Speck out Question

[KingOfTheHill]

just curious because some of you guys have/use altimiters...

does anyone know when a 1.5, 2, and 2.5 meter plane SPECK out?

im talking Naked eye here... any info would be GREAT!. thanks

JOe

[rcbrust]

I think you'll find if you ask 20 different people you'll get 20 different answers. I fly mostly hand launch (1.5m) and my hand launch buddy and I often fly in the 1000-1500 feet range, and this has been checked with altimeters.

I've seen guys on the forums who say there's no way you can see a 2m glider at 1000 feet, so go figure. I think it has to do with your eyes and how small of a dot you'll put up with. In fact, I think it's more of the latter.

It also has a lot to do with the type of sky you're flying under. What most people consider to be ideal conditions are actually the worst to fly at high altitude. We've had hand launch gliders at 2000 feet when we could keep the glider between us and a cloud. If the model leaves the cloud and goes into blue sky, poof, it's gone. Nice clear dark blue sky will gobble up a model in no time. :)

Randy

[KingOfTheHill]

wow, i never factored in the color of the sky at the time... but it does make perfect sense...

so you can take a 60" glider to 1000-1500'..... over in the DS forum we were talking about Punching out and someone was talking about punching out to 1000' and it seemed far fetch...but maybe... when i punch out with my 60", on a 120-140mph pass i can spec my 60" out.... wow, i wonder how high it really is going...

thanks for the reply... if anyone else can answer or put in their 2 cents that would be great too.

JOe

[evan]

Joe, I have a 2M that gets to 3500 ft on a good thermal day and it isn't specked out but only because the pilot is scared to go any higher. OTOH my 3M which has a Drela airfoil is scarier to fly at these altitudes since it "disappears" when it's flying away or towards me on certain angles. There is an abundance of lift once you get to altitude that if you dont pay attention your plane can climb at a phenomenal rate and by the time you recover, the pants are starting to get moist :) Randy is right about the color of the sky, what you want is contrast be it against the clouds or the blue sky itself and for this reason, i've got all my wing bottoms in black or very dark colors.

[Miami Mike]

You can estimate the distance to your plane by holding your radio up to your chin and comparing the plane's apparent wingspan to the ball on your antenna.

To be able to do this, you need to make some measurements and do some calculations ahead of time: Measure the diameter of the ball on top of your antenna. For example, the one on my JR radio measures 3/8 of an inch. Call that B. With your antenna extended, hold your radio up to your chin in a comfortable, natural, position and measure the distance from your eyes to the antenna ball. For me it's 40 inches. Call that A. Determine the approximate wingspans of your planes in the same units that you use to measure altitude. I'll use 1 meter (3.3 feet), 2 meters (6.6 feet), and 3 meters (9.8 feet). Call that W.If D is the distance to your plane when the wingspan fits the ball on your antenna, then A / B = D / W. In other words, the ratio of A to B is the same as the ratio of D to W, And D = W x A / B.

Since the method isn't really all that accurate, you can round off the figures. For my case, if a 2 meter plane's wingspan fits the ball on my antenna, it's 700 feet away. If it's half the size of my antenna ball, it's 1400 feet away. If it's 3/4 the size, it's 1000 feet away, and so on. A 3 meter plane fits my antenna ball at 1000 feet and a 1 meter plane fits at 350 feet.

Once you've memorized the ratios, it's pretty easy to do the calculations in your head.

[xtc]

Joe, I have a 2M that gets to 3500 ft on a good thermal day and it isn't specked out but only because the pilot is scared to go any higher. OTOH my 3M which has a Drela airfoil is scarier to fly at these altitudes since it "disappears" when it's flying away or towards me on certain angles. There is an abundance of lift once you get to altitude that if you dont pay attention your plane can climb at a phenomenal rate and by the time you recover, the pants are starting to get moist :) Randy is right about the color of the sky, what you want is contrast be it against the clouds or the blue sky itself and for this reason, i've got all my wing bottoms in black or very dark colors.

man,im having a real hard time swallowing this one 3500 ft??please describe how you do this,are you talking about asl?
xtc

[Robglover]

man,im having a real hard time swallowing this one 3500 ft??please describe how you do this,are you talking about asl?
xtc


You need to get out and play cross country with some experienced guys sometime. 3500 isn't that big a deal if you get a big plane in some big air. A good XC ship is pretty amazing in the right hands on the right day.

[aeajr]

I don't have an altimiter, so I can't say I have ever measured, but to say you can't see 2 meter plane at 1000 feet would tell me you have pretty bad eyes.

Our field is 800X1600, so this is my reference. I fly my 42 inch, roughly 1 meter wing span Aerobird out to the ends of the field all the time. This is a pod and boom plane with not a lot of fuselage and the wing is fairly thin.

If the wind is coming from the east or west, I stand at one end of the field with my 2M Spirit RES sailplane well past the end of the open part of the field, let's say 2000 feet out, which is well within the woods that surround the field.

I then have the plane very high in the sky where I am depending on the flashes off the wing reflectors to confirm orientaiton. I can see it but it can be hard to tell which way it is going at any given moment. I would GUESS I am at least 2500 feet away, direct line of sight, about 1/2 mile away from the plane and I can still fly it based on flashes off the wing reflectors to help me confirm orientation. If that is correct, that puts the plane about 1500 feet up. Nothing near accurate, but just my impression.

As an alternate consideration, my Hi-start is 550 feet long unstretched. When I launch with a bit of wind, the line is almost straight up so lets say I am coming of the line at 500 feet with a little zoom at the end. I can EASILY see the plane at twice that height.

Likewise I have had the plane almost directly overhead looking like an elongated dot in the sky. I can just barely make out the stripe under the left wing. I have to be at least 2000 feet.

Guys at our field with altimeter watches say they have put the watches in their 2 meter planes and clocked over 2200 feet without a problem flying the plane.

My 3M Legend can be flown at much greater distances.

All my wing bottoms are black, dark red or dark blue. They all look black from a distance. I have added 3 pieces of chrome monokote to the front of each wing so I get 3 flashes from each wing if the sun is to my side or behind me.

