Entry Level F3J-ish plane

[Allan Wright]

I recently flew high-start/winch launch for the first time. I've been flying DLG and Electric sailplanes for quite a while. I'd like to get a decent starting glider, not necessarilly in the F3J competition class, but a decent performer. It has to be able to withstand a winch launch, but I'll be using high-start 95% of the time. I'm not looking to spend $500+, so I'm looking at an entry-level plane. I'm not adverse to building. I have a vacuum bagging system, but I'm not sure my skills are up to doing something like a bubble-dancer on my own yet.

Advice?

Are the Art Hobby 2.5-meter planes worth looking at or are they heavy like their DLG offering?

[SoarNeck]

Are you really looking for an F3J sailplane, or just a TD model? The landing requirement is vastly different, so you'll get different responses based on the question asked. The first option also implies a hand-tow...quite a bit harder on the model than a winch most times.

Anyway, my advice is too keep an eye on the classified's for now. Look for a nice bagged model (Victory, Psycho or the like...Compulsions are still "hot" and pricey) or older moldie. There was a guy trying to get rid of some a few weeks ago for around $600, but I'm sure you can dicker a bit.

There are relatively few horrible models out there (avoid the Stork I...that's about it), and without experience flying them you won't know what your personal tastes run to yet.

Finally, DON'T skimp on the servos. Ignore the people who tell you that Hitecs are good enough for the big 3m models...they aren't. The power might be there, but you will really notice the temp drift and lack of precision (the new Hitec wing servos are about the only exception). I outfitted an Emerald with HS85MG's and HS225MGs a few years ago, and they didn't even last two months before I got sick of recentering and retrimming and tore them all out. Go Volz, MPX or JR.

One other tip - ask the vendors every now and then whether they have some blem models in stock. I picked up a brand-new Hera, back when they were hot, for $325 CANADIAN once. They were about $800US at the time. The "blem" - a very slight ding in the center panel, which you could only even see at certain angles. Best deal of my life...

Hope that helps!
Adam

[nuevo]

An excellent TD plane that meets your requirements is the Whyte Wings Sapphire is about $380 US. NSP sells them.

I disagree (someone has to :rolleyes: ) with Adam's comments about Hitecs. I have used HS88BB and HS225 BB and MG for over 5 years. All on 3m TD planes. I also have extensive experience with Volz. And I own MPX and JR digitals, but they have had too little use to comment on reliability.

Maybe the temp drift problems exist more "up north". :D Volz had bad drift problems several years ago. long since fixed. Perhaps the temp variations are worse where you live. Something to consider.

I can't comment on the Art Hobby planes. They are priced well. If you don't care about precision landings, contest launches, etc. You can save a bit of money (kit and servos) by getting a plane without ailerons & flaps.

[SoarNeck]

>An excellent TD plane that meets your requirements is the Whyte Wings Sapphire is about $380 US. NSP sells them.

Yep, great recommendation. I flew an Emerald for a couple of years (molded version of the Sapphire), and you still can't beat that model in light air. Also one of the best launching models I've ever flown. A little on the slow side compared to what I like to fly now, so it'll suffer in the wind a bit without ballast.

>I disagree (someone has to :rolleyes: ) with Adam's comments about Hitecs. I have used HS88BB and HS225 BB and MG for over 5 years. All on 3m TD planes. I also have extensive experience with Volz. And I own MPX and JR digitals, but they have had too little use to comment on reliability.

A wise guy, eh? That's okay, I don't mind if you enjoy being wrong :cool: Seriously though, maybe I should have explained myself a bit more. When I ran the 85/225 combo in the Emerald, it was easy enough to setup the model at home. When I got to the field, however, none of the bits of TE lined up properly since the servos had drifted. Also, even when they centered okay, the launch and reflex presets would all get messed up with some servos moving more than others. The 225's especially couldn't handle the 70 degree flap motion as well as a degree or two of reflex...where the better servos can.
If you do a search on "hitec 225" you'll also see that they have a habit of dying fairly often...they call it "Sudden Hitec Death Syndrome" on RCU.

As I mentioned, both the Volz and MPX servos can handle all I ask of them from a precision standpoint. One year I did a Hera with MPX and an Eraser with Volz, and I couldn't really tell much difference between them. The Volz servos work better with 4 cells than with 5 (no diff in speed), and the MPX servos are noticably slower and weaker than Volz. Nice and tight geartrains on both (can't say this for Hitec...save the HS125 wing servo).

