AMA....To join or not to join???

[Striker308]

I need some advice fellow RC'rs and I'm venting.... Just recently I went to my LHS to buy a few props for my foamies and was attacked "verbally" by the owner manager about not being a member of the AMA.

He gave me the standard lecture about how my plane could kill someone (T-52??) o.k. I got your point in our “sue happy society”. However, he was bashing the park flyers and saying that they are a problem to the RC hobby, that too many people are carelessly flying these where ever they want and that the only place to fly is at an AMA sanctioned flying club. I've been flying my T-52 at a local community park for the last 2 years without any mishaps.

Is it right for an AMA member to put me down because I'm not a member? Am I not allowed to enjoy this wonderful hobby? I don't take any risks with my flying and use common sense. I know accidents can happen, but I try not to invite them. My children come with me and are either next to me or I fly away from them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than willing to join...but to be pressured and put down, saying "I'm not supporting the RC Hobby by not being a member". An attitude like this will turn many away from the hobby.

Sorry pal you just lost all my business. All future purchases via the internet :mad:

[DaveGherardini]

Since you are a responsible person, And take all responsiblility of your actions. Do you need ama? well do you have insurance that will cover you in case of an accident? If you own your own home chances are your covered. But i would advise to check with your insurance co and find out. If not, ama is a cheap way of insuring in case of the bad thing happening.(if your following the rules). Im not in a club that is sanctioned buy the ama and has a field that is insured. I fly at my own field(private) and im self insured. I think you must have scared the LHS fello buy telling him you fly at that park. He assumed that if your an ama member and there was an accident in that park no matter what youd be covered. He probly still thinks eveyone who flys is in a club. Dont be angry with him, hes just thinking hes givien you advice and helping you by chewing on you so youll get insurance so if the bad thing happens laywers wont take your stuff for payment. Since he did not ask if you have other insurance that would take care of any case he probly doesnt know much outside of his box. He also might be worried that parkflying is going to end the hobby for all of us. Since we know better, Ide just let him think hes really on top of it all.

[scurrier]

nothing like a know-it-all looking down on you to ruin your day. don't let it bother you. you would be hard up to hurt someone severely with a parkflyer, and like dave said, most people are covered for basic things like this anyway if they own a home. it's not illegal to fly without the ama, so that ends the argument right there anyway. an honest person flying safely and taking responsibility for themselves has nothing to worry about.

[ptmac3]

Maybe the LHS was concerned that if you do not have insurance and if the unfortunate happens that he will be dragged into litigation since he sold the products. Once the lawyers get involved they don't care who they get the money from, only that they get it for their client. That's their job, unfortunately. But there is another slant on this too. In my neck of the woods, if you are flying, or otherwise, on private property that does not belong to you, it is considered trespassing. Here, trespassing is illegal. If you are flying a radio controlled aircraft on public property and you are alone it's acceptable. If two persons are there, related or not, it constitutes a club, and for a club to fly on public property requires a town permit. If you don't have a permit you're breaking the law. It doesn't matter that only one of you is flying the aircraft. The intent is there and in the eyes of the law, intent is enough. Personally, I think it sucks, but that's the way it is. :)

[sinbad]

It's ironic that the LHS gave you are hard time,after all he's there to sell you R/C and not make a unhappy customer. Home owners insurance is the primary insurer and AMA secondary, If you are not flying on a sanctioned AMA club field I doubt that they would cover you in the event something should happen. If you rent(no homeowners)(although renters insurance is available) get AMA just in case. Besides you get a magazine monthly and can see what events are occuring in your area to meet with other modelers. Join a club,most require AMA membership anyhow.
Sinbad

[J_R]

Hi Sinbad

You are correct, in that the AMA insurance is secondary, and comes after any other insurance. However, your AMA insurance covers you anywhere you may legally fly, as long as you adhere to the safety code. Just as a point of interest and not really important to the discussion is the fact that the AMA sanctions events and charters clubs.

