TD contest attendance trends?

[Sled Driver]

The purpose of this thread is to collect observations of TD contest attendance trends across the nation to test the hypothesis that TD contest attendance is decreasing.

Here is my observation:

I fly in Pacific Northwest. There is a regional organization call the Northwest Soaring Society (NWSS) that promotes TD contest soaring (http://www.northwestsoaringsociety.org). In my opinion, attendance at NWSS TD events has and is continuing to drop and we see very few new pilots entering the TD contest scene.

What is happing in your region or club?

Jay Decker
Kennewick, WA

[tom43004]

I'd say that here in the midwest we're pretty stable.

We lose a couple of guys every couple of years but there always seem to be new faces to make it up.

Unlimited TD may even be up a bit. HLG/DLG is tough though... maybe slipping some. RES seems to be popular for whatever reason.

I'm sure somebody else will chime in...

Tom Siler
Columbus, OH

[dephela]

I haven't been to a TD event in a long time. I looked at the results for the last LISF event and there were far fewer entries than when I was going to it.

Dennis

[BMatthews]

I took 12 or 13 years off from TD flying to spend time with the free flight Old Timer crowd because I knew they would not be around for long (and sadly this had come to pass we've lost so many fine modelers and just plain (plane?) good people over the past few years). With the lack of free flighting lately I decided to drop in on the old TD crowd just a couple of weeks ago down in Mt Vernon Washington. I saw mostly the old faces from years gone by that had only aged a bit. New faces were few and far between. From a typical entry of 40 or so it was down to 15 to 17 flyers. When asked the CD said that was pretty typical these days with average entries between 15 to 25.

Out of what used to be a very active Vancouver BC club there was ONE member down for this contest. The rest have all burned out and are flying slope and aerotow scale or gone electric assist.

I think the pressure to perform and the "apparent" requirement to have a super expensive super ship in order to be competitive has driven lots of folks away from the sport. Add in the ease of flying an electric assist sailplane that does not need to take up a whole field with rubber and line or heavy winches and line and it's obvious where the sport fliers have gone.

Is it any wonder the RES and Woodie (mostly RES I would imagine) fun meets/flyins are gaining favour? I liken this turn of events to the AMA Fast Combat event. It's gotten to where only the serious folks with deep pocket books can afford to compete or have the seriousness and drive to reach that far.

PS: this sure is a timely question. I was considering asking the same thing myself jus the other night but it was late enough that my brain was mush so I put it off.

[Sled Driver]

... New faces were few and far between. From a typical entry of 40 or so it was down to 15 to 17 flyers. When asked the CD said that was pretty typical these days with average entries between 15 to 25.

This is consistent with my observations.

... Out of what used to be a very active Vancouver BC club there was ONE member down for this contest. The rest have all burned out and are flying slope and aerotow scale or gone electric assist.

Most of the guys that I've talked to who used to fly TD and don't anymore, have indicated that they are now more interested in electric, scale and/or slope. And, a lot of new pilots I've meet are interested in electric, slope and HLG/DLG, and don't have any interest in TD.

... I think the pressure to perform and the "apparent" requirement to have a super expensive super ship in order to be competitive has driven lots of folks away from the sport.

In my opinion, the perception that having to purchase a high dollar, high performance Euro-plastic plane to be competitive has hurt TD more than anything else. The worst thing is that this perception is untrue. High dollar Euro-plastic is not needed to win AMA TD contests -- the launch does not require it, the in flight speeds don't merit molded plane performance and TD specific designed planes land better (I would bet that average landing scores have dropped a little since Euro-plastic became prevalent, but I don't have the data to prove it.).

Jay Decker
Kennewick, WA

[WGH]

I would love to compete in TD contest, only problem is I live in NE Iowa and have to travel so far to compete. I also don't have any fields big enough for a winch so I don't have any experience with them, heck I don't have a field big enough stretch out a big hi-start.

[11b2c]

I second Bmatthews' opinion. With the high-performance sailplanes there seems to be a great rift between skill requirements and sailplane performance amongst average weekend RC glider guiders. At a prominent club fly here in the south I recently saw several high performance TD gliders flying whose pilots who, for whatever reason (more than likely lack of energy management or cross-control capability in their computer radio setup), could not figure out how to make their sailplanes turn in less than a 50 foot radius. Not good for consistently nailing thermals to speck-out, even down here in the south.

