THERMALING 4 BEGINNERS--Help area

[aeajr]

I looked at the first vid and noticed that he didnt drop an inch off the top. I always stall that the top(no matter what wind) and fall a good 20ft before i can resume cruising speeds. What could cause that? I always launch with 5 extra steps(no more, no less) than the instructions told me to and with the stationary tow hook @ 1" (or less for the rearward CG witch I usualy fly at) behind the CG point. I launch at the SAME angle the guy in the first vid did and always level out a lil' more than he did to counter the stall(witch usualy doesnt do anything).


Im sure after I get the tow hook moved upto the rearward CG and a good 6mph breeze going I can do a lil' better, but not as good as thoughs 3Ms did.

OK, help me understand. Are you saying you have the tow hook 1 inch behind the CG? That's your problem. You should have the tow hook in front of the CG.

If you are saying you have the CG set 1 in inch behind the recommend CG that will also cause the plane to more easily stall. Put it back to the center of the recommend CG location.

Having the hook behind the CG will cause the plane to climb too steeply and easily stall. Just as your notes above report. A gust of wind should cause the plane to climb, unless it is at too high an angle of attack, climbing too steeply.

move the hook to 1/2 inch in front of the CG. That is where I have it on all my planes. I have three that were built by another guy. He had the hooks on the CG. I put in a second hole in front of the CG.

Change the position and your launches will be better.

[Mchone, Jake]

I have the hook 1 inch infrount of the CG, sorry.. :o
i'll move the hook back to the farward CG becasue I always fly off the rear so some lift can lift the tail easyer and be detected much easyer than a wing lifting.

[aeajr]

I have the hook 1 inch infrount of the CG, sorry.. :o
i'll move the hook back to the farward CG becasue I always fly off the rear so some lift can lift the tail easyer and be detected much easyer than a wing lifting.

Jake, Your post doesn't make sense.

You say you have the hook in front of the CG, then you say you will move the hook back to the forward CG. ?????? :confused:

Did you mean you were going to move the CG back to the more forward CG position? I assume so. :rolleyes:

Jake, forgive me for jumping to conclusions, but I think you need to back to the begining and start over. Here is what I am going to recommend you do. :)

Mark the center of the maker's recommended CG range under the wing and on the fuselage. Where is the hook, relative to that mark? If you have more than one hook hole on the plane, one should be approximately on that mark and one should be in front of it about 3/8 to 1/2 inch. These are your primary launch hook positions. Put your hook in the more forward one.

For comparison purposes, on my Spirit 2M, the manual says the CG can be moved forward or back as much as 5/16". Moving the CG to the rear by 1/2 inch would be a big shift. Your note seems to say you have it back a full inch. That is a HUGE amount. If you were a world class sailplane pilot in TD competition you might do that, but for us more normal sport flyers, that is just too much. The plane will be hard to launch, twitchy to fly, very unstable in wind and hard to land. Sounds like your plane, at least as you describe it.

If someone else is reading this thread and feels I am giving Jake bad advice, PLEASE JUMP IN.

When you are done, I want your CG to be right on the maker's CG mark. The hook position I want you to use is in front of that mark and you should have another hook mount right on that mark.

This will not be the most agressive set-up, but it sounds like you are having handling problems, launch problems and trouble with wind. Time to go back to the begining and start again.

Surface Throws.

Make sure your surface throws are matched to the makers recommendations. If you have a radio with dual rates, I suggest you to set the maker's standard settings on the high side of the dual rate switch then set a low rate of about 70% of that. That is how I have my plane set.

If, and only if you have a radio with dual rates, if you want you can set the high setting up to 20% above normal throws, but I don't recommend this. Then set low rates at 50% of the high setting. This will give you a mild handling position and a wild position.


If you choose to follow my advice, we will have a known starting point, with a model that is set to handle the way it was designed. It may be a little mild, but right now, that is what I would recommend.

When you are REALLY good with the plane set like this, and I am talking about 50 good launches, good flights, and good landings, then you can decide if you want to move the CG back up to 1/2 inch in tiny increments but no more than that.

At some time in the future you may want to move the hook to the back position. However, until you are the master of the plane set to the maker's recommendations, don't "soup it up" with agressive throws or agressive CG positions.

Let me know how you feel about this.

[aeajr]

If you don't have the manual, it can be located here:
http://horizon.hobbyshopnow.com/shared/techinfo/han1475-manual.pdf

Throws are on page 23, CG on 26.


One last point. If you have not put a shaped nose block on the plane yet and just have a blunt nose, this will have a huge impact on the way the plane handles. Be sure you put the nose block on before you do the balancing as the weight will make a huge difference in how you balance the plane and how the plane responds to air currents and wind.

[Mchone, Jake]

Jake, Your post doesn't make sense.
You say you have the hook in front of the CG, then you say you will move the hook back to the forward CG. ??????

There are 2 CG locations! One @ 3 and 1/2" And the other @ 3 and 3/4" . I fly on the rearward CG position of 3 and 3/4s". And the tow hook is about 3/4 to 1 full inch infrount of the forward CG of 3and 1/2"! I am gpoin gto move the Tow Hook to the forward CG location of 3.5". I had it set at one inch infront of that becasue when I first started Hi-Starts I wanted them to be as stable as possible, so I put the Tow Hook at 2.5(give or take a couple mm)inches behind the LE of the wing.
I am sorry for the confuseion! Hope this deal didn't get you agrivated too much.
The control throws are about 3mm more on elevator and full throws on rudder. The Aspire isn't very responsive with turns(rolling in and out) so Ive got the rudder at full throw.
I only have a 4ch Futaba FM radio. Works great for all of my 8 planes(7 of whitch are park flyers :p ) I realy wanted to get a BOT this sommer, but the car's insurance payments didnt allow for it, so, im stuck with the Aspire. I have been able to start work on it yet becasue I haven't got a nose block. Wal-Mart did not have the wood blocks when I went last night, as they did before. And the soonest I can get to Hobby Town in Lexington(an hour away) is sometime next weekend when I goto pick up my Trumpet from repairs. They should have hard wood blocks there, i hope :o
I do not want to start repairs in the Aspire until I know the shape of the nose block. I guess If I realy wanted to I could use some foam to make a decent shape that the final nose block would look like, but i'd rather not. :(
On topick of launches: I have A LOT of launches on her. I usualy fly for about 1-2hours when I fly her and each flight last about 1 min. with an estimated time of 2min inbetween launches. So I estimate that I get upwards of 30 launches(probly 15 "good ones"--good for my plane, anyway) every flying setion. I have well over 80 launches sence I got my Up-Start. I know how to use it and knwo how good launches should go. They worked with my other planes Ive tryed with(SS-SG and lil' FFF gliders ive make) so its the plane thats the problem. I dought its the CG becasue I am very contiance about such important things. Im thinking its the tow hook being 2.5" behind the Leading edge of the wing. But from what you've said, my stalling at the top of the launches is a problem of it being 1inch BEHIND the forward CG(about 4.5" behind the LE). This does not make sence to me. Why woudl I be stalling if the CG is correct, the throws are correct and the "style" of my launches being correct(45 paces back for strech and 30+ degrees of launch angle). The only thing that is wrong here, it seems, is the tow hook position. Tell me where the hook shoudl be, relitive to the position of the farward CG of 3.5" and I will tell you the results after I get the Aspire back up.
Thank you for all the help and concern. I hope we can get this problem fixed soon.

[aeajr]

The tow hook should be 1/4 to 1/2 inch in front of the CG as you have it set on the plane. So, if you are flying with the CG at 3 3/4 back from teh LE, then the tow hook should be about 3 1/4 back from the LE, approximately.

As for the nose block, if you have a 2X4 or a 2X3 in the garage, use a piece of that. That is pine. Go for the lightest piece you can find and try to get a piece with no knots. It will be a little harder to carve than basswood, but should work fine, especially for a first attempt. You have my photos to give you an idea of the shape. It shape is not critical, it just needs to present a more aerodynamic face to the air.

I am happy to help. No agrivation. Just trying to understand what is going on so I can provide some useful advice. I am looking forward to hearing that you caught some lift and got a 20 minute flight and landed it at your feet. :D

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, will do!
I'll look arou dfor some wood. I'll get it fixed on eway or another. IDEA! Couldn't I just make mold out of foam and fill it with epoxy and add a back plate(like an engine mount) to the back and use that! I could screw it on with the back plate and it should more than do until I can get to Lexington! :D (i would removethe foam mold, ofcours and sand it down real smooth). Tell me if it won't work.
As for the 20min. flight!:Have done with the exception of the 20min, lol.
I read in a chart that thermals only last a couple min. at most during the day(around 12) Is this true!? If so: Daggon! How will I ever ride one or 2 long enough for a flight, even over 10min! :eek:

[Seared Ice]

That can't be true. Watch the thermal clouds...however long they last is obviously however long their thermals last! People can ride thermals for a very long time...one thermal could give you a 20 minute flight.
~John

[Mchone, Jake]

Thats what I always thought, John..but by the graph in the Video link i've attached says other wise.
http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=pnaton&templatefn=FileSharing17.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.17.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consumer&cty=US&lang=en
The vid is the second to last vid: "Secrets of Thermals.wmv" 2.5MB. Just click on the pink arrow out to the side.
The chart is aproximatly 20seconds into the vid.
On average a thermal at 2pm can only last about 10 min. One @ 8am and/or 6pm about 1min! See for your self.
Im not trying to prove anyone wrong..but my currect POV is from the graph.

