New to Sailplanes - Want to thermal - Need Kit! [Archive]

Cyph3r42

Sep 20, 2004, 12:26 PM

Hello Everyone!

I'm thinking of starting into thermal planes. I'm kindof having a hard time deciding which of these planes I should get (I am also open to suggestions):

CG Gentle Lady
CG Sophisticated Lady
GP Spirit 2M

I wouldn't mind getting a larger wingspan plane but I'd need for it to be able to seperate for transportation. I'd also like to keep the kit cost down below $70. I would like to have RES. I figured that I'd add them if possible to the wing.

I have a Futaba Skysport w/ 4 - S3003 and I also have 4 GWS Naro servos so I think I'm pretty much ok in the radio department.

I have heard alot of people don't like the SL due to the very fragile tail. Seeing as this would be my first sailplane it would probably break on me. I do like how it looks though.

Opinions?

Andrew

SoarNeck

Sep 20, 2004, 12:52 PM

The Sig Riser 100 is a better model than any of these, IMHO, and has a 2-piece wing. MUCH stronger as well.

nuevo

Sep 20, 2004, 01:32 PM

Not sure about the strength of the Naro servos for a 2m or 3m plane. The Gentle Lady, or Spirit are both widely used, and pretty well thought of.

Do you know how to fly RC now? If not, consider a foam plane. It is heavier, but much more durable. One example is the Gentle Foamie.

http://www.isthmusmodels.com/pages/mtntoy/gentle.html

EPP foam planes can litterally be smacked into the ground with little fear of damage. They are not the prettiest, and are often heavier than wood planes. If you don't know how to fly, they help you get over the fear of crashing, and the frustrating cycle of fly-crash-rebuild, fly-crash-rebuild, ...

The larger planes are better flyers, like the Riser 100, SoarNeck mentioned. They do require more skill in the flying department. They are less manueverable near the ground, but far more efficient gliding. If you are already a skilled RC pilot, just looking at getting into thermal flying, this would be an excellent choice.

sailhigh

Sep 20, 2004, 01:37 PM

As someone who has taught a few people to fly, I can't say enough good things about the Gentle Lady. Sure there are stronger/faster/better quality kits out there, but it's been my observation that nothing comes close to the flying qualities, specially forgiving flight characteristics so impotant to newbies, of the Gentle Lady. An insturctor is also an important element of your learning phase. I would stay away from the SL due to structural reasons.
Best of luck,
Sean

Gliderguy

Sep 20, 2004, 01:41 PM

Another nice kit that's laser cut is the Windfree from Sky Bench.
100" wing span, nice easy build, fairly strong and thermals great. The price is right too.

See it here http://www.skybench.com/ in thier R/C Sailplane, RES/Nostalgia section.

Cyph3r42

Sep 20, 2004, 02:00 PM

JonStone: I figured the most the naros might be capable is running the spoilers. I'm not even sure about that.

sailhigh: I have had a little rc experience but not much. I would be flying at a local club that would have plenty of folks who could lend a hand when I start.

These are all looking to be very good suggestions. Please keep them coming! :)

FWFlyer

Sep 20, 2004, 04:02 PM

If you don't want to build, go with the Spirit 2M ARF. It is a bit above you $70 mark, but you won't have to put $12 dollars in covering on a 2M plane.

If you do choose it, I recommend that you beef up the joiner. The standard joiner aluminum is too weak. I have folded the wings when the joiner failed. Two friends from my flying club had the same experience. We have all switched to solid aluminum joiners milled from stock.

Cyph3r42

Sep 20, 2004, 04:31 PM

:) I would very much like to build.

What hi-starts would be good for these planes? I've found some that are pretty much for 2M and some that are for 100" or less from Dynaflight. What would you all recommend?

FWFlyer

Sep 20, 2004, 04:43 PM

How large of a field will you launch from?

John_R_C

Sep 20, 2004, 05:19 PM

If you go with the Spirit 2M ARF, my solution to the joiner warping problem (bent it on a winch, not a high start) was to use aircraft plywood in lieu of balsa for the joiner sandwich. Clean and rough up the aluminum before epoxying to the plywood for best adhesion :)

artmonster

Sep 20, 2004, 06:34 PM

I agree with the 2M Spirit ARF.