Most people have homeowner's coverage of $300,000 for liability. The AMA covers model related liability up to $2.5 million, subject to the safety code. Hopefully, no one will need that much, but, it is there... just in case.


To striker308.

There are jerks in every walk of life, and nothing that excludes any individual AMA member from falling into that description, IMHO. I sure would lilke to think that most AMA members do not fall into that catagory.

[sirdirk007]

I think that ama is a way to run off traffic at the field or any place that ama members fly, (and yes I am an ama member). I do like the things ama provides but on the other hand AMA is a secondary insurance that is very hard to claim in any case that may arrive. The policy is actually subbed out to another insurance co. These companies dont really understand the claims you are making anyway. I know this from past experiences with the clubs and members I have met.
When someone forces you to join or not fly it really turns me off to the whole rc thing. I think it makes ama seem like a maphia when people do this. I have been known to put people like this in there place very quickly with no regret. Keep in mind most of them are old grumpy men who dont like young punks like us in there club or turf.
AMA does have many great qualities and services available. I suggest you look into it and make a informed descision on your own with out the input of a grumpy member. I flew a few years in the middle of knowwhere Colorado and the only thing to hit were corn fields, (did I need AMA at that time?)
Only when I moved back to Cali did I join and feel the need to have a secondary policy.

[PerfectStranger]

I belong to the AMA and have yet to fly at a sanctioned field, or any "flight" field at all. Just joining the AMA doesn't mean people are going to drive to an AMA field.

Sounds to me like he's got a little "plane envy". Probably pissed because he can't fly at the park like you can.

I would recommend joining because they lobby for us politically. The magazine isn't half bad either. Kind of makes me feel like I'm doing something for the hobby in general, not just for me specifically. That's a good thing.

matt

[Hal Ray]

Almost everyone feels that the insurance is the only reason to join AMA, don't forget that the AMA fights to protect our frequencies which the communication industry would love to get.
If you want to have RC planes or cars or boats you need the AMA and would hopefully be willing to join.

HRH

[Nebbie]

I fly all the time at a city park with my glow models. I fly with a club at that park. Now this is a city park set aside for hobbies. RC airplanes, cars, CL planes, off-road bike track, soapbox derby track, etc.

With that said, I did not have to join the AMA to fly there. I did not have to join the club to fly there. The dues for the club are $30/yr. AMA dues are $58/yr. So why do I pay $85/yr that I do not have to? The club is AMA chartered. So if you join the club you have to join AMA. I joined the club (and am running for secretary in 2005) to support the club. The city is aware of the liability inherent in flying model planes. I believe that if the club did not have a membership of 50+ members the city would remove our asphalt runway. With being an organized membership we can lobby the city parks department better than if we each went one at a time. You may think that our 50 or so members would not be that important to the city, but when counting votes, you have to double that number to include spouses. Then add all our other friends and family members and you have quite a big group of voters.

AMA is the same thing on a larger scale. You may not agree with this officer or that rule, but that is what elections are for. AMA gets involved in promoting the hobby and trying to "protect" us from what our government does. From the frequencies that we fly on (does anyone really want to get a ham radio license just to fly?) to the Broadband over Power Lines, they do work for us as a group.

[rdwarren67]

I recently joined AMA. I was a member in the past, but I elected to just start over on this round of RC'ing. I didn't notice the manadatory renewal on 12/31. Guess they work like a fishing license. A little upset to donate another set of monies to the cause so quick. Next time I'll pass on joining until first quarter. I would recommend people support AMA as they support us in many life and political forums.

See you on the flightline!

Ron Warren
Las Vegas, NV

[ctdahle]

RD, if you joined in the 3d quarter of the year, you should have a credit toward next year's renewal. If you join in the last quarter, you're good until the end of the following year.

I always do the 2 year renewal. Saves me a couple of bucks and I don't have to think about it.

The 12/31 renewal date is for the benefit of club secretaries who don't have to keep track of the expiration date of your card, either you have a card for the current year or you don't.

