NanoBandit for brushless edf40 [Archive] - Page 25

JREEVES

Jul 26, 2005, 09:34 PM

I never mentioned that I finished and maidened my not-quite-nano Mirage last weekend. Since I was lacking a EDF 40 and Feigao(sp?) I sized up to 125% and used my EDF 55 with a Hyperion X-22 http://www.allerc.com/x22s.htm at 5000KV. AUW is 12.6 ounces with 3s1p 1500's (15C).
Saturday's maiden launch went off with an easy underhand toss at half throttle, nice 20 degree climout, slow left turn to full power climbing, then nothing but left turn on a down slope back towards the pilot! No elevon response followed by a nice power off glide straight into the fence behind me! The .050 cf rod leading edge and packing tape on the wing saved a complete cheese grater manuever, however the nose wasn't so lucky. The lipo was unscathed 30 feet beyond the fence in the grass. FAA investigators on the scene discovered that the cheesy dubro micro control horns had failed in the first turn. After returning from the field with tail firmly between legs the plucky pilot rebuilt the nose and replaced the control horns with GWS version and epoxy. All conrols and airframe integrity checked, a splash of paint and ready for the next days mission.
Sunday's flights went off without a hitch! Reasonably fast for this inexperienced jet jockey, but it'll slow down nicely and lands nearby with a light plop to the grass. So far flights are short, 4 minutes more or less, when the esc on soft cutoff starts to hunt for rpms. And the battery comes down HOT as you might expect. But I'm a very happy newbie to depron jets!

Q#1: Does GWS make a 4 blade rotor in lieu of the 6? Will it make a difference? I'm drawing 22 amps now!

Q#2: Mine seems rather roll sensitive, not uncontrollable but it got my attention! Is this common?

Thanks all for this thread!:D
Jim

Trikster

Jul 26, 2005, 09:42 PM

I wonder if a cooling hole in the nose somewhere would help the battery some. The fan will suck air through it I imagine and keep things cool.

Justin, isn't GWS glue nice on Depron? My one year old picked up my somewhat build Mirage and shook the heck out of it. foam didn't make it, but the join sure did. :D

roccobro

Jul 26, 2005, 09:47 PM

Even my wife was impressed with the bond. It was so easy too.

Jim- Sounds like you have a winner. Maybe a little high on the amps, but definitely a winner. I don't thin kthey make a 4bladed fan for the 55, only for the 64(?) and 75mm fans.

Justin

Trikster

Jul 26, 2005, 09:52 PM

Don't they make a three-bladed for the 55 or is that only the 50?

roccobro

Jul 26, 2005, 09:56 PM

Just the 50. There is actually 4 different EDF-50 rotors. Two different pitches, 2 different blade counts. The 55's have 2 different motors/housings.

Justin

JREEVES

Jul 26, 2005, 09:56 PM

may just tear it open again and put in a micro fan...we'll see

quick pics-

Trikster

Jul 26, 2005, 10:01 PM

Good Idea with the Tiger Moth stickers... I still have a set unused... :D

AirX

Jul 26, 2005, 10:15 PM

I have a Hacker 4900 in an EDF55 drawing near the same amps, tested it first with a kokam 1500hd 3s and it would not hold anything above 9volts so I have aquired a Polyquest 2200 for it and the Kokam can stay with the microfan and the 2015-5400.

Cheers,

Eric B.

Trikster

Jul 28, 2005, 11:52 AM

How big of a penalty will I suffer by not using a tapered outlet for the fan? Also, do I need a cone on the end of the motor itself?

AirX

Jul 28, 2005, 12:18 PM

The inlet of the EDF40 works decent enough to not need a set of inlet ducts but the outlet duct will provide a lot of performance. I have used all the way down to 30mm outlet end but the best overall performance is 37mm. Just by cleaning up the outlet duct you will preserve 5oz thrust on the Feigao 5300kv and 6.5oz on the 5800kv going smaller is desirable when you can use the benefits of higher efflux velocity but in the case of the nano bandit and other small nano's the drag of the airframe holds the top speeds down and average is 50mph. Quite fast for the little buggers as they look like they are doing 80. As far as a cone at the end of the motor it is not needed IMO because the airflow thru the fan and ducting is turbulent anyway and little is to be gained in the way of streamlining the motor but the little extra exposed cooling area might mean the difference in the life of the bearing it would cover, also if you use a heatsink which you should the benefits are wiped completely out by the airflow over the heatsink.

Eric B.

Trikster

Jul 28, 2005, 12:35 PM

Thanks Eric. One of these days I am going to pick your brain completely. :D I wish my printer worked... I am going to have to go the ole guesstimation route on my outlet...

Trikster

Jul 28, 2005, 01:48 PM

Another question... My duct that I put together is a cone shape, but it is flat 90 degrees on one side with the taper on the other side. I am guessing that instead of thrust straight out the back, it comes out at a slight angle. Should I point it up or down, or does it even matter. I know that the Fantastic Skyray wants some upthrust to fly, but I don't know if that is because of the large cheater hole in its belly... Thoughts? I used a tube from a toilet paper roll. It is a nice press fit that I have taped to the plastic.

