Northern Virginia: F5B Electric Glider Contest, May 22

[down_shift]

NVRC is hosting an AMA sanctioned F5B electric sailplane contest on May 22. All types of sailplanes are welcomed. The three events that take place in one flight are a 200 second distance event, a 600 second duration event, and a spot landing. Edit - Depending on turnout, duration event may be reduced to 300 seconds. See discussion in tread #10 below.

Many thanks to our primary sponsors: Castle Creations, Northeast Sailplanes, Robotic Power Solutions (BattlePack), Hobby Hanger, FMA Direct, Dougs Hobby, Radical RC, and Shredair.

Plaques through 3rd and awards.

Click here for the printable flier (http://1nvrc.com/2004-F5B-Sailplane.html) that contains directions and general info.

Here is an update on the generosity of our event sponsors and a listing of the award prizes that have arrived so far:

Castle Creations (www.castlerc.com): four (4) Phoenix 25 brushless ESCs and two (2) Pixie-20 brushed ESCs.

NorthEast Sailplane Products (www.nesail-online.com): one (1) Omega 1.8E (www.nesail-online.com/detail.php?productID=130).

BattlePack (www.battlepack.com): two (2) $75 gift certificates.

Hobby Hangar (www.hobbyhangarva.com): Triton DC Computerized Peak Charger with thermal Probe.

FMA Direct (www.fmadirect.com): five (5) Premiere Series Sub Micro Ps-20 servos and one (1) Quantum 6 Sub Micro Receiver.

Doug's Hobby (www.dougshobby.com): one (1) $50 gift certificate and two (2) $25 gift certificates.

Radical RC (www.radicalrc): two (2) $25 off $100 order gift certificates.

Shredair (www.shredair.com): two (2) gift certificates redeemable for thier hats (www.shredair.com/knick.html).

Please show your support by considering these vendors during your next purchase. If it was not for our sponsors, this event would not have materialized.

For those in a quick need of repair, Performance Flight (www.Performanceflight.com) will be sitting up a booth stocked with everything for your e-flight needs; large Phoenix ESCs, various sub-C packs, Berg receivers, Shultze chargers, etc.

Check back in a few days as details are still being worked out with our remaining sponsors.

[soholingo]

Man, I can't wait for this...

Russ, thanks for putting this together!!!

[Alan W]

What are the different classes ?? or are there any ??

[down_shift]

Originally posted by Alan W
What are the different classes ?? or are there any ??

Alan,

One class = Open.

All intentions are to run the F5B contest by the book. 150 meters between base A and B, etc. However, we will follow a "loose" interpretation of the F5B airframe requirements. The reason is none of the 60-inch hotliners meet these requirements. These planes do not meet the minimum weight requirement of F5B and do not meet the minimum wing area requirement of F5F. If the F5B/F airframe requirement were strictly enforced, it would preclude too many people.

We will probably ban lipos on true Hotliner / F5B / F5F type planes (like the F5B/F rules). But if someone shows up with a Gentle Lady and lipos, that is fine and they are welcome to join the festivities.

Our intentions are to have fun and attempt to promote this sport. As such, one class for the masses and all sailplanes (AMA oldtimers, F5J, hotliners, etc.) are welcome.

Hope you can make the drive down!

-Russell

[Alan W]

So, no designation between 7, 10 or Welder class ??

I understand its all for fun....and thats GREAT.

I'll talk it up at the SEFLI Website and our next meeting.....there are at least 4 of us that fly the heavy Iron for fun. Between us and the NJ crew we should have at least a few carloads

[sneu]

Originally posted by down_shift
Alan,

One class = Open.


We will probably ban lipos on true Hotliner / F5B / F5F type planes (like the F5B/F rules). But if someone shows up with a Gentle Lady and lipos, that is fine and they are welcome to join the festivities.

Our intentions are to have fun and attempt to promote this sport. As such, one class for the masses and all sailplanes (AMA oldtimers, F5J, hotliners, etc.) are welcome.

Hope you can make the drive down!

