new depron F16 pusher prop

[Stefan lamers]

This is my new depron F16. The model is based on my previous F16 but it is about 10% smaller because the other one lacked weight to power ratio with my current motor/battery set-up so it had to be lighter.
Span 50 cm
lenght 70 cm
weight 420 gram
motor PJS550, 3S1P 1200 Mah lipo, 9X4,7 propellor
This set-up really is for a 3D type of plane but i wanted to use this. It flies very nice but i guess one always wants more power, or better to say more speed.
It has two servos for mixed taileron controls. control authority is not a problem. i had to decrease aileron throws after the first few flights and you can pitch the nose high up to slow down.
here are some construction pics and the final model. The paintscheme is a modified USAF agressor Flanker scheme.

[Spadinator]

Holy Cow!!! are you going to do plans for it????? :)

[RCParkflyer]

That is one sweet looking Plane!! Yes Plans Please!!

[Frounz]

Waouuuuh.... really nice job ! Nice structure... congratulations.
please, plans plans plans... ;)

Frounz

[Ben_E]

Beautiful -this one as well!!!

Just a short question - How did you make the sidewinder rockets?

and- plans maybe??

Ben_E

[Stefan lamers]

Hi
thanks very much for the appreciation. And yes this time i made plans for it. give me a few days to sort the plans and the instructions out.
The sidewinder bodies are made from two old pens, freebees from my aunts gospelchoir, and the fins are balsa painted with humbrol paint. they weigh 4 grams each.

[Donodo]

Absolutely beautiful!!!! I'm not one to like pusher planes but your F-16 is fantastic. My hat is off to you. :)

[electroboy]

Beautiful -this one as well!!!

Just a short question - How did you make the sidewinder rockets?

Ben_E
Don't mean to interrupt but I got excited about this one.
I was looking to make wingtip missiles for my FS F-16 cuz the ones supplied with the kit are lousy.
I am using large bore :eek: drinking straws. I get 'em with my freezee drinks at the conv. store. NOT the thin-long ones but the stocky thick ones with the spoon-type appendage at the end.
Freezee drinks...you know, the frozen, slushy coke and cherry stuff.
Anyway they're about 1/4-5/16" in dia., liteweight, and easy to paint.
Just spin a piece of dowel for a nose cone and..Eureka!

anyway, pardon the interruption, Iwas just excited about my discovery :D

[Thomas Nelson]

She's a beaut ... major Kudos Stephan! I have that same color scheme pegged for my own Viper.

Naturally you HAVE to show us some video of your creation!! And you realize that you are now going to face all kinds of harrassment for plans - including from me!

Good Job!

[Esprit440]

Wow Stefan the new model looks great! You must be very happy with this one.

Any more pics, or video?

-Matt

[jetset44]

Gorgeous model, Stefan! Great work. The bar for scale-looking Depron jets has just been raised! :D

Steve

[MJH]

Yep, it has.
Great plane!
Any video?

[Brauer]

Thank you God for bringing us F16 plans
Hope they're possible to convert to 50mm fans

A low flyby might be fun
But nothing in the world is greater than a supersonic run

Give us brushless power right away, then Lipo's and the very best prop
Then you'll see than noting in the world could make this F16 stop

:D

[Mr. Boogie]

Stefan,

Your F16 looks fantastic. Looks like you're using a mix of depron, is it 5mm and 3mm by any chance?

Looking forward to seeing some flight action.

Mr. Boogie

[Tomcat Fan]

Plans!!!!!!! :eek:
Please, I beg of you.......
Necesito plans por favor......

Could this fly on a 400 or 480?

[RJB]

Please add me to the grow list of modelers that would like a set of plans! What a great looking jet!

[i12flyrc]

:cool: In a word AWESOME!!!! Plans, plans, plans, plans, you get the idea. Keep up the good work! Can't wait to build one. I'm getting more depron as we speak. Also thinking of a brushless edf 55???

[Iswald]

That is a terrific looking F16!!!!Totaly awsome!!
I really just started (trying) to read most threads but this F16
is unreal!!really U ROCK!!!

[Ralph A. D'Amelio]

Stefan,

Excellent job, great craftmanship.

Ralph

[EarlC]

Beautiful, I just got 10 sheets of Depron and they're looking for a home .... Plans Please.

