NiMH vs. NiCad 7.2

[M78Ultra]

Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6 cell
7.2volt packs?...I have (6)NiCad and (6)NiMH
I am starting to prefer NiCad over the NiMH although I have found pros and
cons for both.
It seems that the NiMH go flat after about 6-12 hours of sitting after
charging.
The NiCad seem to go flat after about 24-48 hours.
The NiMH have a longer stable runtime.
The NiCads have a "burst" and slowly flatten out.
The NiMH are more "fragile" when it comes to charging and heat.
NiCads seem to cool faster and run cooler.
NiMH have the ability to recharge more times.
NiCad seem to charge more efficiently with less "mischarges"
NiMH have no "cell memory" and do not supposedly need to be discharged.
NiCad can get "cell memory" and lose power and also need to be
discharged.( However I have never used a discharger.. as far as I am
concerned an ESC and motor will discharge the battery from use)
Just from my personal experiences..if I were to get more batteries today..I
would probably get NiCad 2400 packs.
Which do you prefer and why?
What have you experienced using both types of packs?

[Dean]

First off - you are missing the MOST important factor - what they are being used
for!

more comments inline

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 01:18:06 GMT, "M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com>
wrote:

>Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6 cell
>7.2volt packs?...I have (6)NiCad and (6)NiMH
>I am starting to prefer NiCad over the NiMH although I have found pros and
>cons for both.

It is hard to generalize. Each specific cell (eg. Golden Peak GP3300) has
different behaviors.

>It seems that the NiMH go flat after about 6-12 hours of sitting after
>charging.
>The NiCad seem to go flat after about 24-48 hours.

Batteries go flat within minutes of end-of-charge. Studies have shown that if
you run your pack within 3 minutes of peaking you will get a higher average
voltage throughout your run. You should never be charging your batteries more
than a half hour in advance for racing.

>The NiMH have a longer stable runtime.
>The NiCads have a "burst" and slowly flatten out.
>The NiMH are more "fragile" when it comes to charging and heat.
>NiCads seem to cool faster and run cooler.

I would agree with this for the most part.

>NiMH have the ability to recharge more times.

Doubtful. I'd say they are pretty equal.

>NiCad seem to charge more efficiently with less "mischarges"

With a quality charger you shouldn't have issues with mischarging. If your
cells are not abused.

>NiMH have no "cell memory" and do not supposedly need to be discharged.
>NiCad can get "cell memory" and lose power and also need to be
>discharged.( However I have never used a discharger.. as far as I am
>concerned an ESC and motor will discharge the battery from use)

From what I know and have experienced but NiMH and NiCad are vulnerable to
"voltage depression" as it was described to me as. Always discharge your packs
for .9v/cell after each use and you will have no issues. Personally I use a
tray and get mine down to about .6v/cell between each run.

>Just from my personal experiences..if I were to get more batteries today..I
>would probably get NiCad 2400 packs.
>Which do you prefer and why?
> What have you experienced using both types of packs?

Right now I like the GP3300's. They are great. The capacity is alot more than
you need for stock class racing, BUT the capacity does help in one respect:
average voltage. Since the cell is only half discharged at the end of a run the
final voltage when you pull the car off the track will be substantially higher
than with a 2000 or 2400 pack.
---
Proud owner of:
Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
Team Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
Team Losi XXX KE <the racer>
http://ripperd.com
email: dean (at) the above domain

[kenji]

In article <iPt_c.5103$ay.674086@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
"M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com> wrote:

> Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6 cell
> 7.2volt packs?..

Are you racing at organized events, or bashing?

[M78Ultra]

Thanks for your response Dean.
I use these batteries for (2) Evaders and an E-Maxx.
No serious racing, just racing with friends.

I simply use a DC Pirahna (deltaV) for the NiMH charging and a MegaPeak for
the NiCad. I run the DC charger off of a 12v deep cell marine battery. (I
then recharge the marine battery overnight with ..whatelse? an AC charger
for 12v DC Batteries..hehe)
I probably will replace this method with Twin Pulse Chargers.
(But for now it's what I have.)

