DMA Flea

[Andy W]

Anyone have tips and tricks for this model? I'm getting two of them via the nice brown truck who brings the toys today.. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Yes I do. Send me an e-mail and we can discuss all the details. Can you open AutoCAD drawing files?

[Andy W]

Sent..

[Steve McBride]

Can you keep the discussion going on here too? I am interested in the flea as an 010 pylon racer.

Thanks all!!

Steve McBride

[Dr. Jet]

Ok, I got Andy's e-mail, but I will start the discussion here first. The kit is simple to build and the laser cut parts make it a snap. The shear webs are also laser cut so it makes it real fast to build the wing.

Steve at DMA insisted on using spruce spars, but the prototype (and all the ones I have built for my own use) have 1/4 x 1/16 hard balsa spars. With the shear webs and ply center brace coupled with a light airframe and a short wingspan, you don't need spruce. Steve thought it would be easier to supply spruce so as not to have to pick through strip wood to find hard balsa and he thought customers would be "offended" by balsa spars.

Secondly, do a LOT of sanding on the nose and the "rings" that go on the front so as to get a pleasing, rounded shape. In fact, do a lot of sanding everywhere. the trailing edges of the rudder and elevator should be almost paper thin. Also sand the trailing edge of the wing to a sharp edge before you cut the ailerons out. Reduces weight and makes it faster. Steve should have the 'E' model in production, but there may still be a few 'D's out there. The 'E' has lightening holes in the fuselage sides in the rear.

The wing tips use little "false ribs" that you make from 1/16 scrap. Do not leave these off as they add a lot of strength to the tips without adding much weight.

As for weight, I covered the turtle deck, fuselage sides (if they have holes in them) and elevator with silkspan and dope. Use something more substantial for the wing, otherwise you will poke it full of holes (I know!). Put a couple of coats of dope on the rest of the fuselage and tailfeathers and call it done. I also added some 1-oz. glass to the bottom of the fuse to make landing on sandpaper easier on it. On later models, I skipped the 'glass and used motorcycle number backing tape (available at motorcycle shops that specialize in off-road cycles). It's great stuff and will follow compound curves with a little coaxing from a heat gun. It makes it a little heavier, but it sure protects the bottom. I've built them as light as 11 oz. ready to fly with a Speed 300 and I think with an 010 and smaller batteries, you could get it to around 9 oz. 20 lap pylon races anyone? I do not know if the 010 will fit in the narrow nose though. It is a tight fit (diameter) for the Speed 300. You may have to shorten the nose to fit the larger diameter motor.

Any more questions?

[This message has been edited by Dr. Jet (edited 10-13-2000).]

[Dr. Jet]

Another thought. I had hoped the Flea would catch on as a one-design racer for those who did not want to cough up a couple of hundred bucks foa a competitive (and scary fast) full blown racer. It is much slower than a Stinger 400 and much easier to fly. And if you are interested in 2-channel aerobatics, it's hard to beat and it is available at a reasonable price.

[Andy W]

Thanks for the information.. I plan to get the entire airframe done for both models together, don't think it should take more than a few hours.
However, I see some potential problems here.. for one, I have one kit with plans marked "B" and another with "C". The fuse of the "B" is solid balsa, the other has a couple of places where there are three rectangular holes in a row that for the fuse formers. Neither has lightening holes.
FWIW, I got these from Kirk @ New Creations, but he only had one in stock, so the other came direct from DMA - meaning he's still sending out C's? As far as I can tell that's the only difference, but what do the D and E kits have different, and should I be concerned?
Thanks!
..a

[Andy W]

Oh, I plan to build the airframe with titebond. This OK? I much prefer this to CA..
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
The B model added lightening holes in the ribs, a rotated leading edge ("fishmouth" ribs), and a different turtledeck center support. The C model changed the grain on the wing bolt plate, added former indexing holes, and some other minor changes I don't recall. The D model added big lightening holes in the aft fuselage sides (the fuse didn't break, so it was too strong). The E model added slotted motor mount screw holes and a slightly larger center hole to fit the Mpx280BB as well as the S-300. Don't worry about it, the average modeler can make any of these mods if they wish. I can send a CAD .dwg or .dxf file if you need.

I really like this little airplane, but it never caught on, probably due to people's lack of experience with the Speed 300 motor.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Jet (edited 10-13-2000).]

[Andy W]

How about my glue choice?
Also, we plan to fly on the 280BB also.. 7 (500AR) cells.. Prop choice - 5x2? Those come later, however..
..a

[poobs]

Yes!!! Please do share your tips,tricks & findings on the flea. I'm "itching" to get something like this.

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
I use thin CA almost exclusively. It's light enough (just a drop will do) and dries fast. If you are a masochist, you could use Titebond thinned 50% with water.