[rcbrust]

I've seen people state that there's no way you can see a 1.5m HLG at 1000-2000 feet. I remember the first time we hit 1700 feet, we weren't sure if the altimeter was correct or not. We thought that was hard to believe. So, we measured off 1700 feet and one of us stood at one end holding the plane up and the other stood at the other end and observed it. You could see it easily. So, when people say there's no way you can see that, I say, measure it off on the ground and see for yourself. :)

Randy

[evan]

Try one of the variometers/altimeters; or put a plane on a vertical orientation held up by another person, walk away and see your results as Randy has suggested. BTW Randy has developed a nice alti which wont break the bank :)

[xtc]

I've seen people state that there's no way you can see a 1.5m HLG at 1000-2000 feet. I remember the first time we hit 1700 feet, we weren't sure if the altimeter was correct or not. We thought that was hard to believe. So, we measured off 1700 feet and one of us stood at one end holding the plane up and the other stood at the other end and observed it. You could see it easily. So, when people say there's no way you can see that, I say, measure it off on the ground and see for yourself. :)

Randy

well,randy,i followed your advise and yep,it can be done ,i would never have thought that we go that high,i would have thought that my standard size was around 1500 or there abouts

xtc

[rcbrust]

The other thing we should mention is that different people have different ideas (and comfort levels) of what acceptable speck height is. I think that some pilots feel that speck height is when the glider's as small as it can get while still being able to see it fairly well. To me, a really good speck is when as the glider is turning in the thermal, it goes in and out of sight as the orientation changes. Granted, I don't like flying like that for long! :)

Randy

[Sparky Paul]

I've measured altitude and distance, and my personal limit with a 2M is 800'.
With a Kadet, a much larger image, I'll let it get a lot further away.
Specking out is scary, I don't care to do that to me.. :)

[schrederman]

A person's eyesight is more important here than you might imagine. Someone with 20/10 vision can see a model a lot farther away than mere mortals... like me... I know because I used to have 20/10 vision... alas... no more!

Jack Womack

[Radioguy]

Schreder:

I'm one of those "Ex-Eagle-eyed types" as well. Used to be better than 20/10 in my mid-20's and for my pilot medicals I could read the printer's name at the very, very bottom of the eye chart.

That was about 30 years ago and now I'm a glasses wearer. Gone are the days of 20/10 vision!

In "the good old days" I could fly really high and take a typical 10 ft span model and pop it up until the head of a dress pin held at full arm's length would cover the model by a factor of four times.

While that was quite gratifying, there were sure moments when getting it down was a super-big concern with no spoilers or flaps in strong lift. I only pulled the wings off two planes at high altitude, but that was more than enough. Surprising how well you can hear the "Snap" when the wing lets go despite the long distance.

Regards,
Lee Smith

[MTT]

....

[aeajr]

Schreder:
While that was quite gratifying, there were sure moments when getting it down was a super-big concern with no spoilers or flaps in strong lift. I only pulled the wings off two planes at high altitude, but that was more than enough. Surprising how well you can hear the "Snap" when the wing lets go despite the long distance.

Regards,
Lee Smith

Ouch!

When I got my Spirit RTF the spoilers were not enabled. On about my 5th flight I went up in a "brick lifter" of a thermal and one of the experts called for me to get out immediately. I started working on the spoilers the very next day!

Yes, having the plane out near the limit of vision is fun and exciting and a bit .... nervous. But I like to do it when I can.

[Ledbetter]

This thread is not theoretical for me. Last Sunday I lost my Easy Star (yes, I said Easy Star) to the skies. My vision is corrected to 20/20 with wrap-around prescription sunglasses.

My plane was about 300 yards away and 300 feet in the air when the wind changed. What was an off-shore breeze turned into a southern Santa Ana in the blink of an eye. The wind was now blowing at my back as I looked at my plane. Everytime I turned the plane back into the wind, it gained altitude.

Eventually, I enlisted the aid of a friend with good eyes and we tried to get it back. Full down elevator didn't have any effect and I thought I might be out of range of the mighty Hi-Tec AM Tx that came with the RTF Easy Star (!).

Eventually, the deep blue of the sky swallowed it up and for all I know it's still up there.

Anybody find my speck, shoot me a P.M. No more downwind flying for me; max. altitude (for me), we'll call 500 feet.

[little flyer]

i was at 900 feet with a 2m and it was becomeing difficult to see.
could be something to do with humidity....

[MTT]

I must say, I find your numbers hard to believe…
For example, I fly 2 e-sailplanes, a CHK Cumulus full-house, 3.4 m ( 133 in ) span, and a Thermik XL , 4m ( 157 in ) span. I have had both of them at 1500 ft ( altitude reported by picolario ), but that was about as high I dared to go, they just became too hard to see, so, a 60 in glider at 1500ft…. ?
As I said, I find it really hard to believe, and I do have good eyesight…

Some illustrations and calculations of the matter :

You rarely will be flying directly overhead, so the actual distance between you and your model is even bigger :
Suppose, your model is at 1500 ft altitude, and you are looking up at it at an 45 deg angle :

http://www.mkrusa.com/images/miscellaneous/Scan1.jpg

Where A= 1500 / sin@

sin45deg = 0.707 ==> A=1500/0.707 = 2121 ft

So, your model is roughly 2100 ft away from you.


Now, to illustrate what a 60 in ( 5ft ) model 2100 ft away means :
http://www.mkrusa.com/images/miscellaneous/Scan10001.jpg
tan@ = 5/2100= 0.00238

In this illustration you can see that the 60 in model at 2100 ft distance will appear to be as big as the value “x” at 10 ft.

To find “x” :

tan@=x/10 ==> x= 10 * tan@ = 10* 0.00238 = 0.0238ft = 0.2856 in !

So, looking at a 60 in. sailplane from 2100 ft, is like looking at something the size of a little more than a ¼ inch from 10ft !

IMHO, you might see the plane, but no way will you be able to see what it is doing, much less control it…

Another big factor is , of course, the air itself, and the time of the day.
On a clear, crisp, day ( like today here in Ohio) you will have a lot better visibility that on a muggy, hazy summer day..

For example, on a very clear day last fall, I had my Flair Ka8 ( 3.75 m span)up at 1700 ft, according to the picolario, and had no trouble seeing it. However, being a scale sailplane, the Ka8 has a fat fuselage compared to my other sailplanes, and the wings are not as skinny, root chord is 13 in.

Michael

[solo6796]

I specked out my Spectra one day, and lost it.....

I prefer to get up to nearly speck and play around some.... spins, loops, inverted stuff, while coming back down to find another thermal...

AJ

[solo6796]

Hawkie!

[aeajr]

This thread is not theoretical for me. Last Sunday I lost my Easy Star (yes, I said Easy Star) to the skies. My vision is corrected to 20/20 with wrap-around prescription sunglasses.

My plane was about 300 yards away and 300 feet in the air when the wind changed. What was an off-shore breeze turned into a southern Santa Ana in the blink of an eye. The wind was now blowing at my back as I looked at my plane. Everytime I turned the plane back into the wind, it gained altitude.

Eventually, I enlisted the aid of a friend with good eyes and we tried to get it back. Full down elevator didn't have any effect and I thought I might be out of range of the mighty Hi-Tec AM Tx that came with the RTF Easy Star (!).

Eventually, the deep blue of the sky swallowed it up and for all I know it's still up there.

Anybody find my speck, shoot me a P.M. No more downwind flying for me; max. altitude (for me), we'll call 500 feet.

The range on the Hitec radio that comes with the Easy Star is 3000 feet, so I doubt you were out of range. Many of my spec-outs with the Spirit were with that same radio.