I don't have much experience with JR digitals beyond the DS-811's in my towplane (not too impressed there), but others have reported good things. One of the guys in our club has had two go bad in his Icon over the last year, which may or may not mean anything long-term.

>Maybe the temp drift problems exist more "up north". :D Volz had bad drift problems several years ago. long since fixed. Perhaps the temp variations are worse where you live. Something to consider.

Don't laugh, this is probably true. I can fly happily in temps ranging from -25 C -> +35C in any given year, so I am asking a lot of my gear. Spring is the worst...I show up in the morning and it's +3C, I go home in the afternoon and it's up to +25C. Makes for some great lift, however...I'm getting lots of practice with my F3B speed runs :D

Also consider checking out Sobox models up here in Canada. I've always fancied the looks of the Vampire especially, since it's a 3.6m model for $360 US...sort of a veneer version of a Sharon. Don't have a clue about how it flies, however.

http://www.soboxplanes.com/

[R. Carver]

One more vote for the Sapphire. It's a great ship for the price. HS-85's will work fine, but like Adam said, they drift like crazy.

[MDM]

He wants full pedal launches off mono with monster zooms of the top, who is he kidding :)

Allan, did you check out Ricks Bubble Dancer construction ? Pretty simple (if your into cutting foam and bagging), I know he would share all his info with you and would probably make you the pod. You have to be careful on the pedal with his construction (dont ask me how I know) but they fly very well and are great for the high start.

This is Rick with his latest bagged BD:

[MDM]

f3j'abl, a little over your budget how about the edge light ?
http://nesail.com/detail.php?productID=76

[davidleitch]

Are you really looking for an F3J sailplane, or just a TD model? The landing requirement is vastly different, so you'll get different responses based on the question asked. Adam

Hi Adam. I'm familiar with F3J plane competitions held down here in Australia, but not with US TD comps. I presume the TD comps just have a lower landing score.

My question is leaving aside the strength requirements of winch and hand tow launches, what do the differences in rules between F3J and TD imply about model design?

If I compare an AVA, just for instance, with say an Eraser or Pike etc, is there any reason to expect either to be more successful at one form of competition than the other?

To answer my own question:

The Eraser will likely be heavier which will let it move around the sky better and handle more wind and then there are the flaps v spoiler. The eraser has ailerons for better control in wind.

Am I on the track?

[SoarNeck]

>Hi Adam. I'm familiar with F3J plane competitions held down here in Australia, but not with US TD comps. I presume the TD comps just have a lower landing score.

Howdy David! It's actually a bit more complicated than that from a design perspective...but only if you're picky like I am! TD is VERY landing oriented, with points being given in increments of every inch or so from a landing spot. There are other types of landings used, but given that the duration tasks are so short (3min even sometimes! I could do that inverted in sink off the winches some guys use!), TD is often correctly referred to as a landing contest.

The FAI tape is per meter I think (offhand, I can't remember). Big difference!

>My question is leaving aside the strength requirements of winch and hand tow launches, what do the differences in rules between F3J and TD imply about model design?

What does that mean from a design perspective? Couple of things:

-low weight...the lower the better for accurate low speed handling. I've heard guys say that a 68-70 oz model is "heavy". Sheesh...I often fly my Eraser ballasted even in light air nowadays - which is 105 oz!
A "good" TD model builds to 58-65 oz nowadays, which is terrifyingly light. Bust out the lead if the wind is more than 2mph boys!
-big, effective flaps. "90 degrees or bust!" is the rallying cry, so TD models mainly have bottom-hinged flaps.
-bigger tail control surfaces, longer tailbooms. TD models usually feel sluggish to me compared to a sleeker F3J (or even better...F3B) model.

>If I compare an AVA, just for instance, with say an Eraser or Pike etc, is there any reason to expect either to be more successful at one form of competition than the other?

Well, to a point. Just about anything will be successful in TD, given the right circumstances. F3J demands a model that will launch hard BUT FAST, since you loose points for time-on-tow. F3B and F3F further reward ranging ability (general aero-cleanliness), agility, versatility and extreme structural stability. Does that help at all?

>To answer my own question:
The Eraser will likely be heavier which will let it move around the sky better and handle more wind and then there are the flaps v spoiler. The eraser has ailerons for better control in wind.

