Gentle Lady Spoiler measurements

[amike_321]

I was wondering if anyone knew the measurements of the spoiler setup others have used on a Gentle Lady. How many bays does this cover and where in reference to the poly break should I place them. As far as actuation goes, I'll probably use a string and rubberband method to open and close them. I have modified an uncovered wing by adding sheeting to inboard panel LE and upgraded to the "wind" spar mod in the manual.

[csc]

I was wondering if anyone knew the measurements of the spoiler setup others have used on a Gentle Lady. How many bays does this cover and where in reference to the poly break should I place them. As far as actuation goes, I'll probably use a string and rubberband method to open and close them. I have modified an uncovered wing by adding sheeting to inboard panel LE and upgraded to the "wind" spar mod in the manual.

I just received my GL kit and will be making this mod too. Anxious to see what you end up with. What size trailing edge stock are you using for the spoilers?

Clark

[Sparky Paul]

On 2M sized planes, I've found 1x6 inch spoilers work more than well enough.
I use 1/8" soft sheet for the spoiler.

[csc]

Here is another link to some pics of a spoiler mod...
http://66.55.23.12/gallery/spoilers1/index.html

[amike_321]

Looks like Ive got some work to do!

[aeajr]

I flly a GP spirit and a Sagitta 600, both with spoilers.

The Spirit spoilers are 3 bays wide in the center of the inner section of the wing. They are made of trailing edge stock. I have them actuated with servos in the wings.

The Sagittta Spoilers are also 3 bays wide, about 1 inch deep and are operated by strings to a single HS-81 in the fuse.

The Spirit spoilers are held closed more positively but were a bear to get even until I got them on a radio that could handle them on separate channels.

The Sagitta are easy to trim and work just fine. 1/4 oz weight on the spoiler helps them stay closed. Have seen a hint of lifting on strong hi-start launches, but never a problem.

If you can, operate them with a computer radio and add a mix of up elevator. On the Sagitta I have 25% up elevator at 100% spoiler and the plane floates down nice and flat. Prior to the mix, it would nose dive and I had to try and manage the elevator manually with not much success.

[amike_321]

Okay I have decided to go with 1" spoilers that span 2-3 bays centered on the inner wing panel.
Should I, use two servos or use one servo? Two in the wing, or one in the fuse to actuate the spoilers using string and rubberbands/weights or lightweight pushrod? If I use two, I can use my computer radio to set them closer to one another. If I use just one, I have read that they can be trickier to setup but it comes out lighter and that may be a good thing with the GL. I thought about a torque rod arrangement but with the dihedral in the wing I would have to make a bending/flexing section to compenstate for the angle of the wing. It would be like rolling a bananna on a flat surface.

[Sparky Paul]

Strings, single servo. Any more is serious overkill.

[amike_321]

The strings are what I'll use then. Do I need to use a small pushrod housing to run them through? I have some Dacron kite string, I think it is 20lb strength, do you think this will be enough. I also have some small diameter pushrod cable, I was thinking I could use a blob of solder at the control surface end and solder both cable ends to a washer and then use a piece of string to go from the washer to the servo.

[tnavressdog]

Another possibility for the spoilers could be torque rods. My Aspire 2m already had the wings built up so I didn't want to redo all the covering. Instead I was able to install torque rods to open the spoilers without touching the covering. I would say use the width of three bays for the spoilers. With my Aspire in medium slope lift, it will only descend slowly with the spoilers wide open so the more spoiler area the better, especially if you get caught in a booming thermal or plan on sloping the sailplane.

[amike_321]

I thought about torque rods but with the dihedral in the wing wouldnt I run into a rotation binding issue? If the servo was in the center of the wing there would have to be a "joint" that was able to flex, right?

[tnavressdog]

Even though there is a bend in the center, the needed flex is very little. I used a brass tube that was bent so there was no flex in the direction of servo travel but a little bit of space for the rods to flex in the needed direction. Here are some pictures since they would say more than words. Hope they help. I used the brass tube to connect the servo to the torque rods so I can slide it off of the ends of the 90 degree bends in the rods. This allows me to separate the two wing halves for portability.

[amike_321]

Great, Since I havent covered the wing or sheeted it, I will have a less trouble installing the spoilers. I will try the torque rod on for try. If I have too mouch trouble getting the setup right, I'll just use a piece of cable and a string method. thanks for the pictures.

Amike_321

[Sparky Paul]

For my strings, I bend (with a heat gun) yellow Nyrod™ around a coffee can to get a 90° bend.. make 4 of these. These turn the string from the spoiler in to the servo, where they turn forward... no need for the Nyrod™ to be continuous.. you can't push a string. :)
This is the way I did on the 2Tee..