[aeajr]

Ok, will do!
I'll look arou dfor some wood. I'll get it fixed on eway or another. IDEA! Couldn't I just make mold out of foam and fill it with epoxy and add a back plate(like an engine mount) to the back and use that! I could screw it on with the back plate and it should more than do until I can get to Lexington! :D (i would removethe foam mold, ofcours and sand it down real smooth). Tell me if it won't work.

As for the 20min. flight!:Have done with the exception of the 20min, lol.
I read in a chart that thermals only last a couple min. at most during the day(around 12) Is this true!? If so: Daggon! How will I ever ride one or 2 long enough for a flight, even over 10min! :eek:

Go ahead and try the foam an epoxy. Worst that happens is that you don't like how it comes out, or it doesn't hold up to landings. Worth a shot!

As for duration of thermals, 10 min might be the average but that means that some last longer and some shorter.

I have had 30 minute flights that I have dived out of because the thermal was getting too far off the field, so that must have been one of the the above average thermals.

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, I'll try it the next time I get to goto Wally-World to pick up some more epoxy. Im not sur ethat I have enough and the outcome wouldnt be too good without ample epoxy :p
I just notiaced the chart in the vid and wondered about it becasue I always thought as ya'll did. :)
I'll get back you ya' after or during the rebuild, though, I might check out what Hobby Town has when I go. I' dlove to still get a BOT but they might still have the discontinued Aspire G(the pritty blue one :D )

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, i'll try my idea. Just have to get more epoxy to make sure i have enough :p
I thought as ya'll did about thermal durations, but that vid trailer said otherwise :confused: Oh well.... :)

[RandyK1]

Sorry, wrong post

[Seared Ice]

How can you not have enough epoxy? Are you making this a solid block of epoxy? That will throw the balance off more than a block of pine up front... You could use the male version of the foam plug and soak some fiberglass with epoxy and wrap the fiberglass around the plug. Do a couple layers of that and it will be extremely strong...and light.
~John

[aeajr]

If you want, you can take some of the packing foam that comes in TVs, computes and such. The kind that you can squeeze and it springs back. That is EPP foam which is what they use to make the ZAGI wings an similar planes. Carve your block out of that.

Carve out a hole or holes in the back of it and epoxy in a block or blocks of wood. Now screw through from the plane into the blocks.

You now have a bumper nose that you can removed and replace any time. Cover it with low temp film, packing tape, paint it with an acrylic paint or leave it naked if you like the look.

Make sure you rebalance the plane.

[Mchone, Jake]

I was planning on making it soldi epoxy, but not now i guess :p
I think i have some EPP but im not comftorble with a foam nose block. I'll see what I can come up with :)

[aeajr]

Build whatever kind of nose on the plane that you like, just make it aerodynamic so it helps the plane push through the air. Use the photo of the Spirit for an example if that helps.

[Mchone, Jake]

I plan to do so. Im eather going ot make a nose cone shaped one or one like on your Spirit(as acutate to yours as possible). Your Spirit's nose and fuse looks exactly like mine and shoudl be easy to conform the fuse to the nose cone. I'll also look into a new Aspire G(the blue one) at Hobby Town when I go. THe had one a couple weeks back and should still have it. AS far as I know all but the Aspire EP RTF has been discontinued adn it woudl be very nice to just get the origional Aspire. I hope they have it. If so, i'll just pack up my old Aspire for a rainy day when I feel like rebuilding. The wing's TE was extencivly damaged when the #64 rudder bands cut into the wing. Its fixable, but its as hard a' work as the nose.
I'll gte back to ya'll after I get all this sorted out.
Thanks ,again, so much for your help!
It has helped me and I hope anyone in my situation browsing this thread will find the info as helpful as I did. :)
ttyl
-Jake

[aeajr]

Why get another Aspire. You already have one of those and you can fix it. Why not get a second type. Whether an ARF or a kit. Then you have two different planes you can fly in different situations. Perhaps even a larger plane. Maybe a Spirit 100, a Sig Riser or a Riser 100" as examples.

Just a thought.

[Mchone, Jake]

If I get another sailplane it will be a 3meter. 20in.(80" to 100") isn't going to do much for me but get in the way unless the wings are seperatable(like in the BOT). I realized thats alot more wing area, but not enough for a floater liek the Bird of Time.
Im only going to get another Aspire if there is nothing else HT has. I would love a BoT more than any other sailplane! Only execption would be a 2m BL hotliner, but thats out of he question for my budget :(
The Bot is $50 higher than the $100 Aspire G and I need all the money I can get right now, but I would rather build another neat, new, and damage free Aspire(Or other glider) rather than re-rebuild my currect Aspire that has many battle scars sence it was my first RC. And it needs to be recovered anyway, but I do not have a heat gun, nor an iron for such, so im stuck with the 2 1/2 year old wrinkled covering and paint(for the new bare wood).
I am a true perfectionest and can't stand dirty, disorganized, or "broke" things! A new Aspire would make me VERY happy, but thats only if I dont find a better sailplane in the 3m range.
I'll let you in on my decition as soon as I make it to Hobby Town.
-Jake

[WimH]

Hey! I have an Idea! Does anyone have a Vid of someone catching a thermal and riding it for any period of time?
That would help TRAMENUSLY! :D:D:D

After wading through this monster thread, not finding the video you asked for, I decided to show you one. I do love thermalling. I'm still not very good, but getting better all the time. The secret is practice I guess....

http://leinauer.de/aero/movies/hanz03.mpg

Handlaunch start with a very simple and rather heavy model.

[Mchone, Jake]

Thanks alot for that vid!! Nice glider. 1.5m?
Thats the kind of lift I always get..nothing strong enough to take me up--just sustain altitude, but thats still flying, so-good enough. Mine arent NEAR as big. I have to keep my Slow Stick in a pritty tight circle(for a SS!) to stay i nthe core. Most thermals aroudn here come off roof tops and such. Not many out of the field taht I fly in. I got one out of that field ( :( ) But im still trying :rolleyes:

[Mchone, Jake]

Bad news for the SS DLG ya'll...I tryed the fat bottom wing idea that aeajr suggested I try and no luck with that at all...didnt fly much faster and didnt get ANY more altitude from a launch. She was very unreponsive and with that think wing, flew too slowly. I took teh covering back off the bottom and tryed towing it with my lil' sister running the line, but she just wouldnt stop running!!! I tryed to pull up and turn to get off and she tuged as hard as she coudl for some reason and the ol' wings folded. No controle and the fuse snapped in 1/2 upon "landing". Few salvagable parts :(
So, that DLG is gone, but i want to look into a nice one, any suggestions?(remember, ive got a bugdet-no more than $150 max)
Thanks so much!
-Jake

[aeajr]

A moment of silence for a great plane!

[Seared Ice]

I'm working on a HLG called the Apogee. You have to build it from plans (there may be a kit out there...but I don't know where). Me and a fellow club member are building a pair (one for me/one for him) and we're altering the design so it will DLG not just HLG.

Did you recover the radio gear of the SS?
If so, they would make great parts for a lightweight HLG/DLG/SALG...well, that's if you're using a small rx/servos. Standard servos won't do well in a small HLG.

~John

p.s. this is my 300th post :)

[Mchone, Jake]

I was useing sub-micro servos(yes, I got my stuff back) and a delta mixer for the V-tail and a 4s AA 1500 mAh pack(from my aspire) and a standard Rx(also from my Aspire) I needed to use the stuff from the Aspire because the fuse was very short and it needed the wieght to be ballanced. But thats fine 'cause it cut threw the wind(when it wasnt flaoting on it :p ) pritty well!
IM looking @ the gliders from Hobby-Lobby, but my LHS won't order from them becasue of som ebad costomer servis treament they gave them, but aslong as another web site/Co. carrys them they will order it for me.
Does anyone know of any FFF HLG plans?

[Seared Ice]

Some plans for HLG/DLGs. All free. I'm building the Apogee from plans from this site.
~John

[Mchone, Jake]

Where can I find them?
Ive gotton pritty good @ sanding and cutting FFF and have a big 1/2" sheet that I could make some wings and maybe tail and/or fuse from it. From what Ive seen HLG and DHLG's wings are kinda thin and the 1/2" foam shoudl do well.

I got a very good peice of hard foam(not EPP, but its pritty dence) from work today taht I coudl make 2 nose blocks out of! I'll try to get to that this weekend.