Imagine buying a $600 dollar glider because you thought it would give you the edge in competition or just teach you about the basics of thermalling, then finding out it is too complex/tiring to perfect. Talk about de-motivating. No wonder people gravitate towards the cheaper and surefire allure of electrics.

I've been flying RC gliders for about 10 years now and I still learn stuff, almost daily, from my high performance Gentle Lady. I say "high performance" because I have specked it out several times on days where you would have thought it impossible to soar. I recently had a flight of about 1 hour with it on a day so overcast I could not see my own shadow.

[CactusJackSlade]

Just attended the Spring Fling in the Sacramento/Davis area of California and I think attendence is down... but I am new and don't know for sure how many people were here last year although I was there too...

I do think that other R/C interests have wooed people away.

I also like electric. I think if you promoted an Electric half time event - pylon racing, 3D demo's etc you might draw more pilots.

I also think what monkeytumble and you others have said is on spot too: The feeling that you have to have a high dollar rig to do any good.

Next TD contest i'm bringing my foamie full house ship http://www.foaminfusion.com/EPP2MTD.html and see how I do against the big dollar ships! At least I'll be able to dive it in from 10+ feet without worry of damage - this will most certainly help ME at my skill level! Are you allowed a 1 foot spike on the nose of your plane??!! :D

I do again think that electric sail planes have taken folks away a bit too.... so why not have an electric class too? I've been into several sports/hobbies that have dwindled, when that happens I think you need to start combining (if possible) more types of classes, increase the over all attendence and keep the R/C "core" alive.

Just my humble opinion!

CJS

[birdofprey]

I am attending the Gamblers Gala in Reno in~1-1/2 weeks, and currently there are 46 pilots signed up to attend. This is year # 2 of the event and it is growing.

I would hope to see more large events held during the year. The reason being, that I see the activity in local club contests increase just before a large event. That activity seems to diminish quickly after the conclusion of the large event due to no continuing reasons for the local flyers to continue to practice. More large events scattered during the year (in any given region of the country) would, IMHO, spur local level contest attendance and help to bring in new flyers due to the increased activity.

When I attend the Reno event, I will be flying my well used Genie, and I intend to be competitive with the euro trash/plastic at a fraction of the cost. Quality piloting skills are far more impressive to me, than an expensive TD ship. That is the very reason I will be flying my RES Sagita 600 in the 2M class as well.

As mentioned, by CJS and others, some electric events held at the TD contests will help to stir interest by exposing the TD and non TD flyers to each other, and their respective disciplines.

I have been a TD pilot since I got started in the sport more than 20 years ago. I still consider myself a TD pilot even though I design and manufacture electric kits. From my viewpoint, I see a lot of opinion from both groups of flyers that it is an us-against-them attitude. I also think that many electric flyers see us (for the most part) as kind of dull/stale type of pilots. Efforts to bridge these gaps have got to be made.

My local club (CASL) was founded about 20 years ago as a soaring club. Over the years, it has grown to include electrics. It has grown to the point that it is about 75/25% electric/glider. This did start to cause conflict between the groups. Both saw the other group as kind of in the way of their own facet of the hobby. We have since made a conscious effort to include the electric and sailplane groups in projects that benefit both groups, and at this year’s annual contest, the Southwest Classic, we had record numbers of electric-only pilots as event staff. This seems to have helped to bridge some of the gap. We have also started to have monthly LMR contest that have sparked the interest of both electric-only and glider-only flyers to attend, and is also starting to bridge the divide between the groups.

I love the traditional TD contest, but to many spectators they come of as rather dull, and that can reflect on the sport unintentionally. The sometimes goofy electric contest at a TD event, such as pylon racing, or Slo-Stic combat Etc, can help to bring in new and younger flyers to the TD fold by showing them that we can have fun in the same ways that they find enjoyable.

Sorry to ramble, and I hope I made at least a little sense.

Thanks,

Justin

[tom43004]

I have to jump back in here.