[50+AirYears]

Way too many people think the AMA is just a magazine and an insurance provider. It's a lot more than that. It is also a lobby in Washington that has over the years got us things like access to the original exam free radio (Citizens band), expanded frequencies in the band, access first to the original 6 or so channels on the 72 mhz band, got the expansion into our current 50, fought attempts by commercial users to have our frequencies "Shared". Was able to get a couple manufacturers to stop making control units for industrial controls on our frequencies by lobbying the FCC. The AMA used to coordinate the Nationals with the Navy until budget cutters in congress called a halt to the services doing PR things like that. Has provided help in fighting goverment actions that could have pretty much halted ALL types of model airplane flying.
Think what we could have if the AMA could grow proportionally to the size of the NRA.
So some guy in an LHS got a little out of control. He is not the AMA. He might be a member, but that doesn't make him the model for any other member.

[dogon1013]

Way too many people think the AMA is just a magazine and an insurance provider. It's a lot more than that. It is also a lobby in Washington that has over the years got us things like access to the original exam free radio (Citizens band), expanded frequencies in the band, access first to the original 6 or so channels on the 72 mhz band, got the expansion into our current 50, fought attempts by commercial users to have our frequencies "Shared". Was able to get a couple manufacturers to stop making control units for industrial controls on our frequencies by lobbying the FCC. The AMA used to coordinate the Nationals with the Navy until budget cutters in congress called a halt to the services doing PR things like that. Has provided help in fighting goverment actions that could have pretty much halted ALL types of model airplane flying.
Think what we could have if the AMA could grow proportionally to the size of the NRA.
So some guy in an LHS got a little out of control. He is not the AMA. He might be a member, but that doesn't make him the model for any other member.

So your saying the AMA is like a Union for us RC'ers. I don't mind unions, in fact some of the time they actually do good. I don't like that every field or sanctioned event in town requires you to join the "union". I would be happy with a single event AMA membership, so i could fly in the AMA sanctioned events without buying a whole years membership.

as for planes being able to kill people, I compare that to owning a Large dog. that dog could kill someone (and some have). if that happens the owner is liable. You don't see pet shops pushing extra insurance or a dog lobby on large dog owners do you? you don't have dog parks that require you to have that extra insurance in order to walk your dog there.

There is no need for that because the owners take responsibility for the dogs actions and are able to walk their dogs almost anywhere they want. the same thing is happening with park flyers. with the smaller electric planes you are able to fly your plane almost anywhere, and as long as the owners continue to take responsibility for their actions they will be left alone.

The AMA was a necessity for the days of the larger, louder, less reliable RC planes of the past. now that the planes are becomeing easier and safer to fly in small areas the AMA, (IN IT'S CURRENT FORM) is less necessary.

Toby

PS I am a current AMA member, just not sure if i will renew.

[dogon1013]

compareing the AMA to NRA

Guns are way more dangerous than RC planes.

yet you can go hunting on a sanctioned field or shooting at a range without being an NRA member or having special insurance.

Hmmm....

it would be better if the AMA was more like the NRA.

[plumb]

compareing the AMA to NRA

Guns are way more dangerous than RC planes.

yet you can go hunting on a sanctioned field or shooting at a range without being an NRA member or having special insurance.

Hmmm....

it would be better if the AMA was more like the NRA.

I agree the ama should operate in this manner. The amount of dues they require is what gets me. Why should we pay for a Hq in the middle of nowhere that few of us will ever even see? A magazine I have no time or intrest for. The flying fields around here are all ama, maby there could be a reduced rate to members for the amount of insurance and a resonable fee for overhead. say 20 bucks a yr

Brad

[Hossfly]

compareing the AMA to NRA

Guns are way more dangerous than RC planes.

yet you can go hunting on a sanctioned field or shooting at a range without being an NRA member or having special insurance.

Hmmm....

it would be better if the AMA was more like the NRA.