[Seared Ice]

Oops sorry lol! http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles.htm

[Mchone, Jake]

Thanks
I like the Terminator. looks easy and has a V tail! :D
now if i can only find the materials :rolleyes:

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, I have desided on a HLG. Im not sure if I coudl convert it to DL, but I coudl try and if I wanted to I could use my up-start as a seperate means of "power".
I have decided on the Candy from Hobby-Lobby. Its a V-tailed 44" span floater LHG that seems to be very compact, yet thermals in the lightest of lift. I absolutly LOVE the overall look of it. And it has nice colors, too :D
Its a very simple beginner HLG kit that I think I can realy grow with and one day next sommer get full into HLGs! Im talkin' tha big aileron ships! :D :cool: CF'ers! Ive always liked HLG and can't wait to get started, tell me what you think of this glider, please.
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/candy.htm

And here is a link to just about all the DLGs i'd need to look @ :p
http://www.nonsilence.com/soaring/dlg/

[aeajr]

Sounds like fun. I was just looking at that one and another on Hobby-Lobby.

Waiting to hear how you like it.

[fprintf]

If you haven't already ordered it, might I recommend you do a little research before ordering the candy? Not too many of the guys in the handlaunch forum fly with those - most of the newbies are flying Seekers, Boomers and Gambler Plus'es. Heck, for $60 for a Gambler+ you can't go too wrong!

Personally I have seen too many people buy a plane that looks good, either in pictures or from the description, on paper over the internet only to be disappointed in its flying characteristics.

We have several handlaunch fliers locally. Their heaviest planes take significant skill at picking thermals and flying without any mistakes to get decent flights more than 30 seconds or so. The proper side arm launch or DL planes go much longer between re-launches, and yet can be equally unforgiving to poor flying techniques.

I really suggest you search the handlaunch forum for a few days or weeks before settling on a model. The best beginner models are typically only a few dollars more than the one you are looking at.

p.s. I keyed in on your phrase "lightest of lift", which is a marketing term, if anything. Heck, my 3M marauder floats on the lightest of lift yet I wouldn't call it a handlaunch either.

[Mchone, Jake]

fprintf, I did do a bit of reasurch on it and read the review on the site. Ive watched the vid several times and shes a nice plane. I like her and all I realy want is a plane thats better than my scratch SS-G. And one I can grow on :) This one isnt quite a beginner's plane, but I know enough about flying gliders and HLG to not have any truble with her and she'll still let me progress a lil' B4 I get into the Carbon Fiber, $250+ biggens'. lol
Im not realy into the big Up and High starts and all that hassle so I think an HLG(&/or DLG) is right up my ally! But I still need my new 2m+ glider so I can gain planty of experiance in theramling and detecting them b4 I can get any flights longer than about 30sec.(detecting them, especialy!) 30 fun filled seconds is good enough for me. :) I'll still have my other non-HLG(s) to float around for 1-2min if I get tired of the short flights. :cool:
I'll look into it more! Don't worry about that! Any investment over $60 or more I look into for a good lingth of time :) But now that I finaly got a VERY good paying job(Mon-Fri, about 9am to 4pm @ $200 a week! :D ) I don't have to manage my money as much as I used to. :)

I did not use the trim "lightest of lift" from any review of the Candy(or any other). She is so small and light that I could thermal her in lift lighter than I could my powered SS! Might not be able to get too much altitude, but @ this point of me haveing only 2-3 thermal accurances and catches under my belt, I'll settle for what I can get! No altitude gained, but no altitude lost, eather! A good 1min + flight per ever couple to a few days(after I get realy good, of-cours) will tide me over for a long time and keep mehappy. I dont expect 2meter(or even 1.5m) handling and floating ability form this lil' thing, but it would be a great little glider for a mini up-start and to bring on family trips and to Band rehersals so I can keep on flying all the time! :D:D:D
One more question, though!
It needs a 110mAh Ni-cad battery, I have a GWS 110mAh Ni-Cd 6 cell flat pack(like what is used in the indoor foamies from GWS-like the Picos--TM, J3(S & F) and the Pico(S & F) ) and weighs about 2oz.
Could I use this pack?

[Seared Ice]

It says it needs a 110mah Ni-cad. NIMH would be much better...because they're lighter. Also, 6 cells is too much unless you will be plugging the battery into an ESC with BEC function and then into the receiver (even without a motor...because the BEC lowers the voltage from 7.2 to something the rx can handle). Without a BEC ESC, you can use a 5-cell pack but some people think that will reduce the life of your servos...4-cell packs are best for directly connecting to the receiver. Also, check to see what the minimum voltage is for your receiver...you may be able to use a single 3.7v lipoly cell...then you're really saving weight!
~John

[Mchone, Jake]

Well, sence this HLG is so light and the fuse is made of CF and fiberglass and sence I will be useing sub-micro servoes, the plane is going to be very light! So weight savings isn't the #1 priority on my list. Im thinking I would need the extra weight to balance it properly! The battery is supposed tobe about 2oz., but doesn't feel like 1!
I could use an old C-5 ESC for it. :) Thanks ALOT for that tip b4 I burned out my Servoes or Rx! :D
I do have a 4s pack, but its a Futaba AA Square NiCd Receiver Battery Pack.
Length:2.00" Width:1.12" Height:1.12" Weight:3.3 ounce Ampere:600mAh Volts: 4.8. but I think that one is too big and heavy for the Candy.
I do not know what the minimum(or Max) V for my Rx. The directions do not say :confused: I have a GreatPlanes Elecrifly 4ch. FM mini Rx.
Here is what GPs has to say about it:
Modulation Type: FM
Typical Applications: Electric Indoor Slow/Park Flyers
Receiving Range: 900 feet (max.)
Dimensions: 0.75” x 0.375” x 1.5” (19 x 11 x 37mm)
Weight: 0.35 oz. (10g)*
Input power: 3.0-10.V DC
That is the Rx Im going to use in the Candy(or any other HL/DL G)
I'd rather not buy a new battery just or this plane sence I rarely use the GWS 6s 110 pack.

[Seared Ice]

"Input power: 3.0-10.V DC" So you could use a lithium cell if you wanted. Also, it seems that your GWS pack will work...the rx can take 7.2v but I wonder how much voltage it then sends to the servos... Does anyone else know? Servos' max is usually 6v (5-cell pack) but I don't know if maybe your rx has a sort of BEC built-in.
~John

[fprintf]

Jake,

One thing about handlaunch is that you cannot really cobble one together out of old parts as they are generally designed around a specific set of micro sized radio gear. And what you say about needing weight to balance is absolutely false if the plane has been designed around micro gear - most handlaunch gliders need very little noseweight, if any. Every extra 1/10 of an ounce (or gram) is counted in handlaunch because it can mean the difference between a satisfactory flying plane and a real dog.

Anyway, it sounds like you are going to do what you want regardless. Have fun!

[Mchone, Jake]

I do not have Lipoes. Only Ni-MH and Cd's. Besides, the plane couldn't use the lithium' becasue after takeing your advise on doing resurce on the Candy I ran upon a tread in the Handlaunch Forum witch said: "A trial balance revealed that the plane was seriously tail heavy even with the servos (FMA PS20) mounted at mid-canopy and receiver (Berg4) and battery (4X200 mAH NiMh) all the way forward. My first trial toss in that configuration confirmed the problem, and I added a rock as nose weight! It launches very straight and true with no trim required at all. All I have to do is nose it over at the top of the climb and off she goes. I flew for a while and caught some very minor "slope lift" in the area I was flying but nothing to speak of. It flew great although it will slow down and become hard to control if you are not careful. But if you resist the temtation to slow it down and float, it flies fine and is very graceful in the air." -pgoelz

It seems that a Heavy battery woudl definatly be to my(and teh plane's) advantage :)
It also seems that the big AA 4c pack woud lbe best for it if only it would fit in the pod! :confused:
Im not sure if the Rx has BEC or not. I don't think it does...
My sevoes are the Hobbico CS-15(i thin kthe package said 20, though ??? ) Sub-Micro U. About 0.50oz. witch will only add 1oz. of nose weight(plus my mini delta mixer witch is an estimated 0.25oz.) and the 0.35oz. of the Rx witch is only 1.60oz. + battery weight of about 2oz. = to only 3.60oz. of total nose weight! I dought this is enough, but if I use the Futaba Batt. I could bump that upto about 5oz.! Thats realy heavy becasue when I read the 2 guy's threads on teh Candy in the Handlunched Forum they both had AUW of 6oz(!) as opposed to the 9oz. from Hobby-Lobby's specs. I dought my Candy will weight 1oz(or even 4, lol) so I guess i've ruled out the big 4c pack. :o
She seems to not be the floater I once thought, but I guess thats expected now that I think about it becasue of the tail configuration and the slight lagg in controle response even @ norm. air speeds! But thats the price you have to pay for a V-tail :p

[Mchone, Jake]

Jake,
Anyway, it sounds like you are going to do what you want regardless. Have fun!

No, I am simply trying my best to use the materials and equipment that I have so I dont' have to spend my insurance $$ on Items just for this one plane when I could have used something I already had on hand.
I am not shut out from answers, comments, and suggestions.