AirX

Jul 28, 2005, 07:35 PM

The nano bandit has the outlet straight back, I have not built Doc's Mirage yet but it was designed to be straight out the back also as I do have the plans for it. Having a little up thrust wont hurt but not down thrust as it will definitely be a pitch problem.
Thrust angle is a problem as it can cause major trim problems. just find a large feild with tall grass and do soem chuck glider flying with it tll it is trimmed then you can as power and see the differences because you alwasy wnt the power off flying to be as benign as possible so gliding in will be simple as sometimes deadsticking it in is a possibility.

Cheers,

Eric B.

Trikster

Jul 29, 2005, 12:13 PM

I messed up my Mirage real good. I put two pieces on backwards and cannot make them "work" without sanding a lot of the two pieces (which have crazy gaps on the glued sides, which my tired mind thought odd...but didn't investigate why) that are backwards as well as the pieces that are next to it.

So, I will either have to build another one or something... I did run the fan up in the fuse and I think I had something tweaked there as well. It whistled really bad (air leak somewhere...) and the blown air didn't flow straight out the back.

DrZiplok

Jul 29, 2005, 12:25 PM

Throw it out and build another one. Depron is cheap, and frustration isn't worth it. Call it a learning experience - we all have them...

You should get two nanos out of a sheet, so you've got another one right there. 8)

= Mike

Trikster

Jul 29, 2005, 01:19 PM

That is what I am going to have to do. I noticed that the motor had about 5 degrees of upthrust and about 7 degrees of left... I now know not to build when taking my migraine meds. I noticed the problems, but didn't do anything about them. Oh well... I have already pulled everything out and junked the old fuse.

My problem now is this. I wont have anything to fly for at least two weaks as my folks are in town. Sigh...

power

Aug 01, 2005, 04:52 PM

If anyone is interested I am building another " Nano on steroids" using the original Mirage wing plan. This one has curves ;)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399547

Mike

speleopower

Aug 02, 2005, 09:18 PM

Here's my latest Nano. This is the first one I've tried since way back late last year. I did not have much luck with them back then.
This one is a "proto type" by one of the guys at MegaWattModels.com I've seen one like it fly and it flew very well. We've got some tall grass at our field for some hand launch flying.
I hope this one does better than my first few attempts.
Scott

IAD

Aug 04, 2005, 04:03 PM

Is there a set length for the tapered thrust tube on these things, or are the designed using the TLAR method? I'm guessing shorter is better, as long as there's still a relatively smooth transistion between the diameters..?

~Luke

AirX

Aug 04, 2005, 07:27 PM

Hi Luke,

Just like the inlet duct there is an optimum size of the outlet in area but it will change as length changes, I use 37mm(FSA) as outlet diameter and length will depend on the needs of the airframe adn balance point. As the duct gets longer then the opening will require a bit more space but not more than a millimeter or so. The outlet is less affected by boundary layer and more affected by drag and the small rotor. I have used outlet lengths of 7-8inches and the end result is a loss of 1oz of thrust, orrignal test on the stand without outlet duct gave me 6oz thrust, 7.4amps, 10.9volts, 81watts with the 25 turn motor. The 8inch outlet duct with an outlet of 37mm gave me 5oz thrust with the same motor, 7.5amps, 10.9 volts, 82watts.

Eric B.

IAD

Aug 04, 2005, 08:19 PM

So, by reducing the length of the thrust-tube as much as possible, within design (CG/airframe space) limitations would result in minimal thrust lost? (Again, nothing stupidly short. Say, 3-4", to taper down to 37mm?)

I'm doing CAD work on a design where I could mount the fan all the way back at the end of the ducting (think FTM F-86/MiG-15) if necessary, so...

~Luke

Trikster

Aug 04, 2005, 08:25 PM

Anyone want to trade a nearly new 5300kv for a 4100kv? I bought two of the 5300s, bench ran them both and need a 4100 for a different application. I would say it has less than a minute of time on it... (the lable cam off when I put a heatsink on it, so the lable is missing, it is a gen 2 5300...)

AirX

Aug 04, 2005, 08:30 PM

That is correct as long as you can make balance the shorter the better. I might add that it is more important to be short on the inlet end than the outlet end due to the inlet constraints we discussed earlier.

Eric B.

So, by reducing the length of the thrust-tube as much as possible, within design (CG/airframe space) limitations would result in minimal thrust lost? (Again, nothing stupidly short. Say, 3-4", to taper down to 37mm?)

I'm doing CAD work on a design where I could mount the fan all the way back at the end of the ducting (think FTM F-86/MiG-15) if necessary, so...

~Luke

IAD

Aug 04, 2005, 09:01 PM

Yes, the boundary-layer effects...

So, why is it that FTM (and many other EDF-50/40 designs I've seen) have you putting the fans at the very back? Is it a case of excess intake area, simulating a podded installation, like the Nanos?

~Luke

<<Edit>> Just added some CAD screenshots of what I'm working on. In your opinion, should I mount the fans somewhere near where the ducting starts to transition from the square cross-section, or should I just stick it near the end of the ducting, and open up cheater holes directly in front of the fan?

AirX

Aug 04, 2005, 09:20 PM

The EDF 50 needed to be at the rear of the duct because of poor performance and I guess they have stayed with what works for them but the EDF 40 is capable of more performance with equal motors due to the rotor and shroud setup. The EDF50 needed to use the 20mm motors for ultimate performance as the 12mm motors are overextended IMO in a 50mm fan. The intake area of the Nano Bandit and several of its children benefit from a lot of inlet area to feed the fan, when the aiflow has navigate a less than efficient inlet and a cheater hole then there cant be more efficient than a layout that allows best airflow to the fan face in most cases. BTW the FTM models are fine and work well for what you will pay for them, much better looking than the Nano stuff so far.