Personally I don't know what a *sanctioned* hunting field is, however you won't hunt in this part of the USA (Texas) unless either, you own the land, lease the right to hunt, have a friend that allows you on his land, or some such benefactor.
At a range, you either pay commercially or belong to a club to shoot. Usually the fees allow the owners to cover themselves commercially with insurance for their liabilities. OTOH, YOU are not covered for anything and YOU can suffer the financial burden should you mess up.
At a large commercial range that I have used every so often, just YOU give the SAFETY OFFICER one bit of *smarts* and you will either be arrested or, at best, off the property within minutes. Maybe AMA Clubs need to be more like that!! :eek:

As a Life member of both NRA and AMA and as a land owner where I hunt when I do hunt, my expenses for a bit of hunting far exceed the cost of flying RC models when I was an annual dues payer to both the RC Club and AMA. (Very short time ago)
As a note, MY gun/s is/are a _ell of a lot more potentially dangerous to anyone I find tresspassing on my property than I could ever intentionally be with a RC airplane. :D

Unfortunately for AMA, as now structured, AMA cannot be a LOBBY! Lobbying is prohibitied for organizations protected under IRC 501 (c) (3) provisions.
While it's very easy to make all these less-than-informed remarks on forums, the exercise of personal discipline can give one a much broader view of one's personal responsibilities. Therein lies the solutions to many of the RC Flier's flying facility problems.
In addition, joining AMA, reading the magazine AMA news, checking the web for what's-happening and thinking through the between-the-lines of what they tell you (and what they DON'T tell :rolleyes: ) could lead to being much better informed on what is REALLY happening. Then your VOTE will be a definite help to keeping AMA moving in a proper direction.

Dave Mathewson for AMA President 2005.

Horrace Cain
AMA L-93

"Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it" Pericles

[Jim Branaum]

compareing the AMA to NRA

Guns are way more dangerous than RC planes.

yet you can go hunting on a sanctioned field or shooting at a range without being an NRA member or having special insurance.

Hmmm....

it would be better if the AMA was more like the NRA.

You had the right idea, but you seem to have let personal prejudices overwhelm your conclusions.

Guns IN THE HANDS OF A WELL TRAINED USER are much more dangerous than MOST radio control aircraft. The problem with your comparison is that the AMA is not providing PRIMARY insurance coverage to the end user, just the land owner if there is a chartered club. The NRA does not provide insurance to the land owner; he does that from your payments to him and YOU had better have your own insurance.

[tterrell]

Just because one individual leaves a bad taste in your mouth, please do not have a negative attitude about the rest of us. AMA is a great organization and the reason is because of the people. I am not a member of any flying club, but I am an AMA member. I will join again in the future because it is a great organization. Even if insurance was not available I would still be a member. Do not base your decision to join on my opinion or the opinion of others. Find out for yourself about the people in the organization and make your own decision. Most of the AMA members I know do not bash anyone, the ones that do are few and far between.

[electroman]

A very deep concern. It has become ever more clear that 85% of membership in AMA is there for the insurance coverage. Why else would just 15% of the membership have voted in this very key election? If insurance is offered to modelers at significantly less than the annual dues, might we not assume that membership would plummet to the 25,000 or so who voted this time? The huge infrastructure established at Muncie can not be supported by that small membership.

[Jim Branaum]

A very deep concern. It has become ever more clear that 85% of membership in AMA is there for the insurance coverage. Why else would just 15% of the membership have voted in this very key election? If insurance is offered to modelers at significantly less than the annual dues, might we not assume that membership would plummet to the 25,000 or so who voted this time? The huge infrastructure established at Muncie can not be supported by that small membership.

Actually, of this is a subject of deep concern to some. What you have said is not that far from reality, but the question is what can we do about it.

The concensus amoung some I have spoken with seems to be that we (AMA) have been doing a poor job of promoting model avaiation in our effort to promote the organization. Couple that with the lack of information that filters down to the average member, and you see the attitudes shown in this thread and the low vote turnout. It is hard to select or provide a responsive EC if we don't motivate our own club members to take action. If you and I will not act, can we expect others to do it for us forever?

[ctdahle]

....Guns IN THE HANDS OF A WELL TRAINED USER are much more dangerous than MOST radio control aircraft...