If you are using NiMH packs immediately after charging isn't it common to
short a cell out? I have seen it happen more than once off of a fast charge.
Are you trickle peak charging the latter part of the battery?(whereas it
would cool down some from the fast charge)


"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
news:8jtkj0lsor9t5tugfh399513iua2jveg5t@4ax.com...
> First off - you are missing the MOST important factor - what they are
being used
> for!
>
> more comments inline
>
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 01:18:06 GMT, "M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6 cell
> >7.2volt packs?...I have (6)NiCad and (6)NiMH
> >I am starting to prefer NiCad over the NiMH although I have found pros
and
> >cons for both.
>
> It is hard to generalize. Each specific cell (eg. Golden Peak GP3300) has
> different behaviors.
>
> >It seems that the NiMH go flat after about 6-12 hours of sitting after
> >charging.
> >The NiCad seem to go flat after about 24-48 hours.
>
> Batteries go flat within minutes of end-of-charge. Studies have shown
that if
> you run your pack within 3 minutes of peaking you will get a higher
average
> voltage throughout your run. You should never be charging your batteries
more
> than a half hour in advance for racing.
>
> >The NiMH have a longer stable runtime.
> >The NiCads have a "burst" and slowly flatten out.
> >The NiMH are more "fragile" when it comes to charging and heat.
> >NiCads seem to cool faster and run cooler.
>
> I would agree with this for the most part.
>
> >NiMH have the ability to recharge more times.
>
> Doubtful. I'd say they are pretty equal.
>
> >NiCad seem to charge more efficiently with less "mischarges"
>
> With a quality charger you shouldn't have issues with mischarging. If
your
> cells are not abused.
>
> >NiMH have no "cell memory" and do not supposedly need to be discharged.
> >NiCad can get "cell memory" and lose power and also need to be
> >discharged.( However I have never used a discharger.. as far as I am
> >concerned an ESC and motor will discharge the battery from use)
>
> From what I know and have experienced but NiMH and NiCad are vulnerable to
> "voltage depression" as it was described to me as. Always discharge your
packs
> for .9v/cell after each use and you will have no issues. Personally I use
a
> tray and get mine down to about .6v/cell between each run.
>
> >Just from my personal experiences..if I were to get more batteries
today..I
> >would probably get NiCad 2400 packs.
> >Which do you prefer and why?
> > What have you experienced using both types of packs?
>
> Right now I like the GP3300's. They are great. The capacity is alot more
than
> you need for stock class racing, BUT the capacity does help in one
respect:
> average voltage. Since the cell is only half discharged at the end of a
run the
> final voltage when you pull the car off the track will be substantially
higher
> than with a 2000 or 2400 pack.
> ---
> Proud owner of:
> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> Team Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> Team Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> http://ripperd.com
> email: dean (at) the above domain

[M78Ultra]

Nothing "organized" as of yet.
Just running with a few friends.
I suppose I would have a few different views on batteries if I were doing
this as "competition" ,but as of now just "bashing".

"kenji" <kenji@ripco.com> wrote in message
news:kenji-14D31A.22323204092004@news.ftupet.com...
> In article <iPt_c.5103$ay.674086@twister.southeast.rr.com>,
> "M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6
cell
> > 7.2volt packs?..
>
> Are you racing at organized events, or bashing?

[Dean]

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 03:56:39 GMT, "M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com>
wrote:

>Thanks for your response Dean.
>I use these batteries for (2) Evaders and an E-Maxx.
>No serious racing, just racing with friends.

Yeah, I am a more serious racer. Weekly club races, sometimes 2x a week
depending on my schedule. I also have a few other packs of sanyo 2000's and
1700's for just backyard stuff but I treat them pretty much the same as my race
packs.

>I simply use a DC Pirahna (deltaV) for the NiMH charging and a MegaPeak for
>the NiCad. I run the DC charger off of a 12v deep cell marine battery. (I
>then recharge the marine battery overnight with ..whatelse? an AC charger
>for 12v DC Batteries..hehe)
>I probably will replace this method with Twin Pulse Chargers.
>(But for now it's what I have.)

