Hockey ... Bad Influence/ Example for Kids?

[Radioguy]

Hi Folks:

It has been likely more than 20 years since I watched a complete NHL game from beginning to end. The violent nature which seemed to emerge around that time just drove me away from a great game that I used to enjoy playing as a kid.

Yes, hockey has always been a rough & tumble sport. The speed, teamwork, agility, setting up of plays, great saves by the goalie, etc are wonderful aspects of the game. Gretzky is a prime example of sportsmanship and proficient play.

It has been my position for years that the NHL has perverted the game of hockey, and damaged the personalities of many a young person in their developing years.

This latest episode in Vancouver, BC is fuel for my argument.

The only reason Mr. Bertuzzi was crying on camera is that his gravy train just derailed ... simple as that!

He's spent years punching people as a way to settle disputes. A certain segment of the population has been fawning over him for years, telling him how great it was that he "stood up for himself" by fighting on the ice. Crowds of fans clap, scream, and yell when a fight breaks out. Even more than when a goal is scored. Sort of like the Romans screaming for blood.

He has not undergone a sudden transformation because he finally hurt somebody seriously as if it were a good-natured child's prank that somehow went just a little too far.

The reverence and tolerance for fighting in the NHL is just not acceptable. Sort of the same way that enjoying committing rape is quite different than having sex with your loving partner.


All of the players who became involved in the fight preceding this and other incidents should have been given season penalties and their salaries surrendered. A second offence would bring a lifetime ban from organized play at any level of the game.

Holding these overpaid punks up as social icons galls me.

The example set by them on how to deal with problems in life would have you going into the bank to get a loan, you get declined, so you grab the Loan's Officer by the throat and pound him in the face til he changes his mind!

Frankly, I hope Bertuzzi goes to jail. Maybe he can use his skills to fight his way out of the can when somebody is holding a shiv to his neck.

Regards,
Lee Smith

[macr]

I was appalled by the actions of Bertuzzi and yes he should go to jail. We don't see ice hockey over here very much but they did show that low act.
Unfortunately there is a very apt joke about this sport.
I went to a fight the other day and a game of ice hockey broke out!

[TimOBrien]

All of the "professional" sports in the last 20-30 years have degraded themselves by converting over to punks.

Parents, teach your kids to read instead....

[Magnaflux]

Let me get this straight, You can be fined up to half a million dollars now for saying #@$#!@ on the radio yet a Hockey team gets slapped with a $250K fine for deliberately breaking someone’s neck?????

[knight of Ni]

I was at the game Monday night and can say, yes the hit wasn't Bert's most shining moment, however the events following could never have been forseen (Moore passes out, his head slumps down, and Bert, clinging to Moores jersey, follows him down, and lands awkwardly on his head/neck, not to mention the Avs players dog piling on helped any either, last time I heard tis\rd party to a fight was an automatic suspension for at least 2 games)...
I am not disgusted by Bert's "visiciousness" but the NHL officals for only helping to create the media circus that is now ensuing...
If you look at the articles carfully, Mr. Moore (and I use the term mister very loosely, as he has very little to be proud of as well) he has only suffered 2 FRACTURED vertebrae and a mild concussion, and will be walking out of the hospital under his own power in a few days with the aid of a neck brace. There has been no damage to his spinal cord whatsoever (no matter how hard the US media would like to try and make you think so..)
This event sounds very similar to an event that happened a few weeks earlier where Markus Naslund almost suffered the same fate (doctors said 2 inches to the right and he would have suffered the same fate as Moore now stands in).

FOR SHAME to the media for not shedding light on the NHL's incompetance as to refereeing and enforcing regulations on a consistant basis...

If Moore had been penalised as he should have been, he would not have even been at monday's game, and this whole situation would not have transpired.

I HAVE LOST MY RESPECT FOR PROFESSIONAL SPORT ORGANIZATIONS, bu not the athletes who play them...

BTW if nobody can remember, a hockey legend, "Rocket" Richard got suspended for a similar act in the 60's loosing the Stanley Cup for the Habs that year..... hmmmmm wonder why nobody has mentioned this.....