Ive been flying mine for years!!

and it slopes good too. Build it with the optional spoilers ( really helps in spot landings, or small landing zones, also if the lift is too much and you need to get your bird back to earth).

It penetrates and is much sturdier than the Gentle Lady. ( I havent seen the Sophisticated lady fly).

My Spirit has been beat to heck, and still flies.

It's not the best plane mind you, and surly isnt a competition plane....but for an entry level ship it's great!! and the price wont break you.

I have moved onto bigger and better things...but still wont give up the Spirit....its a great utility ship that can take a beating. It is still fun to fly.

The wing is a nice two piece for easy transport, and break prevention.

(( and I agree on the rouging up the aluminum on the joiner rod for adhesion, I have repaired and rebuilt mine over a couple dozen times due to rough handling....but it still is doin its job, I have replaced the wood in the middle easily, so dont worry about that, the joiner rod is pretty good, and gives to save the wings, you will bend it a lot, but really appreciate it as your wings live long ))

dont go naro servos.....use the standard size servos that come with the Spirit ARF, they are allready installed. Use the Naro servos in the wings for the Spoilers, they will be fine for that.

my 2 cents.
:D :eek: :D

Cyph3r42

Sep 20, 2004, 09:40 PM

I'm not exactly sure how much launch area they have at the club. The club flies over a sod farm. They do launch some unlimited class craft out of there.

I didn't think those naros would be any good for the main control surfaces. Are they good for spoilers? I was hoping they might be.

fprintf

Sep 20, 2004, 11:01 PM

I would go out to the field and ask the local guys what to get and then compare notes with what you have read here. You may also get a feel for how open they are to taking their valuable flying time to train a newbie. I always thought most people were so generous with their time as all my flying time up to a certain point was with other fliers, but I found at least one lately (not a local guy) who was a real jerk about his time on the field.

That said, I completely agree with JonStone's recommendation for the Gentle Foamy from Mountain Models. I have a similar plane, called the HIghlander, and it has been through more abuse that would have turned similar sized balsa planes into sticks many times over. Furthermore it is very durable on the histart or winch, being virtually bullet proof (my heavy foot on the winch and the wings didn't bend or break despite multiple mistakes and trying to pull up while my foot was still pedal to the metal on the winch). It thermals with the best of them too, albeit I bet I miss a few thermals a day due to the wingloading. Nevertheless I rarely have a day that I cannot get the plane up to heights much greater than launch height. So I still say to every newbie, do yourself a favor and get yourself more flying time with a foam model. Learn to fly first, learn to build second *or* at the same time.

mike85gn

Sep 20, 2004, 11:32 PM

I'd also suggest the Schweizer 1-26, formerly from Dave' Aircraft Works (now SkyKing R/C) http://www.skykingrcproducts.com/rcplanes/DAW_kits.html. They are renowned for toughness and stability while still being a good fly. Available in 60" and 2-meter sizes. They're typically recommended for sloping, but I've thermalled them before with no problems and they are close to indestructible.

CoastalFlyer

Sep 21, 2004, 12:06 AM

All of the above suggestions are good ones. The important thing is to get something and get building so you can FLY! ;)

If it was me I'd probably get the Skybench Windfree, a terrific plane and one of my all time favorites. I built my first one about 25 years ago!
You also can't go wrong with a Gentle Lady or a Spirit. They both are good planes.

artmonster

Sep 21, 2004, 09:52 AM

I didn't think those naros would be any good for the main control surfaces. Are they good for spoilers? I was hoping they might be.

Yes they should be fine for the spoilers, I considered using HS55's in mine, but then opted to install just one full size srvo in the fuselage with pull cables to both spoilers, since the tubing was allreadi installed in the wing for it....I opted for easy. :D

FWFlyer

Sep 21, 2004, 10:24 AM

I'm not exactly sure how much launch area they have at the club. The club flies over a sod farm. They do launch some unlimited class craft out of there.

Here are 3 other sources to check for Histarts. Since it sounds like you have a large space, you won't be limited to a short histart. If you were, Skybench has good short field ones.

Also, if you are going with a 100" span, get a 3-meter size histart. It is better to have a bit more power and take a few less paces when stretching the rubber. A 2-meter histart will not provide good launches on a bigger, heavier plane.