Well really you should get a 12-14v power supply to plug your chargers into.
The battery is a bad situation all around for wear and tear, not to mention the
gasses given off by the battery (I assume your using this indoors).

>If you are using NiMH packs immediately after charging isn't it common to
>short a cell out? I have seen it happen more than once off of a fast charge.
>Are you trickle peak charging the latter part of the battery?(whereas it
>would cool down some from the fast charge)

Never had anything like a shorted cell. No trickle charging ever. Packs are
still pretty warm when I put them into my car to run. BUT they are only being
ran for 5 minutes, so they don't get any hotter. Then after my race I
immediately put the pack on a discharger/equalizer to get them down to
~.6v/cell. Then once they are there I pull it off the equalizing tray, and let
them air cool (no accelerated cooling!) until I charge it next (around an hour
or so usually).

I have 5 packs of GP3300's, so here is a typical 4 heat then Main race day. I
only use 3 of my 5 packs on any given day, and use a different 3 every race day.

pack1 - charge
pack1 - practice/then discharge
pack2 - charge (while practicing)
pack2 - run in heat 1/ then discharge
pack3 charge (while in heat 1)
pack3 run in heat 2/then discharge
pack1 - charge (while in heat 2)
pack1 - run in heat 3/the discharge
pack2 - charge (while in heat 3)
pack2 - run in heat 4/the discharge
pack3 - charge (while in heat 4)
pack3 - run in MAIN/the discharge

So each pack gets 2 cycles on each race day. I have read many accounts that the
2nd run on a pack in a day tends to have more punch, this is the reason why I
re-use batteries in a day rather than just using each of 5 once. It takes a
little practice to be able to start your charger at just the right time for it
to be done just before your next heat/main. Usually I am within 10 minutes
though. I will re-peak the pack if it is more than 15 minutes though.

-Dean

>"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
>news:8jtkj0lsor9t5tugfh399513iua2jveg5t@4ax.com...
>> First off - you are missing the MOST important factor - what they are
>being used
>> for!
>>
>> more comments inline
>>
>> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 01:18:06 GMT, "M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6 cell
>> >7.2volt packs?...I have (6)NiCad and (6)NiMH
>> >I am starting to prefer NiCad over the NiMH although I have found pros
>and
>> >cons for both.
>>
>> It is hard to generalize. Each specific cell (eg. Golden Peak GP3300) has
>> different behaviors.
>>
>> >It seems that the NiMH go flat after about 6-12 hours of sitting after
>> >charging.
>> >The NiCad seem to go flat after about 24-48 hours.
>>
>> Batteries go flat within minutes of end-of-charge. Studies have shown
>that if
>> you run your pack within 3 minutes of peaking you will get a higher
>average
>> voltage throughout your run. You should never be charging your batteries
>more
>> than a half hour in advance for racing.
>>
>> >The NiMH have a longer stable runtime.
>> >The NiCads have a "burst" and slowly flatten out.
>> >The NiMH are more "fragile" when it comes to charging and heat.
>> >NiCads seem to cool faster and run cooler.
>>
>> I would agree with this for the most part.
>>
>> >NiMH have the ability to recharge more times.
>>
>> Doubtful. I'd say they are pretty equal.
>>
>> >NiCad seem to charge more efficiently with less "mischarges"
>>
>> With a quality charger you shouldn't have issues with mischarging. If
>your
>> cells are not abused.
>>
>> >NiMH have no "cell memory" and do not supposedly need to be discharged.
>> >NiCad can get "cell memory" and lose power and also need to be
>> >discharged.( However I have never used a discharger.. as far as I am
>> >concerned an ESC and motor will discharge the battery from use)
>>
>> From what I know and have experienced but NiMH and NiCad are vulnerable to
>> "voltage depression" as it was described to me as. Always discharge your
>packs
>> for .9v/cell after each use and you will have no issues. Personally I use
>a
>> tray and get mine down to about .6v/cell between each run.
>>
>> >Just from my personal experiences..if I were to get more batteries
>today..I
>> >would probably get NiCad 2400 packs.
>> >Which do you prefer and why?
>> > What have you experienced using both types of packs?
>>
>> Right now I like the GP3300's. They are great. The capacity is alot more
>than
>> you need for stock class racing, BUT the capacity does help in one
>respect:
>> average voltage. Since the cell is only half discharged at the end of a
>run the
>> final voltage when you pull the car off the track will be substantially
>higher
>> than with a 2000 or 2400 pack.
>> ---
>> Proud owner of:
>> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
>> Team Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
>> Team Losi XXX KE <the racer>
>> http://ripperd.com
>> email: dean (at) the above domain
>