[pacro]

WOW Stefan you've outdone yourself PLANS PLEASE

[Stefan lamers]

Gee, i don't know what to say. thanks again for all the reactions.
I will try to shoot some video, i only have a photo camera with film so i don't know how it will turn out.
At the moment this design is not suitable for EDF conversion. there are just to many bulkheads and wingspars through the fuse to make a internal flow possible.
I have no expirience with other types of electric motors (the one i have is sofar my only one). The brushless motor/prop is 60 gram and the 1200 lipo is 75 gram, AUW is 420 gram. The motor gives +- 450 gram (9 amps) of thrust so anything equal or stronger will work well. One thing tough, you have to get the CofG right or it will be unflyable (i found out the hard way). A heavy battery and light motor is OK, but with a heavy motor and a light battery it is hard to get it right without adding lead.
It's made from 3 and 6mm depron. 6 for the bulkheads and wings and 3 for the sheeting. canopy made from a waterbottle using a heatgun. Balsawood leading edges and epoxy glassed strip on the bottom for damage protection.
Equipment bay is not large, it's 18cm long by 4 cm wide by 4 cm high, just big enough for a kokam 1200 lipo.

[GregG]

Wow she looks great! :D

How do you make the indented panel lines look so nice?

[Thomas Nelson]

...
At the moment this design is not suitable for EDF conversion. there are just to many bulkheads and wingspars through the fuse to make a internal flow possible.....


You've got me fired up, Stefan! I have a fanfold EDF solution coming. Here's the prototype, which uses monocoque construction - lots of room for a big, honkin' Minifan. I'll start a thread after I've got the maiden out of the way.

I just wish I could combine your method (for scale fidelity) with monocoque construction. At best, all I can hope for is an approximation of the curves of the real Viper.

Keep the good stuff coming Stefan! Looking forward to seeing more!

[Stefan lamers]

Hi thomas
That ducting looks really nice.Is it fiberglass? i was afraid that the F16 intake size would be too small for an EDF to work, but this looks good.
in a few days i will have my instructions finished, maybe you can use any of that in your model.
greets
stefan

[Stefan lamers]

hi
panel lines are made with a table knife. For straight lines i use a ruler and for curved lines or on the round fuselage i have thin masking tape (ofcourse before painting) and i just follow the edge of the tape with the dull side of the table knife without putting a lot of pressure and you draw the line.

[Thomas Nelson]

Yeah - the scale F-16 intake is "small-ish", and my (fiberglass) ducting IS a little "big-ish". As this is my first EDF, and I wanted a hand launch capable model, I decided to err on the side of thrust - I'm well over 100% FSW. The ducting is also designed around concealing retractable gear - another first for me. We'll see 'bout that. Dave Moris' Microbandit was the influence there.

I'm really looking forward to pouring over your plans/instructions! I will soon be at the point where I need to nail down the CG. Since both our planes are scale in outline, I'll start with the location you've found. It's so great that you're sharing your efforts!

I'm curious - have you found that your bird pitches up during slow flight?

Tom


Hi thomas
That ducting looks really nice.Is it fiberglass? i was afraid that the F16 intake size would be too small for an EDF to work, but this looks good.
in a few days i will have my instructions finished, maybe you can use any of that in your model.
greets
stefan

[Ronald Dobbs]

Alright, Chock one up to the Netherlands coming out with the big gun F-16. That is absolutely amazing. Stefan, If you can build that....This could also be one that is feasible...I know you can do this (if you kit them, people will buy them) that is a Field of Dreams rip off.

[Ronald Dobbs]

Just wanna see if you get excited about this

[Stefan lamers]

Hi
I have flown now about ten flights so i'm still discovering how it flies. I guess that as soon as you power down for slow flight you start adding up elevator not to loose altitude, as soon as the nose starts to come up the airflow under the nose pushes the nose up. I guess this is inherent to all jet designs with their long noses, but to me not really a problem because it does really slow down like that.
What i would like though is more power. I read you're using 4S packs. do you still use the BEC circuit or do you need a separate receiver battery?
stefan

[Stefan lamers]

Hi
This is definetely a plane with beautifull lines, i wish i had time to build it. maybe later.
i have seen a very nice SR71 here on the e-zone tough, he also scratchbuilt it.
greetings
stefan

[Stefan lamers]

I have flown again and we made some video. Is there any place i can post that without having the 100 kb limit? Otherwise the quality of the pictures get so bad.
stefan

[Thomas Nelson]

Hi Stefan - ezone will host it for you! 10mb is the limit when you post pictures or video to the Gallery. Looking forward to seeing it!

FWIW, the Flanker is the only jet design I've flown, and the only pitch up problem I've ever had was when I let the CG get too far back. Otherwise, there is no such behavior. But I've read posts where this seemd to be common to the F-16 airframe.