[SoarNeck]

I'd personally go with a method that forces the blades both open and closed. The weight method, for example, can sometimes result in the spoilers being sucked open on launch (and during loops, not that that matters). I hate pull-strings too, myself...servos are cheap, and EPA/ATV is a great feature!

[amike_321]

By the way, what connects the spoiler to the torque rods? it looks like there is a piece of brass tubing on the end but I dont see a control horn. Do you just let the airflow hold them down?

[SoarNeck]

... no need for the Nyrod™ to be continuous.. you can't push a string. :)

Just hope that you never accidentally fray or clip your cables...you'd have to open up the covering to run them again! The extra gram or so of tubing is cheap insurance, and lets you run the strings after the wing is covered.

[SoarNeck]

Do you just let the airflow hold them down?

I wouldn't do that if you care about the glide ratio of your model. The best definition of "spoiler" that I've heard is: "Device used to decrease the glide slope of a sailplane by creating drag...whether they're open or not!". This is a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that most people don't bother to seat their spoilers correctly, and they end up with more airframe drag than they might have had.

[tnavressdog]

I made this modification within the last three weeks and the airflow does hold them down completely. But I agree that it is possible to lose efficiency if the spoilers were sucked open. Right now the brass tubing just pushes the spoilers up and air pushes the spoilers down. It has worked perfectly but I still hate the possibility of them opening. I have some springs I will install to pull the spoilers down but haven't had the time to do it yet. While sloping the plane, I can't even tell the difference in the airplane's flight but I'm going to install the springs anyway to make myself feel better. You could do something different than I did... make a hinge on the spoiler, and on the end of the brass rod. Connect these hinges with steel wire to make a system that opens and closes with the force of the servo but I thought that what I was doing would work the same and was more simple. The springs will ensure that the spoilers close.

[aeajr]

If you want instructions on how to install spoilers and have not covered the wing, go the the build manual for the Spirit 2M found there:
http://www.greatplanes.com/manuals/gpma0530-manual.pdf

Just follow these and you should have no trouble.

[amike_321]

I have a couple of pictures documenting the build. The extra material between the ribs is to tack the covering down and to support the ribs a little. The spoilers measure about 1.25" X 7.25" and will be opened with a string and control horn of some sort.

[amike_321]

I will be sheeting the wing LE sections tonight and running test wires to the spoilers to check the working action. I will use a basic capenters wood glue (sparingly) to glue the sheeting in place. I will probably glue the LE sheet in place with thin CA and roll the sheeting over the ribs and then bring out the pins and clamps. Will post pictures.

[amike_321]

Here are some crappy pics of the spoilers. final measurements are 1" X 7 1/4" made with 1/16 sheet and 1/16 ply control horn. I have the wing LE sheeted and the cables and tubes installed. I started taking measurements to decide where to place the servo. I was thinking of mounting the servo in the bottom of the wing and letting the cables go to a round control horn that will pull evenly on each spoiler. I could also solder the cables together and use one cable or some piano wire going to a servo mounted sideways in the wing. I will make an access panel if I have to access the servo. Here's the pics...feel free to give suggestions on servo location, etc.

[Rain City Flyer]

Amike - You seem to be generating the most activity on GL's lately. I'm about to build one for my 13 year old son to learn on (I mainly fly dlg's).

Have you compiled or found a list of "Nice to Have Mod's" for the GL? This one may see a winch and I plan to add spoilers while I'm at it. I'm planning on the 3 piece wing so it'll fit in my car.

I've got a lot of balsa building experience, so no changes are off limits. I use FG and CF as well as Kevlar on a regular basis, so composites are no problem.

I see the following as good ideas:

Extend LE Sheeting to poly break
Beef up spar for winch launches - CF, Shear webs?
Rear deck sheeting changed to cross-wise grain

Anyone try the following?:

Change the rubber band holders to side to side?
Add turbulator strips to the tip panel LE's?
Removable Horizontal Stab for storage & Transport? (found a great Spirit post)
Narrow the fuselage to help drag?
Lightening holes in fuse from TE back to tail (like Windfree?) to lower AUW?
Round the LE corners on the tail surfaces?
Round the LE Corners of the main wing?

Anyone's comments are welcome. TIA

Chris in Seattle

[csc]

Anyone try the following?:

Change the rubber band holders to side to side?
Add turbulator strips to the tip panel LE's?
Removable Horizontal Stab for storage & Transport? (found a great Spirit post)
Narrow the fuselage to help drag?
Lightening holes in fuse from TE back to tail (like Windfree?) to lower AUW?
Round the LE corners on the tail surfaces?
Round the LE Corners of the main wing?