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/histart.htm

http://www.skybench.com/

http://www.aerofoam.com/hosemonster.html

aeajr

Sep 21, 2004, 10:50 AM

I really love the GP Spirit 2M. That was my starter sailplane. Has been a pleasure and continues to be a favoriate among my sailplanes. The spoilers work very well and the plane really flies well.

I started with the Spirit Select which is a RTF that comes built with a radio fully installed. For you the kit or the ARF would be great.

The standard servos will work great for R/E and you can use one of the GWS servos for the spoilers.

This article may be of interest. It discusses 10 starter sailplanes and things to consider.

Getting Started in Sailplanes
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=36

You asked about hi-starts. This article addresses this topic:

How to use a Hi-Start
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=52

Finally, I find these plane locators and battery monitors very useful:

Plane Locators & Battery Monitors
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=67

You are going to love sailplanes

Sailplanes are Wonderful
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=18

Cyph3r42

Sep 21, 2004, 01:49 PM

I seem to have a bit of reading ahead of me :) I know that my rc skills might be sub-par. Would working with a simulator be helpful? How many of you have used a simulator for sailplanes and which ones?

I was thinking that I could start my build over this fall and work on my control skills with a simulator over the fall and winter. Then start my AMA membership and field membership next year. This way I've had time to brush up on things a bit and take my time and do a good build.

nuevo

Sep 21, 2004, 01:56 PM

If you are not skilled in RC, a simulator can be very helpful. I suggest you purchase an EPP plane.

aeajr

Sep 21, 2004, 03:30 PM

I don't care for sims, but many feel they are very helpful.

Two of the planes in the "getting strated in Sailplanes" are made of EPP foam, if you feel that is a path you would like to take.

fprintf

Sep 21, 2004, 09:58 PM

Get the EPP plane and build it this fall. Then download any version of FMS flight simulator - just so you can get your lefts and rights oriented. I am a perfect example of a flier who was new to RC, having never flown before but had spent numerous hours with MS Flight Simulator 98 in Tower mode. Once I could land the Extra 300 on a regular basis I knew I was pretty ready. My *first* flight I did have an instructor hand me the TX and then when the plane got low I handed it back. On my second flight I flew the whole thing myself and even managed to catch a thermal by circling my histart chute that was hanging in the air. My second real flight was almost 5 minutes.

As I got more confident I started doing stupid things, like loops too close to the ground, or catching a wingtip due to flying the plane too slowly trying to coax a few more feet of flight. It was during this phase of my learning that the EPP came in handy - several times I have launched the plane with the receiver off (bad design on my part to put the on/off switch in an exposed location) and had the plane do a nice high speed arc right into the ground. In the worst crash I broke a servo gear. All other times I dusted the plane off, pulled grass out of the control linkages, hooked back up and continued flying.

p.s. If you really want to practice thermaling the only flight simulator to get is CRRCSim, available from Yahoo! groups. You have to join the group to download the files, but I can assure you it is definitely worth it during the wintertime!

Neil Walker

Sep 22, 2004, 11:45 AM

A simulator would indeed be extremely helpful. FMS (just google for it) is quite good and free, although you'd need to invest in a cable to hook to your transmitter. I *wish* I had logged some hours on the simulator before I started flying ;) Especially if you're planning to build a kit over the winter and then fly when the weather gets a bit better, it would be a very good idea. Don't expect it to be an exact simulation of your plane, it'll never be a "if I can fly it on the sim I can fly it in real life: sort of thing, but it will help greatly training your brain to get used to all the basic movements.

Cyph3r42

Sep 22, 2004, 01:03 PM

I'm a step ahead of ya :) I got FMS yesterday and I have been working with several gliders that I've picked up as well as any other plane I can get my hands on. I don't have a tx cable yet but I have been using a joystick.

I've even logged in some hover time with the two helis (man those are a handful).

I've been working on my orientation issues. The biggest problem I'm having with FMS is that once I lose ground reference I have a hard time telling where the plane is at. Other than that I've been able to work out some of my approaching orientation issues and am working on my from the side orientation. Going away is no sweat... just about anything else can cause a mixup between the head and the hands. More so if I lose sight of it behind a hill or house.

I've also tried out the CRRCSim. I haven't put too much time into this one yet. I am having problems seeing the craft to keep it oriented.

With both simulators I've found some interesting behavior that I'm sure shouldn't be possible. It may just have to do with the way the airplanes are modeled with regards to it's flight characteristics. In one instance I was able to keep looping a zagi in what appeared to be the same vertical space without loosing altitude in CRRCSim Granted it looked like I was supposed to be in a thermal but is that really possible?