-Russell

I would let the lithium powered planes fly--the event as it is give no advantage to the longer duration motor runs that lithiums offer. As of now they can't be discharged at a high enough rate to be of any advantage.

Sounds like a good way to get going with F5B type events. We do pretty much the same thing with respect to letting just about anything fly. We often cut the duration down to 5 minutes as 10 minutes just makes for a long day. In most cases the event is won or lost in the distance part-duration does little to seperate the fliers.

Steve

[omri]

hello everyone!

I think i have a good idea for f5b club contest rules:

all the fai rules apply accept for minimal weight, and wing area
no lipos
the competitor score will be divided by the weight of the battery pack used in kilograms (light pack=more points)


this will make life easier for a7cell model when there are higer powerd models in the same competition.

I hope this system will work for us here in israel later this year

have fun

[Yogi]

I agree with Steve on the duration task. We had only 10-15 flyers at Denver last summer, and we flew only a 3 minute duration. Over the course of two days I still only got to fly the course 4 times. If you have a bunch of folks, and everyone has to do a 10 minute duration task, unless you stack people finishing the thermal task at the same time as the next guy is doing the distance task, you will never get more than one round of flying in. I really wish I could come, but distance limitations are huge for me. I'm looking at 650+ miles.

~~fred

[GoodTill]

" I LOVE YOU, MAN" with a tear in his eye he said.


Even though I have to take me kid for a camping trip that night at 6 pm and it is a 4 hr drive, I will be there!!!!!!!


sobbing over my computer

Mike

[down_shift]

Glad this is generating some interest on the east coast! Why let the folks in San Diego, Portland, and Europe have all the fun?

Have been giving some thought about the 200 sec distance followed by a 600 sec duration. 13 minutes and 20 seconds is a long time and I can see how it would swallow up the day in a hurry.

Stacking, as Yogi mentioned, is what I had in mind originally. Something to the effect of grouping two pilots per flight and each flight be 20 minutes apart. Example:

Flight 1 9:20am: Soholingo and Green (that's me ;))

Jay launches at 9:20 and I launch around 9:25 (or as soon as Jay has completed the distance portion). Jay lands at 9:33 and I am down at 9:38.

The first pilot of Flight 2 launches at 9:40am and the second pilot launches at 9:45am.

Flight 3 starts at 10:00am, etc.

Although this represents a tight schedule, it is obtainable from a logistics standpoint and provides adequate time for the first plane to clear the distance portion before the second plane enters it. It also provides adequate time for the first plane to land and clear the field before it is time for the second plane to land. The "timers" from the first flight would also have time to record the scores and be ready for the first launch of Flight 2.

However, as Fred and Steve mention, this schedule provides 6 flights per hour which is setting us up for a long day. If the duration was cut down to 300 sec (5 min) as proposed, we could see up to 12 flights per hour by following the same logic of being ready to launch when the preceding guy finishes the distance portion. Logistics w/ the timers and paper work would probably be the limiting factor, but I am starting to see the need to cut down the duration as well.

Steve - how many flights do your events get in per hour? Please keep in mind, that the landing zone will be between the pilot line and base A/B. Looking at our field (http://www.pbase.com/image/16867583), the pilot's line is at the circles on the left, the landing zone is obviously the cut grass, and the area for the distance legs is over the tall grass to the right.

Mike - glad you can make the trip down! BTW - I will be up in Little Silver over Easter weekend. I don't know northern Jersey at all, but I will try to hit that RC field about 30 miles northwest of there on Sat.

Alan W - perhaps next year we can break it down into 7, 10, and >10 Welder classes. If interest shows otherwise, we could reconsider in a few weeks (but just don't expect plaques for new classes from the AMA as their lead time is ~ 8 weeks!). For now, I just hope that not many 18-24 cell ships show up and steal all the loot! I will leave w/ that teaser for now.

[down_shift]

Just a quick update to let everyone know that two additional sponsors have generously offered to help make this event a reality:

Dougs Hobby (www.dougshobby.com), the original Mail Order Specialist

and

FMA Direct (www.fmadirect.com).