Unfortunate that you lost your plane.

[dhauch]

Hi all,
I was flying with Troy Lawicki last summer and I was right under him flying my 3 meter Tragi and he was flying his own design 2 meter Duck and is talking altimeter said 4300' !

It looked like a spot of dust on my glasses. :-)

He's been over 4000' a few times that I know of for sure.

dave hauch
mich.

[aeajr]

Question, are these altimiters corrected for local altitude above sea level? If you are 1500 feet above sea level, what altitude does it report on the ground?

[xtc]

Hi all,
I was flying with Troy Lawicki last summer and I was right under him flying my 3 meter Tragi and he was flying his own design 2 meter Duck and is talking altimeter said 4300' !

It looked like a spot of dust on my glasses. :-)

He's been over 4000' a few times that I know of for sure.

dave hauch
mich.

here is a better question for this thread;;who cares to fly at 4000 ft?? i guess even if it is possiable is this a good thing to do?

also,doing it is one thing ,but i dont think it should be advertised?? :eek:

[MTT]

These altimeters ( at least the picolario and Skymelody/Skypanel) report AGL (Altitude above Ground Level).
They zero themselves everytime you turn them on.

Michael

[rcbrust]

aeajr,

The RAM altimeter zeros itself wherever you turn it on at. The FlightView software which comes with the unit also allows you to re-zero at any point in the plotted data.

Randy

[xtc]

These altimeters ( at least the picolario and Skymelody/Skypanel) report AGL (Altitude above Ground Level).
They zero themselves everytime you turn them on.

Michael

do these varios have an exterior probe or are they subject to lag times etc from being inside the fuze??

[MTT]

No, no exterior probe, so there might be a little lag, but most fuselages are pretty well "ventilated" to the exterior, so I don't think there is a big difference.

Michael

P.S.
who cares to fly at 4000 ft??
I just did the math again, for a 2m sailplane at 4000ft distance :
2m from 4000 ft away is like looking at something 1 inch big from 50 ft !

I just tried it out, drew the silhoutte of an airplane with 1 inch span onto a piece of cardboard, and looked at it from 50 ft. away....
Forget it...

[xtc]

its a funny thing if you think about it becuase it those alitudes the vario is really just a ;brag-o-meter lol

xtc

[Radioguy]

Hi MTT:

I did the same experiment this morning using your first example where the model was a little over a quarter inch at ten feet and even with my diminished visual accuity had no problem seeing my "scale model" on the wall at that distance.

Pretty neat that you have figured out those examples, and thank-you for taking the time to do so.

Regards,
Lee

[evan]

FWIW, The altimeters are usually used in setting-up competition sailplanes as an aid in finding the best combination for launch, zoom, glide:sink, reflex, etc. These gadgets can show some pretty phenomenal (at times unbelievable) altitude measurements that people in our small sailplane community just cant help comparing notes.
Now I'm sure some people use them as a "brag-o-meter" but probably not very much ;)

[aeajr]

Now I'm sure some people use them as a "brag-o-meter" but probably not very much ;)

A BRAG-O-METER? I don't have one of those. Where do I order!

A brag-o-meter! Brilliant!

[evan]

A BRAG-O-METER? I don't have one of those. Where do I order!

A brag-o-meter! Brilliant!

aeajr, Look at post #31. I dont deserve the credit. You can order one from Randy (rcbrust), see post #28. But remember it's intended use :)

[aeajr]

Oh yes, its intended use. Must not laud over others with our toys. How rude!

Then I don't want one. Shucks! :(

[Sparky Paul]

I ginned up this image for using at 50 feet.. the sizes of the plane are listed in inches on the left, degrees on the right, when the full image is printed to 10.5x8.25".
Too dark outside to use it right now, but tomorrow..
The plane on the left BTW uses a 64" span wing, the plane on the right uses tha same fuselage and tail, with an 86" wing.
I discovered dark blue isn't all that nifty color for our typical blue skies out here. :)
(it's carrying the Exilim 3.2M on a tilting mount... looking straight down in the left plane, to the right in the right plane.)

[aeajr]

So, If I put this up 50 feet away and looked at it, what would it be telling me? Do these planes represent some kind of altitude at 50 feet?

[Sparky Paul]

The distances are:
for the plane on the left:
1334'
1997'
3075'
3819'
and on the right:
1793'
2689'
4065'
5132'
It's highly unlikely anyone will see the last two in either...

[m_acree]

So, If I put this up 50 feet away and looked at it, what would it be telling me?

Not nearly as much as if you put it up and looked at it from a few feet away then slowly backed away over a period of 10-20 minutes which somewhat simulates a flight by allowing your eyes to adjust and focus on the objects.

[m_acree]

You can estimate the distance to your plane.........

Measure the diameter of the ball on top of your antenna....Call that B. the distance from your eyes to the antenna ball. For me it's 40 inches. Call that A. Determine the approximate wingspans of your planes...Call that W.If D is the distance to your plane when the wingspan fits the ball on your antenna, then A / B = D / W.... And D = W x A / B.


So let's say a 747 with a wingspan of ~200 ft flies overhead and just fits across the ball of your antenna. According to the formula W=200' or 2,400"

D = 2,400" x 40" x 8 / 3

D = 256,000" = ~21,333'

That sounds about right. I like it!

[LuftAdler70]

Hope this tip saves someone's plane in the future.

[Sparky Paul]

I get antsy looking at the 2nd largest image from 30 feet, which is about 900 feet equivalent, which is close to what I found using the Casio altimeter.

[Bill Harris]

My personal limit for a 2M is around 2000'; but the older I get, the more floaters I have and this limit is decreasing all the time. :(

My recent record for an AP-SS is 1650', recorded w/ a ZLog, so I guess there is hope, still.

--Bill

[wakumann]

Find this quite tread quite amusing:
Braging with altitude, 3,650 ft with a SS, actualy hard to belive, but on a 2nd thought it came to my mind :
1.This is unsafe for Sport- planes and /or commercial planes.
2.It will get you a stiff neck
3. not much fun to "fly".
Also I'm not sure if this altitude is legal for Toy planes?
And as noted from LuftAdler70 in another tread he uses a Rx (GWS) rated for 500m.

Pretty smart..
Thomas

BTW: I can get my electric (120") F3B ship to this altitude, but why???

[aeajr]

Man is a competitive animal. We are always trying to break another barrier.

Why did they send a model airplane across the ocean? Because it was fun? They could not even see it, and they lost 4 before the 5th one made it.

We all want to test our ability in one way or another. So we set a goal and when we acheive it, it becomes the baseline upon which to pile the next goal.

Why fly a Slow Stick to 4000 feet? To see if you can!

[LuftAdler70]

Man is a competitive animal. We are always trying to break another barrier.

Why did they send a model airplane across the ocean? Because it was fun? They could not even see it, and they lost 4 before the 5th one made it.

