Anyone interested in an IPS powerd 'vintage' model?

[vintage1]

I saw a review of a tiny little IPS powerd vintage style plane in QEFI and it sparked my 'designers addiction' and I wondered of anyne would be interested in an IPS sized float-round-the-back-garden-at-sunset sort of plane.

If you have a favorite style of plane and fancy someone drawing one up, post pictures. I am too busy to build at the moment, but could get a drawing done and posted up.

[California Condor]

[QUOTE=vintage1]I saw a review of a tiny little IPS powerd vintage style plane in QEFI and it sparked my 'designers addiction' and I wondered of anyne would be interested in an IPS sized float-round-the-back-garden-at-sunset sort of plane.

Here are some IPS powered Old Timers. Most are Antiques. The twin is LPS powered (two), as is the twin tail pusher.
Eut

[vintage1]

Yes, that is exactly what I had in mind. Something like the one on the bottom right. Or go even higher on wing area to get the speed down.

[California Condor]

[QUOTE]

That is an ABC Robin built for the SAM SOS event (as are the others). It flies nicely on one Li-Poly.

[bolmas]

aeromodeller published a huge amount of plans for the KPO1 and gasparins in the 80s/90s and they were about 24-28 inch span. they were given away as free plans and are perfect for scaling up or down as the plans could be folded and put under a photocopier quite easily.i have leon shulmans wedgy at 14 and 18 inch for co2 and they fly superbly.i have considered a 30 inch version for r/c as a parkflyer

[vintage1]

I lost all my old mags years ago.

I was thinking of a brand new design, but in the spirit of e.g. a 33" rubber cabin monoplane. With about the same flying speed as a slow stick, but prettier.

[California Condor]

I lost all my old mags years ago.

I was thinking of a brand new design, but in the spirit of e.g. a 33" rubber cabin monoplane. With about the same flying speed as a slow stick, but prettier.

Here is one, an Itialian model named "Cry"

[mcrabby311]

Nice idea, vintage! I know Id be interested in one. I have no design or kit bashing skills. Any idea yet which one you might draw-up!?! Id sure like to see some more pics of that Robin, Condor. Is that kit still available?
Mark

[vintage1]

Well. I had though of a 3 channel radio GWS IPS powered high wing monoplane floater...

Challenge would be to make it REALLY simple to build. Without laser cutting.

Target weight 7oz with wingspan about 30".

[California Condor]

Nice idea, vintage! I know Id be interested in one. I have no design or kit bashing skills. Any idea yet which one you might draw-up!?! Id sure like to see some more pics of that Robin, Condor. Is that kit still available?
Mark
My Robin was built from plans in (I think) a SAM 35 news letter.

[bolmas]

i keep thinking about a senator with 3 channel electric. now that would upset the competition men!!

[vintage1]

Sweet!

Yes, yes, yes, thats exactly the sort of thing.

Whats the power unit? Is it radio? how much does it weigh?

[bolmas]

its just an idea but it shouldnt be too hard, these might work

motor/box and speed control from a gws tiger moth,5g servos,micro rx,

airframe weight should be around 50-60 grammes as there is no prop or rubber, my ajax weighs 84g all up with rubber/prop

possibly nimh/lipolys for power,l/w tissue covered.fit 2 wheel instead of 1 wheel u/c

ive got plenty of plans for small models but what about the plan page.look in amongst the previous plan pages. its easy to enlarge on a photocopier. i have just sorted out the plan for a new spark ignition model by using an A4 drawing in a 1940 magazine.ive got a 42 inch span plan from an A4 copy and it cost me 64p at the local copy shop!

[vintage1]

I ws browsing some old plans pages as well - I have an A1 plotter and enough stuff to trace over anything I can scan etc. If only I could import PDF's into Corel Draw etc....mine is buggy and freaks out.

If anyone can source a nice online plan for me to trace or re-draw I'll post it back up.

I don't know how many more tiomes I can craah my IPS powered Peter Rake Sperry monoplane into the trees round the garden before I will need a new airframe anyway :-) So far I have missed the pond....

[vintage1]

How about this one?

[California Condor]

QUOTE=vintage1]Sweet!

Yes, yes, yes, thats exactly the sort of thing.

Whats the power unit? Is it radio? how much does it weigh?[/QUOTE]
=======================

If you are refering to the ABC Robin, it was built for the SAM SOS event. For that event it uses a 4 cell AAA NiCd pack. It also flies well on one LiPo. The motor is a GWS LPS "C" (6:1) with a 4,8v motor. It weighs 5.2 oz..