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, Thursday I get to goto Hobby-Town. I'll let ya'll know what ive decided on friday.

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, just got back and no luck on a BoT anytime soon :( On back-order or something like that for a few weeks! :eek:
SO i oppted to go with a new Aspire-G(blue :D ), I know ya'll told me not to, but I am planing on making a new wing section of about 1 meter in lingth so I can make her a 3m Aspire!! :D :cool: Won't that be prity sweet!? :)
But I'll still have the new wing for the 2m version.(im going to add that new section to my old wing).
I'll let ya'll know how she flies as compaired with the old Aspire as soon as I get to fly.

[Seared Ice]

If you need any help building the wing section, see if I can help.
I would be interested in knowing what your ideas are for how to go about constructing it. Make sure to keep the airfoil the same as the old wing...if you can figure out the name of the airfoil I can get you something you can print out as a template for new ribs.
If the new section is going to be the center, make sure to make it extra strong.
~John

[aeajr]

I am not sure but I believe you will want to lengthen the fuse to some degree, but you can always do that after you try the new wing.

Sounds like a good plan!

[Mchone, Jake]

Thanks guys! I though about lenghtening the fuse, but she stock Aspire is so docile and easy to fly, I dought I sould need to, becasue it will just mak eher a little more responsive and more sencitize, not much to worry about. :)
Yes, it will be a centure section. I will open the other 2 old wing 1/2s and add a flat centure section to the middle. The hard part will be making 2 good, identical wing/dihedral braces, but im sure I can do it if I take my time. It will be very wease to get them both the same size becasue of my new rotory tool :D
The centure section will be identical to the stock wing(ribs with the standard light ply over the top and bottom LE) and i'll make double or triple ribs(2 or 3 ribs CA'ed together) for the very middle of the section so the rubber bands won't crush anything. It souldnt be any harder building it than drawing up the plans(witch I have some experiance in from my old FF days). I won't start on it for a while, but I will start on it soon enough. I have alot of stuff to do for the next 2 months and the new wing will be on the back burner, but I'll draw up the plans this week end, most likely.
The airfoil is a SD 7037.

P.S.,John..LOVE the Avatar! :D:D:D

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, shes done and sooo pritty! I can't get enough of the blue! Its almost metalic looking! Love it! Not bad for 90bucks! :D
'Took me about 2 hours and I added a tooth pick to the canopy and drilled a hole in the nose block to slip it into and hold the nose of the canopy down so I dont have to use an ugly rubber band. :)
I test glided her this morning in the yard and she glides so good I had to push her over into the grass to keep from going out of my yard! Cant wait for the maiden! :cool:
It was a VERY easy "build"! Almost as easy as a Slow Stick build! :eek:
The only problem was the canopy attachment. The directions say to places the rubber band hook vertical, but then its very difficult to attach the rubb. band and take the canopy off, so I placed it horizontal and it works just fine that way :)
The tow hook is located where I had origionaly planed to place mine on the old one! The screw holes were pre drilled so i couldnt screw it up. The hook will slide al the way back to the rear CG!! Im not about to try that! :eek:
I also had to add quite a bit of nose wieght! Probaly becasue I had to position my Rx just infrount of the Servoes and he batter(not being a flat pack) had to sit about 1-2" infrount of that. I added a few clipped off pieces of pinewood durby car weights and add some clay just a little bigger than a quarter's sized when rolled into a ball. I estimate it to be about 3oz., though, im not sure(im not good on wieght :p )
Ive not yet added ply walls to hold ballast in the form of fishing weights, but I will hopfuly get to pick up some soon.
Well, i cant think of anyother highlights, but if ya'll have any questions, just ask! Im going to go look her over and make sure everything is to spec.(as per the directions) and clean the dew from the test glides off.
-Jake

[Seared Ice]

Sounds good :)
When is the maiden planned for?
Go get some thermals!
~John

[Mchone, Jake]

I'll try to get my Mom or Dad to ride with me(permit, no license yet) upto the College fields and try some launches this evening. But I might not get to until this weekend :( But I'll try it here before then, though. I'll let yah know when I get to!

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, gave in on myself and walked out to the field to give her a few good tosses adn I am at a true loss for words! Ive never seen anything glide so well! It flies about the same speed as my SS, yet from a hand launch hight of 6ft and a climb to about 8 she glided atleast(!) 40yards! :eek: My old Aspire couldnt manage 30! And She accualy floated up a foot and settled @ that altitude from a push from a 1-2mph breeze!! She'll be a VERY good floater, even without the 3meter mod! Although, very supseptable to gusty conditions, but im sure with ballast I can handle 15mph winds with ease! :D
It seemed to not want to loose altitude from even the slow glide I had her doing! From a normal cruies speed im coudl probably manage a 50yard flight from a launch hight of 7ft!
Thermals will be very easely detected and rode with this plane!
Im amazed at the im provement as compared with my old Aspire! Must be the airodynamics and im sure weight has a very strong roll in it :p
Im amazed @ the quality, as well! The only thing ive found "wrong" with teh kit is the factory did not sand the top of the non-lazer cut ribs, so the covreing had even less area to adhear to, but thats ok, by me. :cool:
Im just stuned at the new Aspire and have never been happyer with an R/C plane! Im very glad I took my advise and invested in this discontinued kit :D
I might not even go for the Candy, now sence I could get almost as much altitude and as much flight time as the smaller glider!! But the Candy's looks still draw me in very close.. :)
Im going to ask for a ride down to the college field after supper tonight before dark. Wish me luck! I sure wouldnt want anything to happen to this true blue beauty on teh first outing! :o
Thanks!
-Jake

[Mchone, Jake]

GREAT NEWS FROM THE NEWEST THERMALER ON LIFTZONE!

I have just got back from the local college field(s) from a 2 hours flying setion! I was able to catch 3(no joke!) 3 boomers!! One literaly jurked the Aspire up about 30sec. after launch and I followed it for about 2min gaining about 300ft(atleast) before I got nervous and pulled out of it! That flight was about the 5th flight of the day and it lasted about 5min! My longest until about 2 flights later when I found to floating side by side!! TWO boomers(or atleast VERY stong thermals) and circled in and out of both before I hit sink and fell out of one and headed back! That flight was right at 6min! Both thermal flights I hit the lift and the nose pitched upto about 10-15* and started to climb. I was so stuned I was speachless! Just sat down and watched as my newest pride and joy acended into the heavens! I hit 2 other very weak thermals before I left, and sustained altitude with them!
The new Aspire flies like a 3m, its so light and can detect lift so well! although I did have trouble staying in the core of them. Does anyone have any sugestions on that?
Im sure Its just experiance, but it would definatly help next time!
I guess I was right about my field(s) near my house, they just dont make thermals! Ive only rode one and that was barly enough to keep my SS aloft under no-power! But i now have upwards of 6min flights, 4 thermals and about 40 launches under my belt! :cool:
Thank you all for the help! Cause it did help :D
I have also met another local electric R/Cer while there and becaseu pritty good friends after thoughs 2 hours there! I now have 2 friends of local residents to fly with(one a 10year gasser pilot and one a newbie who is teaching himself).
Today is the best day, by far, in a VERY long time! I can not WAIT to get back down to that field and hook some more! :D
I'll keep you all posted on my further developments!
Thanks again,
Jake

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

The core of a boomer thermal can be quite turbulent. I figure that if the sailplane is going up but doesn't look pertty, at least it's going up!

I've had to bank at 70 degrees many times to stay in boomer thermals.

[Mchone, Jake]

Yes, these were pritty tight but i managed to stay in good enough, but there is always room for improvement! :)

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, I went out monday to my field to try some more thermaling, but no luck. Only one good thermal passed over the field, but I was not high enough to catch it, so I watched the buzzards core in it to see how they did it. I was out from about 9-11 and 12:30 to 2ish and didnt get anything but "bubble lift". Just riseing terbulance that is most commonly called convection currents. Nothing worth my time out there. The wind was 0-5mph and warm, very good thermal conditions, so ive come to the conclusion that my field is just not good for themals! :o
But I did have some fun, and thats what its all about :)
I also learned that when I move the tow-hook back to 3.5" back from the LE(the forward CG -im balanced @ the rear CG of 3 3/4" back) from about 3" back from the LE I do NOT get higher launches! :eek:
My plane just stalls easyer at the top of the launch as my old Aspire did, even when I level off near the top. It just doesn't have enough airspeed in no-wind conditions to start flying off the top, it just stalls and falls about 10-20ft before I am able to make a safe and smooth pull-out back to level flight.
Is there a reason for this?
She does great from the tow-hook @ the most farward position of about 3" back from the LE. But the launch hight from only an up-start instead of a high-start is less than desiured, and less than ive seen with others using an up-start to launch a 2m! :confused:

But on the good side! SUPRIZE, SUPRIZE!! After 3 years, the farmer finaly mowed(bush-hogged) the field yesterday evening!! Im hopeing he'll come back and make heay bails after the grass drys out, and maybe plow the field! Maybe then my luck with thermals out of these fields will change! :D

[aeajr]

If you don't have enough speed at the top to fly off the hi-start then the hi-start is not strong enough OR, there is a chance that it is more than strong enough but you don't have enough string on it.