[Steve McBride]

Originally posted by Dr. Jet:
I've built them as light as 11 oz. ready to fly with a Speed 300 and I think with an 010 and smaller batteries, you could get it to around 9 oz. 20 lap pylon races anyone? I do not know if the 010 will fit in the narrow nose though. It is a tight fit (diameter) for the Speed 300. You may have to shorten the nose to fit the larger diameter motor.
(edited 10-13-2000).]

I think it should fit. It's a bit smaller and much shorter than a speed 280. The cells would be 700mah AAA hydrides at about 3.2 ounces. I think 10 ounces would be easy, and sub 10 a possibility. 8 cells on a 4.75 x 4.75 prop should zip it around nicely http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

Thanks for the great input. I'll order one soon.

Steve

[Andy W]

Just fyi: 02:20 and the wings are about ready for ailerons to be cut out. This is for two wings, building both kits at the same time.
..a

[Andy W]

About 05:00 and both fuses are half sheeted.
This laser cut stuff is so much easier (my first three balsa kits were die-cut. The X250 and now the two Fleas are laser.. wow, what a difference). Just wish there were 36 hours in a day, then I could catch up.
..a

[Andy W]

Uh oh..
I glued the bottom sheeting with lengthwise grain, not crosswise. Will that make much difference? Regardless, I was thinking of attaching a sheet of light glass to the entire bottom, applied with poly-u. Think that would strengthen it back up?
..a

[Dr. Jet]

GASP!
Now Andy, you should know that top and bottom sheeting should be crossgrain! http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif It will be ok since the fuse is WAY stronger than it needs to be. A little light 'glass will help.

[Andy W]

Thanks.. (phew!)
..a

[Steve McBride]

Sounds like a quick builder http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif Thanks for the update thus far. Where did you order your kits from (who has them in stock)? What do you plan to use for covering?

Can't wait to hear how it flies!!

Thanks again.

Steve McBride

[Andy W]

Well-designed laser-cut kits just go together quickly, it seems. Monokote for covering (I can hear Dr.Jet gasping as I type) - we're building them for sport, not speed. I plan to use bright colors, and have lots of flourescant monokote laying around. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif
Bought them from New Creations - he actually only had one when I ordered, but got more in, so I know he has them right now..
..a

[Steve McBride]

You know, I was looking through New Creations catalog last night and I really don't see much of a difference, specification wise, between the SkaT and the Flea other than the materials used for construction. I assume the SkaT has a faster airfoil, but the wingspan and weight seem to be about the same. Why not just use a 280BB in a SkaT? I mean I like the looks of the Flea, but the SkaT is so easy to build and flys great on an AF 010 brushless, I am sure it would work great on a 280.

Just a comment.....

Steve

[maustin]

I just have to throw my comment in here. I built a Flea a while back and used Dr. Jet's advice on putting the 'glass on the bottom. It has been nice to have for the landing and some more strength to the fuse. I have to second what he said about the fuse being way stronger than it needs to be though. I got dissoriented showing off this sporty plane to my Dad and brother and the next thing I knew I'd barrelled it straight into the ground from about 30 feet up, full throttle, nose first. All that happened was the motor mount broke out, pushing the motor in up to the broken prop, and some minor cracks in the LE of the wing and sides by the fuse bulkhead former up front. I came in so hard, I thought I was going to have to rebuild. Instead, all I did was take off the nose covering repair with some thin and med. CA and recover. All in all about 1 hour of repair (I'm a slow worker).

Andy, I also used Monokote and even some metallic blue Lustrekote spray paint for contrast on the wingtips. On the tail feathers though I mixed watercolor paint with water based Varathane, about 3 or 4 coats looks real nice. With all this added weight I still only came in at 11.5 oz. ready to fly with a 7cell 600AE pack and a permax 280bb motor. With the stock 300 motor and a 6 cell 500 pack I was right on 11 oz. As is stated in the instructions, you can save a lot of weight by doing some good sanding http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

BTW I love the performance with the 280bb and a graupner 5x5 cam prop. I can fly at less than full throttle with aerobatics and I get over 8 minutes without worrying about throttle management.

My favorite thing about this plane is how well it flies inverted. This is the first plane I've had that has been so stable upside down. I'm learning how to do some simple aerobatics with this and can keep it in the back seat of my car ready to fly at a moments notice.

I'm tempted to build some more kits and sell them at my cost just so that other people around the field can see what a well designed electric plane can do. Besides I kind of like building these laser cut kits.


[This message has been edited by maustin (edited 10-24-2000).]

[niek]

I use the sp300 a lot in a DF.
Also geared 1:5 in a 'slow'flyer whit a 10x4.7, easy chopping trough the other indoor planes. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

Want to give direct drive a try (outdoors) too.

So the question is:
which prop do i have to use on a sp300, and how many cells?

Same question for the sp280bb.

Thanks in advance.