Yes - I use 4S1P 2100mah Thunderpower cells with my 16/15/5 Mega motor and a Castle Creations Pheonix 45 ESC with BEC enabled. I have some 80+ flights on this combo with two HS-55 servos, and another 10 flights with 3 servos. It definitely exceeds CC's specifications ... when I e-mailed them they said I "should" be ok on 2 small servos, but 'no promises'. Being able to sustain vertical is a drug ... you'll love it!

[Trbdsl96]

I have flown a couple profile jets that had this problem. My F-16 however does not. I have to hold in up elevator to keep the nose up at high alpha. (Thats the way I like it!)

[Thomas Nelson]

Thanks trbdsl96! Any chance you could be coaxed into showing where your CG ended up? I really want to nail it down so I can reinforce the ducting where the landing gear will be affixed.

TIA!

[Trbdsl96]

Sure thing Thomas. The two dark lines in this picture are the C.G. I use. I thought about landing gear on this model. I think the prop is a little too large though. :rolleyes: It certainly has the power available.

I hope this helps.

[Stefan lamers]

This is the video we made last time, it was made with a photocamera so it was pretty hard to follow the airplane. It was a little bit windy, but that worked OK
http://rcgroups.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=11826&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

[Trbdsl96]

Not bad at all!! That was a beautiful landing! My model ended up on its back twice today! :D No damage however. Just bruised pilot confidence! I love the way your paint job came out, thats awesome.

On the subject of that pitch up problem. Did you know the F-16 (along with many of today's fighters) was designed to be instable! Every real F-16 pilot out there has a flight control computer analyzing and modifiing his inputs several times a second! Thats got to say something positive about anyone that builds and flies a scale modern fighter! ;)

[Stefan lamers]

I made the instructions in a word file , but it became too large to post in one go, so after loading i guess it's easier to put everything in one file again for easier reading.
stefan

[Stefan lamers]

instructions continued

[Stefan lamers]

The drawings are hand drawn. I cut the paper into A4 sized pieces and scanned after. There is a number/letter on each page. A number for the rows and a letter for the column (row 1A, 1B, 1C etc column 1, 2A, 3A etc.) to make it easier to puzzle them together after printing. I made some test prints and the scanned items were the same as the originals.

[Stefan lamers]

same story as for the assembly drawing.
If there are any questions i'm happy to answer them here on the E-zone so everybody can see them.
Greetings
stefan

[Esprit440]

Stefan, thanks for the plans! It looks like you spent some time preparing them - much appreciated.

-Matt

[Mr. Boogie]

Stefan,

I just read through your plans and templates. They look very nice and the instructions are very comprehensive and seem well thought out.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to put together and release your F16 plans. I look forward to building your design.

Mr. Boogie

[Spadinator]

Awesome!!!! Thanks for the plans.....it looks like I'm buying some foam board tonite!!! :)

[Ralph A. D'Amelio]

Good man, Stefan

Ralph

[Ben_E]

Stefan!
Thanks for sharing your plans, and not to say all the effort and time you have used to make it available to us all.
I would also like to give you credit for taking depron building to a higher level - I'm really impressed with the different techniques you are using on the F-16!

Again thanks - Maybe someone will volunteer to transfer the plans to cad?

The list of winter projects is rapidly growing ;)

Ben_E

[Thomas Nelson]

Hey Stefan!

I finally spent some time previewing all your instructions and drawings. In a word, "awesome"! Very thorough. I hope we see some pusher F-16's materialize over the next few months.

Thanks for taking the time to document and share your project. Attention to detail, like the scale intake complete with splitter, and your instructions on canopy molding make this stand out ... a definite keeper!

Sincerely

Tom

[Spadinator]

Hi Guys......I have just printed the plans for the second time and am frustrated :( I don't know if it is my printer or not but the tiled drawings are off by a half inch in some and as much a 3 inches in another!!! Has any one else printed and cut these out? Just to check if it is a problem on my end!!! :) thanks

[Thomas Nelson]

I'm not sure as I have not printed Stefan's plans. But I HAVE noticed that Adobe will occasionally set a scaling factor to something other than 100%. Could this be your problem?

[Spadinator]

Hmm......Im not sure as the scaling seems to differ from page to page. I think it is the printer but I'm not sure because the F-15 plan printed perfectly so I don't know. I have set the scaling to 100% for all printing in the past.