I use an up-start for practice. It has 7/16 rubber which is VERY strong. The measured pull, using a fish scale, is 12-13 pounds against a 2 pound plane. The plane, a two meter Sagitta, hits the top so fast that it literally gets stopped at the top of the launch and often stalls coming off the line. Sounds like what you might be seeing.

I have the hook 1/4 inch in front of the CG.

I added another 50 feet of line and get smoother, higher launches off my up-start now, yet it is still short enough to be good for practice.

I am not going to go back through the thread to find the specs on your up-start/hi-start, but you may be in the same situation. Add some line. Worth a try.

I use snap swivels to add and remove line from my up-start and my hi-start mostly to take advantage of wind conditions. I carry premade 25 and 50 foot lengths with snaps on both ends. Unsnap the chute, add the line, snap the chute back on. I use 50 pound rated fishing snaps. They work great!

On 25' of 7/16 rubber I now have 150 feet of line. A 6-1 ratio of rubber to line is pretty high, but the rubber is pretty strong. I have launched 3M planes off of it with 100' of line. Have not tried a 3M plane on the 150' length.

Worth a try.

[Mchone, Jake]

Mine does take off realy fast and slows down @ the top.
Ive tryed more line and i got worse results. There was too much bow in the line, witch resulted in less pull on the plane and it went even slower. I think I have about 200-250ft of line. im not sure. If you need to know I can try and measure it.
Im using a Dynaflite Standard Up-Start with 25ft of 3/16" Rubber.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXE638&P=7

Im suppoed to get 200ft launches with it, but im getting about 150 in no-wind conditions from 50paces of strech(42paces is standard strech)!
Im not useing the stock 200ft nylon line(it got knoted up on me).
The Up-Start is for planes upto 100in. WS or less., so I seriouly dought its not strong enough, but sence he Aspire is an 80" ws plane, I dought its too strong. :o :confused:

[ejett]

Mine does take off realy fast and slows down @ the top.
Ive tryed more line and i got worse results. ...

Based on my personal experience and your posts, I think you need more (longer) rubber. With 200' of line and 50' of rubber you should get a lot better launches. I believe what is happening is that you are running out of energy in the rubber before the plane gets high enough.

Another thing is that you may need to move the tow hook back a little, it is unusual that the front hole gives the best performance.

EJ

[Mchone, Jake]

I do think my rubber is a little on the woreout side. I'll be ordering a nw "Hi"-Start(not up-start) when I can get to the LHS.
Are you sure 50' of tubing won't be too much!
Ive tryed the tow hook back further, but it stalled even worse, and then I woudl fall to or below the normal, forward tow-hook launch hight, so it did no good. But i'll try it again after I recieve my new Hi-Start.

And BTW: What sailer' is in your avatar? it looks REALY nice! 3m?

[ejett]

Jake:

The amount of rubber you use and the amount of line you use depends on how much space you have to lay it out and stretch it. Longer rubber lets you store more energy in the rubber and you can get more altitude with it, because you can use more line.

If you are limited to 25' of rubber, then 200' of line is probably on the long side; the plane has to make a long arc to lift that much line with the energy from 25' of rubber. You may find that you get better energy retention (in the plane) at the top of the launch if you cut back on your line length a little - say to 150'. Keep in mind that the plane has to lift the rubber as well.

Most high starts come with 100' of rubber and 350 - 400' of line. I have my high start (sized by Aerofoam for a 3m plane) et up so that I can use half of the high start (which I usually do because of the small field I fly at) or the whole thing. It is set up so that the rubber is cut into two 50' sections and the line is cut into two 200 ft. sections. When I need to use all of the high start I just attach the two pieces of rubber together and both pieces of line. I keep it all wound up together on an orange cord reel.

If you need to see some pictures of the setup, I can snap some for you.

I do launch my 2 meter and standard class (100") ships with this same rubber. It is pretty strong for the 2 meter ship (GP Spirit), but the plane handles it with no problem.

EJ

[jrgospod]

Another suggestion to get better launch height is to use 30# fish line (monofilament). It has a lot less drag and wind resistance. I noticed that the line did not bow much at all with the Mono and I gained 20-30 feet launch height.

John

[aeajr]

OK, that is a good match for your plane. 3/16 ID, 5/16 OD. I would expect there to be 75-150 feet of light line, masons line or 40 pound monofilimnet on that. In a breeze it might be able to handle the 150+ but in calm air it will be too much line, I would think.

I am pulling against rubber that is probably 50% stronger than yours and I am just added enough to get to 150, so you may have too much line.

Also, in no wind, most hi-starts will give lesser launches. With 5mph or more you can get better launchs and in 10 MPH you can get some great kite type launches. That is when you add more line.

Try taking it down to 100 to 150 feet and see if you get a better launch. The weight from the snap swivals or knots will not impact your launch.

Add the rest back when you have a breeze. Stalling at the top will cost you more height than 50 feet of line and a weak launch will gain. Better to come off the top with some speed. You might even be able to get some zoom effect and make that 200+ launch you are looking for.

Just some ideas. Takes a little work to get the proper balance.

[Mchone, Jake]

Thank you EJ, i'll measure the linght and let you know when I go out to the field here after while.

John, thats alot! I'll look into that. My line is pritty heavy, but theres not much bow that I can tell from standing behind it in no-wind conditions. But i'll still look into the fishing line. 30# :confused: do you mean 30lb. test?

aeajr, Thank you! I never knew this: Stalling at the top will cost you more height than 50 feet of line and a weak launch will gain.
I'll measure the line, cut it down to 150ft or probly 125' and check out that fishing line and look for the snap swivals. :)
Thank you, guys for the help! I will be able to test all your theories tomarrow becaseu the winds will pick up from 2mph @ 8am to about 8 @ 3pm or so! Can't wait to test this. Im looking into the Hanger9 SLS Hi-Start. It is highly recomended by H9 for teh Aspire.

[aeajr]

Also, if you are ordering a new hi-start, you can go up in rubber. Rather than 5/16 go to 3/8 which is what most of the 3M hi-starts use. It will give you stronger launches. mine is 1/2 inch on my hi-start. The plane can take it!

[ejett]

The plane in my avatar is a Spirit 100 with the 'advanced' wing (ailerons and flaps). Here is a larger pic.

[Mchone, Jake]

WOW!! Thats only 100"! I thought it to be bigger :p
Very nice!
On my new 3m Aspire wing(witch im getting ready to start drawing up plans for) im going to add spoilers or flaps.
Witch do you recomend?
Flaps could get damaged in my field, but maybe not as easly now that they've finaly cut the grass and weeds down. Im leaning more twards spoilers.
I don't have a comp. radio, only a Futaba 4ch, so I can not go with both, and/or ailerons integrated with them. But I'd rather just stick with just ele./rudd. anyways.

[ejett]

I would have to say that I think spoilers are the way to go for you based on what I can determine from your posts here. The grass and weeds will be back sooner than you can imagine.

You might give some consideration to going with about 100" on your wing. This is due to the fact that the tail volume and moments on the 2m Aspire are going to be a long stretch for a 3 meter planform. I know of some successful designs that use 2m and 100" or 100" and 3m wingsets, but I am not familiar with any successful designs that swap between 2m and 3m wings for this reason. Even the 100" Spirit is a redesign of the 2m Spirit including longer tail moment and larger tail surfaces. I would not like to see you spend a lot of time and money on a new wing for the 2m fuse and be disappointed when the handling is not up to your expectations. Will it fly? Yes. Will it fly well? I am very concerned that it will not be satisfactory to you.

EJ

[aeajr]

EJ gives you excellent advice on the wing for the Aspire.

Whether you do flaps or spoilers you will most likely need to compensate with elevator to keep the plane level. Flaps will tend to balloon the plane up and spoilers will tend to nose it down.

As you noted, flaps are more likely to be damaged than spoilers. Spoilers are not too hard to add to an existing wing, especially if you are willing ot remove some covering. There are a number of threads out there showing how to add spoilers to an existing R/E plane. The Gentle Lady seems to be the most common one. The Spirits and the SIG Risers have spoilers already.

Having elevator mixed in automatically by computer radio is wonderful, but you can do it manually. Put the spoilers or flaps on the throttle stick and work in the elevator yourself. I will tell you that it is very tricky to keep it consistent but it can be done. Spoilers are great to help you get out of a strong thermal.

My recommendtion, if you are going to retrofit your current wing, is to do spoilers. If you are going to design it into your new wing, then either will work.