Anyone's comments are welcome. TIA

Chris in Seattle

Hey Chris,

I too am waiting to get started on my GL.

Gentle Lady's used to come with the dowels protruding from fuse, one under the leading edge and one at the trailing edge of the wing for rubber bands. The one I owned years ago was setup like this. I guess somewhere it was decided that it was cleaner to have the current set up. Perhaps saved a little weight too. I think I will go with a bolt on wing this time.

I plan to have carbon tube spars in a three piece wing and spoilers, of course. Can you post the link to the Spirit tail? Also thinking about continuing the LE sheeting all the way out rather than using turbulators. What do you think?

I am also contemplating a V-tail. I like the look and for a floater like the GL, I think it would be great. May save a little weight too if I'm lucky. Just need to figure out how to mount it. Would be great if it was removable too.

I have been fooling around with some triangle balsa stock to see if I could use it in building the fuse so that I could round the fuse somewhat from it's boxy shape. Not sure if I will do this or not. Since I plan to use HighTec HS-81 servos I could easily narrow the fuse. I admit I hadn't thought about that.

Let us know how your build goes. Post pics too! :D

Clark

[Rain City Flyer]

Clark - Here's the link:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203231&highlight=spirit+contest

I decided to stick with regular gear to save adding weight to the nose.

I had heard that v-tails can get mushy on low speed approach and since this is for my kid, I decided to stick with conventional.

I'm trying to keep the tips light so turbulators are lighter than sheeting.

There's enough fuse lenght that I think I can mount the servos in tandem rather than side by side.

Chris in Seattle

[amike_321]

I think your mods will be great to add to your GL. But I dont have any experience with winches and barely any experience with Hi-starts. I think it would be wise to keep the plane as simple as possible without changing the attitude of the plane. I think it has evolved to be a great learning tool for beginners and a relaxation tool for experienced flyers. I consider myself somewhere in between this range. I have experience flying but still the older designs that everyone grew up with give me trouble. I think that any engineering or reinforcing of the GL would defeat the purpose of having a light floater. I think the only mods I will use are the ones that have been proven in the past to work. But the mods you have listed are great ways to improve any aircraft fast or slow. I am building spoilers not for anti-lift purposes, but to help bring her down in the short field behind my house. I think the dowels inside the fuse are the best method, they are out of the airstream, and they allow a little "give" on those not so good landings. But these are only my opinions, try the mods, and let us know how they work. I'll probably end up building ten of the GL, I love the classic design and it's flight characteristics.

Amike_321

[silentfly]

hey guys im just about to start to build a gL kit my self and wondering if i should sheet the whole leading edge? and does it have the same tip staling property as the spirit 2m?

[aeajr]

Hi Siletfly!

[Rain City Flyer]

Silentfly - I'm going with full top sheeting to the poly break for strength (3 piece wing) and turbulator strips on the tip panel LE's to save weight.

FWIW - I'd swear that the plane on the box cover has sheeting to the tips. Either that or it's a bad photo as there seems to be no sag at all between the ribs on the LE.

BTW - My fuse is done and tails are built, covered and installed. I used .25" triangle stock in place of the stock .125" fuse stringers, backed them up with a little carbon tow, added more cross-grain decking top and bottom and sanded the fuse corners to a nice round shape. I knocked the sharp corners off the vertical fin and horizontal stab to make mine look a bit different. (I'll try to find my camera and post a photo or two.) I added a little triangle stock to support both tail surfaces. They didn't add much weight and the tail looks much stronger now. I also used .060 CF rods run in antenna tubes for control rods. Plenty strong and not very heavy.

The wing is next. Will be adding spoilers and the "factory" spar reinforcement for rough launching (hard 3/16x1/4 and probably a little CF and kevlar wrap for good measure.)

Unfortunately, I'm traveling starting tomorrow, so no progress for a week or so.

The only thing I'd do differently is to sand off those laser burn marks on the insides of the fuselage finger joint. It looks like Frankenstein's monster with suture marks showing through the tinted WBPU and glass I used to cover the fuse!

All in all, I'm pretty pleased with the kit so far.

Chris in Seattle

[csc]

Chris, how about a progress report?

Clark

[Rain City Flyer]

Unfortunately not. Got sidetracked by my first love, handlaunch. I received a small Austrian DLg called the KIS Mini F3K and a small Wing called a Jib. I just had to get those airborne. The completed fuse is ready to go.

