Depron Flat Plate Arrow

[byrocat]

Haven't given up on the all-balsa flat plate version of the Arrow.... yet.

However, having seen the design for the F-18 park flyer with Depron (going to be ordering a kit), I've decided to start on the Depron Arrow, utilizing the concepts from the F-18. Lots of good ideas on that thread.

I started by taking one of my plansets for the Arrow (1/25th scale) that I'd used for the orgininal balsa version and looked at where I'd made some mistakes in scale and size.

I then set up my Mastercraft vibrating scrollsaw and set up the blade so I was cutting across the throat rather than the tradition "into". I then clamped a board two inches back from the blade. I then passed the sheet lengthways through the saw and got five identical strips.

Two have since been trimmed to give me the basic fuselage shape from the intakes back to the nozzles. I then trimmed 1/4-inch triangle stock to run from station 255 on back.

Photos to follow once I get my batteries back into the camera.

Hope that everyone in the GWN has a safe and blessed Thanksgiving!

[byrocat]

Scrool saw set up for cutting 2" slices to fuselage sides, and the sides of the fuselage with 1/4 triangle stock added, plus the template from the plans.

[Mark DiMonte]

Excellent Byrocat. I too have started a depron Avro arrow. I took my .45 size gas pusher plans and scaled them down to a 24" size wingspan. I used the outlines to create templates and have this so far.

[byrocat]

Specifically: motor, battery, servoes, propellor?

[Mark DiMonte]

I am going to try a bunch of stuff. Starting off with gws 350 with d gearing, with a prop set to match. Two cell and three cel tp lipos. Two hs 55 servos with a rudder servo to come once delta-wing flying is done. Hitec feather lite receiver. I will try first with a simple two servo delta-wing mixing then try and add a rudder if the wing loading is OK. I am not sure of the weight so far but I think it will go. ( feels right )

[Tony65x55]

I would be very interested in seeing the continuation of this thread. It will primarily be a Canadiana thing as I wouldn't think the rest of the world knows about the hottest fighter of the 50s and 60s. Our government may have let it die but the Arrow will live on in the hearts of Canadian aviation buffs as a shining example of "what could have been".

I have been toying with the idea of making a fan fold Arrow for quite some time. I would be very interested in a copy of your plans if you are willing to share them.

Tony

[David Winter]

I've just finished the drawings for an EDF Arrow myself. I think it's going to be a balsa built up from frames type with foam wings. I was thinking of balsa skin but thought maybe dopped tissue would sufice....anyway.. there are several Arrows in various stages of planning/construction on this site.

[Mark DiMonte]

Getting closer to a finnished product. AUW is 11.2 oz. with a two cell 2100mah lipo. Not bad EH. Motor and prop put out 16oz. Shoudld fly well. Test glide last night was straight and true. I will post the plans and specs once test flights are complete.

[Mark DiMonte]

Did some more work.

[David Winter]

Are you running your RX battery off of the main motor battery or are you using two sets of batteries. One for the motor, one for the RX?

[Mark DiMonte]

I am using one bat and a speed control that has a bec and an automatic cut off point for two and three cell lipos.

[Mark DiMonte]

Well , I test flew my Arrow at 11.2 oz with a thenderpower 2100 2 cell lipo. Once I got the cg forward enough (a lot of unplanned hovering ) it flew great. Very roll sensetive but will dial in some exponential on the next flight.

[byrocat]

Well , I test flew my Arrow at 11.2 oz with a thenderpower 2100 2 cell lipo. Once I got the cg forward enough (a lot of unplanned hovering ) it flew great. Very roll sensetive but will dial in some exponential on the next flight.

That's what I'd been lead to believe from a conversation with Jack Humphries and the Speed 400 version that he'd flown.

So, you're using the GWS 350 combination of gears and prop that's being used for the F-18 or is it something different (if so, what is it)?


So you're flying at the 19th Sideroad field?

When I go to test-glide the all-balsa version, I'm going to use the tall hill to the east of the Aurora field at the town's farmstead. The one with the big "please develop me" sign right by the 404 at the Aurora/Ballentrie exit.

It's two mistakes and an oh-shoot high.

[Mark DiMonte]

The equiptmant I am using is a gws 350 with c gearing and a 9/7 slowfly prop. I got this motor from parkermodels at the Whitby show and it has been retimed for 3dx type tractor planes. I will retime it by rotating the endbell for a pusher configuration and see how it goes. I was getting about 16 oz. of thrust with it prior to using it backwards so I will shoot for that number when it is retimed. I will also experiment with smaller props to get the speed up and the torque down. In a severely stalled situation, the plane rolls quite violently in the opposite dirrection of the prop. I have not yet flown at the 19 th sideroad, I flew at the resivoir at 14th and Kennedy. It too has a tall hill that you could test glide from.