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, first off, I will take your advise on doing a 100". It will be a 20" extention to my 80" wing. I will add the spoilers onto that as seen in pic. I can handle the constant elevator preasure. Its easy for me. idk about you guys, but I find it very easy. :)
The only question I would have about the spoilers is how big should they be? How much area, is what i am asking.
I also plan to get two mini seroves(high torque), and do a mod. to the servoe arm and mount the spoilers strait to the modifyed arm. Ive seen this done and the guy said it worked well. And yes, I will use a Y-harnes and conect it to the throttle chanel. This should be easyer than making the wing extention. They will not be on the trailing edge. They will be just infrount(about 1") of the tip of the TE.

Ok, second of all, I measured my Up-Start line lingth and amazingly it was 275ft! :eek:
So I cut 100 foot off witch gave me 175ft of string. And tested it. IT DID GREAT!! :D:D
Just as fast of climbs, and it continues to pull all the way to the top! Then the plane just gently slides off the line nice and level. No sign of stall at all! And I still have the extra 100ft for the windy days(8-15mph winds). But these results were with the tow-hook @ 3.5" back form the LE. I moved the hook back to just past 3 3/4"(maybe 4") back and The stall factor was just as much as the old Aspire!! :eek:
I leveled off just as much, if not more, at the top of teh launch as I did with the 3.5" setting, but she still stalled. So im content with the 150' launches @ the forward hook position. I know its probly not the best, but its good for me :)
I will get to try this in 3-8mph winds tomarrow and experiment further with line lingth and hook position and find a good balance for the windyer days.

[aeajr]

Here are some resources and discussions on spoilers

Photo Series
http://66.55.23.12/gallery/spoilers1/index.html

Spoilers - How, Where and Why
http://www.skybench.com/report/spoilers.html

Spoilers on the Spirit
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87511&page=2&pp=15

Spoilers on a Gentle Lady
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1599599/anchors_1599599/mpage_1/key_gentle+lady+spoilers/anchor/tm.htm#1599599

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

Tow hook location confussion.

There are several factors that dictate where the tow hook is to be set. The lift vector of the wing (aerodynamic center) is one while the incidence (angle) between the wing and the elevator is another.

When the tow hook is to far forward only holding a noticeable amount of up elevator will keep the plane from being pulled horizontally.

When the tow hook is to far back you have to hold in a down elevator or it loops over your head and comes off the line. Quite exciting to those around you.

Having the tow hood to far forward becomes obvious but that rear position just may be the correct one as far as the aerodynamics of the wing is concerned. Then why does it do a loop? It's because you have too much nose weight and to compensate you have dialed in a lot of up elevator trim.

I've seen full flying stabs torn off because the flyer had to pull a lot of up to compensate for the forward location of the tow hook. No the full house sailplane didn't crash because a quick thinker grabbed the transmiter pulled in some flaps to flip the plane upside down them used the flaps as elevators like on a flying wing to bring the plane around and land it with minimal damage -- upside down.

Even with a very agressive rearward balance point (this is the kind I like) you can't move the tow hook back to match as this will place it too far behind the aerodynamic center of the wing. So I find myself using the programming in the transmitter to give a little down to match the 5 degrees of trailing edge camber and over come the tow hook location.

So the idea is to get the planes balance and thus the incidence, aerodynamic center and the tow hook location to match.

[Mchone, Jake]

When the tow hook is to far back you have to hold in a down elevator or it loops over your head and comes off the line. Quite exciting to those around you.
That is what she trys to do if I do not hold some down ele. Idk if it woudl loop, but im not willing to find out, eather.

Then why does it do a loop? It's because you have too much nose weight and to compensate you have dialed in a lot of up elevator trim.

This is not my reason, however. I have just enough nose weight to have the Aspire ballanced perfectly @ 3 3/4" back from the LE. This is the rearward CG in the manual. It might even be just a "finger roll"(when you ballance with your fingertips.-when the nose wants to drop Just enough to where you have to "roll" your finger to get it to perfectly ballance) forward of 3 3/4". But its not where near the 3.5" mark! The metric system would do good here, lol.
No uptrim or preasure is needed. "A lot" of down preasure is needed for the rear hook position and it still stalls quite a bit @ the top, and just a blip or 3 of down ele. is needed near the top when @ the forward hook position.

The most forward tow-hook position is about 1/4" in front of teh forward CG point(3.5") and the most rearward position is alittle more than 1/4" Behind the rear CG(# 3/4"). I think the rearward tow-hook position on the Aspire is a bit too much! I keep it(for now atleast) at the farward CG point with full launches(full line linght high--175ft) and its still VERY stable and with NO stalling(as long as I level out near the top of the arch) at all. I like thsi position, and, personaly, I dought it coudl get better, but im not shutting myself out from suggestions :) If you feel that I can still get better launches, feel free to give me more advise! I'll sure try it. "If you don't experiment, you'll never learn."

And, aeajr, Thanks ALOT for teh links! I realy like the first sight(Installing/Retrofitting Spoilers). I think i'll go with that idea of only one servoe :D And if your spoilers on your Spirit work fine, i'll match mine up like them in size, but alittle further inbord on the wing.

Thanx again!!
-Jake

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

As the Aspire has a fixed horz stab and an elevator the incidence is set in the positions the wing and stab are mounted to the fuse. Thus you may not be able to move the balance point back as far as the aerodynamic platform will let you. Still the aerodynamics dictate how far the tow hook can be moved back. Between the two you have to find the sweat spot.

I use the designers/builders/flyers settings as a guide then push them to my liking. In many cases a half ounce of nose weight can make or break a balance.

I tend to design and built with full flying stabs as I don't like having the incidence restrained. Still the airfoil on the stab can be somewhat critical.

[Mchone, Jake]

I think I have found my "sweat spot". :) Th ehook needs to be @ the forward CG of 3.5" when the CG is set to 3 3/4" back from the LE. That gives me the 1/4" distance infount of the CG of the hook that aeajr was talking about for his Spirit. I think this is the best spot for my Aspire, even in higher winds(witch I had to deal with today :( ).
Thanx anyway! :D
And thank you, aeajr, for your suggestion :cool:

[silentfly]

hey guys,
I live in a country called New Zealand where the range of RC products aint that great. However i would like to start thermal gliding!!!
I do have flying experience as i have been flying a slope soarer (epp) for about six months and i can manage it quite well. I live in a part of the country where it is quite hilly and i could only find an acre of flat ground where i think is suitable for thermal flying.
I would appreciated if some one could help me choose a suitable glider.
At the moment my options are quite restricted, ive been fishing around web sites of LHS and only to manged to find the following planes.

Bird of Time (probaly too big)
Daydream from dynaflite
butterfly from dynaflite
Piece o-cake also from dynaflite
The spirit series (from great models i think)
Im open to other sugestions as well!! :)
However i will try to hunt down some more planes that are on sale here. Because of the small size of the field (a little bigger than an acre) what type of histart or up-start i should use? I could make a "homemade" one if i was givin some instructions and list of materials that i might need.

Sorry for the long post, but any help would be greatly appreciated
Thanks guys....

[aeajr]

Silentfly,

Welcome to RC flying. Glad you are doing so well with slope soaring. I have the opposite problem, I have a great thermal flying field here on Long Island, New York, but there is very little in the way of suitable slope sites. Here is a pictue of our flying field:
Long Island Silent Flyers Field (http://www.lisf.org/Pictures/29070035.jpg)

There are lots of good starter planes.

You mentioned the Spirit Series. I started with the Great Planes Spirit 2M and recommend it highly. In the US it is available as a kit, ARF or a ready to fly packge called the Spirit Select.

The Gentle Lady has a wonderful reputation as a starter plane and is available as a kit or an ARF.

Since you have been flying an EPP plane, you might check out the Gentle Foamy from mountain Toys. www.mtntoys.com This is a kit, but because it is an EPP foam plane it is closer to an ARF in its construction, I believe.

These articles may be helpful.

Getting Started in Sailplanes (http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=36)

Learning to make and use a hi-start (http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=52)

Sailplanes are Wonderful (http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=18)

Also, chat with guys at the Cantebury Sailplanes (http://forum.canterburysailplanes.co.nz/phpBB/index.php?c=2) Forum in NZ. I post there from time to time. They can give you local insights.

[Seared Ice]

As long as you have enough space to strech out a highstart, you've got yourself a thermal field! Even if there isn't enough space for that, you can modify your plane for electric power or even a .049 glow engine. I have a Gentle Lady glider and its great! I have the added weight of the electric setup in mine but boy does it still thermal well!

I've got the same problem as aeajr...plenty of large fields (This side of the US was at one time, 1000s of farms...) but no slope soaring hills. I've got plenty of hills in PA (foothills of the Poconos) but as the name of Pennsylvania suggests (Pennsylvania means Penn's Woods), they're all covered in trees! And like aeajr, I also post every now and then in the Canterbury Sailplanes forum...they are very very nice people with tons of info to share with you!