Eric B.

The long duct will have an effect on the ammount of available thrust, how much area at the inlet?

IAD

Aug 04, 2005, 09:46 PM

Yes, I was somewhat concerned about the length of the intake ducting.

I've got two sizes on the drawing board, one is 36" span, the other is 28.8" span.
The 36" version has 4"^2 per duct intake area at the face of the intake, and tapers down to 3"^2, as the duct feeds to an EDF-50...

The 28.8" version has 2.6"^2 per inlet, tapering down to feed an EDF-40.

(I'm having a hard time figuring out which one I'm actually going to build... If one of them looks less feasible than the other, feel free to mention it..!)

~Luke

AirX

Aug 04, 2005, 10:00 PM

The 2.6"^2 is good but it would not hurt to put the fan at the change of shape (square to round) if it is possible to do so. For my money I would go the EDF 40 and the Feigao 5800(25turn) on 3s batts that will at least keep up with 15amps total in the 28.8inch version.

Cheers,

Eric B.

IAD

Aug 04, 2005, 10:21 PM

Relocating the fans wouldn't be a problem... Should I just bulkhead-mount the EDF-40 inside, sort of Nano-style?

What about a pair of the 28 turn motors, and a 3s 1250 mAH 10C E-Tec pack?
Highly reduced probability of success, or..? (I'm guessing I could get the ship in at an AUW of ~12 oz., at the 28.8" span.) At that size, I've got about 200"^2 of wing, including the area between the nacelles.

~Luke

AirX

Aug 04, 2005, 10:30 PM

If there is enough room the bulhead will be the easiest and use another to control your thrust line of the outlet too.
The 5300 will be IIRC 1oz less in thrust and less of everything to the tune of 5.5-6amps on 3s so it could be a smaller battery/lighter weight. the Nano's are runing 80in^2 wing for the EDF40 variant, so your ok should be light wing loading for sure.

Cheers,

Eric B.

rysium

Aug 05, 2005, 12:19 AM

Anyone want to trade a nearly new 5300kv for a 4100kv?
I think I have one - it is 1208436 I picked from RC-Country the other day. I didn't know it was a low Kv at that time. I had to use 5 LiPo to get a decent rpm. It is also like new -hardly used (maybe total 10 minutes).

I can trade you for higher Kv Feiago for DF experiments. As we are both in Sacramento area we can do it easy (no shipping required :) )

RysiuM

IAD

Aug 05, 2005, 07:57 AM

Yes, ~4.3 oz. of thrust per fan when installed in a Nano, each drawing 5.6A on 3s. A couple of those would be inside the max. discharge capabilities of the E-Tec pack.

I just checked the ducting, though... I can't fit the fan unit at at the square cross-section location. It would fit a few inches further back.

Thanks for the advice!

~Luke

AirX

Aug 05, 2005, 10:22 AM

Luke,

Good luck

Eric B.

rcguy01

Aug 05, 2005, 01:38 PM

[QUOTE=AirX] The EDF50 needed to use the 20mm motors for ultimate performance as the 12mm motors are overextended IMO in a 50mm fan.

Eric B.

[QUOTE]
:eek:

there are many guys out there use the 12mm feigao or 12mm medusa
with the EDF 50s on their GWS A10. Do a search and learn from
their success then... very successful set up indeed.

The fact is with EDF 50s and 12mm motors (regardless the brand)
the GWS A10 transformed from an authentic big loser with stock IPS motor
to a pretty big winner with more than 1:1 thrust/weigh ratio.
One of the best power set up using 12mm motor/ EDF 50 on the GWS A10s

:cool: :cool:

Here is the thread about that very best set up on the A10
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392518&highlight=GWS+A10+

:eek:

AirX

Aug 05, 2005, 07:38 PM

[QUOTE=AirX] The EDF50 needed to use the 20mm motors for ultimate performance as the 12mm motors are overextended IMO in a 50mm fan.

Eric B.

:eek:

there are many guys out there use the 12mm feigao or 12mm medusa
with the EDF 50s on their GWS A10. Do a search and learn from
their success then... very successful set up indeed.

The fact is with EDF 50s and 12mm motors (regardless the brand)
the GWS A10 transformed from an authentic big loser with stock IPS motor
to a pretty big winner with more than 1:1 thrust/weigh ratio.
One of the best power set up using 12mm motor/ EDF 50 on the GWS A10s

:cool: :cool:

Here is the thread about that very best set up on the A10
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392518&highlight=GWS+A10+

:eek:

Well since you want to challenge me on what I am stating, let me give you a little idea of what you are asking for. The 50mm fans are not limited to just the GWS, but we will start with them. The GWS 50 is a very minimal fan when set up with the 3 blade rotor it will produce a little less than 3oz in its stock form, with the Feigao it will produce 5.9oz thrust, 6amps, 65watts on 3s with the 28turn motor(5300kv), the motor at best efficiency is probably arround 70% in this application so the waste energy will be equal to 24watts. The EDF 40 with the same setup will produce 5.4oz thrust drawing 6.2amps, 68watts, the motor at best efficiency is probably arround 79% in this application so the waste energy will be equal to 20watts. not much differnece between the two and the reason is the minimal rotor on the 50. When using the 5 blade rotor the performance data runs out at 6.1oz thrust, 6.5amps, 70watts, the waste energy will run 25watts and this is because the load of the 5 blade rotor will not let the motor rev drawing only slightly more power than the 3 blade rotor. The fan efficiency is up but the load varies just a little due to effects of that efficiency. Now this leads to what fan is best suited to the 12mm motor, the 40 is best because it is more efficient in moving air than the 50. Now also to put into context my statement on 20mm motors, the large motor will have much greater mechanical efficiency in spinning the rotor than the 12mm due to the difference in diameter and the face area of the rotors inside the motor. To drive home the point, the Wemotec microfan takes full advantage of this with a blade density which will let it absorb more power and the ability to mount up to 24mm diameter motors and this is where my statement came from.

Now what experience do you have with any of this?

Eric B.

rysium

Aug 05, 2005, 09:15 PM

Anyone want to trade a nearly new 5300kv for a 4100kv?

We did a trade, and this motor is bad ass :D I'm back to DF nano jet. I still have my old one that didn't want to roll. I don't want to make one as this is still in great condition. It just needs ailerons. So here is my question.

Right now I have standard stup with one servo on each elevon (elevator halves). Can I connect the same servo to the aileron on the same side? What I mean if in example left elevator goes up, the left aileron will go up too. This setup will make both ailerons go up together with both elevator halves. Will it fly like that?

RysiuM

AirX

Aug 05, 2005, 09:18 PM

Should work just like the Wattage jets. Will roll like a corkscrew though with enough movement.

Cheers,

Eric B.

meteor

Aug 05, 2005, 09:37 PM

Can I connect the same servo to the aileron on the same side?

RysiuM

You betcha! We modded this design to get rid of the flaky fully-flying stabs. :)

see: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243669

Video may not be on my server, it is also on the Aircraft-world site, look under the Warp 4 motor data sheet.

Fun!

roccobro

Aug 05, 2005, 11:03 PM

Good explaination Eric. I was trying to get the guys over in the Alfa F-86 thread to understand the mechanical advantage of larger diam motors in their fan units.

Justin

rysium

Aug 06, 2005, 01:44 AM

You betcha! We modded this design to get rid of the flaky fully-flying stabs. :)

Thanks,

I cut ailerons, moved the servos to the front (next to air intakes) and run two pushrods from each servo arm. I hope it will fly. I may need to do some mechanical addjustments for how much aileron for elevator and that would be the zero on ailerons when elevator is on zero. But I will never guess right untill I try to fly it.

As a starting point I wil have the same movement on the ailerons as elevators and when ailerons are leveled elevator will be a little up (like it was trimmed for the previous flights)

BTW my depron duckt weights 5 grams. I cut a paper one, but it was 4 grams and kind of flimsy.
RysiuM

Trikster

Aug 08, 2005, 03:44 PM

Anyone done any testing on the EDF40 with only three blades instead of 6? I ask as I was pulling the rotor off to screw the motor screws tighter (the plastic expanded some in the heat and loosened the screws just a tad) and broke one of the blades. I took off alternating blades and fired it up on the motor. Seems to get more RPM and seems to flow about the same amount of air. I don't have a test stand or anything like that, so I really cannot say with any certainty that it is better/worse. One thing I can attest to (which seems only logical in my mind) is that the motor I am using didn't get hot at all like my Feigao did.

I am using the AON 5000kv motor in the EDF40 housing. The motor is lighter than the Feigao and seems to put out about as much power as the Feigao, but at lesser amp draw. The TP 3s 730s would get warm on the Feigao, but stay cool with the AON. The AON is rated at less kv, but seems to pull as hard. If anyone is local to me with a decent test stand, I would love to find out for sure.

Fishnut

Aug 08, 2005, 04:32 PM

Anyone done any testing on the EDF40 with only three blades instead of 6?

I've tested both, and found more blades = more thrust--and amps. I can't speak for efflux velocity though.

Good luck,

Kurt

AirX

Aug 08, 2005, 07:23 PM

Trikster

Aug 08, 2005, 08:05 PM

Yup blade density will up the watts, if the motor will carry it it makes little sense to just chop up a rotor but if it brakes on ya then why not... :)

It will still work but will suffer with a little loss overall in thrust as effciency drops when blade desnsity goes down, less blade area less air moved in low airspeed situations where the fan needs to accelerate the airframe. In other words drawing air through a long duct is where it will suffer.

Eric B.
Gotcha. So if I were to use it in a ship, I would basically have to keep my speed up and think further in advance to keep up with the lack of instant power (as much as you can get in an EDF anyway)... Might be worth a try on an airframe that glides well unpowered... Might make a trade-off...

AirX

Aug 08, 2005, 09:55 PM

The hand launch would be weak but usable as most of the nano planes have enough inlet area to service the fan. Since the rotor will present less drag you might gain some rpm and a little higher efflux speed. Calculating this reliably would need some feed back on the load the fan would provide. Somewhere in the middle of the thread Devmonkey designed a 3 blade rotor to mill on his 3D router but I dont know if he has done anything with it. Larger blades and more aggressive pitch could make a nice little rotor for high performance in this size for sure.

Eric B.