[Stefan lamers]

Hi guys
i'm sorry to hear that printing is a bit of a problem. can you tell me which tiles don't print accurate. i then can try it from this side, see if something went wrong with scanning.
greetings
stefan

[Stefan lamers]

Hi spadinator
I downloaded and printed assembly drawingColumnAB and printed them. Maybe a setting you can change is the paper size. It was scanned on an A4 sized scanner.
i have just tried to print the image on "letter size" paper with the A4 paper selected in the printer menu. this works fine. the picture is not so close near the edge as when i tried to print on "letter size" with "letter size" selected in the printer menu (as you would probably have because that's the normal size you use).
if you have any automatic selection on your printer, you want to switch everything off, (fit to page, automatic margins or anything like that).
All the pages i printed matched the original. I hope this helps.
greetings
stefan

[Spadinator]

OK...I'll try that!! I am also going to try a different printer, but I will try your suggestion as well. I want to build an F-16 because it was my primary aircraft in the USAF and I live near Hill AFB where your can't turn your head with out seeing one in the air!!! :)

[Spadinator]

Hey Stefan I reprinted the templates and they worked out ok...except for the cockpit sheeting on 3a,3b. they do not match up. Everything else does!!! :) Thanks for the suggestion!!

[Stefan lamers]

Great that it worked. i'll be looking forward to see your F16.
greetings
stefan

[airmcn_3]

Just wanna see if you get excited about this

there are already plenty of them out there. I have plans for a 70in fuse length. if interested (perfect 3 view with bulkheads) BTW I like the f-16 alot!

[Spadinator]

Im a cuttin paper as I type :) Gotta maiden my F-15 park jet first!!!

[DCobra]

Has anyone else built Stefan's BEAUTIFUL F-16 yet? Please share your experiences if you have, I am considering building one of these while Thomas Nelson sorts out the build on his awesome EDF F-16. Man I wish I had the design skills and creativity needed to design one of these myself, but also very grateful that others with the creativity are willing to freely share.
Lets see some posts if anyone has built a "Stefan Lamers" F-16?

[Hawker]

Stefan,

That is just beautiful! Your F-16 looks so good like it came from a kit. Great job! :D

[DCobra]

Well, it looks like I'm decided on building this. After looking over the building instructions and printing the templates, I think I have the skills needed to finish it. Probably not as well as Stefan, but I will give it a try :D
I would still like to see more of these built, so we can all learn from each others different perspectives and ideas. Mine will be setup as a pusher as I have no EDF experience and would rather learn EDF's on an ARTF.....someday. Scratch-built pusher projects keep delaying that :p
I don't have the electronics on hand to get this plane in the air, so this won't be a two or three day build. We'll see...I may decide to rob my brushless system from my X-29 if I can figure a way to make it easy to switch back and forth between planes.

Ok, wish me luck, I'm going to need it! I'm sure I will have alot of questions along the way!

[DCobra]

The parts template and assembly drawing are printed and taped together. I did have some scaling problems with the prinouts, seemed like a page here and there was differently sized than the adjoining page, but not so bad that I couldn't be a bit creative and correct things with a pen and straightedge.
Parts cutting will be done today. and possibly start gluing.

[bipeflyer]

It's very decent of you to share these drawings with everyone Stefan,and it looks so scale, thankyou so much! :)

Matt.

[DCobra]

The parts are all cut out and I'll be starting assembly today. Build will be done with 5mm sturdyboard, so I will most likely have to make adjustments where the 3mm depron was used for skinning etc. I don't have any access to 3mm foam at the current time, so I may switch to balsa for skinning if the sturdyboard isn't working.

@ Stefan - I see from the assembly instructions that you went with 2 layers of depron for the wing and tailerons, do you think a single layer of each would be adequate to save weight?

Also for power systems, I have 3 choices. I can use a brushed GWS 350C with gearbox, a direct drive brushed 380 or 400, or as a last resort take my Himax 2015-4100 from my X-29. Battery power is looking like it will be 3s Apogee 1570 (3.8oz)
I think for me, a direct drive brushed setup may be the best way to go for now as long as I can come up with something that my Apogee pack will work with. I will have to research some DD options and see if that makes any sense, because I don't want to use a gearbox and ruin the scale looks at the rear of the plane.

[DCobra]

My build is progressing sloooowly. Here are some shots of my progress. Some problems I have run into at this point are former 2B had to be made from scratch. I'm not sure if it wasn't on the template drawing or what happened, but for a while I was trying to make 2E fit in it's place. Also, the (2) 3mm depron 100mm x 30mm pieces that would sit on the wing under former 2B were omitted to help fit my 5mm sturdyboard better. Also, I will probably omit the balsa LEX strips on the leading edge of the wing/strake. I redrew the wing leading edge 1 cm forward of the plans to add some additional surface area and will compensate by not using the balsa.