I think that many people have the perception that moldies have ruined the sport. The same people thought that the Falcon 880 and computerized radios ruined it in 1990. Those same people thought that the Windsong and mechanical crow ruined it in 1985. I'm pretty sure that it was the same crowd griping about the Sagitta before that, and the Aquila, and Viking, etc. Pilots win contests, not airplanes. Top pilots will typically outfit themselves with good equipment so that they are able to eek out that extra 1 or 2% of performance to beat other top pilots. Good pilots with mediocre equipment will finish in the wood most days. Mediocre pilots with great airplanes will finish in the middle of the pack on most days, seldom at the top.

I'm also a professional bowler part time. Bowling balls and easier lane conditions have "ruined" bowling according to many. I drill hundreds of bowling balls for PBA members and can tell you that the same guys win tournaments now that won them with rubber and urethane balls. Mediocre bowlers with great equipment will finish in the middle of the pack on most days, seldom at the top. The bowlers with talent (not necessarily equipment) win.

Carbon shafts and titanium clubs have "ruined" golf if you listen to the critics. Again, mediocre golfers will hit the ball further into the rough with great equipment... and finish in the middle of the pack on most days, seldom at the top.

I took 8 years off of flying. When I left, I was flying a Camano and a Prism Vtail. When I came back, I jumped into molded ships so that I could be competitive if I flew well. I had occasion to fly my Prism-V against many molded ships that were 10 years newer. I didn't have the ranging ability that I do with a moldie, but I didn't have too much trouble making time and getting landings either. I have learned more about flying contests in the past two years of being back than I ever learned in 10 years of flying prior to my "extended leave." I am a better pilot now, even if my equipment isn't the best...

I fly contests because I love the competition. Win, lose, or draw. Folks that I fly against are the same way. We change ships here and there, and the ranks never really shift much. I can fly an Icon or a Psyko or a Viking and I'll end up around the same spot in the ranks with any of the three. Ten years ago if we had a level V contest (20 pilots) we would typically have five or six people that had a realistic chance of winning on any given day. Five or six more have good airplanes and radios but aren't capable of making good reads on the air, or aren't consistent enough in the landing circle to post good scores round after round. Still another five or six pilots were flying just because they like to fly and there happens to be a contest at the field that day. Add in a couple of newbies just trying to get up and down without busting stuff and you had a contest field. I think it is very similar today. Same mix, maybe some different faces.

The one difference that I see now though is that people are more willing to travel for a weekend of flying. I travel all over the eastern US for HL and TD contests and I wouldn't trade the friendships and experiences for anything. I recently hosted a HL contest here in Ohio that drew pilots from 5 states. Only two pilots from Ohio flew on Saturday and four on Sunday. Is that a reduction in flying here? Maybe the locals didn't think they could compete with the "big boys" so they didn't come out. I personally think that they missed two beautiful days of flying with great pilots in their own back yard.

To me it looks like some things have never changed.

Tom Siler
Columbus, OH

[Fast-Forward]

I started soaring about 2 years ago. I started out with an electric but, soon aspired to soar. My first few contests were flown with a Wipa Bessy 2m R/E, and Kummerow Searcher 2.5m R/E/S (which I eventually bought the full house wing for). These two planes weren’t cheap but they were reasonable compared to a high end competition sailplane. The Searcher wasn’t competitive in my hands but, in others hands it is. I never placed well until I bought a used 3m Mantis ($300). I flew it at the End of Season in Reading, PA and I placed. Last year I bought the parts to assemble an Aegea Mantis. I wouldn’t consider it very expensive considering two people hand built the components. The total cost of the components is around $600 which I consider very reasonable. I’ve flown it at LASS and LISF contests this year and it’s really sweet. My only decision to purchase the Manti was due to the overwhelming knowledge in building, setup, and repair in our club. Most of the guys who travel to the contests fly Manti. Additionally, contest flying isn’t cheap. On average, it costs about $200 per contest weekend. I really enjoy contest flying and I don’t understand why other club members don’t participate in on the road contest flying. I suppose some people think that their not good enough or they don’t have the time. Contests do take time and there is a certain amount of risk involved. Maybe some find soaring to boring. Also, with the advent of cheap electronics, batteries, and ARFs, maybe people are content with mastering electric models. I’d guess there’s a certain breed of people who enjoy the competition and friendship that soaring offers. It’s certainly not very popular here on the east coast. The west coast guys have it made. They have the weather, flying sites, and plenty of sunlight. Heck, most of the people who’ve talked to me while I was HLing had never seen a R/C sailplane. Let’s face it, RC flying isn’t so popular and it’s presumed to be fairly complex. Have you ever tried to explain to someone the concepts of soaring and get a total blank look in response? Unfortunately, soaring is not very popular and it’s up to us to keep it alive.