Jim, I think I have to completely disagree. A gun in the hands of even a moderately trained user is only slightly more dangerous than a rubber chicken, and a bit less dangerous than a can of sardines (you could cut yourself on the lid y'know).

Gunshot wounds and property damage, if not deliberately inflicted, are generally the result of carelessness or negligence of the individual gun user, and while there are occasional injuries caused by a faulty breech bolt, an over weight powder load, or some other latent flaw in the firearm or the load, these are REALLY rare. On a well managed range, or on a hunt with experienced hunters, the risk of injury is almost nil. Moreover, nearly every state has a required training program (Hunter Safety Course) that you must complete in order to make use of your gun. Following the rules of a safe hunter will almost always eliminate the risk of gunshot injury. Also, the use of firearms is a constitutionally protected activity, and while the NRA plays an important role in monitoring government attempts to limit ownership of firearms, the reality is that the government itself is under a pretty strong imperative to assure that gun owners rights are preserved.

On the otherhand, a model airplane, even flown by the best pilot taking the utmost of care is subject to outside influences that could send it into the spectators or cause property damage through no fault of the user. Even the best pilots crash one now and then, and some of us crash them every weekend whether it is from dumb thumb, radio glitch, or structural failure. Moreover, there is no constitutional right to fly model airplanes. The FAA, FCC, or BATFE could make an administrative ruling overnight that could ground every one of us. If you don't believe me, talk to a model rocket flyer. Having AMA around as a lobbying agency to preserve our frequencies, our relatively unregulated airspace and the legality of our fuels is at least as important as the insurance.

As for the primary/secondary insurance issue, this keeps coming up, and the response is that you probably couldn't afford to join the AMA if their coverage was primary. While the rising cost of insurance has resulted in higher AMA dues in recent years, if AMA was primary, the cost of administration of the coverage alone would exceed the current dues, and the cost of the premium would be even greater than that. If AMA was primary, it would mean underwriting each modeler using a risk analysis similar to that which goes into insuring your car or home except that the market for model airplane insurance is so small that the insuror could not employ the economies of scale that keep your Homeowners and Auto insurance in the realm of affordability.

AMA provides the necessary, but secondary insurance as an added benefit of membership in a competition sanctioning, educational, non-profit organization. As long as insurance is a membership benefit and not it's sole purpose, AMA can contract to purchase insurance for a relatively low cost per member.

Even if it is true that the provision of insurance is the only reason many members join, the fact that AMA is NOT an insurance company and is therefore not subject to individual regulation by each of the 50 states is what allows it to offer insurance far more cheaply than if it converted itself into "The Model Airplane Insurance Company".

The bottom line is, be glad it's cheap, and hope you never need it.

[Daniel11]

Join!




-

[Jim Branaum]

Jim, I think I have to completely disagree. A gun in the hands of even a moderately trained user is only slightly more dangerous than a rubber chicken, and a bit less dangerous than a can of sardines (you could cut yourself on the lid y'know).

SNIP



ROFLOL! Sorry sir, but you missed my point entirely. Danger and RISK are different as the approach to the world shown by the AMA and NRA highlight. In addition your comment that ALL states REQUIRE gun safety courses before issuing hunting licenses is wrong.I will give you another look at the example.

I am trained and have experience in the use of various firearms and assure you that I have proven to be much more deadly with them than I am (or could be) with RC aircraft! That means that *I* am more DANGEROUS with firearms than RC aircraft, it does NOT mean there is more risk.

The point is that a properly used firearm has less risk than a properly used RC aircraft when you define risk as the ability to control what is going to be hit and what is subject to outside influnces. That means that the shooting range guy provides his own insurance as you are (or had better be) under his control.

We agree on the bottom line, but it sure is strange how we get there.

[ctdahle]

Hey Jim,

If there are states that don't require the completion of a Hunter Safety Course (and I'm not doubting you if you say so, I just thought it was nearly universal US practice), please list them so I will know to avoid them! :eek:

As for which are more dangerous, I guess it depends on the definition of dangerous. The gun is not dangerous unless the person wielding it is dangerous, either by deliberation or stupidity. Guns don't kill people...(its those silly bullets actually... ;) ). On the other hand, the model airplane can be dangerous even if the person weilding it is trying to be safe.