Cheers

speleopower

Sep 25, 2005, 07:42 PM

A few posts ago (see post 2423) I posted a picture of a model I recived from the guys at MegaWattModels.com I do not know where their website went off to but I was finally able to get the little Nano Mig flying.
This little jet generated a bit of interest at the event.
The biggest plus of this model is it hand launches very easily with an underhand toss.

It flew great after a couple slight bashes. I posted a very short video in my gallery of it flying this weekend at Morriston Florida during an electric fly event. I had to make the quality of the rendered video high. Meaning the size of the file is about 1 meg. A lower quality video and you would not be able to see the jet fly.

See ya-Scott

Tres Wright

Sep 26, 2005, 11:14 AM

Good grief, I'm gone for a few months and come back to find this thead approaching 100 pages!! Wow!

This may be old news to you guys, but I ordered a couple of 3s 730 TP packs to replace my sagging packs. My nanos have really killed the 730's, but there's nothing else out there that can do the job in that weight range. Anyway, my packs arrived and I was surprised to see that TP has a new generation of packs out. The green stripe 730 is rated at 13c cont/ 20c burst (9.5a/ 15a) compared to 10c/ 16c (7a/ 12a) on the yellow stripe pack. I think these will hold up a lot better to the load than the yellow stripe packs.

If anyone is planning on attending DEAF this weekend, I'll be there with my nano Mirage and at least one Stealth-E (trying to finish a second as well). Stop by and say hello :)

RoyEOetting

Sep 26, 2005, 12:54 PM

Tres, mine are holding up quite well and i've got a lot of cycles on them. I had trouble with packs pillowing up on me before I changed chargers. I did wipe one out recently.
I was flying in windy conditions and I was just happy to get inside and I forgot to unplug the pack. I didn't discover it was not disconected until the next day.
Have fun,
Roy

Tres Wright

Sep 27, 2005, 05:25 PM

That's interesting. Mine didn't balloon up, they just slowly lost power over many flights. I didn't really notice it until I bought a 3rd 730 pack and it was notably stronger than the other two which were 6 months old at that point. I ran them all up on the Whattmeter and the old packs were down significantly, and interestingly enough by about the same amount across both old packs. The packs continued to slide downward and are now at the point where I get about 1/3 the run time I once did.

I have several chargers and use them on many packs. I have had no trouble with my 480s, 1200's, 1320's, 2100's, or even my older 3s2p 145's. The problem is limited strictly to the 730 packs. I fly them in my nanos as well as a few other planes. Some of the other planes draw more amps, but for only short bursts. The nanos draw hard from start to finish, that's why I think the nanos are what are killing my 730 packs.

This may also have something to do with the climate, it's really hot here for much of the year. The packs are only warm after a flight, but the high draw plus the temp's may be taking their toll over a year's time. Hopefully the green stripe packs will do better :)

Tres Wright

Oct 12, 2005, 01:33 PM

This thread seems to have stalled, so let me post a couple of pics to see if we can get it going again :)

First up is a very cool little nano by Tom (ThomasB). I snapped this pic at DEAF a couple of weekends ago. I don't know the exact spec's, but it's about the size of the nano Bandit and is powered by the 5800 kv Feigao/ EDF40 combo. It flew great!! Has a very broad speed range, is very zippy but will also slow down to a crawl. And it looks fantastic too. This is a prototype, Tom may be selling these in a few months. It is on the top of my must-have list.

Next is my 2nd Stealth-E build, you may have seen this in the Stealth-E thread already. This one is running a 5800 kv motor, it's a lot quicker than the first Stealth-E. I had hoped the covering scheme would be more visible than the all-black of the first, but surprisingly the silver on bottom turns almost transparent with the sun shining through and the bottom looks like the top! The tail helps with orientation though.

Thomas B

Oct 12, 2005, 01:47 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Tres...we missed ya at BEST!

Tres Wright

Oct 12, 2005, 01:51 PM

Hey Tom, it killed me not to be able to go! I thought work would leave me alone for a while, but it reared its ugly head again ;) I'm planning on going to the Market Hall deal this weekend, maybe I'll see you there?

speleopower

Oct 12, 2005, 02:23 PM

I lost my little nano Mig the other day. It got a bit far out and I lost orientation. It kept going and I just lost it. It crashed somewhere out in an overgrown sod farm. The underbrush is up to about chest high. Someone also lost a 48" or so .40 sized plane out in the high grass. A few people went looking for the two airplanes and did not find anything.

See ya-Scott

rysium

Oct 12, 2005, 03:13 PM

This thread seems to have stalled,

I guess I forgot to report my little experiment. I had ailerons and ailevator (kind of funy as right aileron was on the same servo as right elevator (both going up and down at the same time). With this setup I had enough roll authority to fight any bad habbits of this plane.

After adjusting throws and relative positions bandit finaslly flew. It was fast, true, but this was the only way it could fly. A little less than full throttle and the thing hardly responded to any sticks. I measured static thrust of my fan and it was 4.5oz (at 5oz plane).

Flying full throttle was the constant fight to keep it level. The plane just wanted to roll right or left - forget hands-off flying. Going acros the wind the only way to fly it level was knife edge.

This was the worst flying aircraft I ever tried. It 'was' because after couple 'flights-fights' I decided to keep it on the shelf till the next meeting only to show my buddies 'the thing that doesn't fly' :) After the meeting the plane was converted to 'spare parts' and some material for landfill.