[Arizona Chuck]

vintage1, Smaller Old Timers is what I want to start getting into. They fit in the motor home better.
There is a Panther I redesigned for a GWS 100 I want to scall down for a small motor.

[Arizona Chuck]

The file didn't load, I'll try again

[vintage1]

How much smaller will it get?

I like the construction on that one.

[Feodosia Flyer]

Down-scaled Oldtimer designs are perfect , perfect for IPS motors! I find that all of the oldtimer plans for .020 gas motor powered oldtimers work fine for IPS motors too. My current favorite is a Westerner - inspired oldtimer I built and fly. IPS motor, 42 inch wingspan and goes up like an elevator as soon as it leaves your hands .

[mcrabby311]

Lovely plane Condor, do you have a link to the plans???
So have you come up with an idea yet Vintage??
Mark

[vintage1]

Yes. Nothing I found quite fitted the bill, so I spent an idle hour sketching, and took a wing profile here, a fuselage profile there, cribbed some of Mr Peter Rakes construction methods, and a few of my own, and something is taking shape in my head.

Should be a sligtly sprightlier Pico Stick performance wise. And look something like a Micro Rascal.

I think its going to be called the Chimp. Please don't ask why.

As usual I am trying to find a compromise between looking as boring as wet paint, and being as easy to do as.. paint wet paint? :D

In the meantime, paint problems solved, grass is cut, and tow other planes are nearing completion, and the weather looks fine for flying over the next two days, so don't hold your breath...

[California Condor]

[QUOTE=mcrabby311]Lovely plane Condor, do you have a link to the plans???
===
ABC

[California Condor]

[QUOTE=mcrabby311]Lovely plane Condor, do you have a link to the plans???
========
Robin

[vintage1]

Oh yes. That is VERY close to the style I had in mind. I may well trace that and use it as a starting point. Like you I will leave out the struts and complex UC as well.

Scaled up to mid 30 inch sort of wingspan, and built to about 8 oz max I think. That's easier to achieve with standard feather radio gear.

On 2s LIPO it should be a steady performer. On 3S it ought to be seruious fun!



Thanks a million. I think I will go ahead with that one - or an adapation thereof.

[Demon-Leather]

Here's an "oldie" not many have heard about.. The Enterprise Model & Supply Co. "Super Liner" Designed By Jerry Brofman & drawn by Paul Del Gatto. This one was designed in the Hay-day" of "multi-pupose models and could be powered with an .020, be a Tow-line glider, or use that "new-fangled Jetex" power from across the pond! She had a pretty elliptical wing, nice Vee-bottomed fuselage and was built both strong & light with some rather "unique" building technique innovations You hadn't seen around. I snapped a couple photos of the box & plans.. she's really pretty and something like her hasn't been seen in a "while" Bob

[Demon-Leather]

The plans a very nice,.. the kitwood itself is a bit heavy,.. but that was the practice "back in the day" scaled-up to 30-or so inches (presently 24") she'd be nice for IPS. I love the old models.. I have a ton of them & plans... hope I live long enought to build half of them! My favorites are the WWII "sudstitute-wood" kits from the early 40's. During the war, balsa was a wartime commodity, used in the ACTUAL fighters rudder tips & elevator tips etc. so they used cardboard formers,and basswood or pine sticks!.. You'd be surprised how great they fly made out of balsa! Metal was at a premium as well, many companies apoligized for lack of metal parts saying they were doing their part for the war-effort..You had to hunt your own. a stripped old bicycle or Model A inner tube became your motor for your model.. no rubber either! Bob

[mcrabby311]

Geez Condor, you built yours from that!?!? Im not too sure my skill are up to it...but I may try it. I scaled up a rubber power Bristol M-1 once, didnt finish it yet.
Whats the span on your Robin? Power, batts and sort???
Lots of good ideas vintage, Im kinda falling for the ones that look more like scale cabin planes, like the Robin...good luck deciding!
Mark

[California Condor]

[QUOTE]Whats the span on your Robin? Power, batts and sort???
========
The span is 27". Power is GWS LPS 'C' with the 4,8v motor. Weight with 4 cell AAA NiCd pack os 4.5 oz. with the LiPoly, 3.7 oz..