[This message has been edited by niek (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Andy W]

One thing I've thought about is just glassing the entire fuse (using poly-u to apply it), and then painting it. Just for something different, not really for strength..
What'd'ya think?
..a

[poobs]

maustin

If you really want to sell planes at cost or even at a reasonable profit, you can put me down on your list of customers. I enjoy building but time to do the building is a comodity that i don't have. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/frown.gif

The flea sounds very nice and I'm "ITCHING" to fly one. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

Thanks,

[niek]

Ding dong,
anybody here?

[poobs]

Niek;

I know what you mean....I guess the "Pyloners" get up late.

Surprisingly, this isn't the fastest response group.

http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

[DaveSawers]

If you're waiting for answers to the 280 and 300 motors questions, I guess you'd be better off asking in the slow fly forum. They're not exactly pylon motors.

[Andy W]

(or starting a separate topic, although the dragonfly - assuming that's what you mean by DF - is not a pylon model!)

[maustin]

Niek,
Sorry about nobody offering a response sooner. I've been thinking about it, but assumed that someone with more knowledge than me would answer first. But here's what I've experienced with the 300 and 280 motors.

On the 300 direct drive I've only used the Graupner 5X2 nylon prop with adapter. Works fine, but you need to keep the cell count down to 6, and even then using 500ARs, on my Flea I get about 4 minutes duration, tops. Using 7 cells definitely ups speed, but my duration was cut considerably and the 300 won't stand up long with that voltage (very small brushes).

Moving to the Permax280BB, which is a hotter motor than the normal Graupner variety 280, it was recommended to me to use the Graupner 5X5 CAM prop, or you can use the APC variety also. With the 280BB I would use 7 cells. With 7X600mah on the Flea, I get over 8 minutes, the pitch is high enough that I don't need full throttle except for going vertical. I also tried 6x500AR's, and didn't like the performance as well, needed full throttle more, limiting flight time to about 3.5 minutes.

I like this size plane and the speed I'm getting with the CAM prop, but I probably like flying slower than most pylon type folks. I've thought of using a prop with lest pitch and maybe more diameter on the 280bb, to increase duration and thrust. I don't have any more 5X2's, but I think that would be to little anyhow. I'm thinking of trying a 6X4 or thereabouts, I'll let you know when I get a chance. It may be a little while though as I'm in Korea for the next week and a half playing Army.

I've also used the 300 on my Nora with the Horst gearbox, 4:1 ratio and an 8x6 prop. That made it a nice moving large-park flyer, but I think that the 280bb is the way to go for those type of applications as far as durability and better flight times.

[This message has been edited by maustin (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Dr. Jet]

maustin,
You are 100% correct! http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

[maustin]

Dr. Jet,

I better be, I was quoting you! http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

[niek]

Thank you!

I am going to try something with the sp280BB.

By the way,
Know an adres where I can get the Fly in Europe?
What does it cost in euro's?

[DaveSawers]

It's probably several thousand Euros by now, and getting more every day. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

Oh no, actually it's a mere $49.95 US - which is only about 65 Euros. Check it out at http://flydma.com/planes.html#flea

I don't think Diversity supply shops, so you'll have to go direct.

[Dr. Jet]

Well Andy, are they done yet? Or are you too busy typing? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Andy W]

<img src=http://www.mindspring.com/~andyw/twins.jpg>
Next: sanding.. lots of sanding.. (already did some basic rounding and shaping of the nose). Paused the fuse construction to get the servos from Ric (we're both using 55's), as well as needing the Graupner spinner to match the nose shape/size. 06:18 To this point.
..a

[Sleightist]

Wow, those things look cool, and 8 minutes of flight on 7-cell 600ae's sounds sweeeeet!
I'm currently building a combination of two planes.The fuse from a Sport 400(from an older ezone article)and a sheeted foam wing from an old 1/2A plane I had(tapered cord ace simple foam wing).
I pulled the old covering off of the old wing, cut out the dihedral, and made the leading edge straight across so the trailing edge has a slight taper to the tips. Sorta like the switchblade.
I sheeted the bottom of the wing, and added the leading and trailing edges before I sheeted the top so I could "honeycomb" the foam core(an old pattern plane trick) then when done sheeted the top.
I was originally building it for a speed 400 motor, but after seeing 8min. flight times I'm thinking of putting a 280 permax in it!!
I also think I may get myself one of those fleas they look like fun!
I've already got several 7cell 600ae packs from my zagi 400 that I'm converting to a 400X night flyer(with glowire)so I'll have extra packs laying around.
I'm hoping for a plane that's perfect for just leaving in my car and flying at a moments notice, with slightly better performance and flight time than my zagi(my current "moments notice plane".

Thanks for all the info!!

[Steve McBride]

Just curious about an update.....I would hate to see this slip the bottom of the list http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

Looking forward to the first flight reports.