[byrocat]

The equiptmant I am using is a gws 350 with c gearing and a 9/7 slowfly prop. I got this motor from parkermodels at the Whitby show and it has been retimed for 3dx type tractor planes. I will retime it by rotating the endbell for a pusher configuration and see how it goes. I was getting about 16 oz. of thrust with it prior to using it backwards so I will shoot for that number when it is retimed. I will also experiment with smaller props to get the speed up and the torque down. In a severely stalled situation, the plane rolls quite violently in the opposite dirrection of the prop. I have not yet flown at the 19 th sideroad, I flew at the resivoir at 14th and Kennedy. It too has a tall hill that you could test glide from.

Are you doing anythign to get the motor to run backwards or did you just install the prop backwards?

14th and Kennedy -- isn't that close to the new EMFSO field? http://www.emfso.org/temac/ They're at Kennedy and Stouffville, which is getting pretty close for MAAC's club seperation limits (5KM I believe)

[Mark DiMonte]

What I did was reverse the polarity on the motor by switching the pos. and neg. wires on the back of the motor. You can then use the props mounted backwards on the gear drive and they work much more efficiently. You may end up having to retime the motor by rotating the the backplate. This may get you some more RPM and amp draw. Stouffville rd. is much more than 5 kms north of 14th so there should be no problems at both fields. MAD out.

[CRASH GORDON]

im thinking,,,,,,,,cant wait for plans,,,,,,,,,video would be awesome.

[Mark DiMonte]

I will post the plans as soon as I can. Work keeps getting in the way.

[byrocat]

What I did was reverse the polarity on the motor by switching the pos. and neg. wires on the back of the motor. You can then use the props mounted backwards on the gear drive and they work much more efficiently. You may end up having to retime the motor by rotating the the backplate. This may get you some more RPM and amp draw. Stouffville rd. is much more than 5 kms north of 14th so there should be no problems at both fields. MAD out.

Thanks for the info...

I did drop by the field on Saturday before the storm rolled in. Quite a field. Yes, did have a bit of a brian-burp on where 14th was and thought that it was south af Major Mack (actually 16th), the new bridge is 19th.

[Mark DiMonte]

Test flew again last night and experimented with a few cg's. Encountered a problem with turning right. The plane would turn left and roll left beautifully but struggled to turn right. I allmost lost it a coupple of times. I have differential dialed in on the delta wing program but still struggling. I will increase the throw of the right elevon to see if this helps but I think it is more a funtion of adverse torque due to the size of the propeller (9/7 gws).
I will re-gear for a smaller propeller and see if that helps. All in all, I was very pleased with its flight characteristics. Slows down quite well for landing and flies very groovy. I will try and get some video of the next flight.

[Mark DiMonte]

Still working on the plan. This is the unofficial release (tiny) but I will get to it. CG and some other stuff still needed. MAD out.

[CRASH GORDON]

hey,MAD,,it looks very prommising, i have total faith in ya. YAHOOOOOOOO

[byrocat]

I got the fuselage bse in and set up the motor mount using a GWS 350/G motor/gearing.

I've also set up the forward fuselage a la F-18 parkflyer and ran off a nose section.

I'm looking at doing the cf tube for the wing next but the 0.21-inch cf tube is exactly the thickness of the 5mm sheet, so I'm either going to ahve to go to a thinner tube (.15-inch?) or to a solid rod.

Comments and suggestions?

[Mark DiMonte]

Looks great. I had just as much fun building mine as I did flying it. How are you going to install the carbon rod? Will you slant it back toward the wing tip or just run it right accross the fuse at a 90 degree angle. As far as the rod being too thick, I just cut my wing along the rod line and joined the sections with the epoxy. If you groove each section out with a spare piece of rod and some sandpaper, the seam is allmost invisible.

[byrocat]

Looks great. I had just as much fun building mine as I did flying it. How are you going to install the carbon rod? Will you slant it back toward the wing tip or just run it right accross the fuse at a 90 degree angle. As far as the rod being too thick, I just cut my wing along the rod line and joined the sections with the epoxy. If you groove each section out with a spare piece of rod and some sandpaper, the seam is allmost invisible.

Actually, I'm thinking of going with the straight rod like your installation.

Looks like I should try embedding the rod by sanding out a trough (even if I go all the way through the wing so that I do have a curved bed on the bottom to maximize the glue surace.

BTW, do you "rough up" the rod prior to gluing of just drop it in directly.

Yes, I know that CF dust in deadly dangerous, so I figure that the roughing is probably a pass down the rod with 600 grit paper, if it's needed.

BTW, what epoxy do you use for bonding the rod or is it foam-friendly CA?

[Mark DiMonte]

Try using the method in the pictures. First cut a 45 degree bevel in one edge. Then the same on the other side. Remove the 90 degree cut out and wrap some 150 grit sand paper arround the end of the cf tube. Sand out the the side to a half circle. Repeat for the seccond side to be joined and you have a perfect pocket for the carbon tube. I roughen my spar up with wet sand paper of about 150 grit, dry it up and use 30 min epoxy to glue the whole thing together. Just use some wax paper under and have some alchol ready to wipe up excess epoxy. Tape the sides together on a flat surface and let it dry. Note rotate the cf tube in the slot to spread the epoxy on all surfaces.