[mcrabby311]

WOW, awsome plane. Whats the prop size and duration of flight on the Lipoly?( 1 cell?)
You added some ribs to the larger span didnt you? 27" span at 4.5 ozers ...has to be a sweet floater!
Mark

[California Condor]

Prop is an APC 7x5E. I don't know how long it would fly on the LiPoly, I would guess about 20 minutes, perhaps much longer. I get flights over 15 minutes with the 4 cell AAA 300 mah NiCd's.

[clipclop]

Somewere in my plans I have the aeromodeler mini super and Bi mini plans , these from memory were for 1/2cc diesel so if built light would fly great on a GWS and 2 lipo's -note to self , dig them out
Stewart

[Lutin]

WOW just found this forums I hop it will not stay a trial forum and become a regular forum...Arizon Chuck that is a nice plane where did you get the plans for it..

thank you

[vintage1]

All we have to do is keep posting pictures and plans and drooling a bit, and it will get to be a proper forum.

[columbiarcdude]

Vintage ... you ARE going to make these plans available to us aren't you? I sure hope so.

Tom

[Tony Oliver]

Vintage1 ' If only I could import PDF's into Corel Draw etc..'

You can!

Instead of trying to import, select the drawing by using the .pdf reader function and copy the drawing to the Clipboard. You then open a new drawing in Corel Draw and 'Copy.

It appears as a tiny box which you drag out.

I've just tried it and it works.

Tony

[Tony Oliver]

As an example of .pdf, I have some early Aeromodellers in .pdf form.

I opened one at random in Acrobat Reader 6 (free download) and selected the plan of the Uproar. I chose the 'Copy to Clipboard' option and opened a new drawing in Corel Draw 7 then pasted. I enlarged it then for use in this forum converted it in Corel Paint to a .jpg to show what can be done. Reducing it to show as below.

It works well enough to make a better drawing or an actual model from it.

[vintage1]

That IS a handy tip.

Thank you.

[Tony Oliver]

Like you, I suspect, I've been looking for years for a way to convert small drawings into ones I can use as full size plans. None of the 'Trace' functions worked very well (even in TurboCAD), and I am also hampered by having to limit drawings to A4 and tiling to get a larger size.

I only discovered this current thing after you prompted me when I read your post and realised that you can extract individual drawings from .pdf files. Pat yourself on the back for starting this thing off!

Cheers

Tony

[Arizona Chuck]

Arizon Chuck that is a nice plane where did you get the plans for it..
I copyed it from a Panter kit plan and rewraw it to lighten it for electric.
I think if I reduce it to 30" wing span it should fly with a IPS.

[birdbrain]

Here's one Closet RC Modeler built for me from a BMJR kit. Still waiting for a calm day to maiden it but will post pics in flight.

See here (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207183&page=3&pp=15&highlight=birdbrain)

[vintage1]

Very nice indeed.

[willin]

I concour, The zipper sure is sweet. :cool:

Robert

[zl3vml]

I am busy recovering this 24" "Viking" I built many years ago - about '84 I think, powered with Telco 6000 Co2 motor. I am kinda looking at fitting a micro radio from them micro cars but still not sure what to power it with....
Any suggestions?
Mark

[vintage1]

7x6 prop, either 2s LIPO (300-700mA/h) and a 3.5:1 geared IPS s2, or 3s LIPO and A geared (5.33:1).

5A or better ESC

2 x 9g or lighter servos and a parkfly reciever and away you go.

Fisrt option will be calm and relaxed, second option will be a homesick angel :)

[Bud Morrison]

Dont forget about the Guillows line of freeflight kits in the 600 and 700 series such as the Arrow, Lancer and the Fairchild. These could all be converted and all had options for cox engines. Easybuilt as well as a few others carry many kits that would make for easy conversions.

[zl3vml]

Sounds good - but weight is the constraint - the Telco motor weight is 26g, so that is my limit. The micro radio gear is going in but untill I have done the mods and weighed it I won't know how much weight I can carry for a motor setup.At an estimate the receiver, 3 80 mA nicads & actuator plus wiring ect are about 15g - that leaves me with around 10-12g for a powerplant.....

[zl3vml]

Sort of what I am looking at doing.
The motor is from the micro car - the prop is just a test to compare different motors & thrust etc.
(as soon as I finish building my thrust meter)
Motor run is around 5 minutes on three nicads - only two shown.
The motor unit & prop shown only weighs 4.5g but I don't think it will have enough power. Might have to experiment with props.
Mark

[zl3vml]

Arghh - wrong photo, here is the one I meant to attach.