Way heavier, depending on the version in question. I think Ava's are low-mid 60 oz, where the lighter Erasers are high 60/low 70. My F3B Erasers are 81 oz dry, and I never feel at a disadvantage compared to models a pound lighter (even in light air).

Airfoil also plays into this heavily, but weight gives you range. Higher wingloadings move the max efficiency glide speed to a faster point, allowing you to cover more air from a given launch height. More air searched = greater chance at getting out. In lift, a heavier model will circle quicker, but the min diameter will be about the same (or close, assuming we're talking 65 vs 75 oz or the like).

The weight will start to hurt you in the landing circle, but as long as you setup your approach far enough out, you can get around this handicap.

Ailerons/flaps give you control, but camber most importantly. Launch and speed range are improved quite a bit compared to a RES model. That extra pilot load may, or may not, be a good thing - depends on the pilot. I don't go for hour-long flights with my Eraser...for that I break out my Paragon (big old RES model).

>Am I on the track?

Yep...just keep doing your research. See if you can get some stick time in with friend's models, and you can see what fits with your own flying style.

[nuevo]

I think Ava's are low-mid 60 oz

Correction: Finished Ava's come out in the low 40 oz (1134gr) range. The plane (well, the Bubble Dancer actually). has airfoils designed specifically for it's size and weight.

About landing contests, all contests are landing contests, when the weather is good. :D Among the top pilots, if the air is good, the only thing left to differentiate among the scores is the landing. At least in F3J, time on the line is a 2nd differentiator. So if anyone things American TD contests are worse than F3J, take a close look at the F3J scores at the last World Championship (http://www.ilmailuliitto.fi/f3j2002/scoring.html) in Finland.

Furthermore, there is little uniformity among contest formats and scoring across the US. Different regions have adopted their own standards. Also, there are differing weightings between flight & landing scores in different areas. Even between neighboring clubs.

For example, my club typically awards a flight 1000 pts max and landings 100 pts max, regardless of the task time. A neighboring club typically awards 600 for flight and 100 for landing maxes. Quite a bit of difference in the weightings.

About flight times (in my area), I only see short flight times at large contests. At large contests of 60 or more pilots, the pilots prefer to have more flights (rounds). Since the daylight is limited, this means shorter tasks. These short time tasks are a natural evolution of pilot preferences over time.

F3J and F3B have not ever "caught on" among the masses in the US. Primarily for two reasons. 1) increased manpower requirements. 2) increased equipment requirements. In a typical US TD contest, the contest host supplies several winches and retrievers. All the pilot has to do is show up with his plane, radio and entry fee. For F3J, the pilot must show up with several friends to share the towing loads. Furthermore, he actually has to practice with such friends ahead of time.

For F3B, a lot of expensive winches are required. Even more teammates must show up. And again, that nasty word... practice.

In my observation, most pilots in the US are fairly casual. Competition is fun, and socializing is fun too. They are not too "intense" or win at all cost, if you will. To me, this means that most pilots are not willing to make the investment of time and money to compete in F3J and/or F3B contests, when TD contests supply a suitable percentage of the fun at much less cost (time & money).

I am not justifying things in America. Just trying to give you insight into the way things are.

Allan Wright,

I'm sorry if we hijacked your thread and got off topic. You stated F3J is not a requirement. I'm not even sure if you wish to compete at all.

If you do not have a computer radio, any 6-servo plane will almost require one. You can get buy, but you will be limping along, and the mental workload is greatly increased. If you do not have, and do not desire a computer transmitter, I suggest a plane with only rudder, elevator, and spoilers (RES).

[emersunn]

Are the Art Hobby 2.5-meter planes worth looking at or are they heavy like their DLG offering?

Mine built to 28 oz which is pretty d... light. It will thermal easy - needs flaps for competition. You absolutely cannot beat the Art-Hobby price/performance ratio (on a new plane) - you might be able to do better with a used bagged 3M

[markdrela]

>
I think Ava's are low-mid 60 oz, where the lighter Erasers are high 60/low 70. .

The Ava flying weight is 35-40 oz. Not sure what the max ballasted weight is.

My Bubble Dancer (basically same as the Ava) is 31 oz, and the heaviest I've ever flown it is 52 oz, in 15-20 mph wind at the ESL end-of-season contest last year. I didn't see the need to go heavier than that.