[David Winter]

With the bubble canopy style it looks like you were going for a mk4 proposed aircraft? Might be interesting to use the proposed forward swept intakes as on the mk3 Mach 3 speed design.

[Mark DiMonte]

Very observant sir. Will you be making an Arrow in the future? To Tell the truth, I made the bubble type canopy because it was the easiest. I will test canards both fixed and moveable ones in the future.

[David Winter]

I have an Arrow mk2 (RL-206) in the works right now.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283265

Canards would be interesting but I was refering more to the forward swept intakes the mk3 were proposed to have. The would have been similar to the forward swept scoop's the American F-105 eventually used.

An artists rendering from the technical drawings in the Arrow book.

http://www.mach3graphics.com/Arrow%20graphics/jpg%20pix/mk3_side.jpg

[Mark DiMonte]

Yes... I saw them in the Arrowheads book. This set up might help in the ducted fan version that you are working on. I am waiting to win the lottery and buy a turbine for my next arrow. Good luck on the Arrow.

[Mark DiMonte]

After many test flights turning only left or only right,(depending on thrust offset of the motor) I have determined that this design nees a rudder. I taped the rudder with a slight deflection to the right and the the planes turns right beautifuly. When turning left, the nose of the Arrow would not drop into the turn. I also tried many levels of aileron differential to no avail. I feel that the rudder is necessary to make proper turns. I found this out as well on my .45 size gas pusher arrow as well. I am off to my local Hobby store for another servo and I will let you know how things go. The AUW of my arrow is 11.2 oz. so the addition of a rudder should not make the wing loading an issue. The plane flies pretty fast with a 3 cell lipo and an 8 X 6 slowfly prop. I caught myself just watching it fly as opposed to flying it a coupple of times. Beautiful lines in the air. MAD out

[Mark DiMonte]

Victory!! Rudder makes all the difference. Flew my Arrow today in 20 mph. winds and it flew great. Checked the weight of the plane and it is still just over 11 oz. I also checked the amp draw and it was 6.3 amps. with a tp 1300 3 cell lipo. I am very happy. The plane rolls quicker than you could blink. Loops were no problems. I will make some changes to the plan and post throws . Mixing was used for the rudder. I used 50% aileron to rudder. This helped the nose turn into the turn. I cant wait for some calm weather to fly again. The plan will be in autocad dxf if you would like them. E-mail me and I will send them off as soon as they are done.

[Mark DiMonte]

Flew today at lunch in 15 mph winds with a fellow teacher at the video controls. E-mail me at marco.dimonte@tcdsb.org for some flight clips. :) :)

[CRASH GORDON]

i watched marks arrow vids they are great the thing banks and rolls very nice and slows right down for the landing,allthough the vids were too short,hehehe

[Mark DiMonte]

Flew again today and I am getting better. My camera man however is not. I will try and make some more clips and post them when my hosting site is ready.

[intermision]

Can you put the plans into tiled pdf format.

[Mark DiMonte]

I will try. What program do I need to convert the dxf(autocad) to pdf ?

[Mark DiMonte]

I have the plans in pdf but I have had troubble getting them to tile. I could send the pdf to you in full size drawing but you will have to tile it yourselftp print. Check the scale before you print. I put one on the drawing just for that reason. send requests to markdimonte@hotmail.com or marco.dimonte@tcdsb.org and I will send you the plans.

[David Winter]

Maybe just post the DXF files? There are lots of free DXF viewers out there and TurboCad is free for 30 days. I would think that should be enough for people to get out of the DXF files what they need.

[Mark DiMonte]

OK. I figured out how to post some clips of my Depron Avro Arrow . Go to the gallery to see the clips . I have been selling the plans for a gas version but the depron ones are free. Just ask. I will be making a decal sheet as well for the depron version. It will be a corel file or a jpeg that you can print on your computer. MAD out.

[Mark DiMonte]

Here is arrow number two in white with most of the markings. Still some work to do but it is coming along.

[David Winter]

looks nice.. hope mine flies as well as yours does.

[CRASH GORDON]

THAT is truely amazing looking,and i did see the short vids.the ones on yer site dont seem to work mark!!i would really like some plans for that arrow.do you do commission work??
cheers

crash

[Rikidee]

Mark
I have been watching your progress with great interest. The electric videos on your site are really impressive. I folded this FFF version of the Arrow last winter but haven't yet got the repower for the EDF64 fitted to it. I want to wind a CDrom Gobrushless to replace the anemic brushed sparker on the 64.
I have always thought the pusher prop version to be a less than desireable option. But it looks too cool and sounds right as an electric option. Of course, Draken's EDF video is superb. Would love to see plans from you.The .pdf tiled are great for the masses. The Arrow lives!
Thanks,
Rick :)

[Mark DiMonte]

Here are some more pics.