I was actually reviewing the building instructions and talking myself out of getting too fancy. I've been a follower of the Allegro lite by Mark Drela and there are many things that can be done to the wing to help for winch launching, but where to stop is the question. This is after all a plane for my kids, right?

I've decided to add a little CF to the main spar, probably a little kevlar thread wrap as well, add the hard balsa as indicated in the plans, but all the way to the poly break. I'll extend the LE sheeting and add the turbulator strips. I'll still add the spoilers since it's so much easier now.

Hope to get it knocked out this weekend.

Chris in Seattle

[stewy2]

Hello Silentfly and Rain City Flyer

I am comming in a little late to this thread, but...

Back in 1980 a freind of mine and I both built Gentle Ladies.

I sheeted the leading edge all the way out.
I did not round the edges of the fuse very much.
I had the wing hold down dowels sticking out the sides.

My freind:
sheeted the leading edge to the poly break
then used turbalators to the tip.
used triangle stock for fuse stringers and rounded the
corners of his fuse quite a bit.
Used a fore/aft wing dowel configuration inside the fuse.

I cannot remember the exact weight (it was too long ago) but mine weighed in very close to the design weight. My freinds was about 2 ounces lighter.

My plane flew very well, was stable, slow and easy to keep up with (it floated).
His plane signalled the lightest lift and would float much farther on landing.
My plane would signal some lift, but would plow through the stuff that tipped his plane. By the way we both used the same ballance point.

Can't wait to hear how your mods work out.

I still have fond memories of my GL.

PS: one more difference: I covered my fuse with monocoat and he painted his.

[Rain City Flyer]

Stewy - Thanks for the information. Sounds like I'm taking your friend's route, although I will add spoilers to help get down if it's too floaty.

I've used a water-based polyurethane (tinted orange) to cover a single layer of .75 ounce FG on my fuse. Tail feathers are standard Monokote (also orange) and the wings will be 3 piece to fit in my car and some combination of Red-orange-yellow (can't decide the pattern). I'm going to beef up the spar as my club has a nice winch that I'd like to learn how to use. I've got Skybench's practice high-start and their full size version to start with.

Memories - You can always build another one...

Chris in Seattle

[stewy2]

Chris

Is the three peice wing an option spelled out in the kit?
It used to be one or two peice with a steel rod and brass tube joiner.
If three peice, is the center section now flat? Or is it still polly?
One more question, is it still die-crunch or have they retooled to go laser cutting?

I might have to build another.

[Rain City Flyer]

Stewy - The kit is now laser cut. The fit has been fairly good, but I haven't gotten to the wing yet.

The wing has the old poly angles with the factory directions for removable wingtips at the outer breaks using steel and brass (3/32"). It also has a hard balsa (3/16" hard balsa not included) spar mod for winch launching. Wing tips are held on with vinyl electrician's tape (8 colors).

I'll be going with CF joiners and will be wrapping the joiner tubes to the spar with kevlar thread to prevent bursting on winch launch or when the kids cartwheel in.

You could easily modify the wing to two piece with one wing rod if you went with the old through the fuse dowels for the rubberbands. I'm sticking with 3 piece to have a bulletproof center section.

The kit has been a breeze to build. The instructions are sometimes clumsy (IMHO), but workable.

I've also rounded the corners of the vert fin and horiz. stab to set my "Lady" apart. I found some really cool wingtips on another site (see definitive list of GL mods thread http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243754&page=1 ) that I'll be trying as well.

Cheap fun with assured results!

Chris in Seattle

[stewy2]

I found some really cool wingtips on another site (see definitive list of GL mods thread http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243754&page=1 ) that I'll be trying as well.

Cheap fun with assured results!

Chris in Seattle

Those are the wingtips we used on our GLs. My friend showed them to me after he built his. He was more experienced and quicker at building. We carved them from square balsa after gluing to end of wing, and reinforced the TE with small guage wire. I did not know what to call them or how to describe them. I dont know if they have much affect but I always use them because I like the look.

[Rain City Flyer]

I made some progress on the wing this evening. Right inboard panel is built including beefed up spar (prolly overkill) and the spoiler is mostly built for this panel.

The fit of the ribs and spars certainly leaves some room for improvement. It wasn't too big of a deal since I was altering them for the beefy spar, but it took some glue to fill the gaps and I hate doing that. I should have the outboard panel done tomorrow night including the beefed up joiner.

Might be flying on Saturday, so I don't know how much building will get done.

Chris in Seattle

[Rain City Flyer]

Well, spent too much time flying this weekend, but still made some GL progress. The right wing half is ready to cover as soon as I get the tubing installed for the spoiler string. The left inboard half is about 75%.