[Dax]

I live in Vancouver. And I have met bert before at a game. He is the nicest guy you could ever meet. I was waiting for this topic to show up so I could vent. I stand firmly behind the fact the bertuzzi did not want to hurt thay guy, he wanted to fight him. Bert and nazz are good friends on and off the ice, and if someone did what Moore did to nazzi to one of my friends I would want to throw a few punches too. The events that led up to the incident we this, Bert pushed and shoved Moore and chalenged him to a fight, Moore knew he was going to get his but wiped so he skated away like a coward, and bert threw a sucker punch from behind. Now that was a cowardly act I admit, but if Moore had taken his medicine he would have gotten off with a black eye and he would learn to respect to leagues top scorers.

If you ask me the person to blame for this whole thing is the colorado coach, WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY would you put a player who you know has a target the size of a bus on his back out with 6 mins to go in a game where one team is loosing by 8 points????????? WHY?

Besides, he could have thrown that punch 10 more times and it wouldn't have resulted in the same thing. Its a fluke that moore got knocked out in one punch, and if they had fell a diffrent way, he wouldn't have been seriously injured, and if the avs didn't pile on top he probably wouldn't have been hut so bad.

If you ask me the decision to suspend him for the season and not 10 games is a political one inspired by the fact that the league is re-negotiating its TV contract with the US right now and doesn't want to be seen as condoning violance. Couple this with the posible lock out next season, I think that the decision was unfair. I you look back at the 10 'worst' hits in the history of the game, almost all the hits that result in suspensions of this length involved a weapon (stick) this should have been a 10 game not a season suspension. I feel that the media is showing todd in an unfair light aswell. He realy is a nice person, and the notion that he was crying because he is gonna lose a measly $ .5mil is a joke, he has more than enough $$$ to quit today and live like a rich man. I believe he is truly sorry for hurting the kid.

[newracer]

Originally posted by knight of Ni
I was at the game Monday night and can say, yes the hit wasn't Bert's most shining moment, however the events following could never have been forseen (Moore passes out, his head slumps down, and Bert, clinging to Moores jersey, follows him down, and lands awkwardly on his head/neck, not to mention the Avs players dog piling on helped any either, last time I heard tis\rd party to a fight was an automatic suspension for at least 2 games)...
I am not disgusted by Bert's "visiciousness" but the NHL officals for only helping to create the media circus that is now ensuing...
If you look at the articles carfully, Mr. Moore (and I use the term mister very loosely, as he has very little to be proud of as well) he has only suffered 2 FRACTURED vertebrae and a mild concussion, and will be walking out of the hospital under his own power in a few days with the aid of a neck brace. There has been no damage to his spinal cord whatsoever (no matter how hard the US media would like to try and make you think so..)
This event sounds very similar to an event that happened a few weeks earlier where Markus Naslund almost suffered the same fate (doctors said 2 inches to the right and he would have suffered the same fate as Moore now stands in).

FOR SHAME to the media for not shedding light on the NHL's incompetance as to refereeing and enforcing regulations on a consistant basis...

If Moore had been penalised as he should have been, he would not have even been at monday's game, and this whole situation would not have transpired.

I HAVE LOST MY RESPECT FOR PROFESSIONAL SPORT ORGANIZATIONS, bu not the athletes who play them...

BTW if nobody can remember, a hockey legend, "Rocket" Richard got suspended for a similar act in the 60's loosing the Stanley Cup for the Habs that year..... hmmmmm wonder why nobody has mentioned this.....
If Moores hit on Naslund was so wrong and brutal then why didn't any Canuk player respond to it during the 5 periods of Hockey prior to Mondays game? Why didn't the NHL suspend Moore? Or even a penalty called? Moore's hit cannot even be compared to what Bertuzzi did to him. It wasn't an awkward landing either, Bertuzzi drove his heard into the ice with his left arm.

Let me hear you say "only two fractured vertebrae" if it happened to you.

The worst part about this is that the Canuks as a team said that a bounty was on Moores head. They admitted that they were out to deliberatly hurt another player, that's just wrong.