~John

[Mchone, Jake]

Let me welsome you to my/our thread! :D
Im very glad you posted here, we'll help you everyway we know how!
So you have about 1 acher, that is too small for much of anything but a mini-up-start, witch you use with HLGs. Contrary to aeajr's suggestion for the spirit(witch is a GREAT plane!)im going to recomend a hand launched glider(HLG). You can get upto 100ft launches from a simple "Javilin thow" or you can use the mini up/high-start witch will give you the same, if not about 50ft more with minimal effort! An HLG or DLG woudl be a great choice for a small field! + there very fn and give you lots of exercise :p :D
From dynaflite I would tell you to go with teh Skeeter, but ONLY if your conftorble with wood/balsa kits!
If not, goto www.towerhobbies.com and search for GreatPlanes "Fling" HLG. Its a very good looking ARF witch also has a great price of 65 U.S. dollers! And the best part is that it comes with it's own mini up-start!! Just install you excisting radio gear(if its mini or micro servoe gear) and goto that field! You can use it as a HLG or with a slight mod it can become a decent DLG! This is a VERY nice plane and if you dont mind the violet color, prbably the best plane for you!
Let us know on your decition :)

What are the surroundings around the field and whats' the field look like?
Also, whats the weather like?

[aeajr]

Jake makes an excellent suggestion in a hand launched glider or a discus launched glider. On a small field, these could be great.

Even at our large field, more and more of the pilots are starting to explore discus launched gliders or hand launched using mini-hi-starts. They are very light and will rise on the lightest lift.

The one that was at the field last week was about 1.3 meters, a full house 6 servo DLG that was under 12 ounces. Amazing and beautiful.

I don't know if the conditions are very windy in your area. These planes my not be very good in strong winds. Others may be able to comment

On the other hand, if you have an acre, which is 200 feet by 200 feet, depending on the actual shape and size of the field, you can use a strong up-start to get good launches.

Typically a 2M sailplane would be launched with 3/16 to 5/16 inch surgical tubing which you would stretch 2-4 times its length. You get 6-10 pounds of pull on one of these.

My practice upstart is based on 25 feet of 7/16" rubber, which is very strong so I don't pull it as far. I get about 13 pounds of pull at 40 feet of stretch. It gives a very strong launch to my 2 meter planes. I have 150 feet of line so I can use it in about 200 to 225 feet of space and get 150 to 200 foot launches with my 2M Spirit or Sagitta. I have launched 3M planes on 100 feet of line with success as well. It is described in the article posted above on learning to use a hi-start.

The smaller rubber gives a softer launch but you need more space. My planes handle the strong launch with the heavier rubber with no problems.

If the lift is reasonable, that is high enough to catch thermals even with a 2 meter plane.

[silentfly]

Wow thanks for all the reply guys!
I sorry to mislead you that the field is 1 acre but its actually 1 and hectare and a bit. its also a squarish field with surrounding trees and some buildings and only one side leads to another padock. Once my mate came down from auckland and did some thermaling and he caught one straight after he launched! However he is now out of the country and cant contact him regularly.
anyways the wind here is not that strong in summer but could be quite gusty in winter. Im still researching for a plane here nut im not neccacarly going to go with the dynaflite range, as i will also look into HLG more as well.

Thanks for all the help and support
cheers

[Mchone, Jake]

Don't mention it! :D
Thats what Lift Zone is here for, Help! :cool:
Im not fermilior with the metric system in mearusers over meters, so could you clarify what a Hectare(hehe, "and a bit" :p ) is, please?
He might have got lucky, but if there is a few houses with dark roofs on them you can get some lift(small lift, but strong enough for the small HLGs) off the roofs and maybe the streets. If I had the field all to my self, If I were you I would cut the grass as short as posible on about 1/2 of the field(the average upwind side) so that the grass dies and creats a big brown spot that is much darker than the rest of the field would be. That woudl give your great lift on even humid days, as long as its sunny. :)
Sounds like you have a good weather situation! Nice thermaling in the summer(thermal's peck time) and slopeing in the winter. Nice situation as long as you dont mind a lil' cold air :rolleyes:
You can also look into http://www.arthobby.com/ !
They have very nice and easely built HLGs and DLGs that are VERY light on a wallet :D
They are also very nice and very trust worthy, but on a couple HLGs you woudl need to brace up the balsa ply tail feathers with a CA bath or some epoxy soaked CF strips on the leading edges for extra insurace. Ive herd nothing but great news from these models and I, myself, am getting the COLIBRI-V HLG or maybe the BOBOLINK 1M DLG! If these are available to you, I would jump on them, but only if the GreatPlanes "Fling" HLG isn't available to you. I would get the Fling, but I already have a up-start that I can use with it, so I dont need another specialy for it, so im going with the Art Hobby birds.
Continue searching around on Lift Zone, and posibly E-zone, and where ever else you need/ want to.
Also! Try Hoby-Lobby! They have good small type sailplanes and im pritty sure they can ship to you no prob. :D

Have fun with it!

-Jake

[silentfly]

hey again,
One hectare is 100m by 100m by which is about 2.5 acres the "a bit" is around 100feet plus 100 feet extra...if u know what im saying :o . so intotal prbaly around 2.8 acres (if my maths is correct). Unfortunately the roof of the shearing shed is orange.
However im moving to auck at the end of the year so i probaly could join a club and have a lot more space to fly around so im going to stick to the spirit 2m. Unless some other suitable plane comes into my attention, but i still dont have all the money i need yet and im still saving up.....just a few more weeks (hard beeing a teenager....sigh).
but untill then i guess i just have to find some extra work but no body wants a 14 year old breaking the dishess, hehe... :D
cheers
jason

[aeajr]

The Spirit is a great plane. You should enjoy it. If you have a three channel radio, the built in spoilers can really be helpful in landing the plane in smaller areas.

If you enjoy building kits, then the Spirit kit is a pretty easy build.

Prices will vary for you as compared to the US, but if you add up the cost of the kit, the covering and other things, the ARF costs about the same as building a kit. However if you end up breaking something then you will end up buying some covering. Also, having the plans and the punched out wood as templates for replacement parts can come in handy.

I started with the RTF version that comes all built with all the electronics installed.

Ask away, we are very happy to help!

[Seared Ice]

Yeah...us teenagers have $ trouble...I'm 16 and looking for a job. In order to get all my planes flying, I'll need to get 8 servos, 2 receivers, 1 rx batterypack, 1 lipo pack, one .40 glow engine, one electric motor, and much more! Will come out to around $250. If I get a job, that will be about one week's salary so...I really want a job!

About thermals: they don't have to come from the same field you're flying in! Most will come from surrounding areas. The good ones have had some time to form and drift to you from somewhere upwind. Next time I see some good thermal clouds, I'll take a picture. I'm thinking about waiting for a really good thermalling day and take a picture every 30 minutes or hour to show how the sky changes throughout the day.

~John

[Mchone, Jake]

hey again,
One hectare is 100m by 100m by which is about 2.5 acres the "a bit" is around 100feet plus 100 feet extra...if u know what im saying :o . so intotal prbaly around 2.8 acres (if my maths is correct). Unfortunately the roof of the shearing shed is orange.
However im moving to auck at the end of the year so i probaly could join a club and have a lot more space to fly around so im going to stick to the spirit 2m. Unless some other suitable plane comes into my attention, but i still dont have all the money i need yet and im still saving up.....just a few more weeks (hard beeing a teenager....sigh).
but untill then i guess i just have to find some extra work but no body wants a 14 year old breaking the dishess, hehe... :D
cheers
jason

Im a teen too, Jason :p 16, like John :) I know how it feels to be broke most of the time, lol. I have plinty of money, but thats for my car insurance! :mad: lol, Makes me mad that I have $300+ and cant use a bit of it when all I need is a 10x8 prop, lmao. But life goes on ;)
You will like the Spirit in a field of that size! Especialy with the spoilers! If you cant get many thermals out of your field or from surrounding areas(like me) you can get a big black tarp(as im looking into) about 150ft x150ft or to about 300x300ft. Then you will have one area in the field that you can get thermals off of ALL day as long as teh sun is out! You can practice circling in light lift and waiting for the thermal to build and practice cucling in the core sence you would have a much better adea of where it is! And countless things that coudl be practiced on sence you woudl know where the thermal is! Its a good deal if you ask me, but aeajr might say different. :rolleyes:
I have a job, but only when they need me, lol. But its $200 a weekfor a full weeks work, but they havent called in about 1 1/2 weeks. I might have to start looking for another, lmao, but its all koo :cool: :D
As for what aeajr has suggested with the timplate from the kit, I would strongly suggest that! But if I were you I would go with the RTF so I wouldn't have to switch out electronics and change trims on a Tx(as I do with my park flyers). It gets to be a hastle, even though you get good @ it, lol. But yeah, I woudl go with the RTF so you coudl have 2 planes(atleast) right there ready to fly as soon as you feel the need :D
Have fun, what ever you do!! Because in the words of a great man: " 'Cause its tha thang ta' do!"

[aeajr]

If you check this link on 7/2 you will find an article there on searching for lift, both slope and thermal.

Finding lift (http://www.rcezine.com)

As far as stretching your dollars.

Have you have ever looked at e-bay?