We all want to test our ability in one way or another. So we set a goal and when we acheive it, it becomes the baseline upon which to pile the next goal.

Why fly a Slow Stick to 4000 feet? To see if you can!

OUTSTANDING! Well said, well said! :D Please re-post on the Aerial Photo board where I am getting all kinds of flak for flying to 3600ft.

[surfimp]

This past spring I went to the Los Banos scale aerotow event. I didn't yet have a proper big glider so I took my 2m Fox...on tow that thing disappeared really quick, and I have 20/20 vision. I would guess that it got to around 1000-1500 feet before I decided I'd had enough. Plenty of time for some fun aerobatics on the way back down. Personally I don't really enjoying putting a model glider that high up in the sky, mainly for the reason alluded to above--there are real, human-carrying planes up there that I don't want to run the risk of interfering with if I can help it.

Steve

[flyonline]

there are real, human-carrying planes up there that I don't want to run the risk of interfering with if I can help it.

Not as silly as you might think. At my local slope, which is a huge ridge that runs for many K'ms in either direction, both RC planes and hangliders/paragliders fly with a fairly loose rule that hangies on the north side, and we pretend planes fly on the south end, and never the 'twain shall meet. If they do come down our way, there usually well back from the ridge and higher than most guys fly at, so no biggee but if they're struggling we get out of there way and most guys are pretty cooperative and will alert others if one is heading our way long before anything can happen.

But..

I was flying there a few weeks ago, flying mostly huge thermals that were coming through very consistantly and had managed to seriously speck out my mini corado (60" composite) which is one of the easiest planes I've ever seen at altitude. In the back of my mind was the fact that some small single engine planes used the ridge to run back and forth around the area, when I heard the buzzing of a single engine plane fairly close by. I was understandably somewhat nervous and immediatly began to cast around for the plane, but was unable to see it. I had not unreasonably been looking up above and around my plane, when I saw it fly UNDERNEATH my plane, a bit above eye level (some 150m or so above ground level). Now what the hell a plane was flying so low, and so close to a well known hangliders I've no idea however it scared the crap out of me, thoughts of hitting a plane was not something I'd like to see happen in real life. Imagine trying to explain that to the aviation authority or police. Not only that, but some guys fly there F3B/J planes up there too, so they'd be able to get a lot higher than I was. Suffice to say that I'll be putting down as soon as I hear any planes about.

Steve

[m_acree]

Find this quite tread quite amusing...
1.This is unsafe for Sport- planes and /or commercial planes.
There is always a risk when flying model planes. I mainly fly slope along the coast with the highway below and helis and planes in front and above. When I fly TD it's at fields surrounded by residential. As for the "real" air traffic I live and fly in Los Angeles, the busiest airspace in the world for real and model aircraft.
2.It will get you a stiff neck
Only when the conditions are just right!
3. not much fun to "fly".
I rarely see flyers happier than when they have specked out their planes to their "comfort zone." I really can't imagine that anyone is attempting aerobatics at this distance.
BTW: I can get my electric (120") F3B ship to this altitude, but why???
Since you know you can you have no reason to try. I'm curious though, since you obviously know that you can launch fly and land your planes successfully, why bother?

[xtc]

Man is a competitive animal. We are always trying to break another barrier.

Why did they send a model airplane across the ocean? Because it was fun? They could not even see it, and they lost 4 before the 5th one made it.

We all want to test our ability in one way or another. So we set a goal and when we acheive it, it becomes the baseline upon which to pile the next goal.

Why fly a Slow Stick to 4000 feet? To see if you can!

i understand every thing that is mentioned here and yes,i agree ,we do like to push the envelope but i already know that i can fly kities near the airport but even at a very young age i knew that would be a stupid thing to do??so i dont do it!

there is no doubt people will climb way beyond the legal limits [yes,there are laws] but as i said in an earlier post ,dont advertise it!!advertising it proves to me that it IS just for bragging rights ,nobody really cares unless,of course we all start to loose our right to the skies

xtc

[aeajr]

Safety is always the first consideration. Fun can turn to tragedy pretty fast when safety is forgotten.

Comments have been made about laws. Laws are typically local and can vary wildly, so I won't comment on them. There are certainly rules and safety codes, and I hope we are all following them.

I hope everyone here is an AMA member, but even if you are not, the guidelines published by the AMA are good sound recommendations that promote safety. If you haven't looked at them recently, they can be found here. http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/105.PDF They are easy to understand and easy to follow. They are worth review from time to time to remind us of what we should already know.


The AMA National Model Aircraft Safety Code makes statements about altitude. Let me paraphrase the points.

You should not fly higher than approximately 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport without notifying the airport operator.

Give right of way and avoid flying in the proximity of full-scale aircraft.

Where necessary, an observer should supervise flying to avoid conflict with full-scale aircraft. (I would think this would be situations like being in a take-off landing pattern.)

In addition, the AMA defines a model aircraft as one that is operated under control of a pilot on the ground within unaided sight. That means no scopes, no binoculars. Other than that, there are no specifications about altitude that I can find.

Finally, all models should have the owners name and contact information. While that may help you get the plane back, it also assures that if YOU cause an accident, they know who you are to hold you accountable for your actions.

Those are the recommendations of the national organization. They make a lot of sense to me. They don't say you can't fly at 4000 feet. They do say you should do it safely.

If you can see your plane with an unaided eye and maintain control of it, you can fly it at whatever altitude you wish. You are responsible to keep it away from full-scale aircraft and must keep it below 400 feet within 3 miles of an airport.

I hope this provides some useful information and helps clear up what is and is not permitted, at least under the AMA code.

[xtc]

[QUOTE=
I hope this provides some useful information and helps clear up what is and is not permitted, at least under the AMA code


i could be wrong but its not the AMA that controls the air traffic and these are merely guide lines ,am i right?

its the M.O.T. here in canada that would be pressing charges if something was to happen.

i fly with an all glow club with my sailplanes and a few of the members own and fly fullsize power into our field or at least do a lot of fly-by`s, on two differant occations now theses guys have come between me and the sight line of my glider,,the pilots of these planes are not expecting anyone with a glow plane to be at the height i fly so there not even looking
the problem is;; they shouldnt have to!! i shouldnt be there or so i have been told :( ya know,i think there right,after all im flying a toy!

xtc

[aeajr]

You are right, AMA does not contol the air. In the US it would be the FAA. AMA works with the FAA and other agencies in the USA to establish guidelines. The only teeth the AMA has is that if you violate the guidelines, your insurance is null and void!

If full scale airplanes fly into your field, by AMA guidelines, you are at an airport and should not be above 400 feet, say 140 meters. It does not matter whether it is a glider, a glow plane, a parkflyer,a hand launched glider or an RC paper airplane.

Per your note above, if you should not be there in the first place, that settles everything.

If this is not an airport, then I would question whether these guys should be flying their full-scale planes there, but I don't know the local rules and laws.