[newracer]

Originally posted by Dax
I live in Vancouver. And I have met bert before at a game. He is the nicest guy you could ever meet. I was waiting for this topic to show up so I could vent. I stand firmly behind the fact the bertuzzi did not want to hurt thay guy, he wanted to fight him. Bert and nazz are good friends on and off the ice, and if someone did what Moore did to nazzi to one of my friends I would want to throw a few punches too. The events that led up to the incident we this, Bert pushed and shoved Moore and chalenged him to a fight, Moore knew he was going to get his but wiped so he skated away like a coward, and bert threw a sucker punch from behind. Now that was a cowardly act I admit, but if Moore had taken his medicine he would have gotten off with a black eye and he would learn to respect to leagues top scorers.

If you ask me the person to blame for this whole thing is the colorado coach, WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY would you put a player who you know has a target the size of a bus on his back out with 6 mins to go in a game where one team is loosing by 8 points????????? WHY?

Besides, he could have thrown that punch 10 more times and it wouldn't have resulted in the same thing. Its a fluke that moore got knocked out in one punch, and if they had fell a diffrent way, he wouldn't have been seriously injured, and if the avs didn't pile on top he probably wouldn't have been hut so bad.

If you ask me the decision to suspend him for the season and not 10 games is a political one inspired by the fact that the league is re-negotiating its TV contract with the US right now and doesn't want to be seen as condoning violance. Couple this with the posible lock out next season, I think that the decision was unfair. I you look back at the 10 'worst' hits in the history of the game, almost all the hits that result in suspensions of this length involved a weapon (stick) this should have been a 10 game not a season suspension. I feel that the media is showing todd in an unfair light aswell. He realy is a nice person, and the notion that he was crying because he is gonna lose a measly $ .5mil is a joke, he has more than enough $$$ to quit today and live like a rich man. I believe he is truly sorry for hurting the kid.
Morre already stood up in the first period and won the fight. I didn't see Bertuzzi challenging Moore at all. There was another player down in the Av's end pushing and slashing at Moore but not Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi simply tracked Moore down, followed him around for a few seconds and then punched him.

You don't hide a player because you think he may get hurt. If he didn't dress that game then everybody would be calling him and Colorado cowards. Besdies There were already 7 periods of hockey prior to this incident for the Canuks to respond, including a fight with Moore.

I think the suspension is justified. Moore isn't going to play again this season, Bertuzzi shouldn't either.

[DaveSawers]

Hockey is a disgrace as a professional sport for not banning and severely fining players for deliberate acts of aggression.

There is no need for hockey to be a contact sport any more than basketball, soccer or virtually any other team sport. In most sports, if aggressive contact occurs, a penalty results. Deliberate aggression is treated the same as common assault and is dealt with by the law.

It should be the same in hockey. It's long overdue for a few of these so called sportsmen to end up in jail.

[Sport Flyer]

Hockey is Canada's great oxymoron. Overall we tend to be a very civilized bunch UNTIL someone drops a puck at center ice. As a kid I played organized hockey up to Juniors and to show for it I have a 7 unit bridge in my mouth, a crooked nose and several scars that according to some, helped to build character. As an adult I tried my hand at commercial hockey for a while but didn't really find the slashing, spearing etc worth it when, after it was all said and done, everyone still had to go to their respective jobs the next day.

I have mixed emotions over the Moore hit. The hockey barbarian in me thinks he brought it on himself. It was payback for the Naslund elbow. Bertuzzi was pulling on his sweater for half the length of the ice and Moore didn't turn to face him. He was a coward. Bertuzzi was tripped and did not deliberately slam Moore into the ice. This is the action that most likely did the most damage. On the other hand, Moore certainly didn't deserve to be knocked out cold and have his neck broken and there is no such thing as 100% recovery from severe concussion or a broken neck.

Now with all that said, the violence presently in hockey SHOULD NOT exist period. We bully-proof our schools and try and teach violent or aggressive kids anger management techniques. We have laws to prevent people from bashing each others brains out on the street. Yet, for whatever reason, we allow hockey players to duke it out nightly in every level of hocky past the bantam level (age 14). Hockey players at the professional level can make millions per year. I'm afraid this is the lesson kids are most likely to take to heart.