-Paul

[Stefan lamers]

Hi paul
I have just discovered that this site continued. Great to see somebody else build this F16. I made the wings out of two sheets so you wouldn't see the carbon spar, it also came out really strong, absolutely no bending or torsion.
The one thing with my motor was that it was the wrong type for the type of plane. I had an outrunner, lots of thrust but no RPM / pitchspeed. The profile in the wingsurface made it easy to fly around at that relative slow speed the motor was producing. Ofcourse now i bought another motor for my next airplane.
If you have any questions, please ask. i'll be following your progress!
Greetings
Stefan

[DCobra]

Stefan,
My progress is going slow, I am just starting to skin the top half. My plans to use 5mm sturdy board were changed because I didn't think it would fit well enough without alot of sanding to match uneven surfaces.

I had to look around alot for some depron that would work for the skinning.
Don't laugh, but I finally decided to go to a local meat packer and buy some new meat trays and cut them for sheets of foam. They also ended up being 5mm but I sanded them to approximately 3 mm thick and they are much better quality foam than the sturdyboard. So far, it is working well using UHU Creativ glue applied to former and skin.

I am also trying to take my time and make sure everything goes together well so I don't discover any mistakes later. One thing I noticed is that two parts formers 3C were missing from the parts templates. I was able to fabricate them from the cross section picture B-B on the assmebly drawing. Also 2B former was missing and fabricated. If anyone else decides to build this, they can make the parts by tracing it from the assembly drawing. I am actually surprised that noone else is building this, it's the best looking F-16 I have seen posted and free also. After this one is built, I might enlarge the plans for a 30 inch wingspan and build another.

Thank you Stefan for sharing these awesome plans, I will post more of the build with pictures soon.

-Paul

[Stefan lamers]

Hi paul
Modelbuilding is all about creativity in using different kind of materials, so why not?
I have actually been thinking of enlarging it myself. At the moment the space in the cockpit is rather small for all the equipment. I would maybe enlarge it to a Mega16/15/4 size . The airframe itself wouldn't be much heavier because the depron doesn't weigh anything, so the wingloading would even go down.
I can not check at the moment why those formers were not on the template drawing but luckily you could use the assembly drawing.
Greetings
stefan

[Spadinator]

Hi Stefan....I am about ready to skin my Falcon as well. My budget only allows for a brushed motor...any recomendations?

[Cuddles]

DCobra
Why don't you use some depron from MacD####d?
Those pancake trays are maybe large enought for sheeting and ,if my memory doesn't trick me,they are 2mm thick.
just my two cents

[DCobra]

DCobra
Why don't you use some depron from MacD####d?
Those pancake trays are maybe large enought for sheeting and ,if my memory doesn't trick me,they are 2mm thick.
just my two cents

@Cuddles,

Aha! I never thought of that, thats a great idea! But that would mean having to eat the breakfast... :eek:
I will definitely try that with the next build.

@Spadinator,

Glad to see someone else joining me on building this! I'm still trying to decide on a brushed power system for mine as well, but I'm leaning towards the tried and true GWS motor/gearbox combo. I'd like to go direct drive and cut out the gearbox weight, but everything I've looked at so far is high amps, and I don't want to risk a lipo pack. I'm still considering a J250 motor with 3x3 prop or somewhere in there, but I don't know much about those. More research is needed.

[Spadinator]

DCCobra.....I was thinking along the lines of a Zagi type set up with 1200 mah li-Ion batteries. Weight would be a concern for me as the speed 400 is heavy!!! :0 I do have 2 johnson 250 motors and props doin nothing at all though!!! I may have to start collecting the foam lunch trays the caffeteria uses!!! :)

[DCobra]

Here are some pics showing the skinning so far and the motor mount I'll be using.

-Paul

[Thomas Nelson]

Hey Paul - looking excellent! I'm glad Stefan's bird is getting some more exposure. Very nice lines.

I've used an direct drive 6V S400 with 9 KAN 950's to good effect. While hard on the motor, this combo flew my first Flanker at 20 ounces. It would have been more jet-like, however, at (say) 15 ounces. I used the Gunther prop.

[DCobra]

Hey Paul - looking excellent! I'm glad Stefan's bird is getting some more exposure. Very nice lines.

I've used an direct drive 6V S400 with 9 KAN 950's to good effect. While hard on the motor, this combo flew my first Flanker at 20 ounces. It would have been more jet-like, however, at (say) 15 ounces. I used the Gunther prop.

TN,
Thanks for the encouragement. I've been watching this thread and wondering why noone else is bilding it after the trouble Stefan went through to provide the plans. Of course, alot of us are tied up on Jetset44's awesome builds too. For me, I had to have this F-16 from the second I saw it posted, but needed to get other projects finished first.