At bottom, this is the reason for the difference in the liability scheme between shooting enthusiasts and model airplane enthusiasts (I am both). It is not a difference in philosophy, but one of practical reality. The gun is far more dangerous if you are trying to cause damage. The airplane is less dangerous, but more likely to cause damage by accident. Death by gunshot will generally result in criminal prosecution if not jail. Mishap by model airplane will result in haggles with the insurance company, and while these are not pleasant, they are not the deterent that jail is to gunplay.

I don't worry about insurance on the rifle range or in the duck blind because, as taught by my father from the time I was allowed to tag along, I make sure I know where the muzzle is pointing, and I make sure anyone I hunt with is equally careful. In a hunting accident, I am either dead, or going to jail, both incentives to be extremely safe, and neither of which can be corrected by insurance.

On the other hand, at the flying field, I not only make sure I have insurance, but also that everyone around me has it too. I can be unpleasant about safety rules if they are broken, but the reality is that beginners, doing the best they can may still end up with a plane behind the flightline. Reciever batteries do fail. Control surfaces do flutter and separate, and while these events generally result in a crash out in the overfly area or on the runway, there is still a greater chance of a plane accidently crashing in the pits or the parking lot than there is of a stray shot hitting me on a hunt or at a well run range. In a model airplane accident, I will most likely either cause, or suffer property damage, and for that, insurance is the answer.

[Jim Branaum]

Start with Texas and then I am sure there are other states, probably Wisconson (based on recent news reports from there) is amoungst them.

We agree on the rest of the issues.

[flybike]

Wisconsin requires a hunters safety course.

[Spencer J]

I'm a new member, and have been told that it's worth it-espicaly for gyms,wehre people are there in the 100's.

[SharksTooth]

Right now is a pretty bad time for AMA. Unfortunately modellers who wish to compete are required to have AMA. If it was not for that I would not even bother carrying the renewal form to the trash. I'd have it sent back to the sender. The main problems start at the top with the leadership...or lack thereof. We have a President who has basically done nothing except to stir up trouble, get in with manufacturers and use his "clout" to make rules which give those manufactuers an advantage over the competetion...come to think of it, one of those manufacturers replied to this very topic! :rolleyes: He has singlehandedly caused some of the biggest wars I have ever seen on the forums, has pushed the EC into making rules that have had to be repealed by the EC after coherrent thought. We are gonna have to put up with this for yet another term becasue those who do vote, don't even take the time to find out about who they are voting for. They just check a mark on the name they "recognize". With these elections you could probably put Satan as an Incumbent and they would elect him...which is pretty much what they have done. We had Dave Mathewson running against this guy, and when I think of all that would have been acomplished it just makes me madder than he--. :mad: Oh! BTW, that insurance...it's not what it's cracked up to be either. It USED to be before Brown got in there and let the Insurance companies Edited for content by moderator down all of our coverage to where there really isn't much left. Anyone remember the fiasco about Lithium Polymer Batteries where the AMA spammed everybody with a ill conceived scare tactic that basically had all kinds of false and misleading info in it? Guess who the ring leader of that one was? You guessed it... DB! Does anyone out there realize this is the same person who goes out and tries to "rule out" any facet of model aviation that doesn't inetrest him? This list includes but is not limited to the Jet guys, IMAC, Electric, Giant Scale, Pylon, and 3D. Aw, I almost forgot recod attempts! The guy goes out and gets involved with the TAM 5 project which was built by one of the greatest modellers to ever live, and then goes out and stabs the guy right square in the back by saying that "Recod attempts should never be allowed". Whew! I tell 'ya man. I belive the AMA should have a rule that the people who run for office must be approved by the EC even if they are Incumbents. If you ask me, this guy should be impeached! I doubt it will ever happen, but it sure would be nice!