[Mark DiMonte]

I have put some clips of flight in the gallery. Check them out. The new vids from flight yesterday should go in tomorrow. http://rcgroups.com/gallery/data/509/23153earrow3.wmv

[Mark DiMonte]

Holy Cow!!! I flew my Arrow today with a himax 20/25 5300 and a three cell lipo. and it rocks. Ulimited vertical and speed is impressive. It looked great doing low high speed passes and pulling up to vertical victory rolls. I should get some more video clips soon and will post a link of where to view them. The plans are still available to anyone who wants them. E-mail me at markdimonte@hotmail.com. :) :)

[Sonic1]

Wow Mark, that Arrow looks great!

Jeff.

[Mark DiMonte]

Just thought you might like to see my electric Arrow's big brother. .45 glow powered with retracts.

[soaringtuna]

Can I get the free depron plans at
marc.andre.filion@gmail.com PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

[pacro]

When are you gonna post plans for this supub plane

[Mark DiMonte]

E-mail me at markdimonte@hotmail.com and I will send them off to you.

[GalantVR4]

Verry cool plane, I dont know how I missed this post.

[Grejen]

Love the Arrow. Hey - IAMCANADIAN! This is an excellent rendition of it.

[Mark DiMonte]

Hi again. The plans are ready to download for this electric pusher Avro Arrow. Go to www.madrc.com/depronavroarrow/ to see some clips and download the dxf plans.

[Dave Barrow]

Has anyone else built and flown this plane? What kind of power are you using? Motor, gearing, prop, servos, batteries etc... Have you made any improvements? How is the controlability? I am currently building an F-15 from Steve's plans, and am considering this as my next plane as I like deltas. I am also considering the JAS-39 Grippen.

[Rikidee]

Dave,
I've built my Arrow from blue fanfold foam. I have a D gear GWS 350 brushed motor with an E-tec 1200 2s1p lipo for a battery. A GWS hyperdrive 1060 prop. Pico servos. I am impressed with Mark's design form a simplicity and strength perspective. Winter cold and winds have prevented me from trying it yet myself. Mark's videos are impressive, though. I expect I'll need lots of room (frozen lake and fluffy snow :-) ) for flights. From the video it looks pleanty fast. It's sort of nostalga for us here. I have the F-15 plans too. They look interesting. Sorry not to have a flight report at this time.
Rick

[Dave Barrow]

Rikidee, glad to hear someone is building the Arrow. It's a shame that politics killed the real ones. Great planes like this will always live on in the hearts and hands of modelers. Yes, it is a great looking design that Mark has done here, as are all the other Depron/FFF jets showing up on RC Groups lately. I may start cutting fff on this one soon. I too am using fff, it's cheap and readily available. Maybe when I get a little better at it, I'll invest in some Depron. Looking forward to flight reports and pics of your Arrow. Hoping to finish my F-15 over the holidays. Have a great Christmas and best wishes for the New Year
Thanks, Dave

[erunway]

Will start building during this holiday season...
Thanks for the plan...

[Hepdog]

Also building an Arrow. Mine is out of de-papered sturdy board. I drew up my own plans from an 2X enlarged 3 view I've been carrying around for 20+ years. Buddy in the CAF gave it to me and now I have a use for it. :) AUW is expected under 12 oz so I may go CDROM power or GWS 350C in a D box. I haven't decided just yet. Its winter and most flying will be indoors so I'm leaning towards the CDROM. Target wing loading is under 6oz/sq' so CDROM looks real good. I read Marks comments about rudder and am very curious as to why it wouldn't turn with aileron/elevator only :confused: We'll have to see I guess - roll pull turn???

The pic is just the mock up of cut parts so far. Lots of work to do.

The ARROW is just so inspirational to us Canajuns that I may just have to build many variations until I get it right. I can already see a much larger glassed version powered by a big BL screaming across the airfeild at this springs fly-in...OOOOH...AHHHHH...TEARS.... ;)

[Mark DiMonte]

I have since figued out why my Arrow did not turn well. I believe it was a function of cg. It was too far rearward and the nose would not drop into the turn. I checked this with a number of test flights with a switch turning my mixing of aileron and rudder. With the cg forward, it will turn without rudder but it is as you say, roll and pull back to turn. With the rudder mixing, the turns are much smoother and if you watch some of the videos you can see the rudder lead the nose into the turn. As I moved the cg forward the turns were easier to execute but not as easy as with the mixing. I would still use rudder as it makes the plane more scale looking and more aerobatic. As for my site, I know it is crude and it takes a long time for the videos and plans to load but it does work. Be patient.

[flyingwings]

This will be my second 32 scale Arrow weighing 3 oz lighter than No. 1. The first Arrow was covered with .7 oz glass cloth. The second is covered with .4 oz carbon fibre mat. The mat produces a superior finish and is very tough.

The model is completely 1 lb density bead foam except for the balsa nose.

The carbon fibre has been glued on with watered down Weldbond glue. After two dried coats I wet sand the whole model. The wet sanding reconstitutes the glue allowing the glue to be smeared during sanding. The smearing fills all pores in the carbon fibre.