[vintage1]

Oh. You have two options. Go 'indoor' gear with it and keep it as a very slow plane, or accept the fact that an IPS/LIPO/9g servo setup is going to end up arund 7 oz AUW (200g or so) and fly it like that.

The airframe is certainly sturdy enough.

[Bud Morrison]

You guys may find these of interest. I just ordered a set of the mini oldtimer kits for RC conversion.

http://www.aalmps.com/oldtimers.html

[Ragwing]

Well I'm convinced, it's time I dabbled with electrics. Thanks Bud for that link, one look at that 21" span Powerhouse sealed it. I've been playing with 1/2A stuff for a while and really enjoyed it, but I just can't build as small as I want to and still use gas power.

The trouble is I know very little about electrics, so I could really use some advice and direction. I know a bit about electronics, RCL circuits, etc. But I don't know much of the electric flight jargon, and I have little understanding of how many batteries/what motor to choose for a given size of model.

I want to keep things cheap, I'd like to build whatever I can on my own (ie battery packs, harnesses etc). Sticking to my 1/2A roots I was thinking of purchasing a motor and battery combo that would give me 2-5 min of flying time at a single power setting-using a switch instead of a ESC. The radio equptment would then be 2 micro servos, a GWS reciever and a 120mah NIMH battery. I'd be open to using an ESC (I know they are not that expensive), and eliminating a battery pack, but again that takes me into unkown territory.

I've been poking around here for a while trying to learn a bit, but there is so much information available and I really don't know what I am looking for. I'm lost when it comes to this stuff, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Derek

[Bud Morrison]

If your thinking of doing one of the mini kits from the aalmps website drop them an email about wich one you would like to do and they will let you know what works best in them. They pretty much have their mini oldtimers all figured out as far as the best gear.

[Ragwing]

Bud,

Thanks for the quick reply, I've sent an inquiry.

Derek

[vintage1]

By the time you have stuck in two servos and a recever, you might as well use an ESC I reckon.

The 'simple cheap' stuff stops short at about 6-8oz planes: 5g servos, 9g receivers, 9g ESC etc etc and a GWS IPS power plant are all good value stuff.

If you try and get down to 'indoor' weights you end up spending a lot more on the avionics. And possibly the motor.

If and when I get round to creating a design as I romised earlier in te firum, it will have the following

IPS 'A' power unit (5.somethig gear ratio)
GWS 9x7 prop (or 7x6 for 3s LIPO)
2x 9g servos
5A ESC.
9g receiver.
2s kokam 340 (or 3s kokam 340) LIPO pack.

AUW around 6-8oz and suitable for outdoor flying on 24-30" span stick'n'tissue type airframe.

This project may be closer than I thought, since my IPS model has been up a tree for 4 days, and through half a dozen severe rainstorms.

[vintage1]

Well, I am so upset after trying to SHOOT my model out of the tree with an air rifle, in the hope I could break up the airframe...that I set to and sketched out a replacement.:eek:

I'll be off away for a week, so things will go quiet, but a sneak preview.

[coffeemug]

Hey Ragwing, you weren't supposed to get tired of 1'2A and your Baby Bombshell so quickly... Anyhow, from my experience it looks like the perfomance I want is too expensive with electric. I'm going back to 1/2A and 1/8A for my smaller stuff. What I have to offer might not lend itself to the size range of models you are considering, but you are welcome to the ESC and IPS "A" motor/gearbox and 150 mah bat that came with the Slow Stick I had. Just let me know where to send 'em. I don't know what the amperage of the ESC is but a couple of guys at our local flying field got away with using 250 mah packs in the same setup. Also I doubt the ESC would work with lithium, but at least you would have a chance to dabble with electrics. Maybe vintage1 could give you some ideas.

Nick

[vintage1]

ESC fine for 2s Lithium

As long as you dont' fly for ever - the LVC may be too low to be safe, but just have your 1/2 hour of flying and recharge.

You must be looking for some hefty performance if electric is 'too expensive'

[Ragwing]

Coffeemug, thanks for your generous offer! I'll send you a pm with my address.

I haven't gotten tired of the baby bombshell yet. I was at a SMALL fly in this last weekend and I put in a number of very nice flights on it. But I also took a little .020 Altair with me, and in the space of an hour and a half I burned up 3 glow-plugs, and I never even got to fly the model. The model would start, run off the prime, get too lean and burn up the plug. That sort of trouble gets expensive quickly. Plus I am a little tired of the mess that comes along with these little engines, and I want to be able to fly very small models, and about the limit with glow is a 30" old timer with a peewee. I'd like to go smaller, so that's why I'm giving electric a shot.