---
Proud owner of:
Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
Team Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
Team Losi XXX KE <the racer>
http://ripperd.com
email: dean (at) the above domain

[M78Ultra]

Thanks for the response.....
As far as charging off of the marine battery, it is in a well ventilated
garage and doesn't give off anymore fumes than the common car battery (which
there are two of them there as well).A deep cell battery is much better at
holding a deeper charge and accepting recharges than a common car battery. I
do however take precautions when charging/handling batteries such as gloves
and safety glasses.This is convenient currently and the battery serves other
functions than just for recharging rc batteries. It makes a wonderful jump
starter if needed and is used for trolling motors.
Again though I plan on replacing this method with AC/DC Twin Pulse Chargers.
;
"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
news:cp8mj0h13bku6rlgdlt74ev1ua9cfvc22q@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 03:56:39 GMT, "M78Ultra" <M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks for your response Dean.
> >I use these batteries for (2) Evaders and an E-Maxx.
> >No serious racing, just racing with friends.
>
> Yeah, I am a more serious racer. Weekly club races, sometimes 2x a week
> depending on my schedule. I also have a few other packs of sanyo 2000's
and
> 1700's for just backyard stuff but I treat them pretty much the same as my
race
> packs.
>
> >I simply use a DC Pirahna (deltaV) for the NiMH charging and a MegaPeak
for
> >the NiCad. I run the DC charger off of a 12v deep cell marine battery. (I
> >then recharge the marine battery overnight with ..whatelse? an AC charger
> >for 12v DC Batteries..hehe)
> >I probably will replace this method with Twin Pulse Chargers.
> >(But for now it's what I have.)
>
> Well really you should get a 12-14v power supply to plug your chargers
into.
> The battery is a bad situation all around for wear and tear, not to
mention the
> gasses given off by the battery (I assume your using this indoors).
>
> >If you are using NiMH packs immediately after charging isn't it common to
> >short a cell out? I have seen it happen more than once off of a fast
charge.
> >Are you trickle peak charging the latter part of the battery?(whereas it
> >would cool down some from the fast charge)
>
> Never had anything like a shorted cell. No trickle charging ever. Packs
are
> still pretty warm when I put them into my car to run. BUT they are only
being
> ran for 5 minutes, so they don't get any hotter. Then after my race I
> immediately put the pack on a discharger/equalizer to get them down to
> ~.6v/cell. Then once they are there I pull it off the equalizing tray,
and let
> them air cool (no accelerated cooling!) until I charge it next (around an
hour
> or so usually).
>
> I have 5 packs of GP3300's, so here is a typical 4 heat then Main race
day. I
> only use 3 of my 5 packs on any given day, and use a different 3 every
race day.
>
> pack1 - charge
> pack1 - practice/then discharge
> pack2 - charge (while practicing)
> pack2 - run in heat 1/ then discharge
> pack3 charge (while in heat 1)
> pack3 run in heat 2/then discharge
> pack1 - charge (while in heat 2)
> pack1 - run in heat 3/the discharge
> pack2 - charge (while in heat 3)
> pack2 - run in heat 4/the discharge
> pack3 - charge (while in heat 4)
> pack3 - run in MAIN/the discharge
>
> So each pack gets 2 cycles on each race day. I have read many accounts
that the
> 2nd run on a pack in a day tends to have more punch, this is the reason
why I
> re-use batteries in a day rather than just using each of 5 once. It takes
a
> little practice to be able to start your charger at just the right time
for it
> to be done just before your next heat/main. Usually I am within 10
