Ever wonder how someone's first glassed wing turned out?

[soholingo]

I am still kicking myself for this one. But I learned a lot. I am hoping someone can benefit from this thread. My subject was a pristine simprop liftoff. Plane is a bit heavy, but the wing is/was SUPERB!!! Anyway, I figure I would glass the wing usint .5 oz glass cloth, minwax polycrylic, primer and paint. I need to also point out that I was rushing this job. I believe this is about 3 days of butchering, but it should have been done over 5-10 days.

here you see the wings with the servos mounted (I bought this thing almost ready to fly). The covering HAD to go because it was hideous.

[soholingo]

Picture of the fine obeechi sheeting. This wing really is beautiful. Also note that the wing uses live hinges. I don't know why they don't advertise this on hobby lobby's site. It would help explain the $245 price of the plane.

[soholingo]

in the first picture you see the items I used to sheet the hstab.
.5 oz glass cloth
scap aramid
aquanet to seal the wood
polycrylic
elmer's spray adhesive.

I sprayed the wing with the hairspray to keep the polycrylic from seeping into the wood. I let it dry and then I sprayed the kevlar with the adhesive to keep it in place. Looking back on this I wouldn't do this again I would either minwax or epoxy it into place. I don't know if the hairspray was effective.

I then sprayed both sides with adhesive, light coats, and attached the glass cloth. I trimmed it with some scissors and now its ready for the first coat of polycrylic.

[soholingo]

I repeated the above steps with the wing.

Mistake number one. The spray adhesive wasn't needed. It prevented me from moving the cloth around, and smoothing out wrinkles was impossible. My solution was to cut the wrinkles down the middle and then smooth them out when I used the polycrylic.

[soholingo]

Here are the pieces after the coatings of minwax. This stuff is advertised to dry quickly, don't you believe it. I would say you could get two coats on a day. One in the morning before you go to work, and one in the evening when you return. Do it any faster than that and it seems to get gummy and excessively heavy. And that's the rub with the polycrylic, I would think that using epoxy would beat this method by a long shot. You put the one coat of epoxy on, and then you let it dry, and the next day its ready.

Anyway, I let the stuff dry and surprisingly its actually a pretty good finish. Its hard and tough and durable. In the last picture you can see where I trimmed the extra cloth with a sharp razor. By the way, I used one piece of glass cloth, I drapped the cloth from the trailing edge to the leading edge and back down, so the fold is on the leading edge.

[soholingo]

Another helpful tip...

Another reason why you don't want to rush the application of mini wax. I had 2 or 3 partially dried layers of miniwax, and while it was fairly viscous, it would still flow. As a consequence, I ended up with puddles and lumps in the wing. No problem I thought, I will just sand it out. Its easier to not have the lump than to sand it out. So next time I will do the wings one side at a time, or bag them or something other than coating both sides with polycrylic and leaning them against the wall over night to dry...

At this stage I had gained about .75 to 1 oz per wing. Not bad I thought...

j

[soholingo]

The wing is ready to paint.

I put some plastic down on the garage floor and laid out the wings. I had sanded the wing and taped the wires. I sprayed my first coat of rustoleum auto primer It filled the weave in nicely and the wings are looking VERY good at this point.

They advertise the rustoleum as a fast drying primer and I take them at their word, and after about an hour, I paint the wing with rustoleum heavy duty paint white and yellow high gloss. The wing at this stage looks almost as good as my mini graphite's wing. I am extremely excited at this point...

[soholingo]

Another mistake...

All of the paints I used are 'fast drying' so when they feel sorta dry I flip them over and paint the stipes on the back side. Notce the trimming tape that I use. It's on there sort of losely because I don't want to peel the damp paint off on the other side. Three things happen because of this...

1. The beautiful finish on the other side is ruined because it sticks to the plastic on the floor.

2. The loosely fitting tape allows the black paint to bleed through to the other side...

3. The overspray of the black paint lands on the yellow strips, even though I used a piece of cardboard to keep this from happening.

Next time each section will dry all day, and then I will cover the painted portions up with brown paper so that the overspay won't tarnish the work already completed...

[soholingo]

Here is what my wing looked like the next morning. you can see where the paint has come away where it stuck to the plastic. The lines on the wings are where I am going to cut the flaps for the wing. In the bottom pictures you can see where the flap is cut, and the hinge is live. I made two more mistakes with the flaps.