Thats a neat looking model vintage, I'll be looking forward to seeing it built. :D

A quick question about GWS motors: I've been doing a lot of searches and browsing and I hear many people referring to their motor choice as simply GWS IPS or GWS IPS A. But when I try to find that motor to purchase, and go to a place like aeromicro.com, I find a million GWS motors, many of them with the IPS heading. Which motor do I really need for a 24-21" span model? Aside from duration and weight differences, will I need a different motor if I decide to go with a Nimh pack?

Thanks for the help,

Derek

[vintage1]

The IPS refers to 'indoor power system' and was originally designed for such.

The gearbox comes in ratios A through F, I think on that one, and two other ratios - S1 and S2.

The motors were originally sold for 5-6 Nicad or NiMh operation, and everybody at once used 7 cells... but it has been discovered that they put out a lot more power if kept low on amps and allowed to rev freely on 3s LIPO.

In general you can take whatever props are specified for 7 cell operation, and use the identical setup in 2sLIPO, but for 3sLIPO you need to go up in gear ratio by a factor of 3:2 to use the same prop.

i.e. my model-up-tree flew nicely on S2 gearing (3.5:1) on a 7x6 prop on two Kokam 560's, but to use the same prop on 3s LIPO I found the A ratio (5.86:1) gearing to be best. This keeps current in the 2-2.5A region which is safe.


On 2s LIPO an IPS will draw about 15W at about 55% efficiency - say 8.25 watts or a shade over 1/100th bhp. It suits models up to about 8oz. About equivalent to an under 0.5cc diesel or a sligthly strangled .010.

On 3s LIPO you can draw 22W and at a better efficiency - say 66% - about 14.25W or .02 bhp roughly - nearly doble the power output. This suits models up to 10 oz. I won't say its exactly a half cc diesel or an 020, because the props run slower, and are more efficient, andtop speeds won't be as good as the IC counterpart. Nonetheless thats the 'feel' of the size of model an IPS can fly.



In general GWS specifies two props for each gear ratio - a 'slow fly' type prop with a bit more diameter and fine pitch, and a more coarse pitched offering. Unless you are able to get wing loading and stall speed much below 10mph, its wise to use the coarse pitch for outdoor use. It allows better top speed

Aircraft world is probably the best place for data on the motors. Or GWS web site themselves. http://www.aircraft-world.com/prod_datasheets/gws/powersystem/ips.htm and http://www.gws.com.tw/english/product/powersystem/ips.htm

Other motors fit the gearbox and te motors have been through some naming changes. The motor I mean is the DX2 motor. The RLC and RXC are similar sized, and I believe the RXC is in fact a new name for the old motor.


For a fuller explanation on part numbers etc I started a thread in the power forum to get exact info and its all there somewhere. Try 'GWS nomenclature' in a search.

There is no doubt that apart from LIPO costs, a GWS IPS powered model around 30-36" span and weighing in at 7-8oz is a respectable trainer or sport model that can be flown from very small fields. I have flown them in up to 10mph winds, but it gets a bit painful. And turbulence is a killer.

For models in the 21-25" span range you will end up with quite high wing loading. Ther is very little you can do about this - i.e. the lightest IPS setup is the motor (1 oz) two servos (Picos at 5gm each = about 0.6 oz) plus a couple of Kokam 340's .72 oz for two, plus an ESC at what - .25 oz and a reciever at about 9g. 1/3rd oz.

Thats 3 oz before you add the airframe on at all.

To really get the best out of 24" of monoplane, you should maybe be looking at the Indoor type stuff. By spending about twice as much you can get even smaller bits and knock an ounce or so off all that. But it gets specialised.

If you stick to standard gear like the IPS etc, you will end up at probably 6-7oz, and a stall speed up around 15mph. Which is quite high for a model that size - and you WILL need the carse pitched props to get up to around 25mph flying speed.

[California Condor]

[QUOTE=vintage1]The IPS refers to 'indoor power system' and was originally designed for such.

The LPS (Light Power System) is much smaller and lighter. Comes in A ratio (4:1), B (5:1), and C (6:1).
This model (ABC Robin) is powered with the LPS B with the 4.8v motor and flies well with one 650mah Lipo.