The first Arrow I used the Speed 300 and Johnson 280 for power. At 16 oz the model was too heavy but it did fly.

The second Arrow will be powered with a Gobrushless 9 turn motor that may give 9 oz thrust at 60 mph prop. speed using a hi current 2 cell 340 mah Lipo.

The new Arrow could have been lighter. Next time around I expect to reduce AUW to about 8 oz.

Speed and vertical performance is the objective.

In the first Arrow I was having problems with a lack of speed. I opened up the intake ducts and the exhaust nozzles. The speed increased substantially.

[Hepdog]

Sometimes it takes more than 1 try to get it right flyingwings.

I'm on my third version of an Arrow and hopefully I got it closer to right this time. In the pic are versions 1 and 3. I actually started with version 1 which is the full bodied one but decided against going any further until I nailed the CofG, weight and thrust requirements and control throws.
Version 2 was a quick build pink FFF throw glider to find the CofG. Worked well. So well I loaded it up with gear to see if it would "fly". When using Elevons you MUST make sure that not only is up actually up, but that a left stick will result in a LEFT turn...DOH - lost that one to a spectacular maiden flight crash.

So I built version 3 - same dimensions as 1 and 2 and same material and weight as version 1 only not full-bodied - just profile (much quicker build). Construction is de-papered sturdy board with balsa and ply where required. I am using a 14 turn 26 gauge 22.7 GB BL CD ROM for power swinging a GWS 5030 on a CC10 and 750 2S Lipo. Amp draw is 3.9 at about 6 oz thrust. AUW is under 10 ozs so it should fly decent.

The intent was for an indoor Arrow and it should work well. First real indoor flight is scheduled for this Friday. If all goes well, I'll continue on with my "real" Arrow, although that may go through many versions itself until I get it "right". :)

[CRASH GORDON]

flyingwings and hep dog,both very nice arrows. hep dog i guess the weather in mb is cold enough now you kinda stay in and build eh....i migrated to bc from mb in the 80`s but now im sick of the rain and think some snow would be a good thing..

[CRASH GORDON]

flyingwings and hep dog,both very nice arrows. hep dog i guess the weather in mb is cold enough now you kinda stay in and build eh....i migrated to bc from mb in the 80`s but now im sick of the rain and think some snow would be a good thing..

[Hepdog]

Snow is great - love the stuff. But this minus 44 with a windchill crap is seriously getting on my nerves. :rolleyes:

[Mark DiMonte]

Now that is building weather!!!

[flyingwings]

Good Morning Hepdog

Actually I am on my 13th version. I know - Get a Life - The Arrow is not the only model I work on.

Here's a shot of a few of what I have on the go.

[Hepdog]

Holy crap batman - that's alot of Arrows and all nicley done too! :) As I don't see any props anywhere am I to assume they are all EDF's? That is my ultimate goal but I'm just getting started - apparantly :eek:
Where abouts are you from?

[Mark DiMonte]

Tell me about the cannard version in front. I was considering doing that to one of mine. How does it affect flight?

[flyingwings]

Tell me about the cannard version in front. I was considering doing that to one of mine. How does it affect flight?

Good Afternoon Mark

The canard version is a cat launch free flight glider that flew very well. At some stage I want to do a 24 scale version with pusher power or EDF if I can get the thrust I want.

[flyingwings]

Holy crap batman - that's alot of Arrows and all nicley done too! :) As I don't see any props anywhere am I to assume they are all EDF's? That is my ultimate goal but I'm just getting started - apparantly :eek:
Where abouts are you from?

I am in St. Albert, Alberta, north of Edmonton 5 km.

In actual fact I have kits stored in my outside shop for 72, 48 and 32 scale Arrows.

Cat launch freeflight and pushers. EDF will come when I get the power output I want. An electric model that looks like the real aircraft and that will do a big loop like the real aircraft is my objective. A cost effective solution is not there yet. Pushers are cost effective and by choosing the right model such as the Arrow I can hide the motor and prop.

After selling and trying to sell kits 2 years ago I decided that selling consumed more time than building, flying and yeh work too.

Work interferes with the hobby immensly.

Just a thought and some fact for you. In the first 32 scale Arrow I opened the intakes and the exhaust so that I had full airflow through the fuselage. I recessed the motor into the fuselage. Speed of the model went up dramatically and the motor and battery were cool to the touch when the Arrow landed.

In the second Arrow I have run carbon fibre matt up the opened duct. Smooth air flow into the fuselage with a great increase in strength in that area with no noticable weight gain. I measure the weight frequently during construction.

Attached are pictures of the cockpit of my 48 scale Arrow that will be using a Gobrushless 9 turn motor and pictures of the intake and exhaust duct. Plus two other Arrows.

Paul

[Hepdog]

Flying Wings,
So is your construction method carving out of blocks of foam, or assembling pieces of flat Depron? Your wings look very thick for flat depron. I really like the way you are doing it.
You say you have some cut kits in various sizes eh? Could you explain your scaling system in actual inches or weights for comparison. I might be interested in helping you clean out your shop a little bit. Might be others as well.