I'm going to keep working at it. I'll work on my control first then work on identifying/working thermals. I know that it's not going to be the same when I actually get one in the air but it will be at least a decent start. I'd like to be well beyond the point of getting the correct inputs with regards to orientation.

I'm still trying to figure out which craft to get. I know it's going to be a matter of preference after a certain point. Whichever one I do ultimately choose there will be a build thread.

gdjsky01

Sep 22, 2004, 02:54 PM

I really think EPP is the way to go if you have little to no R/C experience. You can dork them in being completely dumb thumbed and they be flying in 4 minutes again.
Example: I stalled my DAW TG-3 on a lame throw off the winch at a SWSA fun fly in Covina CA about two weeks ago and winched it right into the ground in the big left hand turn arc. :eek: :o :rolleyes: Damage? One stripped servo gear (now replaced). Any wooden plane, even if made from balsa plywood like a Spirt :p would be tinee-tiny itsy-bitsy little pieces of cellulose and mylar. Of course not doing stupid things in the first place would be better, but somethings you just gotta find out for yourself. ;) For example you can not simulate a winch launch! :D

Jeff

Neil Walker

Sep 22, 2004, 04:24 PM

Have you tried zooming the view out on FMS? I also find that the default is far too narrow a FOV and doesn't give you the sense of peripheral vision that you'd get normally. Zoom out the view and unless you're looking straight up you can often catch a little bit of the scenery in the frame that helps for orientation. When you zoom out to far though the view tends to warp because it's trying to squish it all onto a flat screen :)

aeajr

Sep 22, 2004, 04:43 PM

I'm a step ahead of ya :) I've been working on my orientation issues. The biggest problem I'm having with FMS is that once I lose ground reference I have a hard time telling where the plane is at. Other than that I've been able to work out some of my approaching orientation issues and am working on my from the side orientation. Going away is no sweat... just about anything else can cause a mixup between the head and the hands. More so if I lose sight of it behind a hill or house.

This is why I don't like the sims. Half the time I crash is because I have no depth preception. I think I am in front of an object and I crash behind it. I think I am 300 feet in the air and crash into the grass.

I am sure if I spent more time on the SIM I could get better but that is not my objective. I want to spend more time in the air. I will suffer the hard landings and crashes if there be such. Incentive to be more careful, more attentative and a better pilot.

Neil Walker

Sep 22, 2004, 05:42 PM

Well, that's not really the point of a sim, IMHO - at least w.r.t. R/C. The point is to train the motor functions in your hands to perform certain actions, to make things "second nature". It's not to teach you how to fly, or even have fun flying, it's to get your brain and your hands working in synch so that when you do go out and fly they obey your wishes without you having to think about it!

Of course it's also nice to be able to answer questions like "I wonder what would happen if I...." without too much pain :)

fprintf

Sep 22, 2004, 10:44 PM

I completely agree with Neil. Ask any RC Car guy what the most difficult thing to do is and I'll bet most will say "getting your lefts and rights when the car is coming toward you". It is not at all intuitive, even for this video game generation, to assume when the plane turns left as it is coming toward you that you *should* push the stick to prop up the lower wing (the way I was taught to do it). Practicing for a few hours just lets the brain/finger coordinate set in, some muscle memory develops, and the first trip to the field is not to much conscious "push up the lower wing" self-talk but might be more actually flying the plane and guiding it.

Ask me sometime about Keith Code's motorcycle racing courses. They are a blast and he uses a mnemonic about a $1 worth of "attention" that explains the muscle memory/practice phenomenon quite well.

Stuart

p.s. it is easy to do stupid stuff in the sims, but just like you do not drive your car like you drive in a video game (well, I sometimes try and then get reminded rather quickly that my Mini Cooper S doesn't bounce quite as well as in the games) you can't necessarily fly your plane that way either.

Cyph3r42

Sep 22, 2004, 11:54 PM

My main goal with the sims is to get that muscle memory built up. The only time I find the real inconsistencies is when I loose orientation. It's just funny what you find sometimes that way.

Aeajr - I understand the depth perception thing. There are a lot of the depth cues missing that are present in most games. Then again its really hard to simulate that in this type of scenario. It just takes getting used to. I will probably always manage to nail that shack at some time or another.