[coffeemug]

vintage1, I found that my tention level gets way to high when flying in small spaces, and when given adequate space I want the kind of performance that would seem to require a brushless motor (new motor-batteries-ESC-ETC) and I just can't part with my money that way. Also, I have been flying with fuel for so long I don't have to think twice about what engine to use to get a certain level of performance.

Ragwing -Sounds like you are getting into electric at just the right time. I admire those of you who are willing to stick it out past the high learning curve for electric. I've done that with fuel so long ago I forgot how frustrating small engines can be and take a lot for granted.

Nick

[vintage1]

I can completely understand that. My two fastest planes that are almost truly unlmited vertical are too small to fly at 60mph or so - blink and they are gone!

To get that sort of performance in a .60 sized model is $1000 or so. I'm climbing the size curve tho - will be going up to .25 sized models next year I hope. That is not too bad cash wise.

[CryHavoc]

I always thought the Easybuiltmodels 36" "Sunbeam" was cute little plane. I bought the kit with the intension of blowing it up but it would certainly work as an IPS job I suppose.

[vintage1]

Looks perfect to me.

The biggest problem with the conversions is the extra weight you are adding - even using LPS rather than IPS still leaves you with an oz or two of radio gear and ESC. Not to mention packs etc.

Not sure what AUW on a 36" rubber model would be - maybe 3-4oz? Its likely to be twice that with radio and power on board.

[732002]

I started this plane a few years ago before LIPO's and lost
interest because it did not look like it would fly will with the
heavier batteries. The wing area is about 180 in2. Would a 2 cell
300-700 LIPO work well with IPS in this size plane? Are the cheap
2 cell chargers a good way to get started in small LIPO's?

It looks like it may come out tail heavy. Should I try to mount
the batteries forward of the firewall? I would hate to add lead
to balance.

Thanks Dave

[vintage1]

What counts is all up weight. IPS and two LIPOS will fly a 7-8 oz model but 3s LIPO will get you into the 9-10oz max region. Wing area and span sounds ideal.

Try and pull everything forward - servos and cells - to get CG right. Its not wise to have the receiver near the ESC and motor though.

3s LIPO on an IPS should give you a faster more 'power' model - 2s LIPO and an IPS tends to be more 'rubber power' :D

But it is a cheap way to start - except that if the bug bites you wou end up wasting that 2 cell charger...

[Greg D]

Ordered RCM 48" electric Spook plans, before I start building I beleive that I'm going have to shink it to 36"! Let's see I have a couple of HS55s,a feather rx, add a CD rom brushless motor and a 600 or LIPO..... Ahhhh, I acn already smell the dope. :D

[Greg D]

Ordered RCM 48" electric Spook plans, before I start building I beleive that I'm going have to shink it to 36"! Let's see I have a couple of HS55s,a feather rx, add a CD rom brushless motor and a 600 or so LIPO..... Ahhhh, I can already smell the dope. :D

[Demon-Leather]

Personally,.. I think high cabin models have been done to death...vintage or otherwise. I'd like to see more "unique" models out there in geared IPS.
How about a good ole' Jasco Spotter Bipe. They had it for rubber power or .010. Tricycle landing gear to boot! Hook it up to the rudder for flawless ground handeling.

Or, if You're REALLY daring, how about a 32" Sea Hornet to cruise around that pond You've been missing? (You won't have to miss it then! :D )
The possibilities are endless... like the parade of high-cabin everything models.. :rolleyes: Bob

[vintage1]

Umkmm - yes, but the models I may yet do for IPS power are not 'vintage'..still thinking of a giant scale dragonfly and a small scale warbird...:D

[Demon-Leather]