[Tim Jonas]

personally, I dislike flying if I have to work that hard to see the airplane. The only sailplane I specked out was a standard Aquila a long time ago. Scared the hell out of me, and it curbed me from doing it again.

[AustinTatious]

To those of you braggin about going to such heights...

I fly Full scale for a meager living and support of my "addiction" to the RC hobby.

The comments such as "There is always a risk (of collision)when flying model planes and the like realy have me REALLY TICKED OFF.

You think it is SO great what you are doing/ Have done? It will take 1, ONE, and ONLY 1 midair collision between a model and a full scale airplane to truly upset and change our hobby. It would not surprise me if all outdoor UAV operations by "amatures" were made Illegal.... You dont think so? Think about a plane going down and killing a few people beacause some Jerk with a model plane thought it would be "fun to see if he could get that high"

All of you intentionally going so high should truly be ashamed. You think you are competant enough to get your plane out of the way if you see a full scale coming? How ignorant can you be... You obviouly have no experience in REAL aviation.

Stop being Children and be responcible hobbiest. This is just abotu the most rediculous thing I have read on RCgroups in a long time.

Those of you who think this is OK to do need to ask yourself if you want to be the one responcible for ruining a fun hobby for millions of people. The is 0 need for anyone to eek a plane up to 4000 feet "jsut to see if you can". If you want to contact the FAA and get permission and do it in a safe regulated manner, this is another thing. however, to On a whim send a plane up that high is truly illresponcible in every sense of the word.

Luftadler, you deserve every bit of flak you are gettin. you are breaking FAA regulations and potentially endangering lives and the hobby its self.

[wakumann]

@aeajr
Why did they send a model airplane across the ocean? Because it was fun? They could not even see it, and they lost 4 before the 5th one made it.

Comparing this unproven altitude bragging to the Transatlantik crossing is quite a stretch:
This model used a GPS with a back-up system, plus additional fail safe and the altitude was set between only to 380-570ft (120-180m). Falling into the Atlantic,... the chances that somebody get’s hurt, I would estimated it’s close to a trillion.


Back to Adler:
Everbody can get Models up so high, after 1500ft is mostly freeflight anyway, but people with some common sense wouldn't fly outside their Comfortzone. And nobody feels really comfortable to look at a pinpoint in the Sky.

BTW: I did some Alpine soaring and flew at distances with big Gliders so I know what's about.

Cheers
Thomas

[schrederman]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with my friend, Austin. The air space belongs to modellers too, and not just those flying general aviation. I fly very high a lot of times, and I'm a full-scale pilot, too. I have flown a demo at our glider club this year. I was invited to do just that. Any air traffic in the area was warned of model traffic. There are those that fly general aviation that are very irresponsible, too.

Again, the AMA issued guidelines. How many times have you flown your model sailplane over 400 feet? Not trying to kick you in the gut, just think about it before you put out such a rant. If you've been at 401 feet of higher, you're just as guilty as the rest of us.

See ya...

Jack Womack

[wakumann]

To add a positive spin on all this altitude treads:
fly Slope at 0' Altitude just in front of you or below, makes the most fun and only the risk to fly out of sight if you are too fast.

Cheers
Thomas

[aeajr]

Again, the AMA issued guidelines. How many times have you flown your model sailplane over 400 feet? Not trying to kick you in the gut, just think about it before you put out such a rant. If you've been at 401 feet of higher, you're just as guilty as the rest of us.

See ya...

Jack Womack

That 400 foot restriction is only near airports.
:rolleyes:

[aeajr]

you are breaking FAA regulations and potentially endangering lives and the hobby its self.

Austin,

I am not a pilot of full-scale planes so I turn to you for information. What FAA regulations are being violated? I am sincerely interested in knowing. I would never intentionally violate any FAA regulation.

If there is such a regulation I am sure it would have been incorporated into the AMA safety code.

[MTT]

You think it is SO great what you are doing/ Have done? It will take 1, ONE, and ONLY 1 midair collision between a model and a full scale airplane to truly upset and change our hobby. It would not surprise me if all outdoor UAV operations by "amatures" were made Illegal.... You dont think so? Think about a plane going down and killing a few people beacause some Jerk with a model plane thought it would be "fun to see if he could get that high"

Well, maybe AustinTatious went a bit overborad here, but he has a point !
It has already happened in Germany, when a full size motorized sailplane ( Dimona, or something of the likes) collided with a model sailplane, and crashed, and both occupants were killed...
The following investigation and trial cleared the model pilot, since he had been within the flight area assigned to his club, and the fullsize sailplane was flying too low, but this just goes to show us, the we as model pilots have an obligation here !
Even though we also are users of the airspace, I think it goes without saying that human life takes preference over our fun...
It is very hard to spot other airplanes, when you are flying, and much harder, if not impossible, to spot the much smaller model airplanes.
So, if we take our models, and venture to altitudes which normally are the domain of the fullsize planes, it is a bit risky ( irresponsible ? )

Michael

[LuftAdler70]

Falling into the Atlantic,... the chances that somebody get’s hurt, I would estimated it’s close to a trillion.

Back to Adler:
Everbody can get Models up so high, after 1500ft is mostly freeflight anyway, but people with some common sense wouldn't fly outside their Comfortzone. And nobody feels really comfortable to look at a pinpoint in the Sky.

Cheers
Thomas

1. Just sub "Falling into the Atlantic" with "Hitting a commercial plane" into your statement.

2. So suddenly your definition of "comfortzone" applies to everyone else in this hobby.

[AustinTatious]

Page 1 of the FAR defines aircraft as

: A device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air.

It does not specify manned or unmanned and RPV's/UAV's can and are classified as aircraft.


FAR 91.13~No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.


Subject to some interpritation I am sure... Just have a close call with a passenger carrying aircraft at 3000 feet with a Slow stick and see if they consider that reckless.

It realyl depends on hhow many peopel you affect and how mad they are.

You dont thik that if you caused 727 to crash into a school they wouldnt thro a few violations at you? This is an extreme yes, but its to make a point.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with my friend, Austin. The air space belongs to modellers too, and not just those flying general aviation. I fly very high a lot of times, and I'm a full-scale pilot, too. I have flown a demo at our glider club this year. I was invited to do just that. Any air traffic in the area was warned of model traffic. There are those that fly general aviation that are very irresponsible, too.

Yes it does. Down in Class G airspace. From the surface to 1200 AGL. anythign goes there. However above that you have entered Class E which is controlled. I will call an FAA friend and see if he can definitly clear or confirm that Our planes are subject to regulation in that airspace. In G, we are fine.

I want you to keep in mind that what has me really ticked off is not only that these altitudes are being reached, but how it is being done. This isnt a guy with a High performance sailplane that can be seen at 1200 feet and lower the nose and move out at 100 mph if needed to move out of somones way... This is a 20.00 slow stick being taken up to 3000+ feet. How well can you see you Houston Hawk at 3k feet? now imagine a slow stick! How fast do you think that SS can manuver? He think she can get out of the way.