[davidleitch]

Allan the 2.5 mtr Organic is a nice plane, although perhaps a bit small for your purposes, the bigger Graphite is also good, not sure if they fit the price range. I own the electric organic. Available from www.kennedycomposites.com.

And sorry to be tangential to the topic, although F3J is in the title, but I keep getting bogged down on the different design philosphy between say the minimalist 40 oz AVA with just RES, and the 70-100 oz full house molded planes that dominate F3J competitions globally.

Both designs can stand a winch, or two man tow. Both can be landed on a pin head given sufficient practice. One flys fast around the sky looking for the next piece of lift and can then be slowed down. The other probably won't fly as far but can hang in still air a lot longer.

If I boil it all down the evolution of F3J planes over the past 30 years seems to be towards thinner more heavily loaded planes. Compare the Dave Thornburg era planes with what's seen at F3J competitions today. It seems that the ability to cover a lot of sky is an attribute of F3J contest winning designs. Personally I like those fully molded designs. The extra speed appeals as does the ability to aerobatics when in strong lift.

[Allan Wright]

There's a ton of great info here. I'm more interested in TD and less interested in the landing portion of F3J I guess. I misunderstood what I was asking for. Local flying is more duration orientated and less landing orinetated.

Rick's bubble dancers were VERY nice. If it wasn't a 2-hour drive each way, I'd arrange to spend a couple weekend days with him getting set up. I have a vacuum system, so I could bag the wings. Maybe I'll bite the bullet and set aside the time to work with Rick. It would be the most affordable way to go I imagine.

I'll also take a look at the NSP offerings.

[Allan Wright]

Wow the Vampire looks great - do the wing panels come apart for transport? I don't think I can get a 3.6 Meter wing in my Mustang!

[SoarNeck]

Wow the Vampire looks great - do the wing panels come apart for transport? I don't think I can get a 3.6 Meter wing in my Mustang!

I would think that it's a 3-pc wing from the look of it. Click on the "more" button at the bottom of the description - I think those are steel wing joiner bars. Looks like a nice kit...bit of an involved build, but the price reflects that. Let me know if you go with it - we're looking for a new contest ship for our locals for next season.

[SoarNeck]

>Correction: Finished Ava's come out in the low 40 oz (1134gr) range. The plane (well, the Bubble Dancer actually). has airfoils designed specifically for it's size and weight.

Oops...I guess I should pay more attention to these things before acting like I know what I'm talking about. I was only off by 50% I guess :D Nice models, but I think they're commanding a premium right now since demand is high (Topaz is the competitor, is it not?).

I like the BD/Ava design, but they're a little on the slow side for my tastes. Warren Man-Son-Hing here in Calgary built a BD last season, and while it's a fantastic light-air ship (or more with ballast I would think), it wasn't my style when I saw it fly. I did get a kick out of the fact that it makes a great open-class hand launch glider.

I'm surprised that nobody has flown something like this in F3J yet - in dead air, I'd think that it would be possible to float-out the time...especially on a 2-man tow. I don't think the Ava would take the 2-man launch...I seem to remember a couple of articles on Liftzone/RCSE that said that the tip joiners were blowing out on these oaccasionally.

But I digress...

>About landing contests, all contests are landing contests, when the weather is good.

All duration contests for sure - that's why I've moved on to F3B myself. It's even more fun than I thought it would be!

>About flight times (in my area), I only see short flight times at large contests. At large contests of 60 or more pilots, the pilots prefer to have more flights (rounds). Since the daylight is limited, this means shorter tasks. These short time tasks are a natural evolution of pilot preferences over time.

Yeah, same around here. It's pathetic when you think about it, however. The models are WAY more efficient than they used to be, but the task times are the same or shorter. The only way to put more challenge into things is to increase the difficulty level by shortening lines (favouring heavier models) or better yet, changing the task entirely.

>F3J and F3B have not ever "caught on" among the masses in the US. Primarily for two reasons. 1) increased manpower requirements. 2) increased equipment requirements.
>For F3B, a lot of expensive winches are required. Even more teammates must show up. And again, that nasty word... practice.

Actually, I think there's a third reason for F3B anyway 3) Lack of skill. This is my first season flying F3B after 15 years of other types of flying, and my performance so far hasn't been world caliber - to put it mildly! I'm having a blast, and I'm yet to use a fancy winch or enlist the help of anyone else (other than for advice).