[Hanagar]

SharksTooth,

This is a little harsh. Do you have facts to backup your accusations?

Granted - I don't know Dave Brown, I don't know Dave Mathewson, and I don't know much about the political crap to which you're referring.

I have only ever seen a lot of Dave Brown bashing, both here and in other locations.

[SharksTooth]

I don't think harsh is the word I'd use. If it wasn't true of course it would be harsh. As for facts? You betcha! The fiasco with the battery scare tactic doesn't even have to be backed up. Every modeler that had a valid e-mail address on file got the e-mail, and within an hour it was brought up on here, and the folks were just a little perturbed (to put it mildly) that it was full of of misleading and untruthful information. There are threads right here on RC Groups concerning that e-mail. The TAM-5 incident was printed right in the President's (and I use that term loosely) column, and later in that same column an attempt at a retraction was made later, but no apology was ever made. See Model Aviation's past issues. Our insurance coverage is now almost non-existent compared to what it used to be, anybody who has had AMA membership knows that. On top of that our dues have went through the dang roof. I remember when dues were less than 20 bucks! Now I know we can't go back to those days, but when the AMA has a reserve of over 2 million dollars and that reserve has been steadily climbing, our dues have been steadily climbing, and our insurance coverage has been steadily going down...well, you do the math. Rule 7 was brought to the EC by DB himself. Check the minutes of the EC if you want to see this. 3D pilots across the country have thumbed their noses at that one, it's stupid, it has pissed off the 3D community and it's only because of DB's own agenda. The rule was later repealed by the EC "after coherent thought" and this too can seen in the EC minutes. The guys has made rule after rule after rule on the Jet Pilots. Rules that the JPO itself has said were not in the interest of safety but made because of an agenda. I wouldn't even bring up some of those rules, because there are Jet Pilots out there that have flown for years safely and are LIVID about them...if you do, I'd suggest taking 3 giant steps backwards. IMAC? Well he singlehandedly run off 2 TOC competitors from ever competing at the NATS again. They now come and watch occasionally but don't fly any longer. Let's see now, pylon...oh boy...here's another facet of model aviation that has damn near been ruined beyond repair. Remember formula 1? It doesn't exist anymore does it. Instead there have been classes added for the new muffled (read that as choked down beyond running until they figured out how to get them back up to speed again) classes and participation dropped beyond belief. Now onto the electrics which alot of us are interested in here at RC Groups. This guy has was the ring leader of the infamous spam wave on the batteries, has *tried* (but not succeeded) to mandate requirements that would effectively put all cottage industry, and most major manufacturers (except the one he has in his pocket) out of business. This move would ruin every bit of growth the electric hobby has experienced since these batteries inception. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure these things out. Most people are not aware of where to find the minutes, and don't keep up with things like this, and this is the problem we face. All of this is right there on the national website, and more info can be had by simply talking with an EC member or AVP. Because of this, people like this continue to get elected, and we all pay the price for it. I'm waiting to see if these kinds of things continue now that more people are aware of them, or what is gonna happen. I'm hoping nothing will happen until we can get real leadership back in the org's highest office. Doggone we had a golden opportunity. It was funny you brought up politics. This has nothing AT ALL to do with politics. It has to do with doing what is right, and not causing damage to the hobby. The reason you have seen some DB bashing is because of the things I just wrote. If you don't do dirty crap like that you can't very well get bashed for it can you?

[Don Sims]

Gents please follow the forum and site guidelines. You can have your say without any profanity or making personal attacks.
Thanks,
Don

[ira d]

plane and simple people are geting tired of rules that have little are nothing
to do with saffety. also the AMA should stop telling clubs not to let you
fly if you dont have AMA ins.

If something went wrong the AMA would tell you to first use that other ins
that was not good enough to fly with in the first place.

[Hanagar]

Every AMA-sanctioned field needs to provide the AMA-insured requirement in order to maintain their charter. AMA protects not only its individual members, but it's chartered clubs as well.

I look at the 'rules', and many of them do have safety in mind. Some may not be perfectly thought out before implementation, however I still believe that their intend was good.