I dont see why anyone would want to take a model that high "on a whim" If you want to set a record for highest slow stick.. call an FSDO and ask what you need to do to do it safely from crying out loud.

[aeajr]

Page 1 of the FAR defines aircraft as

You dont thik that if you caused 727 to crash into a school they wouldnt thro a few violations at you? This is an extreme yes, but its to make a point.

Thanks for the clarification.

Your point is well taken. I agree we have to be responsible with our toys. I just wanted to know what the regulation you said we were violating.

Thanks!

[capt soap]

Just use common since, hey just about all zooms of winches are 500-600 ft. The point is 4000ft is un nessasary, and a guy tooling along in a c-182 would hit your glider before he would likly see it... not good. Lee

[AustinTatious]

The following investigation and trial cleared the model pilot, since he had been within the flight area assigned to his club, and the fullsize sailplane was flying too low, but this just goes to show us, the we as model pilots have an obligation here !


Now what if that guy had been flying at 3000+ feet and hit the glider... do you think the Trial would have cleared him?

The guys doing this are being totalyl hard headed and ilresponcible. Im sure I sound like some sort of safty finatic, but my whole life I have been involved in both model and fullscale aviation.... som of the comments defending these actions are totally uniformed and ignorant of how things really are.

[flyonline]

Just to pour a bit of oil on troubled waters, we are not the only ones to take a look at out behaviour here, full sized pilots can also violate laws, or fly irresponsibly. For example, at my local hobby field (though I'm not a member) there are a number of F3J comps etc flown throughout the year. This is a designated, well known and marked RC field, not just a paddock somewhere but land that is owned (or leased) by the club and has been there for years. Yet I've seen on more than one occasion pilots overflying at ridiculously low levels, well below what F3J planes etc fly at. I've also seen helicopters do the same thing. Who's responsible now? I understand that full size planes have right of way because of danger to human lives etc, but pilots who simply fly over a field such as that, on a saturday afternoon when the carpark is full of cars and the air full of planes are irresponsible too.

Steve

[AustinTatious]

Just to pour a bit of oil on troubled waters, we are not the only ones to take a look at out behaviour here, full sized pilots can also violate laws, or fly irresponsibly. For example, at my local hobby field (though I'm not a member) there are a number of F3J comps etc flown throughout the year. This is a designated, well known and marked RC field, not just a paddock somewhere but land that is owned (or leased) by the club and has been there for years. Yet I've seen on more than one occasion pilots overflying at ridiculously low levels, well below what F3J planes etc fly at. I've also seen helicopters do the same thing. Who's responsible now? I understand that full size planes have right of way because of danger to human lives etc, but pilots who simply fly over a field such as that, on a saturday afternoon when the carpark is full of cars and the air full of planes are irresponsible too.

Steve

Absolutly they are. They should not be passing with 500 feet horizontally of any persons on the ground if lowere than 500 feet agl. However with reguards to model aircraft, id bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that they have the right of way and so they should.

I came real close to hitting some sort of weather balloon one time.. scared the heII out of me. Things come and go REAL fast at 200 knots! Likely an Rc at the same flight level would never be seen. However they are quite easily spotted when flying low in a traffic pattern at an RC field.

If you arent having fun with your SS anymore, build somthing else... dont send it up to 3000 feet and Hope you keep control of it.. Hope no full scale comes by and takes a hit, hope the wing dosent come off and send the radio gear plumiting down, hope you dont loose sight of it, battery dies ect.. so on & so on.

[MTT]

This is a designated, well known and marked RC field, not just a paddock somewhere but land that is owned (or leased) by the club and has been there for years. Yet I've seen on more than one occasion pilots overflying at ridiculously low levels, well below what F3J planes etc fly at

Well, if something happens in that case, it will be filed under "pilot error"

If you fly at your model at 3000 ' AGL, and something happens, it will be filed under "unvoluntary manslaughter"

[AustinTatious]

Well, if something happens in that case, it will be filed under "pilot error"

If you fly at your model at 3000 ' AGL, and something happens, it will be filed under "unvoluntary manslaughter"

Smartest thing anyone has posted here yet... absolutly correct!

[xtc]

Just to pour a bit of oil on troubled waters, we are not the only ones to take a look at out behaviour here, full sized pilots can also violate laws, or fly irresponsibly. For example, at my local hobby field (though I'm not a member) there are a number of F3J comps etc flown throughout the year. This is a designated, well known and marked RC field, not just a paddock somewhere but land that is owned (or leased) by the club and has been there for years. Yet I've seen on more than one occasion pilots overflying at ridiculously low levels, well below what F3J planes etc fly at. I've also seen helicopters do the same thing. Who's responsible now? I understand that full size planes have right of way because of danger to human lives etc, but pilots who simply fly over a field such as that, on a saturday afternoon when the carpark is full of cars and the air full of planes are irresponsible too.

Steve
this is the kind of thing that happens at our field ,its a very small club on private property and when i talked to the fullsize pilots involved they just told me that ;they have the right-of-way and that unless they come down real low ,there is nothing i can do about it!

they have been told never to land there again,at that point they will be out of order.

to be honest,i dont care what the rules are ,i know that if my toy,hits or gets hit,,i will loose my privilage to fly!

i dont have any problem at all with guys flying as high as they want but make should you inform the people in your area that control the skies.

in this area the model rocket guys are very active and they have clearance to do so ,we should too!

to the guy flying the slow stick to 3000 ft,how many guys have you really impressed???
get a grip!!!!!!!

xtc

[Soar_dude]

Ok I need to chime in about this 400' thing. Thermal duration and F3J go through 400' EVERY TIME THEY LAUNCH! So 400' means nothing to a thermal flyers heck beolw 300' you get stuck bouncing from bubble to bubble scratching and clawing to get above the goo and into a devloped thermal. I used to fly down at NAS Lemoore and have flown above a 1000' with a 2 meter the apperant winspan was approx. 1/2" at altitude and I have 20/20 corrected vision. it is not just distance vision but the visual acuity to see the shape of the glider at that distance and not just a blob of black.
As far as flying a slow stick at 3000' that makes me nervous and the aircrew I work for. Correct me if I am wrong but a slow stick is "park flyer" not a high altitude UAV :)
why fly it that high??? "heyup heyup cuz I can" is probably the standard response.

Soar Dude

[schrederman]

Yes, the 400' guideline is only near airports. The fact is that we are often nearer to airports than we realize, especially in the DFW and Houston and whatever metropolitan area we live in or near. Just be careful, and be responsible, but also remember your model has the same right to the airspace as the full-scale guys.

Jack Womack

[AustinTatious]

Yes, the 400' guideline is only near airports. The fact is that we are often nearer to airports than we realize, especially in the DFW and Houston and whatever metropolitan area we live in or near. Just be careful, and be responsible, but also remember your model has the same right to the airspace as the full-scale guys.