Many thanks to all our sponsors!

[Aobid]

Ahh dude! I am there!!! Downer, thanks for all the prizes that I will be taking home with me.............since there won't be anyone that's worth a challenge.


Hmm, trying to think if I should rent a van to take home the goodies........

Downer, you will go down quick, I've seen you fly and it aint pretty.

Soho, you'll be too busy worrying about the tape and glue flying off your junkie gliders.............I'll be passing you up like your standing still.

Any others, you might as well stay home because I'll be the only winner there.................

Sorry to put it to you this way but that's how it's gonna go down.........just telling the truth!

Fast and slick A

[cgay1]

I'll be there... Now I just gotta find something to fly!

-Chris

[Yogi]

OK....here we go again. lil' Aobiddie talking trash again. Someone kick his behind in this contest, and make him shut up! :D I wish it could be me but unfortunately I won't be able to make it...this year.

~~fred

[GoodTill]

Ahh dude! I am there!!! Downer, thanks for all the prizes that I will be taking home with me.............since there won't be anyone that's worth a challenge.


Hmm, trying to think if I should rent a van to take home the goodies........

Downer, you will go down quick, I've seen you fly and it aint pretty.

Soho, you'll be too busy worrying about the tape and glue flying off your junkie gliders.............I'll be passing you up like your standing still.

Any others, you might as well stay home because I'll be the only winner there.................

Sorry to put it to you this way but that's how it's gonna go down.........just telling the truth!

Fast and slick A


In your best Tweety voice:


He don't know me very well, do he!!!

[Alan W]

In your best Tweety voice:


He don't know me very well, do he!!!

I do.....and my advice to anyone attending:

If Mike's had Beer for dinner and Bratwurst for breakfast.....stand Wayyyyy Uppp wind

I'm trying to twist 2 other SEFLI guys' arms into coming......FastFrankie and JoeSuprise

For plotting directions, can you give me a zip code of the closest town (for Mapquest??) How far frome Dulles ?? (is it still Dulles ?? or Reagan ??)

Also - If I dont have another person coming....my last resort would be to stuff my friend into his Dakota and have him fly down - whats the closest General Aviation airport ??

Thanks.....

[soholingo]

Ahh dude! I am there!!! Downer, thanks for all the prizes that I will be taking home with me.............since there won't be anyone that's worth a challenge.


Hmm, trying to think if I should rent a van to take home the goodies........

Downer, you will go down quick, I've seen you fly and it aint pretty.

Soho, you'll be too busy worrying about the tape and glue flying off your junkie gliders.............I'll be passing you up like your standing still.

Any others, you might as well stay home because I'll be the only winner there.................

Sorry to put it to you this way but that's how it's gonna go down.........just telling the truth!

Fast and slick A

And you are going to do all of this with what? A sunracer or your GWS Corsair???

[down_shift]

I do.....and my advice to anyone attending:

If Mike's had Beer for dinner and Bratwurst for breakfast.....stand Wayyyyy Uppp wind

I'm trying to twist 2 other SEFLI guys' arms into coming......FastFrankie and JoeSuprise

For plotting directions, can you give me a zip code of the closest town (for Mapquest??) How far frome Dulles ?? (is it still Dulles ?? or Reagan ??)

Also - If I dont have another person coming....my last resort would be to stuff my friend into his Dakota and have him fly down - whats the closest General Aviation airport ??

Thanks.....

Alan, glad to hear that a car load of you can make it down from NY!

Here is a MapQuest link to the field (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?location=8nHx6mgfPb5Re%2bm%2b8wg9Iz1xZBj8h AG%2bE6E4zluLF93fVoaj%2bOFAo6jZ6b2ZJO6aolspiq92rU7 gyxOBhE8WbigIIO%2b6q4MYRmffWLU4lRbirAm0x284lPeva41 XERKilBWcZrDTzzw%3d&searchtype=address&searchtab=address&countryid=250&address=Amethyst%20Lane&city=chantilly&state=VA&zipcode=&country=US&addtohistory=).