Sorry, Thought You were looking for "vintage" models that woud be good for geared IPS..I guess anything You put an IPS in, would no longer be considered vintage.
Still, the old vintage rubber jobs offer a never-ending supply of IPS conversion material. The avereage weight of a 36" span rubber ship, ready to go is around 3-3.5 oz...depending on covering choice, added detail, etc.
The radio equipment and power source I'm using weighs in at 4.3oz I'm using GWS 2amp ESC,2 Picco sub micros, 4-ch GWS rec,and old Qualcomm Li-Ions (Why heavy Li-ions?,.. because I'm cheap, and I have a dozen packs or more)
Combine the two and you'll have an AUW of between 7.5-8oz.(You can count on an AUW of 6.9-7.5 oz with your standard Li-Poly) So 36" is about ideal, and 38-40" will make a "floater" where You can even add neet things like retracts & a bomb drop on a warplane. You can even get away with it on a 36" plane, but it will fly faster, and you'll be at the maximum ridge of the power envelope performance-wise....well, depending on the wing area.
I can't help You with a Dragonfly (though I'd love to see one!.. sounds interesting!) But if You need some seldom modeled "vintage"warplanes, I have a few that would be grand for IPS. How about a 36" TBD-1 Devastator? A Curtiss XP-42 Pursuit, Blohm & Voss Bv 141 (now, THERE'S a lateral balance-challenge with electric Gear!), Heinkle He-112 gullwing, Grumman Skyshark... I even have a 46" Platt Grumman Gaurdian with an AUW of 4.6oz thit 6 or 8 strands of tan! (that should be an IPS 'floater" with a heat sink, & a GWS 3-blade, it should look almost scale, and handle retracts) :D These are all mostly WW II era "substitute-wood" kits, except the Bv-141 That's a "late-model" A.A. Lidberg rubber design that origionally spans 28" and I scaled-up to 36" He has a wonderful 40" FW TA-152H that is jumbo rubber scale that is simply beautiful! You can see them here: www.aalmps.com
Bob

[Demon-Leather]

Here's a photo of My "Pseudo-Pa"(Fake Piper PA-"something") I designed. Now, this one was an all-sheet design like Ken Willard's. And being an old fossil fuel using ancient dinosaur myself, was over-designed like a gas-ship
(AUW was 10oz on the money.. horribly obese, especially with a 36" span, and only a 4" chord) BUT,... it DID fly...even with heavy Li-Ions.
On ANY stick & tissue 36" span, You pretty much guarenteed sucsess, just keep the reinforcement down, and resist the feeling that "more" is better(something I find incredibly hard myself :( but, I'm learning)
I have found that .015 carbon fiber laminate is your friend in the pursuit of converting rubber to electric :D Bob

[vintage1]

1/64" ply and LIPOLY is my secret...and carbon wherever it works :D

I prefer em to be a leetle bit higher in wing loading than the average parkflyer. Top speeds in the 25mph range can cope with a bit of wind.

[Tony Oliver]

Vintage, care to expand on your use of carbon in these types of models?

I looked at some carbon strip for wingrib capping and was amazed at the price for 2 or 3mm x .5mm here in the UK. Do you pay the equivalent of 3$ for a metre strip (£2.80, I think it was). I can't believe that the production cost will be even a small proportion of that.

I use carbon tows for mainspar construction but the cost of that is small.

Tony

[Greg D]

After the Spook I was thinking a Satin Doll might be nice.

[vintage1]

Vintage, care to expand on your use of carbon in these types of models?

I looked at some carbon strip for wingrib capping and was amazed at the price for 2 or 3mm x .5mm here in the UK. Do you pay the equivalent of 3$ for a metre strip (£2.80, I think it was). I can't believe that the production cost will be even a small proportion of that.

I use carbon tows for mainspar construction but the cost of that is small.

Tony

Well carbon is expoebnsive - especailly plate - and I probably buy it from the same bloke you do - Fibertech.

I have used it - rod and tube - in these areas

TE
Landing gear - struts axles and bearings
Struts on biplanes
Pushrods
Torque rods and bearings

I am thinking of using it to simulate metal tube frameworks.

I almost used it to form curved wingtips, but ended up laminating 1/64 ply.

Frankly it seems to have the best strength to weight of anything there is, but cost holds one back a little.

[Greg D]

Vintage, I've gotten some of my carbon from kite people. They sometimes throw away their crashes just like we do. Kite shops also sometimes have broken pieces that they will "donate" especially if you buy some of your carbon from them. I buy all mine at a local kite shop because it's easy to get single pieces. Granted they only have the rod & tube but I haven't used any sheet so it's not been an issue. :D

[Demon-Leather]

I don't know about Vintage, but I buy the two 6 ft pieces of .015" X 1/2" ( about $10.00 US) carbon fiber laminate,and usually "peel" it into 2(sometimes 3) of 1/4" X .015" X 6ft strips and I get 24 ft of it(or more if I peel it into pieces slightly larger than 1/8" thick) I recommend You do your "peeling" outside, wearing gloves though, and wipe with a dampend cloth to remove any small shardes that may be there You can't see. it will strip uniformly down the length like it was done by a balsa stripper. once you sandwich it between two pieces of balsa with a tiny bit of epoxy, the piece takes on the strength of steel. The piece will flex back & fourth, but not laterally.. great stuff for spars, leading edges, trailing edges, battery boxes, motor mounts, and backing for lite ply braces, or 1/32 or 1/64" ply. You don't need much to strengthen a structure greatly. Usually, the only thing I worry about are wing spars... doubeling the weight of a rubber model can have catastophic effects on the lightly constructed wings of a rubber job!...