BTW I think St Albert is a very pretty little town (city by now?) I visited there a bunch of years back and would live there in a heartbeat.

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=Hepdog]Flying Wings,
So is your construction method carving out of blocks of foam

My kits were based on sliced foam board. In looking at the best way of making foam models I found that if I sized the slices such that there were 3 slices per minimum width of fuselage for many of the different aircraft.

When I look at the wings and vertical tail I found that in almost all cases the slice thickness used worked for those areas as well. Consequently, my kits were made up of the same thickness of sliced foam for the various components.

I tried 3 different weights of foam to see what would produce the lightest model. Naturally the one pound density provided the lightest model.

I have learn to work with bead foam over thirty years of use and I don't have problems with working it. Now others may not be so inclined. What I like about foam is the dust is non alergenic and it falls to the floor. I avoid balsa as much as possible. I start coughing immediately when I use balsa.

I have attached some photos of how the models are made. I say models as I have done about 30 different types.

I start with the 3 view. Pull the components required to a foam cut drawing and then assemble as the first of 9 page of instructions.

I supplied the Weldbond glue and the fibreglass in the kit.

As well I provide photos of the progress of the assembly as shown.

The kits in the shed are foam only. When I was selling I would assemble a kit on order. Time consuming which I did and don't have a lot of.

To reduce weight now I would reduce the thickness of some components.

I have lived in St. Albert for 24 years. It is a great City now.

[Hepdog]

Tried flying my Arrow indoors tonight. It flies real nice - just WAAAY too fast for a high school gym :) It's basically throw down one side of gym and start turning and hopefully you don't hit the walls - or stall. I guess deltas bleed alot of energy at high AOA's cause she just about stops with full up. Now I'll either have to find a way bigger gym (or golf dome) or wait for a reasonably nice day. April isn't far away :rolleyes:
AUW is 9.2 ozs CD rom power - 14T GB 22.7 - GWS 5030 under 6 amps wot - GP 720 Mah 2S - CC10 - AET
I could still build it about an ounce and a half lighter, but I think its still goiong to be too fast to fly indoors comfortably. I think I'll scratch building a small light Arrow and go the other way and build a big glassed outdoor screamer. :)
I did notice in my very short panicked flights that it turns left better than right. It still turns okay though. I also found that the plane flies ALOT better with a forward CofG. Assuming everyone is using the same wing planform, just a little bit in front of the LE strakes worked best. She really grooved with it up there.

BTW the paint job was by no means an attempt at scale - I just couldn't stand a stark white plane so I threw some paint on it real quick.

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=Hepdog] it flies ALOT better with a forward CofG. Assuming everyone is using the same wing planform, just a little bit in front of the LE strakes worked best. She really grooved with it up there.

When you say leading edge strake do you mean the outer panel LE at the notch?

The Arrow has no LE Strakes.

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=flyingwings][QUOTE=Hepdog]

What part of the country are you from?

[Hepdog]

When you say leading edge strake do you mean the outer panel LE at the notch?

The Arrow has no LE Strakes.[/QUOTE]

LE notch, if that's what it's actually called, then yes in front of that.

I'm from Stonewall Manitoba which, sorta like St Albert, is a small bedroom community about 17 miles north of Winnipeg. Nice and quiet and plenty of open spaces to fly electrics in with no hassles.

BTW thanks for all the info you posted, it helped alot giving some ideas on how to set up this one and build the next one(s). :)

[flyingwings]

When you say leading edge strake do you mean the outer panel LE at the notch?

The Arrow has no LE Strakes.

My pleasure.

The notch has also been called the dog tooth. Notch is my definition because it is more descriptive of what takes place at a notch. At a notch a very strong vortex is generated that has a strong influence on the lift of the wing at high alpha.

[Hepdog]

I got lucky this AM - no not that - I mean no wind :) and only -20 :o So I just had to try the Arrow out where I could stretch her legs. Learned quite a bit about her before my face and fingers froze. :mad:
- 2S power was actually marginal. It would fly, but right on the stall. 3S fixed that in a big way. I also used a heavier batt which moved the CofG up more without superfluous weight. :)
- Mark Dimonte is 100% correct, it needs a rudder to turn "better". I'm not an aerodynamisist so I don't know why that is, but it is. It flies fine without it at high speeds, but at lower speeds the nose definatley does not want to move. The solution without a rudder is to bank and yank even more which is something you defiantly should not be doing at low airspeeds. This is why it was always loosing energy in the gym - tight space - marginal power - need for tight turns etc etc.
- Mark is also 100% correct that the first time you see a reasonably painted Arrow fly by, you end up watching in awe and not flying it. She really is a pretty looking airplane - looks fast even when flying slow. Deifenbaker can rot you know where ;)
- This was my first venture into high RPM motors spinning tiny props. Great for high speed, but they don't have any bottom end and bleed energy real quick. I think Mark's set up with the Himax spinning a reasonable sized prop should yeild much more impressive results. I like to pull back and climb - preferably forever :) Maybe I'm not an EDF type of guy afterall.