I'm also peeking in from time to time on your Viper EDF build and I've been hoping the weather up in Calgary improves so we can see more flight vids:)
I have a couple of S400's and 2 Gunther (110mm x 40 I think) props. Do you remeber what kind of amp draw you had with that setup? I have to stay under 15 if I use my 3s Apogee 1570 pack, and probably less than that if I go get a pack that will fit better. (2-3s Kokam or Etec 1200mah)
Any further suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

-Paul

[DCobra]

Stefan,

I'm trying to run some power setups through Motocalc but I need to know what the wing surface area is for this plane?

If anyone else knows how to calculate surface area, I can provide the measurements.
I tried to calculate it but I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly.
Here are the measurements:
span 19 7/8 inch
tip chord 3 1/8 inch
root chord 9 1/4 inch
This doesn't take into account the leading edge strakes.
Any help would be appreciated.

-Paul

[Stefan lamers]

Hi paul
This is how you can calculate the area.
This wing you have to brake up in two (or four for both sides) parts.
The blue section and the red section.
first get the span of one wing minus the fuse
(green D=5 inch) C=19,8-5/2=7,4 inch
then the root rib minus the tip(B) is A=9,25-3,12=6,13
So area is lenght X width. blue=7,4 X 3,12=23,1 inch2
red=6,13 X 7,4=45,4 divided by two (it's a triangle so, only half)=22,7 inch2

total for one wing is 22,7 + 23,1=45,8 times two is 91,6 inch2 for the aircraft.
see drawing for clearity

forgive me for not being able to calculate in inches.

One advise i can give you is to watch your C of G. My motor weighed 56 gram, my battery 75 gram and i could barely get the C of G enough fwd even with all the servo's and receiver in the front. If you put a heavier motor in make sure you also put a heavier battery in.

Greetings
stefan

[DCobra]

Wow, thank you very much Stefan. I guess this is why I am still building others designs, and not my own designs :D

I am learning alot, there are some very interesting techniques in this build that I have learned lessons from. I am at the point now of attaching the tailerons, and will be starting on the bottom half tomorrow. The instructions have been great so far, there are some assembly steps and parts that I have had to design or look close at the pictures but everything is going together great!

Thank you again for the formula and even a picture to describe it.

-Paul

[Thomas Nelson]

Hi Paul

Yep - I was right around the 10 amp mark on an old tractor application, and seem to recall about the same number for the pusher Flanker too. I remember playing with the motor timing on the pusher - don't forget you can 'heat things up' or 'cool things down' a little by playing with this variable. Again, this was a 6V S400, 3S 1200 Etec (old generation), and Gunther prop stuck on the "right" way for the pusher application.

The F-16 you saw in the vids is no more ... I sacrificed it to the template gods. So far, I have a perfect template for the duct and exhaust cone, a reasonably accurate template for the lower fuse, and poor quality template for the upper fuse. The whole process of getting 3D templates out of flat foam is (for me at least) an iterative one, involving several attempts before I'm satisfied. The thick fanfold I use easily accomodates the concave curves of the upper fuse because I can sand away the resulting wrinkles, but the thinner stuff (which I also have, and which is what most will be attempting to use for this) is less tolerable of of the concave bends. So I am still working out the bugs on the forming process as it relates to the type of foam used. And I still need to see how depron likes the process. Just too busy with other matters to make steady progress, I'm afraid.

OH - another thing you can do with a scale model like Stefan's, is look up the wing area of the Real Deal, and then scale down to your size. And don't forget that you're dealing with square units when you scale down!


TN,
...I'm also peeking in from time to time on your Viper EDF build and I've been hoping the weather up in Calgary improves so we can see more flight vids:)
I have a couple of S400's and 2 Gunther (110mm x 40 I think) props. Do you remeber what kind of amp draw you had with that setup? ... Any further suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

-Paul

[DCobra]

Hi Paul

Yep - I was right around the 10 amp mark on an old tractor application, and seem to recall about the same number for the pusher Flanker too. I remember playing with the motor timing on the pusher - don't forget you can 'heat things up' or 'cool things down' a little by playing with this variable. Again, this was a 6V S400, 3S 1200 Etec (old generation), and Gunther prop stuck on the "right" way for the pusher application.

The F-16 you saw in the vids is no more ... I sacrificed it to the template gods. So far, I have a perfect template for the duct and exhaust cone, a reasonably accurate template for the lower fuse, and poor quality template for the upper fuse. The whole process of getting 3D templates out of flat foam is (for me at least) an iterative one, involving several attempts before I'm satisfied. The thick fanfold I use easily accomodates the concave curves of the upper fuse because I can sand away the resulting wrinkles, but the thinner stuff (which I also have, and which is what most will be attempting to use for this) is less tolerable of of the concave bends. So I am still working out the bugs on the forming process as it relates to the type of foam used. And I still need to see how depron likes the process. Just too busy with other matters to make steady progress, I'm afraid.