It was my first DF plane, and I think it will be the last (at least for some time). My little Fiago will find a place either in some little racer or in the gearbox.

No, I'm not frustrated, nor disapointed. If was a fun and pleasure to try something different. Maybe if I have more time I would make it. Unfortunately pile of projects waiting for me is bigger than I can handle now.

RysiuM

devmonkey

Oct 12, 2005, 03:19 PM

This thread seems to have stalled, so let me post a couple of pics to see if we can get it going again :)

New built up balsa nano coming along, just finishing up the cad. Got a bit of a sniper look to it, span 17", edf40 of course. May even make mill a plug and make some fibreglass fuselages.

Joe

roccobro

Oct 12, 2005, 03:49 PM

Tom, you still have a waiting list going for when your finally done with the prototype and start production? Sweet looking bird. Been waiting a while, but will wait some more! :D

Justin

King_Ice_Flash

Oct 12, 2005, 04:06 PM

Im thinking about building the Bandit for the Microfan. I didn't see another thread about it, but I am putting retracts on it. I was wondering about the difference between the fiberglass (Fibreglass for you English English folk) and the steel. Obviously the steel is going to be heavier, but is the fiberglass as durrable? Do they flex more?

Obviously the $1 difference between the 2 sets is irrelevent.

And should I get the blue (Micro) or the black (Pico) retracts.

And the final question, what were you guys using for the nose wheel. I can only find the GWS retracts in the sets of 2 for the main gear.

roccobro

Oct 12, 2005, 04:23 PM

I think POWER did a nanobandit with the microfan. He said he enjoyed it's slightly heavier AUW as it penetrated the wind better. I think he started a thread for just it.

Justin

Ralph Brekan

Oct 12, 2005, 05:00 PM

I was considering a Bandit for the WPF. But time and money are absent in my lufe these days... :rolleyes:

empeabee

Oct 13, 2005, 06:13 AM

JREEVES

Oct 14, 2005, 10:00 AM

I think POWER did a nanobandit with the microfan. He said he enjoyed it's slightly heavier AUW as it penetrated the wind better. I think he started a thread for just it.

Justin

Power did a NanoMirage for Wemo Micro, here...
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360873

rdeis

Oct 14, 2005, 12:46 PM

And the final question, what were you guys using for the nose wheel. I can only find the GWS retracts in the sets of 2 for the main gear.

The wattage nose wheel is similar to the GWS black mains.

devmonkey

Oct 15, 2005, 12:49 PM

Finished the cad model. Probably going to mill a plug for this one. Model is 17" span.

AirX

Oct 15, 2005, 01:30 PM

Looks great Joe, will be looking to your report for more infromation... :)
Did you ever go with the rotor design you were working on?

Eric B.

like2fly!

Oct 15, 2005, 01:31 PM

Joe, looks very nice!

how much thrust are you getting out of edf 40 now?

Alex

devmonkey

Oct 15, 2005, 02:52 PM

I never went any further with the rotor. I do have a design for a new edf40 motor though. This model will get a feigao 5800 to start with.

160g static last time i checked.

Cheers

Joe

AirX

Oct 15, 2005, 03:03 PM

Thanks for the update adn good luck with the motor.

Eric B.

power

Oct 16, 2005, 06:44 AM

Finished the cad model. Probably going to mill a plug for this one. Model is 17" span.

My, does that little bugger look slippery :cool: very nice, I like it! I agree it does kinda have that Sniper thing going on.

Mike

speleopower

Oct 16, 2005, 07:35 PM

I cut a new set of foam to replace the Nano-Mig I lost the other day, plus I broke out the credit card to replace all the electronics......What a bummer. These things are small but boy are they expensive for their size. It is pushing $200!

I do have a video posted in my Gallery of my Nano Mig flying.

See ya-Scott

IAD

Oct 19, 2005, 09:57 AM

Quick question: What gauge wire are you guys using to feed the Feigao 5300 k/V motors? I have a couple CoolRunning 10A ESCs, and I must say I think the wire is somewhat excessive... (Heavy, to boot.)

Also, how many of you fair the wires where they run across the duct and/or use a motor cone? Is there a significant gain in thrust/eflux velocity with the addition of the above?

Thanks!

~Luke

King_Ice_Flash

Oct 19, 2005, 10:08 AM

I am running a Castle Creations PHX-10 to a 3 pin micro Deans connector to the stator wires on the motor. I tried making a cone for around the motor, but you gain more weight and heating problems then you gain from thrust. The thrust only went up like .1 oz, but since I am using a scale that is incrimented by .1 oz, it could be less or more.

Not sure what gauge the wire is, but I can look.

On a larger fan, like 24MM or larger, I would consider making the cone trailing the motor, but not on anything less.

Tres Wright

Oct 19, 2005, 11:03 AM

==The thrust only went up like .1 oz, but since I am using a scale that is incrimented by .1 oz, it could be less or more.==

You don't gain any static thrust with a cone, you gain efflux velocity which should increase top speed. I've been meaning to do a head-to-head speed check on Stealth-E with and without cone, but haven't had a chance to. I've got one Steath-E running a 6300 without cone, it's been clocked at 60. One of these days I'll toss a cone on it and see if it helps. I've got another with a cone that's faster, but it's also running the 6800 motor.