The battery tactic was a little strong, I believe, but in the end, the intended message was "BE CAREFUL WITH LI-POLY BATTERIES". That's what I read from that. If you aren't aware of how they can be dangerous, and don't know how to handle them (and know what some warning signs are), you, or someone very close to you can be hurt very seriously.

I'm still unsure why this is all Dave Brown's fault, though. Many of the postings I've seen really make him out to be a horrible guy; I, for one, can't believe that.
- Dave

P.S. Don, I apologize if I went outside the site/forum guidelines. I'm just a little tired of hearing all these attacks with unfounded facts. And (obviously!), I'm not a huge fan of politics, whether it be for President of the US, Governor of the State of Washington (no, we really still don't know who our governor is), or President of the AMA.

[J_R]

Facts:

The commercial policy from the AMA has added coverage over the last several years, not decreased it. As an example, casual paid instructors are now covered.

The e-mail sent to the AMA membership was sent by the Safety Committee at almost the same time Dave Brown’s column in MA about Li batteries appeared. Some information contained in each was the subject of debate. The column and the e-mail did not come from the same source. DB had no input into the e-mail.

Dave Brown has a very keen interest in every aspect of model aviation.

The AMA by-laws have a provision for the Election Committee, made up of all AMA VPs, to review the candidacy of each incumbent. A vote of ¾ of them would keep an incumbent off the ballot.

Dues was raised, primarily due to increases in the cost of the commercial insurance policy, due to 9/11. Of the 10 dollar increase, 7 was earmarked for additional insurance costs.

The AMA has reserves for several reasons. The first $250,000 of each insurance claim is self-insured (the AMA pays it). Reserves are required in this area by the commercial insurance company so they have a comfort zone that the AMA will be able to live up to it’s obligations under the policy. Reserves are also necessary due to the educational state of Indiana bonds that were obtained to re-finance the debt of the AMA a couple of years ago. Maintenance of those reserves is a requirement of the low interest rate bonds.

The current RC rule 7 was put in specifically to stop an act that was being done by one of the top pilots in the world. His assistant would go out, while a very large plane was hovering and clean the canopy with Windex and a rag. The addition to that rule, the then infamous rule 9, appeared in the 2004 Safety Code without a vote by the EC, to prevent touching parts of an aircraft other than landing gear to the ground. That portion of the rule was repealed by a vote of the EC and the rule returned to the current state. When the Safety Code was re-written last year by Bob Underwood’s committee, the then rule 9 became the current RC rule 7. There are very few complaints about rule 7, the way it is now structured, nor were there about rule 9 when it was worded as rule 7 is now.

The TOC was not an AMA sanctioned event in the end. Bill Bennett allowed the rules for the TOC to be changed so that there was no weight requirement. Without a weight limit, the TOC could not be sanctioned by the AMA. Mr. Bennett financed the TOC to the tune of 9 million dollars over the life of the event.

The current turbine rules were proposed by the JPO. They were voted on and accepted exactly the way the JPO wrote them.

Pylon. The EC gets involved only with safety issues. The current rules for pylon requiring a setback from people and things being a good example, after the expensive safety cages the AMA produced for pylon failed and people were put at risk. The rules that cover the event are those that are suggested and that make it through rules change process. These actions are through the SIG (special interest group) and items like mufflers are a good example of this.

Fred Marks (electroman) of FMA was one of Dave Brown’s biggest detractors in the spate over Li batteries. He posted here in opposition to Dave Brown, tried to run a soapbox article in MA to counter Browns remarks, and openly supported Dave Mathewson for AMA President.

Opinion:

Dave Brown has become obsessed with “risk management” and should return his attention to the furtherance of model aviation. He does not hate modelers, model aviation, nor is he stupid. Claims that he is “in bed” with manufacturers, to the detriment of other manufacturers is unfounded. His actions might affect some manufactures, but they are based on his view of “risk management”. The guys spends a lot of his own money, rather than the Presidents budget. He returns most of the money the AMA budgets for his expenses to the AMA.