Steve

[Andy W]

It's on top right now.. Zagi is done, Twister is flying (just got 020 in, however). In fact, the Fleas are sitting on our dining room table. No progress to report, however..
..a

[poobs]

Careful Andy! Those fleas could breed. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

My Bill Grigg's Rocket is ready - waiting for a calm morning, a steady hand and an hour of free time. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Deane]

Where do I go to look for the DMA Flea?

[DaveSawers]

http://flydma.com/planes.html#flea

[Dr. Jet]

Well Andy? Are you building?? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/rolleyes.gif

[Dr. Jet]

Andy should be flying them by now..........

[Andy W]

That's funny.. I posted a response here a few days ago and now it's gone..
No, nothing doing on the Flea's just yet - got toegther with Ric and talked about what had to be done.
Question for Dr. Jet: the nose does not take a graupner race-like spinner? Just a regular prop adapter? The nose ring is only 28mm to begin with, and the smallest they make is 30mm. Looks like there's no race spinner on this picture:
<img src=http://www.flydma.com/images/image4.gif>

Finally, here's my daughter's (2 years) attempt to help dad to get them finished.. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif
<img src=http://www.mindspring.com/~andyw/pins.jpg>
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
No race spinner (couldn't find one readily available for the 2mm shaft), just the prop adapter. Paint the inside black and it will look plenty cool. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Andy W]

For those that have been following, I spent another two hours on the fleas tonite - cut three out of four ailerons (my jig slipped on one, so I've glued the TE back together and will try again in the a.m.). Both fuses are complete, except for final sanding, which I also plan to do along with the wings tomorrow.. Then "just" need to trim and shape tail feathers, install aileron servo mounts and linkages, glass the bottom, and cover. I say "just" as I know it can take longer to do those fiddly bits than build the structure!
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Andy W]

Not until my folks leave week after next.. no time to do any R/C (except keep up on the E Zone!). The fuselages are sanded now, and the ailerons cut. I lost my upstairs building space (dining room table) as Thanksgiving is coming.. Lab is too cluttered with other projects right now..
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Andy W]

They leave Friday.. then I can claim my dining room table again and finish them. I have a lab, but it has several pieces of other projects scattered around under repair or build right now. Need longer days.. 36 hours would cover it..
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Andy W]

QUIT ALREADY! http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[berniep1]

I'm pretty sure by now that Andy is in fact never going to fly those things... http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

[Dr. Jet]

What do you think will happen first? Andy gets 10,000 posts, or he finishes and flys these things?

Maybe I'll start a new thread..... http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

[Andy W]

Leading edges sanded.. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Ah! Progress! You should be able to fly these things by Friday, right? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[berniep1]

Dr. Jet

You better ask Andy what month & year he had in mind... http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Jim Miller]

Received my two Fleas from DMA on 12/16. I plan to build one "stock" and save the second for a kit bash after learning from the first.

My print reads "C" version but I have slotted holes in the motor mount and no lighting holes in the balsa sides so I'm not sure what I've really got compared the the B, C, D, E descriptions given previously.

Could someone send/post the location and sizes of the recommended lighning holes in the fuse?

Also I put my 010 up next to the motor mount and the mounting screws in the face of the 010 seem to line up fine and the diameter is just under the diameter of the mount so it should fit fine.

I've never done the dope and silkspan/polyspan thing but keeping the fuse lite makes sense. How does one add color? I'm planning on transparent monokote for the wings which is quite a bit lighter than the solid color stuff yet just as much torsional strength.

jim (excited!)

[Andy W]

You'll probably have it flying before I do.. between travel and Christmas, I doubt I'll even get back to mine until the new year.. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/frown.gif
..a

[Dr. Jet]

Andy,
Are you ever going to finish and fly these things? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Far4nugn]

Hey guys, thought I'd let you know I placed an order for the flea on Friday... I'll keep ya updated.

tata'

[Dr. Jet]

I bet yours will be done before Andy's http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Far4nugn]

Got the Flea yesterday and spent about 20 minutes on it last night. Got the wing framed up except the tips and TE. VERY impressed with the kit. Its my first laser cut kit and I dont know if I'll ever go back. Very good balsa and ply, very good plans.

I've been very happy with DMA's service as well. I ordered the kit Friday, and it was here Tuesday from CA to NC, $5 shipping!

Highly recommended so far. Will do more on it tonight.

tata

[Dr. Jet]

Are you listening Andy? Are you spending too much time adding memory to your transmitter without adding Fleas to your fleet?

[Andy W]

I can't not respond, cos you know I'm lurking here.. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif
Progress is slow, and will be further hindered when my Sirius shows up! The aileron servo control rods are somewhat tedious (compared to the airframe and wings!). It's a mental block. I'm out of excuses! http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/redface.gif
..a

[Jim Miller]

Originally posted by Dr. Jet:
As for weight, I covered the turtle deck, fuselage sides (if they have holes in them) and elevator with silkspan and dope. Use something more substantial for the wing, otherwise you will poke it full of holes (I know!). Put a couple of coats of dope on the rest of the fuselage and tailfeathers and call it done. I also added some 1-oz. glass to the bottom of the fuse to make landing on sandpaper easier on it. Any more questions?