We are within a few miles of Washington Dulles Int'l Airport. The closest general aviation airport would be Leesburg or Manassas. Both within 30 minutes or so.

[down_shift]

And you are going to do all of this with what? A sunracer or your GWS Corsair???

Aobid's sunracer should be fun to watch. Granted, it will enter the course at 140mph, but how will it do with a 4 leg climb or that duration?

Geng will be flying his sunracer, too. Or that yet to have flown 16-cell Bandit we have all read about.

For other participants who have yet to post, we will also see a 10-cell 75-in Flash, 10-cell Caleb, 9-cell (or 3S2P) Filip E, and a pair of Bandits.

I am not sure about the folks from the Capital Area Soaring Association. I have received a few phone inquires, but where are you guys? The Spring Sizzle is not until the following week.

Everyone - be forewarned. If the ground temperature warms up to 64 degrees anytime between May 8 until the event, it could get interesting for our leading edges. It is the year of the 17-yr Cicada, and there could be billions of them.

[tagheuer]

i'm taking everything .. prizez, money, girls, food... planes. equiptment.. ALL OF IT!!! and i'm taking aobid home with me as well..

[tagheuer]

Yes They Deserved To Die.. And I Hope They Burn In Hell!!!!!

[tufnik]

Hi,

I usually fly at Gude (CASA field) in Rockville, MD. Not sure how your contest works, but am interested. I think I can make it there on 22nd. I usually fly high performance (Sirius, Victor, Laser, and others. 10-16 cells).

thanks,
Efren (alias tufnik)
Fairfax, VA

[down_shift]

Hi,

I usually fly at Gude (CASA field) in Rockville, MD. Not sure how your contest works, but am interested. I think I can make it there on 22nd. I usually fly high performance (Sirius, Victor, Laser, and others. 10-16 cells).

thanks,
Efren (alias tufnik)
Fairfax, VA

Efren, great that you can make it out. Regarding the rules, Mike Seale has the condensed version on his website (http://f5b.co.uk/rules.htm) and provides a link to the FAI site for additional information. This weekend, some of us will be practicing at NVRC. Send a PM if interested.

[tdearman]

Russ-

Thanks for getting this all organized. It seems to be shaping into good 1st, but perhaps annual event…especially with the sponsors you’ve managed to land. As a newcomer to F5B (or whatever this is), it’ll be good to see how the various combinations of equipment and strategy turn in some good laps, duration, etc. I’ve been tinkering with a couple of ships-I’m sure after the event I’ll have a new approach!

Count me in for sure and pray for good weather.

TD

[eye_rc_soar]

Russ

If my schedule allow me to finish my e-banana and get in a few flights before the event, I'll try and make it. If the banana is not finished, I'll have my new ION/Hoot as a back-up. Glad someone has a contest where we can try out what F5B is all about. It will be interesting how the hotliners perform against the dedicated F5B machines. (It will be more like how those who have never tried flying F5B legs versus those who know how to fly the legs.)

Don

[HavingFun2002]

I'll be bringing along my Bandit and Aspire, hot and cold.

See you there.

[down_shift]

Just a quick update on the generosity of our event sponsors. Please see edits to the first post on this tread.

Thanks
-RG

[Aobid]

When is this? I might make a show.

[eldablo]

I will be there.
it is only 7 hours drive overnight.
I hope to see some fast flying airplanes???
How many planes will do over 100mph there?
eldablo

[down_shift]

I will be there.
it is only 7 hours drive overnight.
I hope to see some fast flying airplanes???
How many planes will do over 100mph there?
eldablo
Good question. I would guess that half of the planes will be at or over 100mph when entering base A (level flight) for the distance portion. During lunch and after the contest, perhaps a few of the hotter setups will exceed 150mph in a dive for you!

[GoodTill]

Well we did some testing this weekend with a couple of planes.
A 7 cell Surprise 9, a 10 cell Simba and a 24 cell Ariane V11.