If anybody wants my dimensions for a cheap quick CD ROM powered poster board semi-profile Arrow, I could draw something up. The plans Mark and FlyingWings have posted should be more than enough to get anyone started.

Oh yeah no video - sorry. When I asked my better half if she'd run the camera (which has tiny buttons you can't use with gloves on) she gave me "the look". :eek: It was "only" -20 geesh. ;)

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=Hepdog]- Mark Dimonte is 100% correct, it needs a rudder to turn "better".

The reason the Arrow has bank problems is simple once you look at it carefully.

1. Note the location of the Arrow on a sideview.

2. Calculate the area ahead of the cg. and aft of cg.

3. The area aft of cg is greater forward of cg by about 27.2 %.

4. Estimate where the effective centre of each area is. It doesn't have to be precise.

5. Measure from cg to the centre of effective area for each.

6. Multiply the area of each by the distance measured to each effective area centre.

7. Compare the two numbers. You will see that the effective area ahead of cg has almost identical moment to the area aft of cg.

8. At slow speed this becomes more pronounced because the rudder is partially blanked and airflow is turbulent because of the forward fuselage and intakes. Therefore the rudder effect reduces. Low Reynolds number reduces the rudder effectiveness further causing the effectice centre of the aft section to shift even more forward.

Consequently, the forward fuselage controls the yaw characteristics of the Arrow. REMEMBER this is at low speed only. At high speed the effective centre of area shifts back again.

9. Yes rudder is needed or additional area is required on the underside of the fuselage.

As a comparison to the Arrow look at the TR2 or even the F16 for that matter. Fins were required on the underside to give yaw stability.

So to solve the Arrow problems for the model:

1. Rudder control or

2. Additional fins either on the underside of the fuselage or out on the wing tips.

To determine the area that will work go thru the same calculations shown above and add fin area. The moment percentage should be greater than 5% aft.

It the fins go out on the wing tips the size of the fins can be reduced as the fins will provide additional yaw stability because they have a strong moment arm from the cg out to the wing tip.

I will be putting clear plastic fins out on the wing tips of my Arrows before I motorize the rudder. Less weight required.

Paul

[pcaffeldt]

Hepdog - I'd say a bunch of us would be interested in your drawing for a semi-profile Arrow.

Flyingwings - You've seen the thread for the profile SR71, ya ? They've got a couple of profile jet engines slung underneath. They must be performing the function for yaw stability . . . ?

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=pcaffeldt]Hepdog - I'd say a bunch of us would be interested in your drawing for a semi-profile Arrow.

Flyingwings - You've seen the thread for the profile SR71, ya ? They've got a couple of profile jet engines slung underneath. They must be performing the function for yaw stability . . . ?[/QUOTE

I have the drawing in AutoCad, PDF or JPEG what is the preference. Send me a private email and I will send what you require.

The engines will provide yaw stability. However, if you do the calcs I suspect you will find the moment is for a stable yaw condition.

Attached is a picture of my Cat Launch SR71.

This was an interesting free flight model. When it was launched it flew exceptionally well and then when it came into ground effect the nose would automatically slowly lift.

Paul

[pcaffeldt]

Hi Paul - Well, if you would I'd like it in PDF. To pcaffeldt@yahoo.com

Thanks A Ton !

[Mark DiMonte]

Some more flight vids in the gallery. http://www.rcgroups.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=509

[sledge29]

sr-71.. ? dow blue core or depron im building one right now.. here is the link to my thread http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330458&page=2&pp=15&highlight=sr71+foamy

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=sledge29]sr-71..

Good Morning Sledge

I had a look at your thread. Excellent work so far.

Judging by the size of the control surfaces your Black Bird will have some pretty wild flying characteristics. I hope your setting your throws very small for the first few flights. Have you seen any of the video of the birds flying characteristics with much small control surfaces?

I made my SR71 out of 1 lb density foam and then covered with .7 oz fibre glass. It was a great free flight glider until I gave it to my grandson. Oh well.

Attached photo. Arrow and SR71 are similar aren't they?

Paul

[Grejen]

Attached photo. Arrow and SR71 are similar aren't they?
Huh?! How do you mean? Both are twins and neither has a separate stabelizer. Other than that they're as different as black and white! :D

[flyingwings]

Huh?! How do you mean? Both are twins and neither has a separate stabelizer. Other than that they're as different as black and white! :D

They are both deltas, twin engined, high speed with separate elevators and ailerons. Different as black and white. Yep.

[Grejen]

Hmm.. Welll.. I'm not sure I'd call the SR71 a 'Delta'. The Arrow's max speed was around Mach 2.3 due to limitations of alluminum alloys and the SR71s is all titanium and did over Mach 3. The Arrow's mission is interceptor though it never was produced. The SR71 is "Strike Reconisance" though highly successful in the latter I don't think it was really used in the former role.

