Keil Kraft Falcon

[Ian Easton]

Just purchased a set of plans for a Keil Kraft Falcon on e-bay. 8ft span - wow :eek:
It should be interesting when they arrive.

Anybody have any photos or comments about the Falcon?

Ian

[Blazer]

Ian-I believe thats the same Falcon as kitted by Ben Buckle. It should be one interesting build. Jim

[tim hooper]

Ian-I believe thats the same Falcon as kitted by Ben Buckle. It should be one interesting build. Jim

Is this the one?

http://www.benbucklevintage.fsbusiness.co.uk/kitlists/larger_kits.htm#falcon

tim

[Gerald]

It would appear to be this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63660&item=5908402578 ;)

The auction listing uses the same photo of the completed model as the one on the Ben Buckle site.

[Ian Easton]

Yup, that's the one. I didn't know it was sold as a kit. I think it's a beauty!

Ian

[Ian Easton]

Does anyone know if this was designed as a free flight model originally or has it always been RC?

[djindivik]

I think you'll find that all of the vintage models were designed built & flown in their original form as free flighters. The flying Quaker was from 1936 i believe, as was the Falcon. I have a 1.5x SCRAM, at 108" span, & powered by an SC91 fs, it was a 1934 design, but it now fut fut's by, quite sedately. Its a joy to fly. As is my Flying Quaker, with the OS 60, early open rocker motor in it, (the first succesful production four stroke i believe). It looks & sounds as though it's steam powered. Oh, you will need to buy up a South East Asian rain forest to get enough balsa to build the Falcon, You will give yourself a hernia trying to pick up the kit box of Ben Buckles Kit, there is so much wood in it. It's A beautiful model, & flies wonderfully too ! Ray

[graham_mca]

Hi Ian... I agree with everything djindivik said. I flew vintage models exclusively for many years back through the late 80's/early 90's the boom years of vintage in England.

Two of my club mates always built the same design... their pair of KK Falcons were magnificent. We typically flew duration events, then called Class 3 and Texaco. Engines were the old .60 OS 4 stroke as above... wish I still had mine, that was back when 4 strokes were gentlemanly things.

I flew a Playboy Senior of 84" span and although lighter I had a hard time staying with the Falcons. I could oh so easily get back into vintage... you will love it Ian.

Graham

[Ian Easton]

The plans arrived yesterday and they're terrific. I'll give you guys a heads up and tell you that you better start buying stock in balsa companies for this one! That's not insider trading is it? I'd better ask Martha Stewart ;)

Ian

[Ian Easton]

I forgot to mention; the plans don't show any RC equipment or movable control surfaces so they must be copies of the original KK FF design (which I'm really pleased about).

Ian

[Ian Easton]

So - electric or IC what should I do? I have a 52 fourstroke that I would like to put in it; what electric set up would fly this behemoth?

[Jim Robinson]

Ian,
That .52 4-stroke would certainly be a neat way to go, although it seems like it may be a little light for a model of that size. I really don't have any experience with models like this though, and I know lots of people powered the big Quakers with 2 stroke .40s and loved them. If you built it light (is there any other way?) it would probably be a great floater. Have you cut any wood yet? Personally I'd like to build a scaled down version of that bird for IPS power, but that's mostly because smaller models are better suited to my flying area. It is a good looker, that's for sure. Good luck and hurry up with some build pictures :) !

Jim

[vintage1]

.52 4 stroke isn't really that much of a powerhouse - probably well under a horsepower.

Big geared brushed motor is pobably the cheapest way to go. Tom hunt has some interstng combos in that area - I like belts conceptually anyway - quiet and whirry rather than whiny. If you see what I mean. And noseweight from a big ferrite lump is probably easier than climbing up on the church roof to nick the flashing...

http://www.modelairtech.com/belt.html#h1000fw

Choice of single, or twin de Walt motors drives, or astro 60 geared ....

[djindivik]

Although i am an avid electric fan (pardon the pun), I think i would be putting a large 4 stroke or a big petrol (gas) sparker in the Falcon. Purely to 'conform' to the era. Alternatively I think you will need a very big brushless to power it, something like an AXI 4130. Ray

[vintage1]

Outrunners would need to be geared anyway - these things presumably swing big props slow.

The spirit of the age would be a sparker. And no radio. Covered in silk, made of split cane...how far do you want to go?

I simply like light slow models and whatever it takes to get them in the air :D

[vintage1]

Outrunners would need to be geared anyway - these things presumably swing big props slow.

The spirit of the age would be a sparker. And no radio. Covered in silk, made of split cane...how far do you want to go?

I simply like light slow models and whatever it takes to get them in the air :D

[Gerald]

Ian, what is the original spark motor specified on the plans? If it was a .60 size then your .52 has many times more horsepower than the original. Also, the original ignition powered model had to carry the extra weight of an ignition coil, battery, cutoff timer, etc. so with R/C gear yours would probably weigh comparably. The .52 would therefore fly the plane with much more authority than the original.