You can get some great deals, IF you know what you are looking for and what things cost at the store or on the internet. For example, I just purchased 3 brand new Hitec micro 555 receivers for $35 each from a hobby store in Canada. $8 for shipping and insurance for all three. One for myself and two for guys in the club. That reciever sells for $60 at Tower hobbies.

Servos that are $30 at the local hobby store and $20 at servo city I have been buying for $15 new.

I picked up, used, for $55 shipped, a 4 channel Futaba radio, 4 ball bearing servos and an 8 channel receiver. I would not have gone that high for a used reciever but I will use the rest of it. All I really wanted was the receiver, but I will use the radio as a buddy box on my Futaba 9C, and I can always use extra servos. He says all is in good shape. So, if the radio is warn but working well, if one servo has to be thrown out and the receiver checks out good, I think I will be all set and have a good deal.

With used stuff you ALWAYS take a chance, but after a year and dozens of purchases I have only had one problem, and the guy admitted he had listed it incorrectly by mistake. We came to a comfortable agreement.

You have to watch what is being sold and put in your bids. You have to know how to bid and when to raise, but you learn after a while. New stuff I try to get at least 20-25% off of regular sources. Used I want to save 50%

If I make 5 purchases and one has to be thrown away, I am way ahead. And many people will accept postal money orders, so you don't have to have a charge card.

Just some thoughts on how to stretch your $$. New is ALWAYS better, but that doesn't mean that used is bad. A lot is being sold by people who tried the hobby and did not like it. Some is part of estates. A flyer passes away. these guys buy the whle shop for a low price and sell the stuff off on e-bay.

There are a lot of regular hobby stores that sell on e-bay, like the one that sold me the receivers. I purchased new servos from them last year based on an e-bay bid.

[Mchone, Jake]

I didnt see anything from that link on tha page :confused: Only the 2 articles of Miniature engines, and How to used a Hi-Start to launch sailplanes. Nothing on lift at all, am I missing something :o ?

[aeajr]

Yes, you are missing that today is july 1 and it won't be there till July 2.

Also, there is a listing of more articles on the right. I write two of the regular columns and I wrote the article on using a hi-start.

[Mchone, Jake]

OH! ok, :p I shall wait :)
And I read most of your Hi-Start article, nice job, it helped me out more that you and the guys did on here! And BTW: im getting very good launches and not loosing any height compaired with my old ones and not stalling as long as I push over the top and dont let the plane hold it's own line/arch. But i've been down to the college field 2times sence the boomer experiance I had the first time and haven't caught anything. But the last time was cloudy and the 2nd time was a tad humid, so if I did find lift it was so undefined taht I couldn't stay in it, but i'll keep trying :D (ofcours :p )
Thanks!
-Jake

[Mchone, Jake]

I've found new Handlaunched glider(s) sence I cannot get a Candy! They are the ArtHobby Bobolink DLH and the Colibri-V HLG. Both are 1meter and both are easy builds from the looks of it. Both are good and easy flyers and only $2 apart in price, I think ive decided on the Bobolink, but im still very much open for suggestions.
Any thoughts?

Links:
http://www.arthobby.com/gliders/specs/bobolink.html
http://www.arthobby.com/gliders/specs/colibriV.html

[Mchone, Jake]

Ok, Ive decited to get the Bobolink DLG!

[aeajr]

Of the two I like the Bobolink better also. This plane is pretty small. Be careful when you catch those thermals that they don't just grab it away from you. I have seen with parkflyers.

Our sailplane club also admits parkflyers. Sometimes the parkies like to thermal with the big planes and get too high. Last season two didn't come down, An Aerobird and a Firebird outlaw. Fortunately both pilots took it pretty well.

[aeajr]

I got my Spirit back in the air today. Have not hooked up the spoilers yet, but what a joy. I forgot how much I enjoy flying this plane.

Wind was about 7 MPH when I started, but 2 hours later it was up ot 10 mph and gusting to 14. I had to add 3.5 oz of ballast in order to penetrate into the wind at all.

It is nice to have my old friend back. I should get he spoilers hooked up soon.

[Mchone, Jake]

Nice to hear you still injoy the little guys, lol. I bet thoughs Biggens' get your attention pritty good and for a long while, but yah always gatta come back to your roots. :cool:

Oh, i'll be careful! After all the truble ive gone threw with my parents ordering it I sure as hell won't loose it! If I get caught in a boomer(i won't thermal in them, but u never know when one can suck you up!) this plane is pritty darn fast! So I should be able to push her down into a vertical dive and pick up enough speed to fly through the wall.

BTW: while on the subject of loosing a plane, Im going to cover it(or paint, idk yet) in yellow(my g/fs favoite color) on top of the wing and blue(my favorite color) on the bottom and vise-versa on the horizontal stabe., Is this a good idea?

[SoCalGliderFlyr]

Yellow is not as good a color as you think. But it's marginally better than white.

[Mchone, Jake]

well, Amanduh is making me stick with yellow(lol, you know how that is :p ) so should I go lighter or darker yellow?
Keep in mind that I will not let this thing get over 500ft(if that high!). And it seems as though I have found a desent slope sight so i'll be flying it there too if the slope turns out to be as good as the local fliers say it is. No big, nor long rides on thermals with this thing, just some nice relaxing DLGing on lunch breaks and such :)

[aeajr]

well, Amanduh is making me stick with yellow(lol, you know how that is :p ) so should I go lighter or darker yellow?
Keep in mind that I will not let this thing get over 500ft(if that high!). And it seems as though I have found a desent slope sight so i'll be flying it there too if the slope turns out to be as good as the local fliers say it is. No big, nor long rides on thermals with this thing, just some nice relaxing DLGing on lunch breaks and such :)

1) you will get above 500 feet. I have had my aerobird well over 500 feet and it has a 42 inch wing and is a pod and boom plane.

2) Be careful on the slope, that incoming wind can really do bad stuff. Remember never turn into the slope, always away from it.

3) You should look forward to long rides in thermals.

Consider adding one of these. They weight nothing.
Battery Monitor/lost model alarm. (http://www.californiasailplanes.com/)

[Mchone, Jake]

The only long thermal rides i'll be doing is in light thermals(thats if I can get anything @ all @ my local school fields where I'll be flying it mostly). I realy wouldnt like her to get over 500ft. I've only got my Aspire to 500ft and it got me nervous enough, and my SS might have gone to 500ft before, but i'll never let them get that high again. Im just not comftorble with that high beause even with my Aspire I rarely get a chance to get that high. Its just a lack of experiance and confidance witch im sure will build up over time, but not on this plane. :p

[WGH]

By the end of the summer you'll be like the rest of us, you'll be specking it out and wonder why it every scared you.

[Mchone, Jake]

I would hope so. But it shouldnt ne very hard @ all to speck this little bitty 1m out. :o

[aeajr]

By the end of the summer you'll be like the rest of us, you'll be specking it out and wonder why it every scared you.

If you had another experienced flyer to fly with, you would be more comfortable going higher. A good launch off of a full size hi-start or a winch can take the plane 400-600 feet on the launch, so 500 is not really high at all. However I am around 3M sailplanes all the time so I have seen how high these guys take the planes. When a 7 foot wing span plane is so high that you have trouble telling which way it is going, it is 1500 to 2000 feet away from you. Depending on how far down field it gets, most of that could be altitude

I made a simple altimiter for my plane. I measured off 500 feet, placed my plane there, standing on its nose. I held a ruler up to it, held the ruler at arms length and marked how wide the wings appear. That became my benchmark for height.

Guys have put altimiters in their 2M planes and recorded being over 2000 feet and the 3M planes go higher. We regularly have private planes pass under our models. Of course the higher you go and the further down field, the greater the risk of losing the plane in very strong lift, or not being able to get back to the field since you are usually down wind by time you reach this kind of height.

[Mchone, Jake]

Well daggon!! :eek:
I didnt know that hi-starts could get you so high! I need a new one, but i'll wait on it if the slope is good enough.
I know the feeling of not knowing witch way the plane is going when I got my SS up to about 500-600ft one time. I lost ALL of my oreintation and had to cut power after she went into a diving turn. She landed byherself just fine. I found her 2 fields down on her wheels! Just a lil' bind in teh propshaft! I vouded to never try that again, lol, but only with my parkfliers. I'll be thrilled to get that high with my Aspire, but getting my Bobolink 600ft up would REALY test my skills! And I'd probably get so nervous I'd put it into a slow rolling dive and come down to about 400ft. Im sure the confidence will come, but only if this weather gets better. These past 2-3weeks have been realy not good for thermaling. Only 10* in temp varitaion between 12am and 12pm and very high humidity. Clouds are plintyful as well :( But as soon as the weather wants to cuaperate, i'll continue going as high as I comftorbly can.
I've crossed paths with a couple sailplanes in Lexington while training in C-172s, and most guys around Madison know me and know where I fly so I dont have to worry about them. :D But waht a way to loose a ship, huh!? lmao. That and a lightning strick would be the only ways it would be worth looseing a nice plane. But the chances are slim, so we dont have to worry about that :o
2000ft is pritty dang high! I dought i'll ever let mine get that high, if i can help it.