I know this will seem odd, but one of the ways that I've found to really ingrain the orientation issues is to occasionally practice on the helicopters. There are a lot of axis that you have to keep track of. Once you've worked on just hovering it right side up for a while, invert it. The reason why helis are a good practice is that you don't sometimes have to figure out which way to adjust. You always have to figure it out. Its a lot of quick repetition. I still put in plenty of time with a variety of craft. Just so that way I'm not stuck with the behaviors of a single plane. Again this really works on coordination and ingraining that process of controlling from a remote location. :) Plus it keeps things interesting.

I am also going to bring my fighterbird back out of mothballs for some air time. It's going to need a little t.l.c. before I'll be out in the field with it. It suffered being shot out of a tree with a shotgun. There must be some wierd gravitational pull between aircraft and trees. Much like golf balls and water. It just gets pulled in.

rcsoar4fun

Sep 23, 2004, 12:29 AM

The Spirit is one sweet bird. I put a TON of hours on one until the joiner folded one day. Spend the extra money for an aerofoam highstart. They are really nice.

Kristopher

aeajr

Sep 23, 2004, 06:50 AM

I know what you mean about planes and trees. Just spent a lot of time getting a ZAGI slope plane out of a 50 foot tree that was in the middle of a thorn bush defended forest area. Felt like one of those jungle movies where they ahve the guys hacking their way through the brush, only this brush bites back! :(

PDARR

Sep 23, 2004, 07:05 AM

Contact SoCalGliderFlyr here on Liftzone and get a 2 or 3 Meter Gnome. Great flying sailplanes and his kits are superb.

aeajr

Sep 23, 2004, 09:55 AM

The Spirit is one sweet bird. I put a TON of hours on one until the joiner folded one day. Spend the extra money for an aerofoam highstart. They are really nice.

Kristopher

I have heard a lot of people complain about the joiner on the Spirit. I have never had a problem and I have taken it through some pretty serious crashes and even snapped a wing on a winch launch that was too strong. The Joiner has never failed.

Here is the key, tape the wings.

I like to take the wings apart, but I want them solid when I am flying. So I insert the joiner, then use some clear packing tape to tape them together. They are as solid as if they had been epoxied.

End of day you peel off the tape, or cut it and leave it on the wing. Works great and NO PROBLEMS WITH THE JOINER!

Others at my club are following my lead and no one has had an issue of any kind.

732002

Sep 23, 2004, 10:47 AM

DAW I-26 60" has been a good plane for me. It does take a strong
thermal to climb and is also a good light slope plane. It is
hard to break!

If you know how to fly get balsa RES. Gental Lady flies great but the
wing is not very strong. I have heard good things about the skybench
2M birdy.

ejett

Sep 23, 2004, 04:46 PM

There are several balsa 2m ships available today. Obviously, the Gentle Lady and the GP Spirit have already been mentioned. Check with SoCalGliderFlyer about the availability of the 2m Gnome kit. Mark at Isthmus Models (http://www.isthmusmodels.com) may have a 2m Bird of Time kit available and I know he sells the DJAerotech Chysalis 2m and the Mistral 2m kits as well. If you don't mind building from plans and a short kit DC Hobbies has the Sagitta 2m and the 2m and 100" Whisper kits available. There is a listing in the For Sale column right now for a Top Flite Metrick kit at $75 delivered. Tower Hobbies is selling the Spirit Elite ARF for about $115. Skybench (http://www.skybench.com)'s 2m Lil Bird is a nice plane as well. You can check out NSP's 2m planes on their website http://www.nesail.com . He sells Ed Whyte's Ruby 2m full house ship amoung others.

Be aware that DC Hobbies and Northeast Sailplanes (NSP) have gotten mixed reviews on service and support. It's too bad because they have some attractive hardware.

EJ

RBeach

Sep 23, 2004, 05:18 PM

Andrew,

I think most people will agree that bigger planes generally fly better than smaller planes. I am sure I will get plenty of arguments from 2M fans, but......
Consider the 99" Olympic II from Skybench for $99.00, I have purchased two off of e-bay for under $70.00 per kit.
The OLY has a fine reputation as both a trainer and a competative RES plane. The wings come apart and are about 48" each. You can easily get away with using your full size servos with out any penalty. It's a real floater, and very forgiving.
All in all, I think it would be a better choice for you.

