't race, top speeds aren't an interest. i like a good
amount of torque and some top end.....i think both my chassis top out
at 28 mph? at least there. and with the variety of surfaces i run
them on, it doesn't benefit me to top out...or even try to.

i decided that since it was not in anway displeased by the performance
of the silver can motors, that i'd buy 4 and toss them out when the
brushes got wasted.

now i wonder if that's a contributing factor?

one other thing of note....i spoke to a tech at Trinity, Deans, Orion,
Dura Trax and two others i can't remember, and they all seemed to
mention that the dischargers they sold were not for stick pack but for
packs of individual batteries that were soldered individually to make
a pack.

so now i'm wondering if i could take a dean's bulb discharger and have
a Tamiya plug added to it to discharge these packs and see if it makes
a difference.

and if not....i'll dish it off for $10 and continue the current trend.

suggestions? addition comments?


having been involved in RC for only a year, it seems the push for
everything is for racing and top speed. sure...it's cool to see a car
whiz by at 45 but it's only for a few seconds and, at least for me,
pavement only driving leaves a lot to be desired.

maybe that's the big trend of RTR kits. get new people in, who just
want to "bash" and not take up their time with the painting and
assembly. seems a double edged sword.

the neighbor has a, from what i can tell, totally....and i mean
totally decked out T-Max. mostly aluminum and tons of Ti bits and
some $800 transmitter. he runs it in the street, in our neighborhood,
crashes, and then it's down for a few months cause he has the shop do
the repairs. it was built by the shop for him and he always seems
very unenthusiastic when driving. no real interest in how it works or
how to do basic tuning like needle adjustments....maybe he was getting
back at the ex wife. it was all put on her card before the divorce.
like $7000 of enough stuff to cover the floor of a living room.



kenji <kenji@ripco.com> wrote in message news:<kenji-16AABA.09054230112004@news.ftupet.com>...
> You mentioned you are getting less runtime and think it may be the
> batteries. You also mentioned you don't own a soldering iron. Now I'm
> wondering what motors you are running? If you aren't maintaining your
> motors (brushless not included), it may be possible your lack of runtime
> is due to your motor(s). On road racing/bashing can really wear a motor
> out quickly.
>
> Motors need to have their brushes changed, commutators cut and need to
> be lubricated on a regular basis. If you haven't done this in a year and
> are still running the same motor(s) I'd work on doing upkeep on your
> existing motor(s) first before you do anything else.
>
>
> In article <21afd625.0411292007.4a6af81a@posting.google.com>,
> thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:
>
> --snipped-
> > i'm using three packs one right after the other, once on saturday and
> > once on sunday.

[kenji]

In article <21afd625.0411302244.21d5c498@posting.google.com>,
thecontact_509@hotmail.com (sal_bass) wrote:

> suggestions? addition comments?

Get a soldering Iron so you can make your own discharger. Use stock
motors like the Monster or the Fantom, find a source that can cut the
commutator for you and replace the brushes regularly and use motor
spray. If you are going to stick with the non-rebuildable motors get
some motor spray and use it regularly.

If money isn't too much of an object but maintenance of motors is a pain
get a brushless motor and ESC. You can run all you want and never have
to do anything to the motor. Maximum fun time with no hassle. But...if
you are going to race at a track, I don't think you mentioned that, many
places won't let you use a brushless.

But back to the original idea....I'd bet the non-rebuildable motors are
what are zapping your runtimes not so much the batteries.

[thecontact_509@hotmail.com]

i'm not sure it's the motor. the only packs that seem to be slightly
losing their top punch run time are the 1 year old GP cell sticks
packs. the 4 month old Sanyo cell packs are still ok.

got it. motor spray is the next thing. what's a good safe interval
for cleaning the motor with the spray?

also, i put in a big order for some new stuff and added a Deans bulb
discharger to the list.
i figure, i'll try that and see if it makes a difference.

[thecontact_509@hotmail.com]

ok...a general update.....regarding the batts...

got the Deans bulb discharger, snipped off the Deans connector and
added a Tamiya plug....got all 6 Mah3300 stick packs that i have and
hooked them up to see if the packs were being discharged enough during
use or if it's something else altogether....

each pack was hooked up to the discharger and to my surprize....the
bulbs stayed brightly lit for a minimum of a minute and half....

i discharged them all and then charged them all. they took a full 35
minutes even to peak.

i set each pack in the car and got a full hour run time with enough
punch to satisfy me to no end.

so i think the guy at Deans got it...i wasn't running the packs down
far enough....

thanks to all for the help...

also got a set of softer springs and lighter oil and the car runs
great!