Jeff

[sailhigh]

I can only speak for myself. I used to be a very active competition flyer in the late eighties and early ninties. I attended most of the contest in Northern and Central California. We used to get huge turn outs at most events. What finally caused me to leave the TD contest scene was the long drive/wait time to flying time ratio. I used to drive between 1.5 to 3 hours to a contest (depending on location) and then wait most day for my name to be called to fly the three or four rounds, and then drive all the way back home. Even if I got all of my time in the 3,5,7 & 9 minutes rounds (not common), that would be a max. of 24 minutes of flying for a whole day of driving and waiting. Very frustrating.
I slowly drifted toward slope flying where I could fly as long as I wanted, whenever I wanted. I've been enjoying this aspect of soaring for the last ten years and have never looked back. Again, just my experience.

Sean

[Fast-Forward]

Slope soaring is a blast. I can only wish that I had more sloping time.

For the east coast ESL (http://www.flyesl.com) TD circuit we regularly drive at least 5-7 hours to get to contests. A majority of the contests that we attend are west of Massachusetts. Three are in PA and two are on Long Island, NY. Almost every contest that's on the road has about 6 rounds and I'd guess a total of 50-60 minutes of flying if you max all your times. The attendance seems steady here and the turnout is manageable. This weekends contest (http://www.flyesl.com/contest_registration/registration_list.asp?cid=10) there's 32 contestants signed up. 11 are Sportsman and 21 are Expert. There may be more contestants at the field but, I consider it to be a good turnout. I couldn't imagine a contest being "Fun" with 60-70 pilots. Maybe it would but, I like the fairly fast pace of the existing format. I've heard the NATs can have 100 or so pilots. How much "Fun" is that? I'm sure it's fun and I plan on attending within the next couple of years. For those who love to compete there's no obstacles.

Have you seen Gordy lately?

[nuevo]

$200 per weekend?? You must eat/sleep real nice compared to me. Do you share a room? Hotel/gas/food is the biggest cost of competing out of town. The contest fees are nothing after the travel costs are factored in.

The NATS in the US is a HUGE amount of fun. "Summer camp for glider pilots" is what one of my friends calls it. Give it a try.

Meeting and seeing friends is about 50% of the reason I go to contests. Competition is the other.

Big contests are lots of fun too. More chances to meet new friends. No downsides to it. You have a little more time between rounds to socialize. Usually I fly and time for others, so my schedule is pretty full.

[Bernie Wolfard]

Jay,

Do you think it is not just TD contests but RC glider flying is down overall? I have always thought that glider pilots were as different from power pilots (fuel and electric) as sailboaters are from powerboaters. Of course many do both but there has always been a much smaller percentage of those who prefer not to depend on large bladed cuisinarts to get around. Personally, I find that by attaching a motor to a glider most of the challenge of soaring is gone and I get bored. I also get bored quickly polishing ridges.

I think that many are put off by the idea of flying in contests. I don’t understand this sentiment so I am not the one to come up with ideas on how to get more people over this prejudice. I have tried to get good but non-competitive pilots to fly in a contest and I always get the idea that they feel if they don’t or aren’t capable of winning what’s the point. Of course that is the point, it is a challenge to get good enough to have a chance at winning and even then there is no guarantee. The only guarantee about flying in a contest is that every time you do it you will become a better pilot. As to equipment, bad or dated equipment will make you a better pilot but not a winner. On the otherhand, if you arn't good enough, you can't buy a win. But good airplanes, moldie or otherwise, are more fun to fly. They are also more expensive. Hmm . . .