Cheers,
RBeach

Cyph3r42

Sep 23, 2004, 06:48 PM

I really am leaning toward the balsa kits. Right now it's a real toss up between the 100" and the 2m kits. All of them are looking really nice.

I just don't know anything about foamies. If I screwed one up pretty bad (I know this is next to impossible but...) I just wouldn't know how to fix it. I couldn't even build a new wing for one if I had to. I've had a lot of experience working with wood. I understand it and I have the tools for it. I just hope that I don't have to break all of that out very often. I'm not too concerned about performance on a winch. I don't really plan on getting one or using one. I'd be pretty happy to just stretch out some rubber and let it fly. Sink or swim as they say.

I know that quite a few have strongly suggested I go foam considering my current level of experience. I just have to go with what I know. I'd just hate to make a mistake and use the wrong glue on one and watch it turn into a pile of mush. I'll just have to live with it if I totally dumb-thumb it into the ground. Plenty of folks have started out with it and have put many happy years flying around. I also know there have been those folks who have come off of the field with a pile of toothpicks swearing never to return. Part of the fun in this to me is the process of creation. Of all the hobbies that I've been interested in I've always wanted to be part of the creation process. It's just what I do. There will be those that understand this and those that won't. No offense to anyone. But this is just the way I am. I understand that I may suffer a broken bird at times. That's when I put my fixit hat back on and get to work. :) It'll just be a lot more satisfying. ;) Plus it will impress my wife when she sees it built ;)

Back to the planes. For the 2m and 100" planes what are their characteristics like? To they tip stall. When do they want to stall? Do they turn real gently or will they bank like mad? When they are turning will they want to sink a lot or just a little? Are they slow or fast?

So far I've been really interested in these following planes (no particular order):
Spirit 2m
Spirit 100 - Like this one because it can grow with me
Riser 2m/100"
BOT - any variety if I can get my hands on one cheaply enough :) (I really like the way it looks)
Oly II - again if I can get it cheaply enough
Windfree - Looks interesting but would really like to know it's behavior. I can't seem to find much about it.

What are the tendancies of these planes?

schrederman

Sep 23, 2004, 06:58 PM

For a beginner, the Windfree is a no-go. Stick with a polydog. The Oly II would be my recommendation. Before any of you jump on me about Windfree bashing, I should tell you that that's what I learned to fly on and they're really not for beginners. I love them as much as the next guy... given my history, maybe more......

Jack Womack

FWFlyer

Sep 23, 2004, 07:49 PM

I own both a 2 meter and 100" Spirit. Both are excellent flyers. They are both resistant to tipstall.

Two things to remember about gliders to avoid tipstall are 1) put washout in the wingtips and 2) maintain air speed.

One thing alot of newbies to gliders don't take into account is that you can't climb by lifting the nose of the plane. This is especially true if you are use to power planes. If you try to climb that way when thermal hunting, you will slow down and eventually stall. Sure, that sounds obvious, but the tendency is there. If you maintain air speed, tipstall is not a problem, even in tight turns.

gdjsky01

Sep 23, 2004, 10:11 PM

I would still urge the Gentle Foamie... :D :D

If you absolutely must go wood, get a 2 meter Gnome or 3 meter Gnome out from SoCalGldrFlyer. Yes, he is an aquaintance of mine so sure I'd like to see him get your business. But my recommendation is solely based on it is one of the best flyers and built stock, it is extraordinarily strong. Especially the wing.

It'll take a good winching stock as built on the plans. With just a bit of prepreg carbon in the spar it'll take a full pedal zoom. I've seen it done at contests here. It's the fully sheeted D-Tube with good shear webbing that does it. Also the fully sheeted D-Tube makes it easy to build in an 1/8 inch washout in the tips and then keep everything else straight when covering it. I know you are using a hi-start not a winch, my point is it is STRONG and an excellent contest quality RES flyer. Two very rarely combined qualities in an older woodie. And yes SoCal's kits are good.

If you could afford the $120 a 3 meter is the way to go because with few exceptions, bigger flys better. But I am working on a 2 meter. I think that is $60.

If you refuse to so that, than I'd hope you would consider the Mistral 2 Meter or the Chrysalis 2 Meter from Isthmus (SP?) Models or a Little Bird or Big Bird from Ray Hayes. Gentle Ladies are fine, Oly II's are fine, but I think they are somewhat frail. Or if you follow the 'beef up article', get a Mirage Short Kit and fly something really unique these days!