==how many of you fair the wires where they run across the duct==

I haven't done it on any of mine.

Tres Wright

Oct 19, 2005, 11:06 AM

PS, Scott, nice nano. Sorry to hear it flew off! :(

IAD

Oct 19, 2005, 11:26 AM

Thanks guys! Sounds like I don't need to mess about with wire fairings, at least. (~Phew~)

Just for reference, would you say the wire leads on the Feigaos are sufficient gauge for the application? (I'd be adding another couple inches of similar wire, replacing the heavy stuff the ESCs came with.)

~Luke

King_Ice_Flash

Oct 19, 2005, 11:59 AM

You don't gain any static thrust with a cone, you gain efflux velocity which should increase top speed.

I would have thought that a more efficient air flow would also increase static thrust.

Tres Wright

Oct 19, 2005, 02:30 PM

==Just for reference, would you say the wire leads on the Feigaos are sufficient gauge for the application? (I'd be adding another couple inches of similar wire, replacing the heavy stuff the ESCs came with.)==

Oh sorry, forgot to answer that part. I use PH10 ESCs on all my nanos, and the wire gauge between the ESC and battery connector is amazingly small. Seems to work fine though. They're about the same diameter as the Feigao leads.

==I would have thought that a more efficient air flow would also increase static thrust.==

I ran thrust stand tests and actually the static thrust went down a tiny bit with the addition of a cone. One of the jet-heads said that was normal and offered an explanation for why it increases top speed but decreases static thrust. I won't do him the indignity of trying to repeat it from my jet-tech-challenged memory ;)

roccobro

Oct 19, 2005, 04:36 PM

Are the "large" wires on the battery side of the ESC, or the motor sid? The motor side doe not need to be as big as the batts, as it is now a 3 phase and uses less current than a DC setup. Think of it like this, the wires are splitting the load and only seeing 2/3 the work the batt wires are.

The exhaust taper does two things. One it reclaims the velocity of the air as it goes around the motor by matching the fan swept area (if exhaust diam is 100% FSA) Second, if the taper goes down more (to max ~80% FSA) you will be trading efflux (airspeed) for static thrust. The restriction (not compression) of the exhaust flow create a higher static load on the motor but higher air exit velocity, thus a potentially greater top speed in the air (if the airframe allows). AirX reminded me the proper physics name, "Conservation of Mass". :)

Justin

IAD

Oct 19, 2005, 08:50 PM

Yes, I'm only going to work on the motor side of things... The battery wires aren't as annoying... Though, I could probably even take those down a size or so without encountering any problems. (Very thick wires there, as well.)

Thanks for the input, sounds like I have some soldering to do. ;)

~Luke

SoarNeck

Oct 21, 2005, 11:04 AM

Hi folks,

Wanted to say that this thread is really great...I like this size of model! The performance that's possible on an affordable power system is impressive.

I'd like to try one of these, and while I'm sure the Nanobandit flies great, I was really taken by the Tigershark that was mentioned earlier (much earlier :cool: ) in this thread. I didn't notice plans posted anywhere, so I drew some up myself (outlines only right now).

I designed the intake area to be 110% of FSA, and the exhaust to be 80%. Does that sound about right? This would be my first ducted fan, but not my first model by any means. Kept the same wing area as the Nanobandit, so I'm hoping that the wingloading should be similar.

I'd like to order some gear for it today, so could someone please confirm that the 5300rpm/v Feigao motor is still the one to buy? (ie):

http://www.zebrahobby.ca/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F2417993&rnd=1648700&rrc=N&affl=&cip=142.59.150.130&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=FeigaoIPS5300&cat=FeigaoIPS&catstr=HOME:motorsbrushless:FeigaoIPS

Other than that, the plan was MX30 servos, an Apogee 3S 830 pack, a Phx10 and a Shadow RX. Sound good?

Does anyone have an archived copy of the Nanobandit video, BTW? I'd really like to see it, and posting to the RCGroups gallery would probably be appreciated by lots of people :)

Thanks for any help!

Tres Wright

Oct 21, 2005, 11:31 AM

==I'd like to order some gear for it today, so could someone please confirm that the 5300rpm/v Feigao motor is still the one to buy?==

Either that one or the 5800. The 5800 shouldn't be run at WOT for the whole flight because it'll push the batt's pretty hard, but it certainly has more power on tap than the 5300. If you're prone to only pushing the go-stick from one end to the other and back again, you might want to go with the 5300 ;) Nice work on the Tigershark plans!

SoarNeck

Oct 21, 2005, 12:02 PM

Either that one or the 5800. The 5800 shouldn't be run at WOT for the whole flight because it'll push the batt's pretty hard, but it certainly has more power on tap than the 5300. If you're prone to only pushing the go-stick from one end to the other and back again, you might want to go with the 5300 ;) Nice work on the Tigershark plans!

Thanks, the Tigershark lends itself to simplified lines pretty well. I'd been toying with molding some intake ducting using a simple mold and some kevlar cloth (probably some carbon tow to avoid pucking the ducting under suction). Would it be worth bothering to do this?

I just noticed that option 5800. Would the fact that I'm at 3500ft ASL make a difference? What altitude are you folks flying at. I don't know if fans suffer from altitude affects like larger props, but I'd guess that they do.