The local club members here seem to think that the number of sailplane flyers ebbs and flow and currently we are in a ebb period. I don’t know if this is true, but I think it behooves all of us to be ambassadors to the sport and encourage others to try sailplanes and contest flying.

So that no one gets the wrong idea, I fly electric power a lot, to go really fast or to get better at 3D maneuvers. I just don’t especially like motors on my sailplanes. These are either poor powerplanes or sailplanes with training wheels.

Bernie

[Fast-Forward]

Ok, it goes like this....

100 for Friday and Saturday night motel room (sharing room)
20 for Saturday and Sunday breakfast (we get the bill and divide it by people eating)
60 for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday dinner wit a beer or two(If I'm lucky, same deal, we get the bill and divide it by people eating)
25-35 for gas (for the BIG Ford Expedition and I usually do the driving)
30 for two days of registration
235-245 Total

Ok, maybe a little bit more than 200 but, close enough. Hmmmm....If I don't go to two contest's then I could afford an XP-4........naw, I'll go to the contest.

[Sled Driver]

Do you think it is not just TD contests but RC glider flying is down overall?

I don't know what is going on. I suspect that several phenomena are converging to affect both the total number of people involved in radio control “soaring” (specifically not including electrics) and the distribution of people in different types of soaring. Here’s what I think is going on in RC soaring (not including electrics) from my perspective in the Pacific Northwest:

1. The total RC soaring population is remaining relatively constant, or possibly declining at a slow rate.
2. The average age of the RC soaring population is significantly higher than the national average and increasing.
3. Overall TD contest attendance has and will probably continue to decrease.
4. More of the “new/younger” soaring pilots tend to participate in HLG/DLG and slope flying, rather than TD.
5. There might be a growing tendency for some of the “mature/older” pilot to develop more of an interest in scale.
6. Soaring clubs are not successfully promoting RC soaring and developing new members. I don’t blame the clubs and I’m not saying that they aren’t trying. The question in my mind regarding this host of issues is “do the same techniques still work today?”.
7. An increased pace of life, economic uncertainty and other cultural changes have reduce the number of people who can or want to take up a hobby, like RC soaring, and amount of time they would have to invest in such a hobby.

The real question in my mind is this just an “ebb”, a redistribution in the population’s activity or a long term decline in RC soaring…

Jay Decker
Kennewick, WA

[tom43004]

It's just an ebb. Soaring is too much fun to suffer a long-term fade like professional baseball, curling , and lawn darts have :p

As for the "summer camp" as the Chicago boys call it, I wouldn't miss Nats for any amount of money. I don't even care if I fly two five minute rounds a day... I'd still go. It's too much fun to hang out with guys that I see once a year and shoot the :eek: about airplane stuff over a few exotic brews.

Tom Siler
Columbus, OH

[AcintSpec]

TMSS recently held their 21st Annual Contest in Petersburg, VA. Used to hold them in Chesapeake but was considered to far east to travel so.... This year we had 21 pilots for Sat and 17 for Sunday. Is attendance down? Yes. Compared to last year it is up. Compared to many years ago, way down. Our youngest competitor was 16, our oldest, a WWII bomber pilot, so you can see we had a wide range of experience and ages.

We had Gemini, Paragons, a Wind Song, AVA and moldies competing against each other. The moldies won out but the pilots who won could do so with almost any plane because they seem to get a lot of air time in, so I don't think it is equipment oriented either.

As far as getting younger people involved in the sport, it is hard to hold their interest in this age of instant gratification. As an example, I have 3 grandsons. Only 1 has shown a mild interest in flying but more so in building planes. Of course he is now at the age where career (cop), $$$, opposite sex, car, etc. seem to have a higher priority. Patience may be the key here. I remember trying to learn about flying as a youngster. All are good at video games which are cheaper to crash than a plane and gear though.

Had some RC gear while in San Diego and the Navy but never really learned how to fly until after I retired from the Navy some 30 plus yaers later. Still learning to this day and enjoying it more and more. How do we attract the younger pilot???? GOK. It ain't cheap to begin with but we try to encourage those that come out to watch with a buddy box flight or 2. Seems like there is always an old plane around to fix up they can fly and an old radio that still works.