No one wanted to put the radar gun on the Ariane, heck nobody wanted to launch it. They were afraid, very afraid!!

The Simba after 4 long years of service, finally hit the clap switch for the wing in the air.

The S9 was clocked at 97mph with the motor on straight and level. It goes much faster with a little dive. We could not get a reading unless the prop was spinning. Bigger frontal area I guess.

See you next week

Mike

[Yogi]

Hey,

You guys need to make sure that you post results that include number of laps, and what plane each person was flying. And also take a group picture. I'm interested in who does well, and how they do, so I know what my east coast competition looks like. :)

~~fred

[down_shift]

hello everyone!

I think i have a good idea for f5b club contest rules:

all the fai rules apply accept for minimal weight, and wing area
no lipos
the competitor score will be divided by the weight of the battery pack used in kilograms (light pack=more points)


this will make life easier for a7cell model when there are higer powerd models in the same competition.

I hope this system will work for us here in israel later this year

have fun

omri - thanks for the suggestion on a method to level the scoring. For this year, we will continue to have one "open" class without factoring pack size or weight. Granted, people on light packs (like myself on 10 FAUPs) are going to get flogged by the heavy iron that is showing up. Perhaps next year we will break it into two classes, < 10 cells and > 10 cells.

It appears that leveling the scoring based on pack weight tilts the scoring too much in favor of the lighter packs. Example:

Plane A using 10 GP3300 cells scores 1000 pts
Plane B using 10 4/5FAUP cells scores 891 pts.

Leveling based on pack weight:
Plane A = (1000 pts) / [(10 cells)(0.062 kg / cell)] = 1612 pts
Plane B = (891 pts) / [(10 cells)(0.039 kg / cell)} = 2284 pts and wins?

The injustice on the heaver cells is apparent. For this example, Plane B would only have to score 630 pts to beat Plane A and this would happen each and every time. Assume Plane A and Plane B both nail 10 minutes in the duration, use 10 seconds of motor run, and land inside 10 meters in the spot landing. If Plane A had 30 legs and Plane B had 20 legs, Plane A would receive 1000 points and Plane B would receive 891 points and would win. Even if Plane B had zero legs, it would still score 674 points and win.

As such, I don't believe we could divide the score on pure pack weight. Perhaps divide by some other constant based on number and weight of cells.

[Aobid]

Wow, now that's a mouthful!!

[down_shift]

Many thanks to Robotic Power Solutions (BattlePacks), our new sponsor for the F5B contest:

BattlePack (www.battlepack.com): two (2) $75 gift certificates

Funny - Steve said he was busy filling GP3300 orders for this event!

[eye_rc_soar]

Russ

How about an organized pre-fly/practice of the actual course. It would be nice for some of us really novice F5B flyers to fly a real course with someone calling turns. Personally I would be interested in knowing ahead of time approximately how many legs I can expect to fly in 300 seconds. Do I only do 2 legs with each climb, or do I have time to try and squeeze some 4 leg sessions in there? There should be enough of us reasonably close to get a couple evenings practice in before the event.

Shucks, it will even train more of us to help you run an efficient contest.

You realize that all of this F5B playing and practicing is going to force me to miss my normal CASA TD and F5J contest this weekend. I figure it will be more fun to practice with the funfly F5B ship this weekend than travel to the CASA contests at Horsefeathers. Only so much time can be spent away from the wife....

Don

[down_shift]

Russ

How about an organized pre-fly/practice of the actual course. It would be nice for some of us really novice F5B flyers to fly a real course with someone calling turns. Personally I would be interested in knowing ahead of time approximately how many legs I can expect to fly in 300 seconds. Do I only do 2 legs with each climb, or do I have time to try and squeeze some 4 leg sessions in there? There should be enough of us reasonably close to get a couple evenings practice in before the event.

Shucks, it will even train more of us to help you run an efficient contest.