Jack Womack

We have this same discussion going on in the aerial photagraphy forum.

Im in the process of trying to find out exactly how "we" stand in reguards to FAA regs. Consider this Jack.. FLying in the DFW area, any aircraft under the class B veil must have a Mode C transponder.... Its very busy. Im trying to find out how the FAA classifies us. God hope they dont want us runnign transponders!

[schrederman]

Austin... Don't draw any attention to us that we dont want... eek! I'm glad you didn't take my comments like a sharp stick in the eye... See you soon.

Jack

[Desert flier]

Have been reading your thread very interesting
I specked out my 2m brolga yesterday got disorientated and lost it. went chasing after it in the car across country ( open gibber planes ) could not catch it last seen it spinning down in the distance could only see the wings flashing in the sun. Spent all day today on the trail bike looking for the wrekage no luck. Then went for a fly with my dad in his Glass air to see if the model could be seen from the air nothing. I live at Coober Pedy Australia so my model could be lost for ever with not many people going around these areas. The area It most probasbly is in is the moon plane this is the area that mad max Beyond thunder dome was filmed at.
Next model i get I will be a lot more carefull when getting realy high
Are there ELBs type things that are available for models

[xtc]

Have been reading your thread very interesting
I specked out my 2m brolga yesterday got disorientated and lost it. went chasing after it in the car across country ( open gibber planes ) could not catch it last seen it spinning down in the distance could only see the wings flashing in the sun. Spent all day today on the trail bike looking for the wrekage no luck. Then went for a fly with my dad in his Glass air to see if the model could be seen from the air nothing. I live at Coober Pedy Australia so my model could be lost for ever with not many people going around these areas. The area It most probasbly is in is the moon plane this is the area that mad max Beyond thunder dome was filmed at.
Next model i get I will be a lot more carefull when getting realy high
Are there ELBs type things that are available for models
ELBs??? enlighten us,whats a ELBs? [man i hate having to think]

xtc

[Frank B]

I have had a GPS on board my glider on some occations. It has a 2.28m wingspan and a thin fiberglass fuse. The highest I have ever flown it is 537m (1762feet). At that point I could not see the fuse, but both the wing and tail was visible (although very small).

[aeajr]

Have been reading your thread very interesting
I specked out my 2m brolga yesterday got disorientated and lost it.

Are there ELBs type things that are available for models

Yes there are ELB, electronic locator beacons for models. There are two types that I have seen.

Audio beacons - very inexpensive - $8-$30 range. :D

Most planes are lost relatively close to the field do to misjudgment, an unexpected gust, or a component failure. You see it go down in woods, brush, tall grass, a swamp or the like. You could be searching within 5 meters of the plane but not be able to see it, or hear the servos move.

This is were audio beacons are most useful. Depending on the situation these can be heard for 20-100 meters. :rolleyes: If you are pretty sure you know where it went down, these could make the difference between a 2 day search or a 5 minute walk of shame. This article discusses these.

Plane Locators & Battery Monitors
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=67


Radio Beacons - Expensive

These involve a radio transmitter you put in the plane. It transmits a known signal that can be picked up by a radio direction finder at great distances. The claim is 30-90 KM in the air or 3-10 KM on the ground. So, in your situation, you could have tracked it in the air even if you could not see it.

The Walston Locator
http://www.texastimers.com/helpful_hints/walston/wal_cover.htm

The transmitters run between $130 and $200 and the receivers run between $400 and $900. :eek: While I know people who own their own receivers, more often the receiver is a club resource and individuals have one transmitter each and move it from plane to plane.

I use both kinds. I have an audio beacon in each of my flyable planes. They also monitor the receiver batteries and warn me of channel conflict. I have one Walston transmitter that I move between planes.

I have seen true experts, scratching for lift in order to make contest times, drop planes in deep woods. :( I have also seen component failures result in a run away plane, similar to yours. So it is not just the beginner or the incompetent who benefit from these. It is the bold, the unlucky and those who push the edge who benefit as well.

If you only fly directly overhead at low altitude and will never have a component failure, you don't need either one. :)

The links above take you to the details.

[Ledbetter]

For my next Easy Star, I have bought (at Hobby People) some mirror-shiny decal material for the leading edges of the wings. I have seen such products referred to in other threads as well.

I'm hoping that the glint of light off the mirrored edge will take make it easier to see straight-on.


Regards.

[Desert flier]

Thanks for all the advice I thinh the main problem was inexpirience I thought I was flying back towards me when in reality I was probably flying further down wind and away the country around here is very flat and open can see for about 6oom to 1k from the ground so the locator beacon would be realy handy. I was being driven along on the bonet of the car got about 4km from launch point when glider went out of site

[aeajr]

For my next Easy Star, I have bought (at Hobby People) some mirror-shiny decal material for the leading edges of the wings. I have seen such products referred to in other threads as well.

I'm hoping that the glint of light off the mirrored edge will take make it easier to see straight-on.


Regards.

I do something similar, but I set it up so I get flashes.

Get one of the monokote chrome trim sheets. I think they are about
5 inches by about 3 feet in size. They are adhesive backed.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bi...?&I=LXHX87&P=ML

I cut 1" wide by 2.5" long strips. I wrap three of them around the leading
edge on each wing on my Spirit 2M, Sagitta 600 2m, and my Legend 3M, spaced evenly over the wing.

You can arrange them nicely for eye appeal. You can use more strips, but I
find that 3 gives me a good set of flashes. When the plane is very high, as
you turn toward the sun, you will get a flash off of each strip, so you get a
series of flashes on each circle. This can be very helpful in seeing the plane
when it is high or far
away, especially when you are looking at it more along the wing and less from
the bottom.

If the contrast with the sky is poor the flashes can help you
track the plane when you might have trouble seeing it. I find it also helps
with orientation. If the sun is to my back, and I am coming back from a
distance I just keep the flashes coming toward me.

Quick, cheap, easy!

There are products like skysheen out that that have similar benefits, but
you can't usually get it at the local hobby shop. These sheets are
pretty commonly available.

I have now even added them to my ZAGI 3C slope wing and my Electrajet
parkflyer. These both have rather small cross sections when they are coming
at you, so even if they are not high, I find the flashes helpful.

[Desert flier]

The watson locator seams like the go for wide open areas will have to club together and get one thanks for the lead

[aeajr]

If your club tends to range out off the field, as most do, the Walston is an excellent investment. However the beeper type are really very effective most of hte time. We have a walston system for our club, but I just made a group buy for the club of 16 of these. http://www.californiasailplanes.com/Lost%20model%20alarm.html and most of us have Walston transmitters.

If you are into slope soaring, the Walston may be over kill. The beepers may be all you need.

[Desert flier]

Does anybody know if somebody is wanting to sell a 2nd hand walston reciver I would be very interested if not i will have to start saving

[aeajr]

This and other forums have a place for buy and sell. You can list things you want to buy.