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by DaveSawers
There is no need for hockey to be a contact sport any more than basketball, soccer or virtually any other team sport. Basketball a non-contact sport? :rolleyes: Not since the 60's maybe. I suppose you could play no-touch hockey... shoot, why not NFFL too? (National Flag Football League) Truth is contact in sports sells and unless the fans demand that contact stops by NOT attending events the leagues will continue to showcase the product the fan wants.

I feel fighting has a definite place in the sport of hockey as bound by certain unwritten rules known to those who participate. Momentum swings, team play and game atmosphere can all change with one good honest bruhaha between two willing combatants. Fighting on skates is an art and a talent in spite of the repugnant nature to some people. Gone are the days of the pure "enforcer" or "goon" from team rosters - you still have to be able to skate and contribute to your teams success. If you can also stand up for your team and teammates.... so be it.

With all that said.... the blindside hit by Bertuzzi was unacceptable in every sense of the hockey fighting world and my own little gray area of what I like about hockey. The media exploited this for sensational purposes :eek: and hearing the description from a friend vastly differed from the replay I eventually saw on the tube. The "continual face bashing into the ice" simply did not happen. The suspension will be just and we will soon forget and move on to other things.

An aside to Lee Smith..... your passionate view point is noted but rarely do you see a professional hockey player ever be considered a social icon. :p

[Sport Flyer]

rarely do you see a professional hockey player ever be considered a social icon.

They are up here, the same way many baseball or basketball players are revered on your side of the border. And also, while most adults see professional athletes for what they are its the kids who will most likely hold them up to "icon" stature. While growing up I literally worshipped the likes Dave Keon, Ron Ellis, Yvan Cournoyer, Frank and Peter Mahovlich and Ken Dryden, of course. Hockey may be just a passing fancy for many Americans, but in Canada it is our national sport and a major part of how many Canadians define who we are.

[Greg Smith]

Please note where I live.

What's the difference between a NHL game and a dog fight?
They don't let the dogs have sticks.

I have been utterly disgusted with professional hocky for years. Yes other sports are rough but they police themselves far better.

I don't blame Bertuzzi as much as I blame the NHL brass, including the owners. As IC points out in his chilling, disturbing defense of thugs and violence above, Bertuzzi was likely working within his understanding of the sick system. It's the system and those who have the gaul to support and defend it who are most responsible.

I don't support this sport, don't watch it, don't let my kids watch it. I turned down an invitation once from the owners of the Red Wings to watch a game from their box for free as a matter of principal. I have no use for anyone who declares themselves or their "sport" to be not bound by the rules of civilized behavior and above the law.

[ICTHRMLS]

Greg - I can empathize with your distaste of hockey as I too dislike many aspects of some sports. While there are certain truths about the sport of hockey you deem unacceptable I would hardly consider them chilling and disturbing... nor would I consider my opinion to be either. If fighting was banned in the sport of hockey today - so be it since the rules are the same for everyone. To say that...
Bertuzzi was likely working within his understanding of the sick system. would imply that you can read minds. I doubt anyone will truely know why he chose that path at that time except him. As I posted... I do NOT agree with his actions. I will say you are doing the best thing you can at this point by not participating at any level. That is a freedom in which too many people fail to excercise, whether it be literature, music, movies or sports..... if it offends - don't watch/listen to it.

[Greg Smith]

IC, first you say:

"I feel fighting has a definite place in the sport of hockey"

Then you say in response to my post:

"I too dislike many aspects of some sports"

I cannot agree with your characterization of our differences. Physical attack on another is a criminal offense and in a whole different category than "disagreement on an aspect of sports".

Striking another person is permitted in certain sports, under tightly defined conditions, such as in American football and boxing. No sport or activity allows or condones attacks such as are routine in hockey. Please look around. Hockey stands alone as declaring itself above civilized rules or tort law. Either you believe in rules and laws, sportmanship, and civilized behavoir, or you do not. It has nothing to do with whether you "dislike the aspects of some sports".