Ok, that's more than my two cents...
Best wishes,
Jeff

solo6796

Sep 23, 2004, 10:19 PM

Friends don't let friends fly two meter.

Get a Hawk!

AJ

Cyph3r42

Sep 23, 2004, 10:27 PM

Jeff - I'm intending to contact SoCalGldrFlyer to see about his kits. :-) I will be giving him a shot.

I do appreciate all of the suggestions :)

gdjsky01

Sep 23, 2004, 11:24 PM

Friends don't let friends fly two meter.

Get a Hawk!

AJ

AJ has a good point as usual. However I thought Hawks were pretty rare birds right now till Don gets things settle in TN? And without a mentor like Jack, I do not think Hawks are a starter kit. You get the ribs, shears, plans, and fuselage. :D

Best wishes AJ,
Jeff

gdjsky01

Sep 23, 2004, 11:26 PM

Friends don't let friends fly two meter.

Get a Hawk!

AJ
AJ I did say bigger flys better. :D

Cyph3r42

Sep 23, 2004, 11:38 PM

Where would I find more information about the Hawk?

So far I've added the Gnome 2m and the Sagitta 900 to my list. I would have added the Whisper but I'm not sure if I'm quite ready to go to a full house ship right off the bat :) Nice looking plane tho.

Sparky Paul

Sep 23, 2004, 11:38 PM

The GL is the easiest to build, and safest to fly. It's a very good airplane for a trainer, and it will have legs even when you get more experience and planes.
The GP Spriit is a bit more labor intensive to build, and really needs some help with its configuration, but as it comes out of the box it's OK.
The Oly II /Riser 100 are largish, and will give a standard hi-start a hernia. :)
I keep going back to the GL and the Spirit for just boring holes in the sky.

RBeach

Sep 24, 2004, 12:27 AM

If you want to know about the Hawk look in this same R/C Groups at The Houston Hawk. It now has over 40,000 hits. I don't think it's the plane for you right now. It will cost you about $600.00 to build. It's one hell of a plane, something to grow into.

Roland Beach

Cyph3r42

Sep 24, 2004, 12:42 AM

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Someday :D

fprintf

Sep 24, 2004, 07:40 AM

Ok, so you chose to ignore the advice on going with a foamie. That's cool, and you have thought through your reasons (most of which I do not agree with, having seen entire summers wasted due to rebuilding efforts) for going with a wood plane. No more convincing from me.

So if you are going to go with a wood plane everything recommended so far has been pretty good. The local fliers around here do not like the Spirit, saying that the only reason it sells well is that it is in the Tower catalog with a big banner saying it won the national championships in '91 or so. That is why I initially mentioned that you should visit the local field and see what people recommend - obviously there are plenty even in this thread who would recommend the Spirit.

I think you have your answers and *all* of the planes fly well, and within your abilities. Personally I like the Lil' Bird 2Meter from Skybench Aerotech and the Chrysalis 2Meter from DJ Aerotech/Mountain Models having seen both fly. I am sure the other planes fly equally well, and honestly I bet you and I cannot tell the difference between how one thermals versus another. Now you just need to buy a plane, build it, get those servos and go flying. Let us know what you end up picking out.

As you are building whatever plane you get, be sure and ask questions when you get stuck. Much like you said with a foam plane, once you cut the wood and glue it things become somewhat permanent and it is a pain in the bum to undo. Measure twice, cut and glue once.

aeajr

Sep 24, 2004, 08:52 AM

There are probably 2 dozen planes that will get solid recommendations. You have a good list.

I like 2M to start because they transport well, store well, fly well and can be launched with light hi-starts in light lift with good results. You don't need a big field and you don't need a powerful winch.

I like foamies for new flyers who are not builders where a small misshap will cause weeks or months of lost air time for repairs. For these people the Foamie is the best route. You sound like you can build and so, if you break it, you can fix it pretty easily, so a balsa floater is a good choice.

RES, Rudder/elevator/spoiler planes are simpler to operate yet can be landed in tight fields with the use of spoilers. With a full house plane, there is more to handle and more to mess up. RES does not equal training wheels. There are 3M R/E ( no spoilers ) planes, like the Bird of Time, that are very popular with very accomplished pilots.