1. I measured the cuts, and somehow I was off on one measurement. So the inner chord of one flap is larger than the other side, by about 1/4".

2. I couldn't find my razor saw, so I used a dremel cut wheel to cut the flap. My cuts weren't as straight and uniform as they would have been with the razor saw.

Still I am undetered....

[soholingo]

Last few pictures of me cutting the servo holes. I didn't have a router and template to cut out the servo holes, so I used the dremel again. Wrong tool for the wrong job. BUT I did get a servo hole. Also look at how the paint job is damaged from the early handling of the paint.

Well I hope someone learns from this, besides myself. I haven't flown this plane, and at this stage I am rather disgusted at the results. Its time to put this one in the box, and let it marinate, while I finish up the nike 2.

[davidleitch]

so how much weight have you added in total now? Why worry what it looks like, its how it flys that counts.

[soholingo]

The entire glassing/painting added about 4oz, add 2 hs81mg servos for the total weight.

[Speed E Freak]

Don't you just hate it when things don't quite go to plan?
So I think I'll film cover mine after all!

[rorywquin]

Jay

At least you have the b*lls to show your mistakes - most of us only display our successes.

I agree with Dave - fly the thing. I like my planes to look good but, I care more about how they fly!!

If you got one of those small finishing sanders you could have those wings cleaned up in a morning!!

[davidfee]

Jay,
I see the problem in your very first picture: You're drinking a lousy Budweiser! Next time pick something with more body. :)

But seriously, I agree that the bad paint could be sanded off without too much trouble. Now you see why I hate basically all rattle can spray paint. I have gone almost exclusively to airbrush paints. Another thing you learned, which I just want to emphasize, is that it's not worth rushing these things. Take the time to find the right tool for a given job. Allow the paint to dry fully before moving on. Etc. Enjoy the building process. :)

Oh yeah... and fly the thing.

-David

[soholingo]

Jay,
I see the problem in your very first picture: You're drinking a lousy Budweiser! Next time pick something with more body. :)



HEY! Budweiser is the king of beers... says so right on the can.
Besides, I only drink two kinds of beer, Bud and free...

jay

[Allan Wright]

Enjoy a better beer - it will allow you to wait more since you'll be enjoying the beer instead of thinking about the model and rushing it.

[soholingo]

I was rushing this one, to try and get ready for the east coast f5b contest... Obviously I didn't make it...

[tic]

Did you know Old Milwaukee has one NUMEROUS taste tests and it's WAY cheaper than Bud... Do I drink it? does ANYONE drink it? no.... I prefer Molson XXX or Boddingtons when my stocks are up.... Great first effort on the glass job though Jay... I just shell out the big bucks and get em pretty to begin with from Dieter though, some say "no pain, no gain" my motto is "no pain! no pain!"

[R. Carver]

Two suggestions- One, next time try using a good laminating epoxy, like West Systems. Sands WAAAY easier than minwax.
Two, try using Rust-oleum's "Painters Choice" primer. It's in a blue can, it's white, and it dries a lot faster than the auto primer.

Still, it looks a lot better than my first one-it looked like a big composite terd :eek:

[soholingo]

Two suggestions- One, next time try using a good laminating epoxy, like West Systems. Sands WAAAY easier than minwax.
Two, try using Rust-oleum's "Painters Choice" primer. It's in a blue can, it's white, and it dries a lot faster than the auto primer.

Still, it looks a lot better than my first one-it looked like a big composite terd :eek:

carver you just made my day. I am going to use epoxy the next time. Painters choice primer will be perfect, and thanks for the laugh...

[hayman]

While you are trying laminating epoxy, why don't you paint a set of Mylar's and vacuum bag the cloth onto the Obeechi wings (assuming they are foam cored) and the balsa stabs? Wouldn't need a lot of vacuum. You could try the food saver thing and you can still use Krylon.

Bill

[soholingo]

While you are trying laminating epoxy, why don't you paint a set of Mylar's and vacuum bag the cloth onto the Obeechi wings (assuming they are foam cored) and the balsa stabs? Wouldn't need a lot of vacuum. You could try the food saver thing and you can still use Krylon.

Bill

I am actually working my way to that... I heard good things about the polycrylic so I had to try it. The tough part is finding out where the mylars and bags can be bought for locally and inexpensively.