Doc
Could Micafilm be substituted for Monokote on the wings? Would it help with the weight?

Do you glass the bottom front of the fuse before or after you use the silkspan?

Gotta make a run to the LHS tomorrow to get covering materials!

tnx
jtm

[Dr. Jet]

Jim,
When trying to build really light, I do not cover sheet balsa with the silkspan (or Micafilm). I land on #2 grit sandpaper (our runway), so I put the 'glass on last. The thing is so light that even the Micafilm should provide a modicum of protection.

[Gerald]

I think Andy must've opened the Somethin' Extra box. Tsk Tsk.

Far4nugn's gonna loan me his plans. Maybe I can get Cue to build one too & we'll have the Raleigh team practicing laps around the goalposts at the Leesville oval. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/cool.gif

[Jim Miller]

The elevator linkage supplied with the Flea seems strong enough for a 4 engine transport with commensurate weight. Is this amount of strength needed on this type of plane? What have others used for alternatives?
tnx
jtm (wanting to make only one 20 mile trip to LHS)

[This message has been edited by Jim Miller (edited 01-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Miller (edited 01-04-2001).]

[maustin]

Jim,
I used some carbon rod that I had on the workbench(about the same diameter of included aluminum rod, sorry I don't have the plane right now to measure). for the end connections, the nylon type clevis supplied fit on very snuggly directly to the carbon rod, and then I CA'd it in place. At the servo end I made a z-bend out of small diameter music wire and used pre-shrunk shrink tubing to attach it to the carbon rod, after setting the right distance on the servo, just hit with some CA and it's been good to go for about 5 months now, flying about once or twice a week, including one really nice nose first dive from about 30 feet up when I got disoriented (you'd be surprised how well the plane survived, not to mention my tiny HS 50 servos http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif It's a very sturdy birdy!)

I know this wasn't a very clear description, it's actually an easier setup to make than to try and explain. I've liked it, but I'm not so sure I'd worry about that aspect of the kit if I built another one. I'm curious to see what others have done with it too though.

[Far4nugn]

Flea Progress Report: About 1h 30m of work so far. Sorry, the girlfriend's mother is in town, otherwise it'd be done (and crashed) by now http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif Wing needs ailerons and sanding. Fuse sanded round(ish), no aft deck or feathers yet. Sanding went quicker than expected (I used a 1/4 sheet random orbital and 120 paper!) Very appealing shape.

Anyways, no action this w/e http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/frown.gif

I think I'm going to try my own method on the aileron and elev horns. I like the carbon rod idea, but additionally, I'll just make the horns out of carbon rods and 'tie' them to the pushrods (of the same diameter) with a flexed piece of heat shrink tubing. I've tried this before on a S400 plane's ailerons and it worked flawlessly. It does take some extra time to set up however, but no longer than Dr. Jet's arrangement and is very light.

Can I use HS-55s?
Am I crazy to be considering speed400 motor?

Scott

PS.. Gerald, Cue could do laps w/ the shrike while we whoop him w/ the flea's http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

[Jim Miller]

Mike thanks for the carbon rod tip. I understand it completely!

Scott
I'm using HS55s and am going to try using adjacent servo arms to provide a 90 degree separation for the aileron differential.

I had already trimmed the top and bottom flanges off a HS80 servo wheel which I was going to 0-80 to the native HS55 arm when I thought of this simpler way.

Will 90 degree separation be too much? I can always drop back to the wheel idea later for more custom settings.

Picked up the Graupner spinner and props this afternoon. Really nice stuff! I'll fair the fuselage to them. Did I mention they were really nice? <g>

jtm (having fun)

[Jim Miller]

Dr Jet

Wing is built now onto the fuse.

I'm going to have to install the AF010 back a bit to fit in the nose of the Flea, probably 1/8 in. How significant is the 1/8in motor mount in providing burst (or other) strength to the nose? I assume it was 1/8in to provide adequate strength to support the Speed 300 and perhaps a convenient size given the bulkheads were also out of 1/8. The AF010 is 30gms which I suspect is lighter.

I was considering making a new mount to fit the 25mm case of the motor out of 1/16 ply to allow more of the 7mm long shaft to protrude to grab with the Graupner prop adapter. I'm going to add about 1/16 to the front on the top, bottom and sides to provide some meat to fair to the 30mm Graupner adapter hub.

All in all I suspect with shortening the nose by 1/8, thinning the motor mount and leaving off the front balsa rings it will be a bit lighter than stock even after adding some 1/16th side material for fairing meat.

Any need to add a wrap of 1oz glass an inch or so around the nose to add back any strength?