[Demon-Leather]

Greg,.. I'm making a "deal" right now trading for some Satin Doll plans.. a truely beautiful ship! I just got Ken Willard's Gull wing Duranita bipe plans off Ebay, another great one ( I LOVE Ken Willard designs) It's kind of like a biplane "Spook" Bob

[Greg D]

Bob, Never seen the Duranita, can you post a pic or drawing? I think some one (sorry my listings are in the other puter and it has "issues") does a laser cut of the Satin Doll. A gull wing bipe would be even nicer. Care to swap copies of anything for a copy of it, have the Earl Stahl Fokker D VIII not RC original FF plans (newer copy)?

[Oian]

Here's a plane that may fit into your parameters: Its a 30" version of the Comet "Clipper jr" (a rubber powered version of the full sized Clipper) The model weighs 4.5oz with a 45gm 6v 250mah nicad pack. Esc: Castle Creations 7p, 2Cirrus 4.4gm servos. 4 channel Berg "microstamp" reciever. power is from an IPS motor with a 5:1 gearbox, prop MTM 8/7 carbon folder. The model is covered with Solarfilm SoLite AKA Nelson light film. With Li Polys the weight would be significantly less, or the flight times would be greatly lengthened. The Berg receiver is a full range model, with one of the small GWS receivers you could cut a little more weight from the project, if you don't mind the decreased range.

[Jim Robinson]

Don't know if this is where this belongs or not, but I'm stoked so I gotta tell somebody about it. I recently bought a Sterling Jenny kit (E-1) off ebay and it showed up today. The Jenny kit itself isn't anything special, somebody started on it and most of the parts have been punched out and stored in a plastic bag. Seller was honest in his item description, and I had a pretty good idea what I was getting into when I bid. Actually the kit was in a little better shape than I expected.

...BUT, apparently the Jenny box had become the original owner's junk box, because inside the box I found a bunch of plans! In addition to the 2(!) sets of plans for the Jenny itself, there were plans for a Sterling SPAD (kit A-21), a Guillows Neuiport 11, and, something called the "Ambird Special", a kit that was apparently produced by the Ambroid glue company back in the days before zip codes. Parts patterns are all there, could be easily scanned and CAD-ed(?), and even laser cut if a guy wanted to.

Anybody ever heard of this airplane? I didn't even know Ambroid ever produced anything besides glue. The airplane is way cool; a 27", low wing control line model designed for .15 to .35 engines. The airplane is built like a tank using heavily pre-fabricated balsa parts.

I didn't even have the plans completely unfolded before my mind automatically started arranging e-power components and radio gear within the fuselage outline. This one will definitely have to go on a diet. The wing (fully symetrical) is solid machined balsa (2 pcs, hollow w/spar) and the cowling is built up from large balsa blocks. But hey, it was built to stand up to a .35 IC engine. I'm thinking built-up wing, formered & stringered turtledeck, plastic cowling, some thickness substitutions, and weight should be down around a more reasonable 6 /12 - 7 oz., and it should fly great on IPS and 3s lipo.

It just looks "groovy" (no, I didn't grow up in the 60s :) ), like it should fly "on rails". I've had a pretty steady diet of lightly loaded slowflyer types lately, they definitely don't "groove". This will be a welcome change and I think I'll put it in line right behind "Pee Wee" (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272171) as soon as I finish it.

Here's a scan of some artwork from the plans, I hope it's enough engine:

http://www.cat-tamer.com/attach/ambird-special.jpg

Thanks for listening :o ,
Jim

EDIT: I scanned the plans... I have a full size .jpeg if anyone wants a closer look.

http://www.cat-tamer.com/attach/ambird_sm.jpg

[Tony Oliver]

OK, who's first to make a radio version? A bit quick but classic look to it.

Nice looking model, as Ambroid designs were. Can I ask the Mods not to move it to C/L? It's worth a thread of its own here.

[vintage1]

Aha. Cotrol Line!

Was it a team racer?

[Blazer]

Does anyone remember when Reid Simpson was Ambroid's poster guy? Jim