My buck 3 eighty and a quarter on the subject.

Regards,
Gene

[fprintf]

This is a very interesting conversation. As a relatively new pilot I have always found it disappointing to hear how big the contests were "in the day", and that there were contests locally run with just histarts at two or three of the local fields with quite a lot of participation. Now we have 3 hour drives to get to the closest contest, so it takes quite a bit of motivation just to get there.

I love it, though. Apparently I am a social flier as I enjoy flying with other people much more than flying alone. I have met all kinds of great people at these contests and it makes it so worthwhile. I am trying to do my part by patiently explaining RC soaring as I understand it to everyone who comes out to the field, co-workers, friends, whatever.

I think some of the local guys are doing it right, though. They are actively encouraging participation in free-flight with the kids. http://www.eliwhitney.org/wilbur/ It starts with free flight, and then occasionally they'll get a demo after the days events of an RC electric or hand launch glider, and then some of the older kids will get one of their own. I don't know if any of them have become more heavily involved in RC, but I cannot imagine that this isn't a fantastic breeding ground for new participant.

[Bernie Wolfard]

Jay,

I tend to agree with you about overall trends except, because I think soaring is always and will always be a small subset of RC flying with a somewhat unique attraction. I really think we are seeing a dip rather than a long-term trend. I think that electrics have really upset the RC status quo and when they shake out a little soaring will again start to grow. The reasoning behind my thinking is that electric assist soaring is a bigger part of electrics overall than it ever was with fuel. Electric assist soaring is also much more prevalent in the mainstream electric magazines and electric flier’s consciousness in general. I think F3J is a better lead into pure soaring than is available in the fuel world. At some point the F3J folks have to get tired of trying to land with a load of batteries or soaring with full ballast all the time.

If I am correct then the entry point to soaring will be different than it has been in the past. This will require an adaptation on the part of the old time soaring pilots but I am sure they can accommodate this change.

I also think Stuart’s, who is a relative newcomer to soaring but a knowledgeable RCGroups user, comments are important. I think he might represent the new bread of RC Soaring pilot. And as he says; the best part of glider competition is the group aspect of it, the gathering of like minded individuals to share fun and information, not the actual competition. However, competition is one of the best excuses to get together.

Bernie

[BMatthews]

....I think soaring is always and will always be a small subset of RC flying with a somewhat unique attraction.....

Compared to the vast number of pure sport fliers I agree. But when I attended the US Nats in Richland back in '89 the glider events had by far the largest number of entrants. And I'm talking about pilot's names only. RC Pattern was the next largest entry list but it was only about 1/2 the number of entries in any of the soaring events IIRC. From that I think it's safe to say that soaring WAS a mass movement within modelling a decade ago but perhaps some of the factors have changed.

I doubt there is any one reason for the current decline in soaring but added up all together and it's a different story. Certainly folks have brought up a number of factors in this thread.

[732002]

Some Random thoughts:

A contest can be a long day with only obout five flights.

Most of us started flying thermal sailplanes for the joy of
floating in thermals. I plan on building a BOT this winter to
relive the simple 70's.

To be competitive you need a ship that can launch high and
take a zoom. You also should own a winch to practice launches.

Landing points: I am not interested in practicing landings, the
moldie lawn dart style does nothing for me.

I should try a RES with the BOT next year?

[nuevo]

the "lawn dart" landings are not required to make a good score. It takes more skill, but it can be done. THe launch high and zoom masks the inability to read the air and find lift. It is a real advantage, but not an insurmountable one at all.

If you make the effort to read the air, you will excel. Pay attention at contests. You will note that the high $$ planes are not all at the top. Fly what you like, and make friends. THAT is the real joy of soaring and contests for me.

[ejett]

EJ's ramblings:

First, some background:

I have been flying sailplanes for a good long while, but have never flown in a contest. A couple things play into that, one being that there are no clubs around here (either now in East MS or earlier when I lived in N LA). Thus, there was no "contests" at a local level and I did not even have local access to an organized RC club until I moved out here.