OH - another thing you can do with a scale model like Stefan's, is look up the wing area of the Real Deal, and then scale down to your size. And don't forget that you're dealing with square units when you scale down!

Thomas,
May the template gods use the sacrifice of your Viper to bless the world with many Vipers. :D

Thanks a bunch for the rest of the info..I'm going to start out with a GWS power system, but I'm setting it up so I can cabletie a S400 to the motor mount and give the DD setup a try. I'm going to end up buying a Wattmeter before I go that route though...I'm new to the lipo's and don't wanna overdraw them. Power system as it stands right now will be GWS 350C, 5.33 gears, 8x6 prop and 2s 1050 Apogee's. Depending on final build weight, I may change to 3s and another combo.

-Paul

[CrashingDutchman]

Stefan,

Where did you buy the white Depron? I am in The Netherlands too, but have not been able to find it.

Some 'Parket' floor sellers have the grey/green version of it

Thanks,

CD

[Stefan lamers]

Hi CD
I have bought it at "friesland parket" in heerenveen, they sell 1 m2 of 6 mm and 3 mm.
For the 6 mm about 4 euro per sheet and 3 mm 2 euro.
greetings
stefan

[new flyer]

so do you have plans for this plan what motor are you using

[DCobra]

new flyer,

The plans are back on posts 39-42. I'll be using GWS 350C motor, 5.33 gears, and 8x6 prop. I'm still building, hopefully I'll be done and can fly her by Wednesday.

-Paul

[Cuddles]

Hi DCobra
Any update?
I plan to scale down plans to fit a cd-rom motor and 700mAh lipo but ,first i would like to see your setup inflight.
Regards, Francesco

[DCobra]

Hi DCobra
Any update?
I plan to scale down plans to fit a cd-rom motor and 700mAh lipo but ,first i would like to see your setup inflight.
Regards, Francesco

Francesco,

It's looking right now like I might not be flying this one for a few weeks. I'm moving from CA to NC this coming weekend and I might not finish the build before then. Before you scale the plans down, I would check the performance your expecting from the CD Rom motor to see if it will match the current scale. My plane is looking like it will be about 13-14 oz. right now with a GWS 350 motor/gearbox and 2s 1200 lipos, so scaling down may not be necessary. It could be built even lighter at the current size using a single sheet of depron for the wing and the tailerons.

Hope this info helps!
-Paul

[DCobra]

Finished build pics coming this week, and possibly a maiden...if all the planets and stars line up correctly and I get a lipo pack the right size in conjunction with good weather!

Otherwise, the build and painting are done, AUW is looking to be around 15-15.5 oz.
I probably shouldn't have painted her before the maiden but I couldn't help it...she just didn't look right with white and yellow multicolored meat-packing tray foam and white sturdyboard. The paint is a desert aggressor scheme. Give me a few days to post the pics and you'll get to see 'em. Hopefully, they will encourage more builds of Stefans design...this design produces an awesome looking Viper.

Paul

[new flyer]

hi everyone a couple questions. i have a ips gearbox with a feigao brushless inrunner when put in an ips c gearbox with an 11.47 apc prop it gets 11 ounces of thrust. would that be good for theis plane or is that not enough power or is it to big of a prop

[DCobra]

new flyer,
I don't know enough about the Feigao motors to really answer the question properly. The thrust figures sound good enough, but I'm not sure if a prop that large will produce enough pitch speed to keep the F-16 up there and performing well. My thinking is that you will want a smaller prop like an 8x6, 9x6 or 9x7 so you can get close to 50 mph pitch-speed. Not sure if thats possible on the Feigao's.

I'm going to be using 3s lipos, Himax 2015-4100, C gears, GWS 9x7 prop, and CC Phoenix 25 on mine, at 15-15.5 oz AUW and I'm not 100% convinced yet that my setup will move the plane fast enough to keep it airborne. It just seems to me that the wing area is too small to produce enough lift without being flown at high speeds. Of course, I have yet to maiden mine for various reasons and my doubts will probably vanish then.
I'll be sure to let you know as soon as I get a change to fly her, and maybe you can base a decision on that info? Hope this helps...

Paul

[new flyer]

not sure about that either but i am not really looking for good performance yet my system is very light with pico servos the feigao is very light i think like 30 grams with the gb and prop and the i have 3 cell 340 kokams so it is all lightweight stuff. i am just wanting somthing that will make it fly. i already buildt the plane but havn't put the electronics in it yet i may go to a different gear i think if i use the a gearing i can get lower thrust but higher pitch speed if i am reading the chart things right.