I don't mind having to throttle down every now and then...I typically fly F5B sailplanes, so having any sort of throttle is a bonus :)

rysium

Oct 21, 2005, 03:22 PM

Hi folks,
http://www.zebrahobby.ca/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F2417993&rnd=1648700&rrc=N&affl=&cip=142.59.150.130&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=FeigaoIPS5300&cat=FeigaoIPS&catstr=HOME:motorsbrushless:FeigaoIPS

Yu may look for aeromicro http://www.aeromicro.com/Catalog/brushless_motors_107406_products.htm they have all kind of Feiago there. Price is right too.

RysiuM

Edit:Oops.. You are in Canada, sorry. I found Aeromicro doesn't ship international.

SoarNeck

Oct 21, 2005, 03:32 PM

Yu may look for aeromicro http://www.aeromicro.com/Catalog/brushless_motors_107406_products.htm they have all kind of Feiago there. Price is right too.

RysiuM

Edit:Oops.. You are in Canada, sorry. I found Aeromicro doesn't ship international.

Thanks for that, but I'm happy with Zebra and their prices. Remember when you look on that website that the prices are in Canadian $, not US.

Decided to go with the 5800, and I'll see how things go.

rysium

Oct 21, 2005, 04:11 PM

Thanks for that, but I'm happy with Zebra and their prices. Remember when you look on that website that the prices are in Canadian $, not US.

Right, converting to USD it is 37.5 - quite reasonable, but for you it has major benefit: they are local :)

Decided to go with the 5800, and I'll see how things go.

Like Tres Wright wrote - watch your amps. My 5300 takes almost 6A at 3 cells on EDF-40. It is quite on the limit for this motor.

Add GWS heat sink - for sure it will help to keep it cooler.

RysiuM

speleopower

Oct 21, 2005, 06:21 PM

AirX

Oct 21, 2005, 06:36 PM

I use my 5300 on 3s in the EDF40 with absolutely no problems and it does not need a heatsink, the 5800 does in the warmer climates. Just to give you an idea of how much heat the motor can take:

The magnets are rated to 180*C, the windings are rated to near the same temperature and the rotor will only take 100*C before coming off the shaft, it actually will tell you that you are running too hot before you hurt the motor.

Eric B.

IAD

Oct 21, 2005, 06:50 PM

So I could save few grams by leaving the heatsinks off the 5300s, eh? That's nice to know.

~Luke

AirX

Oct 21, 2005, 07:29 PM

Hi Luke,

That is correct, but if your in 98* weather you might get to the point where the rotor comes off(worst case). The 5800 makes only slightly more waste heat(13 watts for the 5300, 15 watts for the 5800). This is why in a gearbox installation where there is not as much airflow arround the motor it has problems but the fan is different as there is lots of airflow arround the motor unless you put some sort of cone after the motor and inhibit that flow.

Eric B.

rysium

Oct 21, 2005, 07:34 PM

That is correct, but if your in 98* weather you might get to the point where the rotor comes off(worst case).

Thanks, great explanation :) here in the summer time over 100F is not a news. I fried a couple Neo N50 magnets just by flying in the sun :confused: No big deal for CD-ROM motors, hut I would better keep my kest sink on Fiago, just in case.

RysiuM

AirX

Oct 21, 2005, 08:10 PM

Hi Rysium,

Same here in Houston, I think the battery suffers the most in the middle of summer more than the motor in a fan installation. Keven64 had a problem with the EDF50 and the 5800, goes almost 3 minutes and spits the rotor no matter what you use to hold it on(CA, Epoxy etc.). I did some research and found that ABS will start to extrude at 80*C and so the rotor will come off as the plastic comes over that temeprature. So we worked on an adapter but the EDF 40 does not present the load on the motor than the EDF50 does(3 or 5 bladed rotor). Using the sink wont hurt it for sure.

Cheers,

Eric B.

Tres Wright

Oct 21, 2005, 09:16 PM

==watch your amps. My 5300 takes almost 6A at 3 cells on EDF-40. It is quite on the limit for this motor. ==

Your packs must be stronger than mine. I'm running 3s 730's and have tested 5.4 amps, @ 57 watts on the 5300. The 5800 pulls 6.8 amps @ 68 watts. Are you running 830's maybe? I've been flying mostly at just over half throttle on the 5800 with sporatic 3/4 and full throttle runs. The motor has been cool to the touch after landing. I am running a heat sink on it though.

AirX

Oct 21, 2005, 09:40 PM

PQ 850's and your right I dont stay in the throttle all the time either. My last check on the watt meter gave me 10.9volts, 6.3amps, 68watts after one minute. The 5800 was similar 10.8 volts, 7.4amps, 80watts and this was on a Kokam 1500 3s pack after one minute and that battery weighs 1 more ounce.

Eric B.

SoarNeck

Oct 22, 2005, 12:52 AM

Great looking Tiger Shark! I downloaded the plans and may do a cut this weekend. I'm tired of endless sanding on my big scale glider fuselage!!! I think I gave myself a bad case of sanding wrist.

See ya-Scott

Careful, they aren't scaled to anything in particular right now (that was just an image). After I tweak them a bit (redo the intakes and thickness of nose) I'll print a proper version.

What, may I ask, are you building? I'm putting off doing a 5m Ventus and finishing a 4m MPX DG300 Acro, so this seemed like a nice way to do something completely different :)