I have flown quite a bit out here in the last 2 years as a diversion from work, I'd say much more so now than I ever have. I really love flying sailplanes and I have interest in flying either socially with a club or in some contests in the future. I am an old guy, but just an intermediate level pilot. I currently fly with the Meridian Aeromodelers (a power club that tolerates me). I am the only sailplane pilot in the club and I don't know anyone in the area here besides myself that flys sailplanes.

I know that there are good pilots in every sailplane club and they will be flying pretty pricey airplanes. These guys could beat me with my own equipment every time. I still want to get out there and fly with them. I CAN do that, but it is a long drive to Hunstville, AL (closest group I am aware of) at about 3 hours. For a one day contest, I could drive out early and come home late (about 6 hours or so on the road). For a two day contest, I would have to stay at least one night.

The other thing that has kept me out of the contest scene is landings. I know that landing points generally determine which of the guys at the top are going to be the ultimate winner and there has to be a tiebreaker.

I don't know if this has any effect on other people's perceptions, but in my opinion, a sailplane that has terminated its flight by impaling its nose 6" deep in the ground has not "landed" it has "crashed". :eek: I do not understand why landing points are not disqualified for this. If the canopy pops off it's a zero. To me, there is something wrong with this picture. Now, don't get mad at me about this, it is just my opinion.

BTW, I am doing my best to improve my landings to get my precision landings for my LSF voucher, but I'm not going to resort to sticking my plane in the ground to get them. In the past, I have endeavored to get my plane on the ground without any damage, pretty much without worrying about how close to the "spot" it stopped; I am going to continue to do that, but I am going to work a lot harder to land on the spot.

FWIW, I wish I had come across Al Sugar's HAM "contest" earlier. That looks like fun and a great education. I have some time left, I may try it anyway.

Jon:

I appreciate your comments and I agree with everything you say in your post.

EJ

[CHARLIE BRITT 7]

EJ, you are not old I'm old, 1932. I live in Blairsville, GA so i am 3-4 hrs from Huntsville or Tullahoma tn but i went to the Mid-South and am going to the tullahoma contest sept 18-19.
Practice those landings and go for it.
Charlie

[ejett]

Charlie:

I was speaking relatively when I said I was an old guy, not necessarily literally. I will practice those landings and I will try to make the Tullahoma contest as well.

Thanks,

Ed

[nuevo]

Ed,

It would be nice to meet you and talk with you. I hope you do make the Tullahoma contest.

About the landings, come to the contest, and see for yourself. I have never met a pilot willing to trash a plane to make a landing. They either spent hard earned $$ and/or many hours building. Oh, you will see some people do make harsh landings. That is their choice.

Since you have not flown at a contest, the only place landing scores make much difference is among the top 5-10% pilots in the rankings. The first thing required of a pilot to earn a place in the top 1/4 of the rankings is to earn all of his flight times. For those who do not earn all their times, the landings will not put them into or out of the trophies. So one could think of a thermal duration as two contests. The thermal part is the qualifier. If you pass that, you get to compete in the landing contest.

IMHO, all the talk you hear about "landing contests", is really only among the top 10% of the flight times. For everyone else, the flight time is the major determinant of their rankings. Sure the landings help out. But if you can only fly 3 of a 10 minute task...

The Tullahoma contest you mentioned is among my favorite contest to attend each year. Very relaxed and friendly. They use 10 minute flight tasks every round, starting at 9:30 in the morning, 5 rounds each day. How many of us can fly 10 minutes 5 flights in a row?

To me, the flying part is only 1/2 of the enjoyment. I get a great deal of satisfaction seeing soaring friends from all over, and keeping up with them over the years.

Hope to see you there.

Since you have never competed, and at the risk of hijacking this thread... If you like, I can cover ways to practice for a contest, and this contest in particular. Maybe a new thread just on contest practicing techniques is in order.

Jon

[ejett]

Jon:

Why don't you start a new thread? I would love to hear what you have to say on the subject. Remember, I am flying in a very tight space out here!

Ed

[nuevo]

I'll set one up tomorrow.

[John Ruff]

"I'll set one up tomorrow."

Looking forward to it

[R. Carver]

Around here a lawn-dart landing will get you a big fat 0. Two points of the plane must touch the ground.