Both were extremely advanced technologies for their times.
Both are radical design and engineering feats.
Both are legendary and have a lot of mystery and folklore surrounding them.
Similar? Sure. As R/C models they would probably fly very much alike.

[larry baraniuk]

I heard that 20% of the avro arrow was made of titanium and they were in the process of putting more on it as it it progressed.

[outcastrc]

I have read that titanium was part of its demise. The reason being that Avro was buying all the titanium they could get their hands on. Severly cutting into the Americans purchacing efforts of Titanium for their jets. (It was supposed to be very hard to come by large quantities back then) The other reason I hear the Americans didn't want the Arrow built was because it would have been the only plane in the world that could have tracked and destroyed their spy planes. Not that we would have done it but since the planes were to be for sale "The Enemy" could buy some. Which explains some of the politics at the time between the 2 countries over the Arrow. The Arrow had too much potential, and was too dangerous to be left alone. So in the end politics and stupidy lead to its destruction...

[larry baraniuk]

There's a really neat picture of the SR71 flying beside an avro arrow that I have that I retreived from webshots.
It's very interesting to see the simularities in the canopy and other features of these two planes.
I find it amusing that the USA had to get there titanium for there SR71 from Russia.
The SR71 is a fantastic plane that was another plane that was way ahead of its time.

[flyingwings]

[QUOTE=outcastrc]I have read that titanium was part of its demise. The reason being that Avro was buying all the titanium they could get their hands on. Severly cutting into the Americans purchacing efforts of Titanium for their jets.

Where did you read that? The US hadn't even considered using Titanium because they didn't know how to work with it. Canada was the only country that had developed the technology for Titanium.

Titanium has been used for paints and welding rod for well over 60 years. Titanium used as a metal in aircraft was basically a result of the work at Avro.

There is certainly no shortage of titanium nor was there a shortage at the time of the Arrow. Avro was using Canadian Titanium.

The demise of the Arrow was based on a snow job by someone suggesting that Interceptors (the Arrow was an Interceptor) were no longer required because of the Soviet space program. Everything was supposed to ICBM's. The Royal Canadian Air Force, Army and Government bought into it.

The Arrow was axed because Crawford Gordon made a big mistake with Dieffenbaker.

There were many long stories concerning the demise of the Arrow and of Avro's Airliner. Competition with the US aircraft industry.

Paul

[outcastrc]

[QUOTE=outcastrc]I have read that titanium was part of its demise. The reason being that Avro was buying all the titanium they could get their hands on. Severly cutting into the Americans purchacing efforts of Titanium for their jets.

Where did you read that? The US hadn't even considered using Titanium because they didn't know how to work with it. Canada was the only country that had developed the technology for Titanium.

Titanium has been used for paints and welding rod for well over 60 years. Titanium used as a metal in aircraft was basically a result of the work at Avro.

There is certainly no shortage of titanium nor was there a shortage at the time of the Arrow. Avro was using Canadian Titanium.

The demise of the Arrow was based on a snow job by someone suggesting that Interceptors (the Arrow was an Interceptor) were no longer required because of the Soviet space program. Everything was supposed to ICBM's. The Royal Canadian Air Force, Army and Government bought into it.

The Arrow was axed because Crawford Gordon made a big mistake with Dieffenbaker.

There were many long stories concerning the demise of the Arrow and of Avro's Airliner. Competition with the US aircraft industry.

Paul

I have read it in a few different places. Here's the site I last read about it.

http://www.kaap.purpleglen.com/

[rpage53]

I have read it in a few different places.
I think the titanium idea stems from speculation by Palmiro Campagna in "Storms of Controversy". The internet sources all have the same line "the Arrow program was also dominating the world's supply of titanium, a metal in short supply in the late 50's". Mind you, his book is based on recently released classified materials so there might be some truth to it.
Truth to the belief any way. They didn't make enough Blackbirds or Arrows that I could imagine an impact on the world supply of one of the most common metals. The commercial production of titanium was just getting cranked up in the '50's.

Rick.

[sledge29]

just about done my foamy sr-71 just need to test fly it and work out any bugs.. hers a link to the thread

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330458&page=4&pp=15

[Mark DiMonte]

Hi all. I just changed the video clips on my website. They show off some of the flight envelope of the plane with the brushless set up. Go to www.madrc.com/depronavroarrow/ to see them.

[byrocat]

At this late stage in the construction, I am ready to stick the battery pack in. I carefully measured the thickness of the pack, and made several checks to try to get the plane to balance with room for adjustment.

Well, spot looked good, and I cut out the tray mount. Put in the 1/32 ply for the tray and then the velcro on the pack and the tray.

Dropped wing on top.

OOPS! forgot to trim things down for the thickness of the velcro. Battery pack now comes to the top of the hatch in the wing.

Going to go for a simple cover over the pack bay to get this plane finished in time.

Picture to follow so you all can laugh and point the finger at me.

[solracsomar1]

Hi to all

I am working in my Arrow thanks for all the input and the plan.
Blue Fanold

Here is my Arrow
Thanks

Carlos