Also the motor is shown mounted with quite a bit of down. Do you find that is always necessary with the CG as shown at 4cm behind the LE?

tnx
jtm

[Far4nugn]

Hey guys,
Progress on the Flea is halted while I complete a new wing project for my scratch-built funfly plane. It will soon be a dual-purpose plane when I finish the new wing. Its a foam-core, 3/4 oz. fiberglassed, modified RG-15 foil with 1/8 spruce spars top & bottom and a balsa trailing egde (encased in the glass). Started this morning by printing and cutting the templates and I'm about to glass it up after maybe 3 hrs work. I dont know if this is already out there, and certainly it may not fit in this thread, but I'll go for it anyway... when applying the glass to the core but before epoxy is applied, I spray the core lightly w/ 3M 77 to make it tacky. The glass cloth then will stick to the core and you can position it/smooth it out before epoxying. Seems to work very well.

The 'new' ship will be similar in shape and dimension to a Q-500. Drive is a 16-Turn car motor and (so far) 8X4 slim prop.

Sorry Flea, you'll have to wait your turn http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

tata

[Far4nugn]

Jim, the SR X250 uses the aileron servo horn arrangement you spoke of earlier. Seems to work well. Just make sure you have the differential in the correct direction (more up than down). Also be sure the linkages dont bind on the horn screw or anything else.

Scott

[Dr. Jet]

Jim,
I used a slightly different elevator arrangement than is in the kit. I use a 1/8" sq. balsa pushrod with 0.040 music wire at both ends. At the servo, I use a "Zee" bend, then a "Vee bend for adjustment. This wire is thread wrapped to the pushrod and CA'd. The elevator end just has a 90 degree bend and a 0.025 keeper wire soldered in front of the bend to act as a keeper. I can fit a 4-40 nylon screw up through the bottom of the fuse for a removable stab, and still get the pushrod to get around the screw.

I suspected you would have to trim the nose back to fit the 010. You may want to build the stock fuselage, sand it out, then cut the nose off to fit the bigger motor, and glue the 1/16 mount to the resulting flat surface.

[Far4nugn]

Well, I've got the Flea back on the operating table, and its progressing rapidly. Spent about 4 hours on it tonight. Fuselage almost done, sans bolt plate and velcro for batt. Feathers donned, elev hinged. It was tough to work out the plates on either side of the vert stab. Maybe I didnt read corretly (17 times?) or just didnt 'see it', but I ended up spending a good 40 minutes shaping 2 pieces of balsa. The aft end of the top stringer in the Tdeck is 1/8 and the vert stab is 3/32(?). If you butt the two fill pieces up to the sides of the stringer, you have a significant gap (no support for the stab). So I modified it a bit and made the stab-fuse joint stronger in the process.

Wow, I covered the fuse with this new Ultracoat carbon-fiber-look black/dark gray 'woven' pattern stuff. First time using Ultracoat, and I'd pay an extra $2 or whatever again, if not just for the paper backing!. This stuff is thinner, probably lighter too, than monokote trans colors. Kind of strange, as its more crinkly than monokote. Sounds brittle, but its not. ? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif Anyhow, it looks great! Covered the feathers in trans red mono, and plan to do the wing the same with carbon-look ailerons. Pictures soon.

Power systems I've been considering are:
S300 with 5X2 or 4.7X2.5 and 6 cells
Mega Mig280 with same props and 6 or 7 cells
S280BB with ? cells
Comments please!

This plane is turning out light!!! I think I'll be able to stick a 7 cell 600ae pack in there and still be under 11 Oz. With a 5 or 6 cell, I'll be around 10.

I had planned on using these 650mAh NiMh packs I made from cordless phone batt packs, but not sure they can supply the current I'll need. They are the same size as 270 NiCds.

Well, I'm all Flea'd out.
Bedtime.

[Andy W]

Aileron control rods almost installed - what a fiddly job that is!
It would have been far better to shape the rods, THEN cut the slots in the TE of the wing and drill the holes into the ailerons. Now I have the slots and holes made, I'm having a heck of a job bending the horns to the exact length required..
..a

[Far4nugn]

Andy,
that job took me a good hour or more, including installation. They came out just right with the exception that I ended up having to bore 1/4 or so holes in the center section of the TE for the 'down legs' of the linkage (slight misalignment). I agree, should have cut the holes _after_ bending the rods. Anyhow, all done now and works like a champ.

I plan on cutting a small 'groove' on the wing hold down screw about 1/16" below where it exits the bottom of the wing TE. This will hold an E-clip which in turn will captivate the screw in the wing, assuring that I dont drop the screw in the canopy when installing the wing.

Well, I covered the wing yesterday. What a nightmare. Not any problem with the Flea, just my lack of expertise in civering. Made the amateur mistake of leaving the backing on the monokote and covered the bottom half that way, then made a big mess peeling it off. Amazing how well the side with no adhesive sticks when you really crank the iron up! :O Anyhow, it came out poorly, and I plan on redoing the covering at some point.