Don

All of us except for Mike are going to be novices when it comes to next Sat. Grab Jay for some practice at CASA or make it out to NVRC one evening. The timers on computerized transmitters are very useful. Set a countdown timer at 3:23 (3 seconds to account for turning the timer on then the launch) and "eyeball" 150 meters. Or simply pace it off to get a feeling of the distance. You can probably get within 10% of the actual course without a caller. Regarding 2 or 4 leg climbs, with 1500 watts on tap, you better be practicing getting in a few 4 leg climbs. Keep in mind that you have a maximum of 10 climbs in the 3:20 duration. Time the motor run necessary for a 5 minute glide, or two 2.5 minute glides. Also practice to see how long it takes to land with a normal approach. Nail the spot landing, but don't sacrifice the airframe while doing it.

The bigger part of the "training" equation will be the dexterity of our timers. Let's see......start the 3:20 countdown timer with the left hand......then the moment the 3:20 timer goes off, start the stopwatch (duration) with your right hand, and hopefully, start the second stopwatch (motor run) assuming pilot simultaneously starts his duration climb. Then a few seconds later when the pilot yells "motor off," remember to stop the motor run stopwatch, not the duration stopwatch. Repeat w/ same stopwatch when you hear "motor on," etc. Don't forget to call out 30 seconds remaining, 20, 10, 5,4,3,2,1 for the duration and distance. The scorer's job will be easier by counting the legs and motor runs, and recording the duration time, motor run time, and landing distance. Compiling the scores will be easy thanks to Mike Seale's MS Excel spreadsheet which is set up to spoon feed the data entry and spit out adjusted scores.

Regardless, that is a lot to think about with the base b pizeo buzzer going off constantly and the general excitement of the day.

[down_shift]

Yesterday, NorthEast Sailplane Products (www.nesail-online.com) just shipped down what will most likely be the grand prize: one (1) Omega 1.8E (www.nesail-online.com/detail.php?productID=130)!

Please send your thanks to Caroline (and Sal, too ;)) at NES!

[down_shift]

Marcela and Dieter at Shredair (www.shredair.com) just joined the party with a pair of their wide long bill, back flap, neck strapped hats (www.shredair.com/knick.html). You too can look like one of the pros! ;)

Thanks!

[GoodTill]

Will be selling my 10 cell Hacker carbon LMR/F5B motor at the meet. I would rather sell it to one of the guys at the meet.

See
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2187543#post2187543

Thanks
Mike

[eye_rc_soar]

Bring your check book. I want to unload an unbuilt e-banana. I put in a motor mount and opened up some access holes in the wing saddle. I discovered the max number of cells is 8 FAUP and stopped. I've become a high power junkie. GP 3300 cells or nothing. Don't want to have to ship it, even though it will be in the box used to ship to me. No reasonable offer refused, I don't want to go home with it.

don

[Alan W]

Mike - I might be interested in the motor - is it more powerful than the Aveox 27/39/1 on maxon 4.4 ?? That can reportedly handle 90A burst.....the Hacker lists 70A ?? What level were you running it at ....prop....and in what airframe ?? Its for my Ariane V10

Guys.....Im going to have to pass on this weekends event. My father is not well and I just wouldn't have much fun knowing Im not there for him.

Thats funny about Steve @ BattlePacks.....he just filled my order for 2x10 1950FAUP and 2x10 GP3300 :D

[soholingo]

Alan W, that motor is good to 150 amps... and it will haul on 10-14 cells. I used on 10 and pulled around 100 amps with a 17x13 prop

[GoodTill]

Alan I was using it on a 16/16 prop and it was very powerfull on 10 cells. I am selling it because I have a new Pletty and I don't need 2 10 cell motors right now. It was in my 2m F5F plane and it was at about 100 amps off of 10 3300's. If you want it pm me.

Mike

[down_shift]

Alan, wishing all the best for your dad.

[Ben Diss]

Is anyone available to pick up Mike and me from the airport first thing in the morning?

[down_shift]

Ben, sure we could arrange something. Which airport, Dulles or Leesburg?