[Ian Easton]

The plans show a "Dennymite" and says "any diesel or petrol engine 10-15cc"
I agree that my 52FS wouldn't have a problem with this one and I think it's the way I'll go. Next choice: Free flight or RC!

[vintage1]

build it RC and don't touch the sticks unless it looks like flying away ?

[Ian Easton]

Vintage,

That's two votes for RC as my wife said the same thing as you.

[bolmas]

Freeflight With A Big Slow Revving Sparkie Up Front!!

I Have An Ohlsson 60 And It Runs With The Slowest Sweetest Tickover You Have Ever Heard!!

[Gerald]

Does it look something like this? ;)

What size prop do you use on your Ohlsson?

[bolmas]

certainly does, i dont have it in a model but it runs on a 14x6 wooden prop.

[Ian Easton]

Gerald,

You wouldn't mind if I borrowed that engine would you :rolleyes:

It would look really good - I'd even put your name on the side of the cowl as an official sponsor :)

[bolmas]

i wouldnt lend it out, but its for sale. rebuilt using brand new parts, complete with plug and test run on the bench £100

[grybeard]

Just purchased a set of plans for a Keil Kraft Falcon on e-bay. 8ft span - wow :eek:
It should be interesting when they arrive.

Anybody have any photos or comments about the Falcon?

Ian
I bid on that plan, no time to build yet, too many other projects on the go.
The KK Falcon was free flight, I wanted to establish when it was available from KK. I looked at some old KK catalogues (hard to date but Two Shillings and Sixpence) and though they had early digital propo gear they also listed rubber driven escapements and the Super Sixty. The Falcon had already fallen from the list. My recollection was that they were available in the 50s and were free flight.As to power, that depends on what you want to do with the model. The Junior Sixty was definately underpowered with an ED 2cc but a Competition Special was considered just enough. An ED Racer was plenty powerful enough. We flew largely when it was windless, early am or just before dusk, that way it was calm. I would think that a modern .40 Glow would be plenty powerful for a KK Falcon. I know however that modern fliers would want to fit a .60 Glow.

[Ian Easton]

I think I have an Aeromodeller from 1947 that shows it - I'll check again though.

[mike etheridge]

Just purchased a set of plans for a Keil Kraft Falcon on e-bay. 8ft span - wow :eek:
It should be interesting when they arrive.

Anybody have any photos or comments about the Falcon?

Ian

Ian, I have just bought a Falcon on E-bay. I can remember the Falcon indicated on an early keil kraft models list I had when I was about 12 years old. (1959) but it was not available at that time. There was also another large model indicated but I cannot remember its name. it was bigger than the Southerner or Junior 60

The Falcon which is nylon covered and weighs 7lb 7oz without engine or radio fitted. it will probably chug around the sky much the same as the Junior 60 is my guess

[williame3590]

I have a OS 60 open rocker in mine with loads of power. The 52 would be just as powerful as the old 60 with even more rpm's. The fuse of the Falcon is kind of neat being round and the stab and main wing just dwarf the fuselage. Excellent flyer and must have a four stroke up front ;) have fun with it....Bill

[john gibbs]

Hi Ian,
Have you built the falcon yet? I used to be the fetcher for the local model shop owner's falcon back in the mid 50s, furthest fetch was about 5 miles out.
In 2003 I retired and a friend built me the ben buckle kit covered with solartex and with a laser 70 four stroke up front. This gives the model a very steep climb and I had to use about 8 degrees of down thrust to sort it.
It flies beautifully and this year is the only year since then that I haven't flown it, reason being I have a Southerner Major that I've re-engined with a saito 62 and I just love that shape.
I also have a junior 60 with an os 26 fs, a Black Magic with another 26, a windy aint it ( a plan built model, shoulder winged) with another 26 that I haven't flown since putting the engine in.
I'll see if I can get a few pictures to upload.

[jamie5555]

Beautiful! I love this design. I was trying to find plans for this massive plane, but to no avail? Anybody know where I can find them? Many thanks.

Jamie

[Ian Easton]

John,
No I haven't built it yet.

Jamie,

I have plans if you need a copy. I think I bought mine on E-bay but I can make you a copy if need be.