Went ahead and ordered 2 HS-55's, S300 and 4.75X2.4 CAM folder. The spinner supplied with this prop is EXACTLY the right size to mate w/ the nose of Der Flea (26mm). Hope the extra .4" of pitch is not a problem. Also registered Motocalc today, so I'll check it out.


Had a nutty(?) idea earlier. I'd like to stick a S400 in there eventually. Rather than cutting the nose shorter, thus increasing its size enough to fit the motor, maybe I could pull an 'Airacobra' setup with a short driveshaft and the S400 about 3" back from the nose. Should help balance with the heavier motor too. (No, I havent been smoking anything!) Ideas?

Radio gear still at Hitec. Expect first flight next (not this) w/e.

good day

[Dr. Jet]

Far4,
Instead of putting a groove in the screw, simply slip a 1/8" ID "O" ring over the screw. Works for me!

[Andy W]

Glad I'm not the only one who had problems with those linkages!

Originally posted by Far4nugn:
I'd like to stick a S400 in there eventually.

We will be starting out with 280BB's, size of a 300 but the power of a 400.. on that 4.7x2.4 folder (glad to hear the spinner is a nice fit!), it will probably cruise on half throttle on 6x600AE for 10 minutes or so!
Now the messy part is almost over, I feel like I'm making progress again..
..a

[Far4nugn]

Andy, glad to hear its underway again. I have so many projects that go full speed up to a difficult task then are put on hold for a long long time. Anyways, I considered the 280BB as well, but I'm not sure you can get enough power out of it. Gerald said 11A would fry the motor after a few seconds(actual test). Tell me how it goes.

I stuck a 400 inside the nose today and realised that I wouldnt have to cut off nearly as much as I originally expected. The end of the 400 shaft comes up to about 1/4" behind the S300 mount plate when you drop the motor in. I think I'd cut off 1/2" or so then 'hog' it out a hair inside with a dremel sanding drum till I get the proper fit. Maybe a new 1/16" ply 'firewall' to screw to. Thinking 6 cells on a 4.8V and 4.75X4.75 prop.

Thinking of leaving a 1/8 or so gap between the rear of the canpoy and the front of the T-deck. Should provide a vacuum to draw air through the motor. Would require some sort of passage from bottom of wing to top of wing at the TE though. Just a thought.

I will fly her on S300 first. Maybe try a 280BB if things work out for you. Then when I get comfy w/ flying her, go up to the S400.

Keep us posted!

[dave morris]

just thought I would jump in, My rebuilt flea is powered by a 6t 020 BL astro, 6 cells and a 4.7X4.7 apc. crashed the first kit built flea on the first flight using the speed 300 (rev ail damn comp radio) rebuilt and sheeted wing with 1/32 balsa. I did not like trying to cover the open structure as I kept warping and having to twist/heat/twist. the fully sheeted wing barely weighs any more than the open structure. anyway using the astro it really moves, super quiet, 7 min flights (rarely above 1/2 power). I am thinking about resurrecting flea 1, covering it with tissue, and using an 010 asto and one of the new JETI BL controllers, and 7 or 8 sanyo 720 nimh.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Far4nugn:
...Anyways, I considered the 280BB as well, but I'm not sure you can get enough power out of it. Gerald said 11A would fry the motor after a few seconds(actual test). ...
.

Actually I said that the 300 would fry at 11 amps. The brushes glow red hot in about 10 seconds.

The 280BB has a lower rpm/v constant than the 300 though, and for some reason Motocalc thinks way less efficient than a 300. But I think it will handle being pushed a lot harder than a 300 because the 280BB's external brush holder and replaceable brushes are more rugged and get better cooling.

[Far4nugn]

Oops, sorry to misquote, Gerald.

I've been doing some calculations with Motocalc (finally registered!) with some neat results. Still wading through the data at this point. It would be great to stick a gearbox on the 300 or the 280BB with a high pitch prop.

Servos, S300 and prop should be here tomorrow. At least I'll have something to fondle while my radio is being tuned up. (c'mon c'mon)

[Jim Miller]

Far4

Pic looks good. Did you weigh before/after Monokote? I ask because I'm torn between doing MonoK which I know vs Micafilm which is tougher and lighter but I've never done before. I could Monokote my flea in a morning but I suspect it will take a couple of days to get the hang of Micafilm.

Did you do the number backing tape skid plate suggested by Dr. Jet?

jtm (just gluing in the fuse formers this afternoon, hope to fit the 010 tomorrow)

[Far4nugn]

Jim, total airframe weight before covering wing (but after fuse and tail done and covered) was 2.5 Oz. I'll go weigh it now... 3.125 Oz (after adding wing covering, aileron setup, canopy and hold-down screw and O-ring (thanks Dr. Jet). I've been thinking about stripping it off and sheeting as Dave Morris mentions above... Monokote seems a little heavy for the light, open framework. Also, seems it could use the torsional rigidity if I plan on using a 400 in it later. Its still a bit flexy. Then again, its only gonna weigh 11 Oz.