F3B requires PRECISION flying, which is sadly lacking in TD/F3J. For the other events, you don't have to be able to roll the model accurately, you don't have to time entry into a course, you don't have to judge your energy level until landing, you never have to fly in a straight line, and you don't really have to use ballast properly. Heck, I'll play devil's advocate and say that you don't even have to be able to launch properly when you think about it, since the task times are so short (until the air starts popping, at which point it could be 30 min times and most would still get them without a problem).

A team definitely would help in FAI events, but you can still have fun learning a whole new flight regime with F3B. I'd been drifting over to electrics over the last couple of years since TD was getting a little boring...now my F3B Eraser is usually the only model I'll set up at the field :)

[markdrela]

>
I'm surprised that nobody has flown something like this in F3J yet - in dead air, I'd think that it would be possible to float-out the time...especially on a 2-man tow.

I remember reading that an Ava won the British F3J champs last year. Simply out-sank everybody in very weak lift conditions.

[Allan Wright]

What about the Majestic from Laser arts? Has anyone flown it?

[briandlg]

i believe that it is generally considered a nice plane, especially with the modifications suggested by Dr. Drela. they can be found at the allegro-lite list page on yahoogroups.

[Allan Wright]

Ahhh nice, it's always good when Mark 'blesses' a plane. I know it's in the ballpark then.

[Allan Wright]

I checked the files section and did a search on the message archive and couldn't find Mark's mods to the Majestic anywhere in the Allegro Lite yahoo group archive. Do you have a link?

[briandlg]

hmm....check the files section again. they're in a folder called "Majestic". :)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allegro-Lite/files/Majestic/

[Allan Wright]

Thanks Brian.

[Allan Wright]

Well the more research I do, the more sailplanes I find. It's all getting overwhelming. I think I may have to consult the local gurus and find me a mentor.

[fprintf]

Let us know what you end up picking! I went with a Marauder from MMGlidertech and hope to have it flying by next weekend.

[Allan Wright]

Looks nice - let us know how the maiden goes.

did you do any reinforcement ot the spar? Carbon? Kevlar wrap?

[Ollie]

Best at this, best at that, best at the other thing. No plane is best at everything. As long as you pick a good plane and stop wasting time, the quicker you will start honing your skills and the happier you will be, believe it or not. The more you agonize over which plane to choose, the more you will wish you had picked another after it is too late. Often, the fewer the alternatives you consider, the happier you will be in the long run. As long as you don't pick a real dog, it really dosen't matter all that much in the greater scheme of things which one you pick. As the Nike ad says,"Just do it."

Always remember that your skills contribute about 90% to success and which plane you choose only contributes about 10% to success.

[Allan Wright]

There's plenty of truth there Ollie! I'm just balancing three different questions within my means (say under $300)

1) Arf or build? There are some nice arfs in this range, but the built options may be closer to my final end.

2) If built: Vac Bagged, or balsa?

3) Is my price range just going to put me in the 'dog' category and should I wait until I can afford something more decent?

You're probably right - grab the Vampire or White Wings Saphire and fly this season while I build next season's plane.

Al

[Ollie]

Why don't you get something to tide yourself over for flying this summer and at the same time start designing your own ten or eleven foot span thermal soarer. If you designed the gambler HLG you can design and build your own bigger ship at considerable cost savings while getting just what you want. Successfully designing, building and flying your own plane is one of the ultimate satisfactions in this hobby/sport.

[Allan Wright]

I think I have a lot to learn before attempting to design a TD ship. It's like it's a whole different type of flying! You're right about getting someting to tie me over. I'll get something soon. Glider club meeting is next week, after I pick the brains of the local pilots I'll stop cutting bait and commence fishing!

[fprintf]

Looks nice - let us know how the maiden goes.

did you do any reinforcement ot the spar? Carbon? Kevlar wrap?

Nope. At the recommendation of most on the forum I decided to build the plane exactly as the designer intended, and then to build a second plane if I found it necessary to do any reinforcement *after* I had figured out what had worked/not worked. Ya see, I am a brand new builder and it was enough to cope with basic balsa and spruce shaping skills without having to learn new epoxy/CF skills at the same time.

By the way, I *love* the look of the Majestic and the SkyBird. I think I prefer the Majestic for sleekness but I change my mind on that daily!

[Allan Wright]

Always good to go basic to start...I need to keep repeating that as a mantra for myself!