[AllanK]

I think you'll find that all of the vintage models were designed built & flown in their original form as free flighters. The flying Quaker was from 1936 i believe, as was the Falcon. I have a 1.5x SCRAM, at 108" span, & powered by an SC91 fs, it was a 1934 design, but it now fut fut's by, quite sedately. Its a joy to fly. As is my Flying Quaker, with the OS 60, early open rocker motor in it, (the first succesful production four stroke i believe). It looks & sounds as though it's steam powered. Oh, you will need to buy up a South East Asian rain forest to get enough balsa to build the Falcon, You will give yourself a hernia trying to pick up the kit box of Ben Buckles Kit, there is so much wood in it. It's A beautiful model, & flies wonderfully too ! Ray


Hi, Scram and Quaker are both on my to build list, any chance of some photos and details about yours?
Thanks
Allan

[jamie5555]

Jamie,

I have plans if you need a copy. I think I bought mine on E-bay but I can make you a copy if need be.[/QUOTE]


Ian:

Yes, please I would love a set of plans for this beautiful bird!

Many thanks! My e-mail is: jcolen28@comcast.net

Jamie

[mike etheridge]

15-10-2007,

I received this information from the person I purchased the Falcon from:
Hello Mike,

You have been busy! Well done! I am slightly envious now. The history of the Falcon that I am aware of is that Eddie Keil struck some sort of deal with American Ben Shereshaw for permission to produce his 96 inch 'Cloud Cruiser' as the Falcon as the largest in a set of three kits for Keil Kraft. The others were the 44 inch Scorpion (modified wing construction but same eliptical planform as 'The Answer' designed by American 'Scottie' Murray who was killed flying for the RAF in WW2) The Answer had a sparless, multi rib 'Ritz' wing and Eddie changed this on the Scorpion to conventional rib and spar construction to get round a copyright issue. The second kit was the very successful Junior 60 by Englishman Albert Hatfull. For these kits a range of petrol spark ignition engines was to be made available, the K3 (3.2cc), K6 (6cc) and K9.The kits duly went into production starting with the Scorpion in 1944, but of the petrol engines, only the K6, to suit the Junior 60 andshown on the plan, appeared in 1946. It was beautifully made for a production engine but Eddie Keil took the secret of who produced it to his grave.Some have speculated that it could have been Harry Kemp, famous for his 'K' diesels ( Vulture, Kestrel, etc) .
The Falcon really deserves to have an appropriate R/C engine, so if you want the OS 70 Surpass I showed you, perhaps we can complete the deal we spoke of? I was thinking we could perhaps meet on the road somewhere about half distance to save messing about with Royal Mail. Let me know what you think.

Regards,

Rich

[Applehoney]

All 100% correct; the man knows his KeilKraft.... The K6 was indeed a nicely built engine, I owned a used one back in the late 40's but only ran it glow. I do believe prototype(s) K9 were built, when collecting ign. engines in the 70s I spent some effort into tracking one down but the venture proved fruitless .. as did the .60 briefly advertised by Veron; Phil Smith swore there was no such animal until I sent him a photocopy of the AM advert .. never replied after that.

[RFJ]

The history of the Falcon that I am aware of is that Eddie Keil struck some sort of deal with American Ben Shereshaw for permission to produce his 96 inch 'Cloud Cruiser' as the Falcon as the largest in a set of three kits for Keil Kraft.


That is the story I heard - here a couple of shots of my Cloud Cruiser for comparison. The main change was the use of a bigger fin on the Falcon, probably to improve take offs which are a bit squirrely with the Cloud Cruiser.

Power as you can see is an old open rocker OS. Lovely engine and more than enough power.

Ray

[mike etheridge]

RJF,

Nice photos of Cloud Cruiser---you can see the similarities.

So far I have taken the Falcon once to my flying club field at Sheerness Kent. I had trouble with the engine running as the old tank was gummed up,so the plane did not fly. I have fitted a Merco 49 for now, which was once owned by champion flyer Chris Olsen of 'Uproar' fame. I will flush the tin-plate tank out some time in the future and try again.

MJE

[mike etheridge]

Following my earlier information on the Falcon, there is currently an advertisement on E-bay for a KK Scorpion one of the trio Junior 60,Falcon and the Scorpion produced in the 1940's. With just a few hours to go it would seem the kit offered on E-bay has bids in excess of £160. Picture below illustrates the KK Scorpion box.

MJE

[mike etheridge]

The Falcon has at last flown and proved to be very stable and easy to handle.

It drew some attention I suppose due to its size and was quite capable of flying both forwards and backwards in the stiff breeze on 30-08-2008 at Bartons Point Sheerness.

I will attach photos.

[williame3590]

Excellent........thanks for the pics. I have'nt flown my Cloud Cruiser this year as of yet but will put her up in the next week or so. I will bring a camera or someone will.......Doooooon(Tinman) your camera works great :D

[Palmettoflyer]

These are beautiful planes and the pictures are great!

Does anyone have any updated info about the plans for the KK Falcon? The links at the front of this thread are old and don't work. Does anyone have an electronic version of the plans?

thanks,
Palmettoflyer

[RFJ]

http://www.radicalrc.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=153

http://www.benbucklevintage.com/