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by Sport Flyer
Hockey may be just a passing fancy for many Americans, but in Canada it is our national sport and a major part of how many Canadians define who we are. You are correct and I meant no disrespect.... a poor attempt at humor aimed at the wrong target. Hockey is no passing fancy (but aren't those fancy passes great :D ) for me.... I appreciate all aspects of the sport and put it up against any other professional sport in all areas. In MY opinion nothing somes close to offering the speed, toughness (hey, 82 games plus another 28 possible - whew), continual action and skill of a hockey game. The game has its downsides and not just the fighting part. I look forward to some of the new rules changes that are under consideration. I hope something good comes from the Bertuzzi incident - good for the entire sport

[ICTHRMLS]

Greg - I guess we have to agree to disagree..... however, as the
RULES stand right now, certain actions you don't like are part of the sport.

Either you believe in rules and laws, sportmanship, and civilized behavoir, or you do not.
I happen to believe in all of those and play by the same.

[Dax]

You guys should watch a rugby game sometime. It makes hockey look very civilised.

[Greg Smith]

I played rugby in college. I even got knocked out once on a legal hit. We did not start fights. Well maybe once but that was an exception.

There were no "codes", enforcers, or the other junk like pro hockey.

[DougB]

As a past player and an admirer of professional hockey I do believe that Bertuzzi's mugging of Steve Moore wasn't his best move.

However, considering that Colorado's coach Tony Granato was himself guilty of breaking a stick over the head of an opposing teams player in years past just goes to show how much of a complete goof this guy is. The fact that he played Steve Moore during a game that was so far out of reach for Vancouver was just waiving a red flag in the face of Vancouver's players.

Also, for those of you who think Steve is greatly hurt, the news is (from the hospital) that he should be playing before the regular season finishes or playoff's are over, regardless of the media's attempt to cloud/sensationalize the issue and railroad Bertuzzi.

Funny, someone mentioned that why wasn't the mugging of Naslund done before the 7 extra periods were played. It was, to some extent, Brad May went after Moore immediately, but was hauled off by the ref's before the fight could even start. The NHL should look to itself, instead of the media to figure out a way of controlling the current lack of respect and discipline the players are showing each other, the referee's and the league in general. Either way the recent game was a sorry example of the fastest sport on ice.

DougB

[Dax]

I still say that the coach was to blame. Moore should have never been on the ice in the 3rd. Its not even like he is a good player, or they needed his skills to win. And I think that the avs coach's stick to the head is THE WORST hit to ever happen in the NHL even more so than the brashire hit to the head.

[Sport Flyer]

The Ted Green hit in the 60s was absolutely brutal. They were chopping each other back and for then the guy he was fighting basically then two-handed tomahawked him across the top of the head with the stick, and this back in the days of no helmuts. Took three operations to save his life. Green ended up running a mini-golf place back here in Winnipeg.

[newracer]

Originally posted by Dax
I still say that the coach was to blame. Moore should have never been on the ice in the 3rd. Its not even like he is a good player, or they needed his skills to win. With a game that has been riddled with fights and cheap shots and is for all intensive purposes over, who are you going to play, your rookie that needs ice time and isn't a key player or your best vetrans that will take you through the palyoffs? Not the coaches fault at all, well at least not the Av's coach. ;)

[newracer]

Originally posted by DougB
Funny, someone mentioned that why wasn't the mugging of Naslund done before the 7 extra periods were played. It was, to some extent, Brad May went after Moore immediately, but was hauled off by the ref's before the fight could even start.
DougB They still had 2 periods of that game and 3 periods of the next. Both were close games though at the Pepsi center though. :rolleyes:

[Radioguy]

Hi Folks:

There is one simple reason Todd was crying on TV, and that's money. Not the paltry sum of 500K he'll lose this season, but the multiple millions he'll lose before this is all over. He'll be lucky to find a job selling used cars wearing a plaid suit.

I hope he has been investing his previous earnings well, because his earning power has just started a dramatic downhill slide.

You can't possibly think that Todd has undergone a sudden behavioural reformation before the TV press conference because Moore suffered an injury. He's spent many years being groomed for that very moment when he hit Moore by having had dozens upon dozens of fights on the ice probably starting when he was about 13 years old.