I encourage all new pilots to put locators in their planes as a missed turn at low levels over woods, brush, swamp, etc., can put you into hunt mode for a long long time. A locator will make the plane much easier to find. It is a good $10 -$25 investment and many include battery monitors.

RES planes can be flown on simple 3 channel radios, though I always recommend computer radios if the budget will take it. You can fly for years with RES and grow and become a VERY accomplished pilot. To get really good with any plane will probably take 2 seasons of constant learning. Just cause you can launch it and land it consistantly does not make you a good sailplane pilot. It just makes you an adequate pilot. Take if from an adequate pilot who flies with some very accomplished pilots. These guys focus on one plane for years.

If you are just now learning to fly, keep it simple, give yourself the best chance for success. As your thermal talents grow, you will range the plane out further and go higher. A RES plane is easier to fly near the limit of vision so you are less likely to mess up seriously and lose the plane. The self leveling nature of of the polyhedral wing will allow the plane to fly itself when you are not 100% sure of its orientation. Not so with an aileron plane.

Save the larger, faster, more complex planes for the second plane.

KISS = Keep it simple stupid! A good policy in any new venture!

Pick one, build it, fly it, get good with it! Have the time of your life!

Here ends the sermon!

Cyph3r42

Oct 03, 2004, 06:09 PM

SoCalGliderFlyr

Oct 03, 2004, 09:45 PM

Keep us posted on your "adventure".

Thermals!!!!

-------------------------------------------
www.midwaymodels.com

Cyph3r42

Oct 03, 2004, 10:16 PM

:D Will do.. Can't wait till that box shows up at the door.

gdjsky01

Oct 04, 2004, 02:26 PM

All sermons and messages were well taken... After much careful thought I've decided and purchased for better or worse a Big Bird. Should be coming this week sometime. I can't wait to get started on it.

Thank you all for your input.

If you have a digital camera please create a build thread here on RCgroups. A decent build thread here to help future builders is always worth it's time and effort.

Best of luck!

aeajr

Oct 04, 2004, 07:42 PM

:D Will do.. Can't wait till that box shows up at the door.

Now that you have made your decision, keep posting as you build, or start a new thread for the build and post a link here so we can all follow, and perhaps offer some help.

Funny that the plane you chose was never mentioned in the thread. It must be a perfect fit!

I am a big fan of building stock - However they tell you to do it in the plans, that is the way you should do it. You can "improve" the next plane.

One exception to this would be some minor strengthening. I am sure there are people who will read the build thread who will know that plane and can give you tips on where to add a little something to overcome any perceived weakness. They all have weak points and experience has created standard enhancements for any given plane.

These are not really modifications or deviations from plans. They are things like "add a corner brace here", or "wrap the spar with thread, dental floss or carbon tow". Sometimes these minor additions can make a major difference with virtually no added weight.

If the wing has the option to be built as one piece or two, give serious consideration to a two piece wing. Assuming you will hi-start launch the plane, you are not likely to over stress the wing, even on a strong hi-start. Two piece wings are much easier to transport and store.

My Spirit wing remains two piece. My friend's is one piece. He constantly says he wishes he had left it two piece. Once I put it together I use clear packing tape to "join" the two halves. It is virtually as strong as his one piece wing.

A thought is on placement of the electronics. When I first launched my Spirit, I had to add 4.5 oz of lead to the nose to balance it. Not unusual for this plane when it is built to plans. It flew very well. No complaint at all.

After a serious crash I rebuilt the fuselage and decided to make some changes to see if I could make the plane lighter. I moved the electroncis forward, changed the receiver, and a few other things. Net Net, I reduced the balance weight from 4.5 oz to 1 oz. Big change and the plane flies better than ever. If you are interested I can post some photos of the changes. May give you some ideas.

Also, don't forget to balance the wing. We all focus on the nose to tail balance but often forget to balance the wing. It can make a HUGE difference in how the plane flies. This is especially true on these long winged sailplanes. 1/10 of an ounce on a wing tip can make the difference between a sweet flyer and a plane that just never seems to fly as well as we expected. This has to be done after the covering is on, any servos are mounted in the wings, or any wires or lines have been run for spoilers.

Congratulations on your new plane. :cool:

Enjoy the build! ;)

Share it with all of us in a build thread! :D