minutes
> though. I will re-peak the pack if it is more than 15 minutes though.
>
> -Dean
>
> >"Dean" <look@sig> wrote in message
> >news:8jtkj0lsor9t5tugfh399513iua2jveg5t@4ax.com...
> >> First off - you are missing the MOST important factor - what they are
> >being used
> >> for!
> >>
> >> more comments inline
> >>
> >> On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 01:18:06 GMT, "M78Ultra"
<M78Ultra@REMOVEtriad.rr.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Curious as to what experiences/findings everyone here has had with 6
cell
> >> >7.2volt packs?...I have (6)NiCad and (6)NiMH
> >> >I am starting to prefer NiCad over the NiMH although I have found pros
> >and
> >> >cons for both.
> >>
> >> It is hard to generalize. Each specific cell (eg. Golden Peak GP3300)
has
> >> different behaviors.
> >>
> >> >It seems that the NiMH go flat after about 6-12 hours of sitting after
> >> >charging.
> >> >The NiCad seem to go flat after about 24-48 hours.
> >>
> >> Batteries go flat within minutes of end-of-charge. Studies have shown
> >that if
> >> you run your pack within 3 minutes of peaking you will get a higher
> >average
> >> voltage throughout your run. You should never be charging your
batteries
> >more
> >> than a half hour in advance for racing.
> >>
> >> >The NiMH have a longer stable runtime.
> >> >The NiCads have a "burst" and slowly flatten out.
> >> >The NiMH are more "fragile" when it comes to charging and heat.
> >> >NiCads seem to cool faster and run cooler.
> >>
> >> I would agree with this for the most part.
> >>
> >> >NiMH have the ability to recharge more times.
> >>
> >> Doubtful. I'd say they are pretty equal.
> >>
> >> >NiCad seem to charge more efficiently with less "mischarges"
> >>
> >> With a quality charger you shouldn't have issues with mischarging. If
> >your
> >> cells are not abused.
> >>
> >> >NiMH have no "cell memory" and do not supposedly need to be
discharged.
> >> >NiCad can get "cell memory" and lose power and also need to be
> >> >discharged.( However I have never used a discharger.. as far as I am
> >> >concerned an ESC and motor will discharge the battery from use)
> >>
> >> From what I know and have experienced but NiMH and NiCad are vulnerable
to
> >> "voltage depression" as it was described to me as. Always discharge
your
> >packs
> >> for .9v/cell after each use and you will have no issues. Personally I
use
> >a
> >> tray and get mine down to about .6v/cell between each run.
> >>
> >> >Just from my personal experiences..if I were to get more batteries
> >today..I
> >> >would probably get NiCad 2400 packs.
> >> >Which do you prefer and why?
> >> > What have you experienced using both types of packs?
> >>
> >> Right now I like the GP3300's. They are great. The capacity is alot
more
> >than
> >> you need for stock class racing, BUT the capacity does help in one
> >respect:
> >> average voltage. Since the cell is only half discharged at the end of
a
> >run the
> >> final voltage when you pull the car off the track will be substantially
> >higher
> >> than with a 2000 or 2400 pack.
> >> ---
> >> Proud owner of:
> >> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> >> Team Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> >> Team Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> >> http://ripperd.com
> >> email: dean (at) the above domain
> >
>
> ---
> Proud owner of:
> Associated RC10GT <the other basher>
> Team Losi XX "CR" <the basher>
> Team Losi XXX KE <the racer>
> http://ripperd.com
> email: dean (at) the above domain

[kenji]

In article <413b255f$0$19727$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,
Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote:

> the 3300's are just better all around.
> for bashing, you bash longer,
> and for racing you are faster, longer.
> I see no downside.