[new flyer]

how good would a ducted fan be the intake on the bottom would work well if i could hollow out the back and take out the farmost bulkhead thing then i could use an internal flow system and the feigao works very well in df's

[Stefan lamers]

Hi newflyer and Dcobra

Good to hear from you again. I can not really say anything about other powersystems because i have never used them.
My outrunner had a pitch speed of about 28 Mph and 17 ounce of thrust at 6700 rpm. This was not very fast, but i had no trouble flying it in a confined area.
the wing may be small but i think you get a lot of lift from the fuselage too.
If i would build it again i would use a different system with more pitchspeed to get more realistic flying charactaristics.
new flyer, if you use that light motor / gearbox and the 340 kokams you will get a very low AUW and that should help you (mine was 16 ounce with a motor of 55 gram and 1200 kokam of 75 gram, and 20 gram of paint)
Hope to hear from you guys soon.
stefan

[Hans-Joachim]

how good would a ducted fan be the intake on the bottom would work well if i could hollow out the back and take out the farmost bulkhead thing then i could use an internal flow system and the feigao works very well in df's


Hi new flyer,

I have made my own experiences and you should go with thrust/weight
nearly or better 1<>1 with a pusher prop.

If you go a minifan way, you draw more amps, have to use more bats
get more weight and flying isn´t easier.

Keep this birds light even with this small wing area and you will have fun!

Greetings
Hans-Joachim

[Stefan lamers]

Hi newflyer, i don't think this one is easy to convert to DF.You will loose a lot of structural rigidity if you cut away parts. You can always try ofcourse, if you read other threads her on the forum and for example the F16 from Thomas Nelson you might get some ideas how to make the ducting.
greetings
stefan

[Hans-Joachim]

Hi newflyer, i don't think this one is easy to convert to DF.You will loose a lot of structural rigidity if you cut away parts. You can always try ofcourse, if you read other threads her on the forum and for example the F16 from Thomas Nelson you might get some ideas how to make the ducting.
greetings
stefan


Hi Stefan,

I´ve noticed, he has allready completed his jet. What setup are you using now?

Greetings
Hans-Joachim

[new flyer]

her are a couple i found using the a gearing inn the gearbox instead of the c

prop voltage amps thrust runtime on the 340 mah pack
gws 8x6 11.1V 3.5A 9.70 oz 6 minutes
gws 9x4.7 11.1V 4.0A 11.50 oz 5 minutes
gws 9x5 11.1V 3.3A 11.20 oz 6 minutes


not sure about the pitch speed and no clue how to get it but i am sure one of you math wizards could help me out wich is best i have the a gear for the ips and i have those props

[Stefan lamers]

Hi hans-joachim. it is not flying at the moment (i have only one set of servo's and they are in another one), but i used a PJS 550 outrunner (500 gram thrust/ 45 km/hr speed at 6700 RPM 9X4,7 prop with 3s 1200 lipo. AUW 450 gram.
it handlaunched with no problem but it never really reached any speed with this outrunner, this motor is not for in a jet.
greetings
stefan

[new flyer]

all of my equipement together weighs 62.2 grams or 2.2 ounces + around 106 grams for the plane so far and it is at about 6 ounces once finiched it should be right at about 8-9 ounces ready to fly so if i put on the 8x6 it should fly right.

[Hans-Joachim]

Thank you Stefan,
Hi new flyer

I´ve tried thrust/weight <1/1 and >1/1 and I have to say speed isn´t all
for a parkflyer! Thrust is the real thing for a parkflyer in my opinion.
... shure, speed has to be jet like!

I mean, think of the scale size of the model,
let´s say > 600 mph for a jet flight and convert it to your model.

Greetings to the Netherlands
and happy flying
Hans-Joachim

[Stefan lamers]

Hi new flyer.
To get to know your pitch speed you have to know the RPM of the motor / prop (for you the prop as you are using a gearbox). This is all theory ofcourse because i am not taking the prop efficiency into account but it gives a good idea.
For example the 8X6 runs at 6000 RPM. each revolution the prop advances 6 inch.
in one minute 6000 x 6 = 36000 inch per minute is 30 MpH pitch speed.

the 9x4,7 for example might run at 6500 rpm because the lower pitch of the prop makes it easier. but the same calculation will give you 25 Mph.

Now you have to make a choice ( or try it and find out) what works best. The 8X6 has the highest pitch speed for best flying, but does it handlaunch with the lower thrust, or do you need the 9X4,7 for handlaunch and accept the lower speed?

greetings
stefan