Bill,

Here is a question... I saw how Phil Barnes did his wings in the video, Are kevlar/carbon as strong as obeechi? It would seem that you would still have some indentations when you pressed the wings in. I have been after Phil to let me have some scraps of his work, but I haven't been able to get him to respond...

[davidfee]

For cheap vacuum bags, heavy duty trash bags work just fine. Look for clear ones if you can find them... but black ones work fine too. It's just nice if you can see through the bag.

If you're laying the glass over pre-existing balsa or obechi, then you can get by with lighter Mylar than the usual 0.014" stuff. You can get the heavy Mylar online at any of the composite suppliers. For lighter Mylar, I understand signmakers and drafting houses use the stuff.

I used a water-based polyurethane on a doorsill about 10 years ago and it worked fine... I've never used it on a model though. Waiting for paint and glue to dry is one of the most difficult parts of modeling. ;)

[davidfee]

Oh... yes, composite skins are more likely to be dented by fingers than a balsa or obechi skin, but the strength to weight is so much better that you train yourself to take more care with the wings. It's not unheard of to make wing bags. ;)

[soholingo]

If I use garbage bags, what do I seal it with? caulk?

[davidfee]

Caulk works... even duct tape will do in a pinch.

[soholingo]

mmmmm duct tape... Dave, you have just removed all of my justifications for not vac bagging... thanks.

j

[Fishstyx]

To seal the vacuum bags, silicone works well. Get the silicone gel that doesn't harden. It's plenty thick enough to seal the bag and since it doesn't harden you can use the bag over and over. That's how Marcus was sealing his bags.

Jason

[hayman]

Another convenient way to seal you bag is to use "Rope Caulk". It comes in a role so you just pull a length of @ 1/8 dia. caulk. I've used it with great successes for molding and isolated repairs to wings. The picture of the wing was my first Aegea bagged wing using the Carbon Fiber tube spar. Realized one tube was not strong enough so I routered out a section is inserted a second half span tube. A wall paper seam roller is a nice tool to have when using this technique but isn't necessary.

Bill

[soholingo]

Is the rope caulk reuseable?

[davidfee]

I have found that, in general, yes... the "caulk rope" or "tacky tape" is reuseable within limits. You have to be careful with it, though, as dirt will stick to it... not to mention it will stick to itself. I'm interested in hearing more about what Marcus uses. I'm willing to bet it was a latex caulk, not silicone. It would be interesting to know for sure.

[davidfee]

If you're using bags instead of sheet plastic, there are some neat little bag clips on the market... reusable and quick, with no mess. I use them all the time. I also use the bag nipple from ACP.

[soholingo]

If you're using bags instead of sheet plastic, there are some neat little bag clips on the market... reusable and quick, with no mess. I use them all the time. I also use the bag nipple from ACP.

This is what I keep thinking about going to, but money isn't letting me do it just yet, besides I don't think I am ready to invest the money if I am not sure I am going to continue doing the bagging...

j

[hayman]

Is the rope caulk reuseable?


It can be, but it is cheep enough, 4 mil plastic sheeting from Lowes or Home Depot is relatively cheep and a roll of paper towels are inexpensive, a roll of waxed paper.....

I use the plastic tubes/bags and bag clamps and the Phil Barnes technique of sheet plastic and breather cloth as you have viewed on his DVD's for bagging wings.

There are other more economical techniques if you are mass-producing something.

Bill

[davidfee]

The pump will be the most expensive part of your setup. However, the support equipment does not need to be exotic or expensive to get the job done. My first few wings were made using trash bags sealed with packing tape. The "Mylar" was the polyethylene backing from Monokote. The breather was paper towels (which I still use a majority of the time). I used the intake of my Mom's airbrush compressor for the vacuum and I think the hose was just some rubber tubing from Home Depot (can't remember... it was years ago).

The reason I spent the money for the "good" equipment was that I had first used the econo version, decided I liked the technique but wanted to be able to get the same (or better) results, more consistently and without headaches. As I said, the pump was the big money. You don't need a fancy bag or polyester breather. You don't really need the porus release film either, but it makes life easier.

Peel-ply is very useful to have around and it's much less expensive for making hinges than Kevlar. You might be able to buy a yard of nylon fabric at the yardage store which would serve the same purpose.