I'll post the AUW after I get my HS-55's/motor/prop/batt/Rx/ESC in there.

I have a tiny planetary gearbox that is from a gearmotor setup out of one of the instruments I repair at work... The gearbox is about the size of a 50mAh NiCd cell and is mounted to a motor about the size of a 500mAh NiCd cell. Its a 2-stage box with a pinion in the center driven by the 3 'planets' (which are driven by motor pinion), then to a flatted output shaft of roughly 5/32" dia and 3/8" length. I plan on removing the upper assembly and making it a single-stage planetary, possibly of 4:1 ratio (not tested). Not sure if it can handle 70W or so, but will test it.
Could swing a 7X7 prop...

Junkyard wars is on TLC, gotta go!

[Far4nugn]

Hey guys, thought you may like a pic. First time trying this, so bear with me.

http://home.earthlink.net/~far4nugn/_uimages/Picture5.jpg

[dave morris]

forget all that brush nonsense, check my post in open discussion regarding the 12t 010 astro on the Jeti 18 brushless I think it would be perfect on a Flea (my plan anyway).

[Far4nugn]

Hey y'all, just checking in here. Called Hitec today and my systems are on the way back home (repaired at no charge). Looks like the Flea could have some air under it this weekend, but only if I recieve my gear back by Friday.

Got the HS-55 elev servo installed and linked up. Ended up using .035 wire. If I have balance probs, I can always change it to something lighter (or heavier). Aileron servo not quite installed, but got the materials today to finish (1/16" heat shrink tubing for horn-pushrod link).

Only batt I have around which is small enough is a 7-cell 600ae.... I could reconfigure it for 6 cells, but I'm tempted to use 7. I think it will fit.

Looks like the S300 shaft is too short(?) The rear of the 'prop adapter' and spinner are on the same plane, and the motor shaft only protrudes by 1/8 or so from the nose, not enough to grab onto the prop adapter.....? BTW, its a 4.7X2.4 CAM folder (and gee is it cute http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif)

[Kevin Murray]

Some of the earler posts noted they were shortening the Fleas nose if not useing a Speed 280. Allowing more of the motors shaft to stick thru the motor mount, and allowing the motor to pull up to the mount without interfering with the fuse. sides.

[Far4nugn]

I think I'll just remove one or both ply nose rings, or more likely, just sand them down till it works. I think it was designed to accomodate a standard prop adapter rather than a folder w/ incorperated spinner.

Hope the spinner still fits as nicely after I do the work.

[Far4nugn]

I ended up just slicing one of the rings off w/ a single-edge razoe, and it came right off clean!

Well, today is the moment of truth. I've got my r/c gear back from Hitec (argh...check my post in 'Ask Mike...' in Open disc.) and I plan on flying today, granted that I get a good range check at the field. I think the ailerons are set up with too much throw (wish my Flash4X was working!), but I'm going to wing it anyway.

w/ 6-cellx600ae pack, 2HS-55's, S300 AUW is 11 3/8 Oz's.

I'll post flight report later.

[Far4nugn]

Wow! Maiden flight was an astounding success! This little guy can really move. climb was about 35-40 degrees, and handling was smooth, predicable and very enjoyable. Didnt even get nervous. Very little trim change was req'd and it really flies right off your hand, even with 4.7X2.4 prop.

Flight time was exactly 4 minutes from launch to land with probably an average of 70% throttle. When you chop the throttle, and the prop folds, it just sails along. It will really carve a turn, and hold energy well for a 11Oz ship! Not hard to land though. Actually, I GREASED her in on the first try.

Roll rate may be a bit slower than I'm used to, even with about 30% more throw than recommended in the maunal, but its actually quite perfect. Without a doubt, my best flying ship to date(it is #11)!

Only have one batt for this girl, so I need to put another together today. I have an older 8X500 (Zagi pack) that I"ll take the knife to and make it 6 cells. I'd really like to see what she'll do with 7 cells. Actually tested last night w/ 7 and it sounded great, but I dont have any performance figures yet. Problem is, its a really tight fit already with a 6cell, dont know if I could even fit 7....maybe the 500 pack with one sideways on the end would fit, hmmm.....

Gotta run. Flea is highly recommended by me.

[Far4nugn]

About 6 flights now, and I still love it. I havent even scratched the covering on the bottom of the fuse! Most flights seem to be about 5 minutes, but I had one timed at 9 minutes of climb and glide w/ a good deal of thermal activity in the area (but I didnt actually thermal it). I love getting up about 50', shutting motor off, dive at about 30 degrees and pull an immelman right off the deck (eye level). It will make a nice big (35-40') loop and I still have enough speed to roll it back to level before starting the motor again.

I havent made the fairing behind the wing LE over the fuse yet. May get a bit cleaner still after I install it.

I'm very impressed with the Flea.