The left half went together much faster, but the spar slots continue to vex me. Has anyone at Carl Goldberg tried to build one of these? If I was a newby, I'd be stumped or have a really crooked wing. One sheet of ribs also resembled white oak. I weighed the wing parts and played mix and match until they evened out.

I upgraded the wingtip joiners to CF rod w/aluminum sockets and built a little balsa/ply box to encase the sockets on the spar. I then wrapped them with some kevlar thread. No failures here. I also extended the LE sheeting to the first bay of the tip panel for durability. The turbulator strips went in no problem. I used the factory triangle stock for the wing tip, but reshaped them to include small tiplets. Probably not good for much, but they look cool.

Still trying to decide on color scheme for the main wing. Fuse and tails are all orange. I have red, yellow, orange and purple covering. Any suggestions?

Chris in Seattle

[aeajr]

Purple and orange would never be able to sneak in under the radar, but it would remind me of jolly rancher candy. Ha Ha!

[Rain City Flyer]

I'm trying to figure out how to work that purple in somehow. I'm leaning towards yellow at the center going to orange and then red followed by purple tips. Kind of like a rainbow or a color mixing chart. :p

Chris in Seattle

[stewy2]

Rain City Flyer,

That sounds like it would really be eye catching. Show us some picts when it is finished.

Karl

[Rain City Flyer]

Well, she's built and the covering is going on. I did some more homework and decided to go with the following:

Left tip - Yellow
Right tip - Red
Center Section - Orange
LE to spar - White

This gives the plane a colorful look from the ground and the white will really help the kids on approach as it shows up pretty well down below tree line. I've got another evening or two of covering and then I'll post some pic's.

Chris in Seattle

[Rain City Flyer]

The covering is completed and tonight I'll start on the gear installation. Empty weight is 18 ounces. Sounds like I'm going to be in the target range. I'll try to post a photo tonight. :)

Chris in Seattle

[aeajr]

If you start specking this thing out, you might try something I have found useful.

Get one of the monokote shiny silver trim sheets. I think they are about 5 inches by about 4 feet in size. This is adheasive backed.

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHX87&P=ML

I cut 1" wide by 2.5" long strips. I wrap three of them around the inner wing section leading edge on each wing on my Spirit 2M, Sagitta 600 2m, and my Legend 3M, spaced evenly over that inner section.

Use 1 inch along the width and the 2.5" inch to wrap from above to below the wing with more below. You can arrange them nicely for eye appeal. You can do more, but I find that 3 gives me a good set of flashes.

When the plane is very high, as you turn toward the sun, you will get a flash off of each strip, so you get a series of flashes on each circle. This can be very helpful in seeing the plane when it is high or far away, especially when you are looking at it more along the wing and less from the bottom.

If the contrast with the sky is not so great, the flashes can help you track it when you might have trouble seeing it. I find it also helps with orientation. If the sun is to my back and I am coming back from the distance I just keep the flashes coming toward me.

Quick, cheap, easy!

There are products like skysheen out that that has similar benefits, but you can't usually get it at the local hobby shop. These sheets are pretty commonly available.

I have now added these to each of my planes.

[Rain City Flyer]

The "Chrome" wingtips are that same material. I'll add some to the spoilers and possibly the elevator for that same flashiness.

Best of luck to others that are building.

Chris in Seattle

[aeajr]

If you are adding chrome for looks, that's fine, but if you are adding it for visability, as I do, don't put it all over the plane. When you are at the limit of visual range and you see a flash, you won't know if the plane is coming toward you or going away.

If you put it on the spoilers then you will have to force the plane to lose altitude in order to see it. Not good!

I suggest you only use them on the front of the plane. Most people put them on the front of the wing. If you can't find it in the sky, set it into a circle. When you see the flashes, you will know it is coming toward you. By the direction of the circle you can get a good fix on the orientation as well.

I hope this clarifies how to best use the tool.

[Sparky Paul]

Chrome has the "feature" (in the Microsoft dictionary) of taking on the color of the immediate surroundings. It can make a plane vanish in front of you!
Not a good 'color" in large quantities.

[aeajr]

Hmmmm - Never thought of that.

Well I just use it for visabilty strips, but I can see how a whole wing in chrome might seem to disappear. Spooky!

[Rain City Flyer]

Paul - Thanks for the info. I mainly used it for a little flash from afar. We'll see how it works. In searching for color schemes, I liked the suggestion for a bright LE for visibility below the tree line and the white looks like it'll work well.

Chris in Seattle