[F3X]

Great posts guys,

Yes contest soaring is down, there are very few new pilots replacing our older friends leaving the sport. Look at the Visalia entry list and compare it to 10 or 20 years ago, most of the same names are there.

Expensive ships are not the problem, many of us have limited time for the hobby and want to use the time spent flying over building. Also a good moldy will return most of the value when you sell it years later as long as it’s in good condition, not many of our home built ever get the material costs back when we sell off older models.

The same guys win, the same guys still practice harder/smarter than the rest. Equipment will only get you so far and the rest is all skill. I suggest that you buy/build a good solid performing model and outfit it with good servos and have years of trouble free use. My TD ship is going on 3 years without a lick of trouble. And it’s still worth 80% of what I paid for it.

I think soaring in general is not as interesting to the new younger pilots there are so many more hobbies competing for your spare time. As a soaring vendor I see the TD sales declining, top f3j model sales are about the same because the guys into f3j are into it. Electric and park flyers sales are insane. (Looks like I need to start selling these to stay in business) In So Cal we are loosing flying sites and TD has to share with park flyers and electrics. It seams like TD models only truly get along with other TD models for field use. We tend to keep the freq pin longer.

Treasure what we have left, its fading away.

[nuevo]

Slight side track to this thread...

Good observations Tom.

a good moldy will return most of the value when you sell it years later as long as it’s in good condition, not many of our home built ever get the material costs back when we sell off older models.

As one of the few who vacuum bags his own planes (even one-off designs), I have to agree with this. If you build, you have to do it for the love of building, experimentation, and pride of having something unique. If I count my labor costs alone, I would never build. Oh yeah. Then there are material costs.

OTOH, if a moldie has any damage larger than the size of a dime, it's value plummets. I guess their finish is so shiny and perfect, that any damage is a major blemish.

[nuevo]

Back on topic...

Electric and park flyers sales are insane. (Looks like I need to start selling these to stay in business) In So Cal we are loosing flying sites and TD has to share with park flyers and electrics. It seams like TD models only truly get along with other TD models for field use. We tend to keep the freq pin longer.


I have flown almost nothing but TD for the past 8 years. But the convenience of small electrics has drawn me in. With park flyers, depron planes, and LiPo's; both my boys and I can enjoy flying at the neighborhood schoolyard almost every evening. I am meeting lots of new pilots teaching themselves to fly with this cheap electrics (firebirds, etc.) too.

I doubt I'll ever give up on larger TD planes, as that is my passion. But I can easily see why the smaller electrics are so popular. I can buy a small electric, and have it completely ready to fly for $170 or less. Some much less. The fun and convenience to $ ratio is pretty high. The world is changing...

[dharban]

I participated actively in TD contests 25 years ago and laid out until about a year ago. During my absence from soaring I raced full sized sailboats from dinghies, to one-design keel boats to offshore boats. The changes I see coming back to sailplanes are very much like the changes I saw in sailing. In the early 1980's regatta attendance was huge and people travelled extensively -- several of the popular one-design classes were actually home built boats. As time passed some people upgraded and some dropped out. Surely equipment became more "technical" i.e. mylar sails, special bottom coatings, carbon fiber. But as the boats became more technical, the level of sophistication in every other facet also became more sophisticated. The skill sets from those competing at the highest levels trickled on down to the weekenders. Performance standards rose significantly. Participants that cheated by practicing extensively moved farther and farther into the competitive stratosphere. Costs rose, differences between the best and the worst widened and the time required to be really good increased significantly. At the same time people's discretionary time declined substantially. The great gain in productivity of the 1990's did not evolve solely from high technology. It also came from wringing time out of every worker's days. While I am sure that sailing is doing well in some areas, I have seen a substantial decline in participation where I live. People are just too busy. I think we have better turnouts for our Wednesday night races than we do for all but the biggest regattas. A lot of bang for the time spent.

Coming back to sailplanes I was dismayed at the extent of penetration of ARF's into the sport. But as I got more and more into it I came to realize that the biggest factor is that people are being forced by their employers to be very selective in how they use their time. Bang for the time expended is even more important than the bang for the buck.

If people had the same amount of discretionary time they had 25 years ago I believe that participation in our sport would be substantially improved.