I looked back at our 2.5 years of running trucks buggies and on road
cars and thought about batteries. There's three of us racing and
bashing. We race about once a week.

I use a Twin Peak Dynamite (charges two packs simultaneously) charger
usually with AC power but sometimes use the 12V deep cycle battery
(trolling motor power source). I also have a mega peak dynamite charger.
Both chargers charge 6 cell packs using linear 4 amps.

I started us on anything inexpensive, which at the time was ebay
purchased used 2400mah NiCD's. Then 3000mah NiMH came out. I bought six
of the stick pack Dynafun 3000, dynamiterc.com. packs. They were great
and worth the 40.00 each I paid for them. We were learning how to race
and getting better each week. Then Gold Peak started marketing
affordable 3300 cells. So at the time I had 2400's, 3000's and had
bought twelve GP3300 cells and made my first packs. The difference
between the 2400/3000's and the 3300's was huge. Yes the 2400's had more
punch, for about two laps of a 13 lap race. But....the 3300's had the
same punch pretty much the entire 5 minute race.

So these days at our off road club, one of my sons is regularly in the B
mains, my youngest son( 6 years old) is at the top of our Rookie Class
and ready to move up, and I'm in regualr C and B mains.

We now have 15 sets of Gold Peak 3300 packs and a few Sanyo 3300's. Most
are matched packs at 1.16V, a few are 1.15v, and a few are 1.17V. I also
still have the Dynamite Dynafun 3000 packs. Yes We see a speed increase
in the higher voltage packs, but for racing off road, higher speed
doesn't make you a better racer until you are way into the A mains at
our club. We race on road some, and the higher spped gained from higher
voltage packs can make a difference for middle of the road racers. For
bashing....the 3300's are great. You get a ton of run time compared to
2400 cells. BUT...the downside of long run times especially with
modified motors is that you wear out the brushes and commutators much
quicker because of the heat. So we don't use our racing motors for
bashing.

These days GP3300 cells have become affordable. I'm buying matched packs
already assembled with Dean's connectors for about 35.00-40.00(US).

[Sny]

M78Ultra wrote:

> Thanks for the response.....
> As far as charging off of the marine battery, it is in a well ventilated
> garage and doesn't give off anymore fumes than the common car battery
> (which there are two of them there as well).A deep cell battery is much
> better at holding a deeper charge and accepting recharges than a common
> car battery. I do however take precautions when charging/handling
> batteries such as gloves and safety glasses.This is convenient currently
> and the battery serves other functions than just for recharging rc
> batteries. It makes a wonderful jump starter if needed and is used for
> trolling motors. Again though I plan on replacing this method with AC/DC

"Deep Cycle" batteries are actually better at surviving complete
discharges. A normal lead acid car battery lose up to 30% capacity if it is
discharged completely. A "deep cycle" battery does not.


--

QUIPd 1.02: (326 of 679)
-> It was so quiet in the bowling alley that you could hear a pin
-> drop...

My photo albums: http://www.pbase.com/sny

[Jonathan Hodgson]

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 09:45:46 -0500, Dean wrote:

>>I simply use a DC Pirahna (deltaV) for the NiMH charging and a MegaPeak for
>>the NiCad. I run the DC charger off of a 12v deep cell marine battery. (I
>>then recharge the marine battery overnight with ..whatelse? an AC charger
>>for 12v DC Batteries..hehe)

> Well really you should get a 12-14v power supply to plug your chargers into.
> The battery is a bad situation all around for wear and tear, not to mention the
> gasses given off by the battery (I assume your using this indoors).

No real problems with this arrangement; as an off-road racer (in the UK,
where off-road tracks tend to be in odd fields behind village halls and
the like, and we pit out of the backs of our cars) I regard this as the
standard.

I've killed a few 'leisure batteries' but last time I did so, invested
in a quality (3-stage) charger along with the new 12V - and that was in
about Summer 2000 IIRC.

Good, smooth DC; no extension cables to drag around, or fighting for
sockets; and portable charging whether I'm racing indoors or out.

Jonny