If he and a few buddies had stumbled onto Moore on some back road drinking beer and laid him out with a few punches, he'd have been bragging about it for months among themselves instead of suddenly thinking "this is bad, I hurt a man, I'd better change my ways or I'll end up in the slammer"

In this case, the only thing that Todd is crying about is getting caught and the ramifications of being caught, not in the results of his actions. His little performance was not genuine concern for his actions.

From time to time you'll see a comment ... "Oh gosh....he didn't mean to hurt anyone" .... any 3 year old kid knows full well that punching somebody hurts and the reason somebody throws a punch is to cause pain.

His career is now toast as far as making the big bucks.

He has instantly become about as marketable as OJ Simpson for product endorsements.

Lee

[DougB]

Sorry Lee,

I know the big guy slightly (I also live fairly close to him) and can vouch he's an alright sort! He and his wife Julie are very active in the local community during hockey season when they live here and Todd works very hard for Canuck Place, a hospice for terminally ill kids here in Vancouver that is sponsored in a large fashion by the Vancouver Canucks organization. On ice, his persona is that of take no prisoners...

Actually, he's one of the nicest guys you could meet away from the rink and I can tell you he's hurting right now, not because of future financial considerations or the suspension, but because he actually does care about the condition of the other player. He's also bright enough to realize that the shoe could have been on the other foot and he himself could've been hurt badly, instead of the other way around.

I go back to my initial post and say that the NHL has got some serious deciding to do, either they want the US network money and sell a rock'em'sock'em brand of hockey so Gary Bettman and his ilk can make millions more, or control the discipline now with whatever means they have to stop this travesty from getting any bigger or worse.

DougB

[Dax]

Your right he wanted to hurt him, like your gonna have to put some ice on that eye tonight, but not, HURT HIM, like wake up in the hospital hurt him.

Its not like he thought 'I want to make shure this kid never plays again and spends his life eating through a straw'. He just wanted to teach him not to hit a leading player. What would have happened if it was gretsky he hit and not nazzi? OUTRAGE, but I think the rules have gotten a bit slack since the great one left the game (the un-written rules that is)

[Greg Smith]

I sometimes wonder if NHL hockey violence is the end result of a cold calculation that goes like this:

1. Hockey is one of the best and most exciting sports to watch live because of the speed, constant action and closeness to the action the crowd gets in modern big arenas.
2. Hockey is one of the worst TV sports to watch because viewers have a hard time seeing the puck and don't get to appreciate the speed because TV negates perhiperal vision.
3. Therefore, we are not going to even try to make it a big TV draw. We are rather going to make it a big live event draw.
4. Allowing some violence, especially fights, will increase the live event crowds.

I am not saying I believe this but I do wonder about it.

[Dax]

not true, I like watching a game on TV better. Then again I HATE watching a game on an american network, they can't follow the puck worth a damn. I think you see alot more of what happens on tv than in the arena, plus instant replay is great if you miss a goal because you stoped to get a fresh beer. I think hockey is like a chess game. when played by two REAL GOOD teams its like watching chess, no one scores till the other team makes a mistake.

[ICTHRMLS]

Originally posted by Dax
not true, I like watching a game on TV better. I have been to a number of games and the TV affords better overall views, replays, shorter restroom lines, cheaper beer and I don't have to put up with obnoxious fans - for or against. While the FoxTrak puck experiment went by the wayside, it had the potential to bring in a lot more fans. It was a great concept if only you could turn it off if you did not want to see the blue/red streak. Just another chilling opinion.... ice, chilling, get it? :D

[Shortman]

Im sorry, but Hockey is one of the greatest sports ever played. I am 16 and have played Ice Hockey at the highest levels.

I started when I was 10, and went on to play Peewee AA Icehockey for the Junior Fresno Falcons, then went to Bantams AA Tier for the Junior Fresno Falcons and then finally Midget AA Teir. I tried out for the Junior Olympic team when I was 12 and made the team, but was unable to go due to the mass expense of traveling to Ontario for the tournament. Dont think that ohhh were 12-16 years old, you guys don't hit like an NHL player, your thinking of the kids just learning. When I tried out, there was a kid that was 6' 6" and 250+lbs, they have kids in my league shooting 80+mph. However, we are all at the same level and all are aware of our own skills.