You might also check out e-bay.

You might also contact the mfg and see if they have sales, specials, old models, etc.

Just some thoughts.

[Desert flier]

I found my glider after 15hours looking over 3 days it was 1.5 km from where i was standing and lost site of it The total distance from launch point 4km. The only damage is the wing poly joint and reglue the fin back on every thing else is fine The wing will be recoverd in bright red with hologram reflective tape i have a friend whi is a sign writer who can give me some scraps. the wing was getting a few holes by landing in the sticks and 3-4 days out in the wind did not help it had quite a few rub marks on covering will be good for a change anyway Am so happy to Find it it was chewen me up knowing it was out there someware . The misus had droped the hint that she didnt mond if i got another as she could see that I was spending so much time looking for the thing.

[m_acree]

Congrats! I just love a happy ending.

[aeajr]

The misus had droped the hint that she didnt mond if i got another as she could see that I was spending so much time looking for the thing.

Oh man, you didn't tell her you found it, did you? :confused: Oh No!

You need to get the new plane ... THEN FIND IT! :eek:

You must be new at this. :D

[Desert flier]

now you tell mew

[Soar_dude]

Oh man, you didn't tell her you found it, did you? :confused: Oh No!

You need to get the new plane ... THEN FIND IT! :eek:

You must be new at this. :D

HAHAHAHA ROTFL :D

[flystoolow]

How high can it fly?

How to find out the easy way:

1-Let your plane disappear into a flat bottomed cumulus cloud
2-Phone the local airport and ask, "How high is cloud-base this afternoon?"

Here's what you will find with excellent eyesight and a typical 2m glider:

1000' ...clearly visible, fairly easy to do full aerobatics
2000' ...whole plane still visible but pinhead size
2500' ...tail and fuselage have totally disappeared
3000' ...now you are flying a tiny black speck (practise by lying on your back
in the living-room and watching a flea crawl across the ceiling)
Try not to look at your buddy when he speaks!
3500' ...Keep your antenna pointed directly towards the pin-point speck because if you blink twice, YOU WILL LOSE SIGHT OF IT, and the pointer really helps save the day. (If your friend is pointing directly at his plane while describing where it is in relation to the cloud and it takes you over a minute to spot it, chances are it's over 3000')

Interesting note:
One of our pilots, who describes his vision as, "Not great," loses sight of 2m gliders below 2000'. He usually flies between launch and 1500'.


An aside:

A local kid, (back room genius type), launches his computer controlled plane via weather balloon at 60,000'. Not a typo. Sixty thousand feet. He pre-sets a program which controls the flight path via onboard GPS and altimiter (and some magic dust, I think). Digital photos are taken at set intervals. I believe the flight begins at 400mph, perhaps less, final approach is at 40mph. Over a pre-selected field the glider automatically deploys a chute at 100' agl and comes to rest with a gentle thud. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

...ask this guy how high his 'RC' plane flies, and he can tell you!

[aeajr]

I carry an inexpensive set of binoculars with me. We have had people call for help when their parkflyer gets caught in a thermal. Sometimes the glasses are the only way to spot the plane to get it down and back to the field.

Your estimations of a 2M plane seem about right to me.

[flystoolow]

Before making some observations, I will state that I love RC thermal flying, and I also fly hang gliders, paragliders, and full size planes.

RC plane pilots have every right to fly as high as they wish.

The air above is always in motion and does not lend itself to preferential ownership. Who is to say that thee who spends the most money has more of a right to enjoy the pleasure of flying in a given air space? All Cessna pilots are keenly aware they are flying at 100 knots with very limited visibility. During flight training, I remember coming back solo from stall recovery and spin practice thinking, "Thank god I didn't hit anything!" If you are piloting a full sized aircraft and you hit something, you have an obligation to accept full responsibility because you are at fault. "But-but-but, I didn't see it," seems a rather poor excuse.

Yes, I agree, it is extremely difficult, if not often impossible, to spot anything small in the sky when you are travelling very fast. While hang gliding at 2000' I heard a muffled groan seconds before a Piper passed by 50' over my wing, probably had two soiled pants that afternoon, or he may have never even noticed me. During my in-flight exam, I failed to spot a thermalling eagle until it whizzed by my left wing at 100 knots, luckily I didn't lose any points for that!

This all goes toward saying that it really is not 100% safe to fly in full sized airplanes when you know damn well that you will have trouble avoiding an object if it magically appears in front of you ***CORRECTION: IT WAS THERE ALL ALONG AND YOU FLEW INTO IT. Now that's the truth.

The first of ten commandments for airplane pilots:

1-If thee flies fast in the sky and steers thy plane into a bird or other object thee might live or thee might die. :eek:

[Frank B]

Unless the law sets a limit. Like here in Denmark where 100m (300') is the max. allowed height for RC models.

[AustinTatious]

The air above is always in motion and does not lend itself to preferential ownership. Who is to say that thee who spends the most money has more of a right to enjoy the pleasure of flying in a given air space? All Cessna pilots are keenly aware they are flying at 100 knots with very limited visibility. During flight training, I remember coming back solo from stall recovery and spin practice thinking, "Thank god I didn't hit anything!" In other words, if you are piloting a full sized aircraft and you hit something, you are at fault. "But-but-but, I didn't see it." Nice excuse.

Yea, I feel bad for all those Pilots who get violated for hitting birds.. It is however "Their fault"

I gess the next time we go on a low level flight in the aerostar, will keep the throttles back to about 40 percent so we can stay at 100 knots or so.. that way if we see a slow stick we will ahve time to get out of its way.

[solo6796]

Austin,

Realistically, what level of damage would a 3 meter sailplane do to a full size aircraft in a mid-air? The model would be totalled, but could it disable the the aircraft?

I'm sure one through the windshield would be rough.

AJ

[MTT]

Depends what you mean by full-size....

The 727's pilot won't even notice if he plows through a 3m sailplane, as long as it doesn't hit the engines or the windshield.

The King Air's pilot will definitely notice it, the airframe wil suffer cosmetic damage.

On a Cessna 182, a 3m model can do serious damage.
And like I posted earlier it has already happened in Germany, when a model saiplane ( I believe it was a scale sailplane, in the 3-4m range) collided with a fullsize motorized glider, a Dimona or something like it. The Dimona crashed, both occupants were killed in the crash.

Michael

[AustinTatious]

Ther eis not a doubt in my mind that a 3 M sailplane inpacting a full scale woudl cause IMMENSE damage to the airfroma.. FUll size aircraft are not all that strong! They are about like paper machet when it comes to absorbing impacts. Your average tin can is about as tough as the skin on your average GA aircraft. Obviously hits to the engine or winshield woudl be bad... A hit to a wet wing, V stab, H stab or pretty much anoy part on an aircraft would do serious damage. Ive seen some big dents just from a silly little duck!