I played FULL CHECK hockey since I was 12, never broke a bone, chipped or lost a tooth, and never hurt myself. You want to know whats funny, I broke my collar bone playing rollar hockey with no checking allowed.

Hockey players if your not aware wear A LOT of protection.

Girdle, shin pads, cup, shoulder pads, chest protector, back protector, elbow pads, and a helmet. The reason they dont wear a full face mask is for a couple reasons, one is for much better vision on the ice, they are able to see the PUCK coming at them quicker and even see the defensive player coming to take a lick on him.

Why dont they wear a full face mask? Because NHL players are professionals, they dont shoot 6 feet off the ice, they have controlled shots and only take a shot when there is no obstruction from the path of the net. A hockey player isnt a wildman trying to shoot someones head off, they are trying to score a goal.

Football is no more dangerous then Hockey, just hockey players go faster.

Sorry, but hockey is great, if you dont think kids should learn it then I feel sorry for your kids or any other kids that you dont let them learn. Its a very safe sport and equipment now is far safer then it was even 10 years ago.

The guy who broke his neck just happened to have a freak accident, nothing else.

I had my friend break his neck wrestling his Sophomore year in High School.


Steven

[ICTHRMLS]

Very insightful post Shortman.... actually closer to the thread topic than many others by discussing the effect on kids. I know for a fact that entry level hockey (peewee or whatever it is called) is HUGE - even in the South. Ice time is very difficult to come by and the commitment by the players and their parents is very demanding in terms of time and dollars. The number of rinks in North Texas has skyrocketed and the interest does not seem to be waning. I see the biggest setback to the kids being the high cost of equipment and overbearing frustrated parents who can't behave as fans any better than Bertuzzi did. Otherwise, I see hockey as a great teacher of motor-skills, team play and commitment like many other sports are capable of.

[Shortman]

Very true. I will be upfront, my dues that my parents were nice enough to pay were $3,000 + for the season, plus traveling expenses around the state and even out of the state, Pheonix, Seattle, Ontario...

Its very expensive, and that is the only set-back. The time involved is intense as well. I have played many sports over the years, Cross-country, Track, football, soccer, baseball, all at Varsity level and they dont compare with Hockey and the commitment.


Steven

[ZRX Doug]

Steve/Shortman..all that you say is very true, but I've got a question for you.
If you did exactly what was done (break another players neck while fighting, not checking, not accidentally.) during one of your games, what do you suppose would happen to you?
At your level, is fighting tolerated? Don't say yes..I've got a few nephews/cousins who play or have played to your level & higher (this is Detroit, man..Hockey is bigger here than in most anywhere but Canada, eh?) and they all would have been looking at serious trouble for such an offense.
An accidental injury while playing just isn't the same thing as an injury caused with intent.
You guys who think NHL players aren't role models need to come on up to Meesheegan & check out the lines of elementary school kids wearing Red Wings jerseys...cripes, my 78 year old mom thinks Steve Yzerman is some kinda god or something. And my seven year old great nephew turns into a little hyper fool after watching a game on TV.
The fighting needs to be taken out of the NHL, it isn't part of the game.
Myself, I can take Hockey or leave it..if I wanna watch fast & deadly sports, I prefer sportbike racing...pretty rare to see one of these guys take a swing at another!
:D

[Shortman]

Fighting is a part of hockey, always will be. Players get frustrated with eachother and usually both want to hit eachother badly, I never hurt anybody or broke a guys neck, but actually I did have a friend get hurt.

And actually, he broke his neck, he was checked from behind and put his head right into the boards, he was not fortunate to put his head up which would have saved much of the pain. His was a minor fracture but never the less broke it. The kid got a 10min penalty. If your fighting, thats just like taking a cheap shot or check at someone. Ive seen it happen, but Burtuzzi has been playing a long time, and he is very talented, it was just a freak accident.

Fresno may not have the leagues Detroit does, but one of my friends just got signed into the NHL, they are twins and 1 is now playing for the New Yersey Devils and both went and played in the Canadian Junior league. So we definately have talent, plus, our coach is Randy Semchuck, played with Wayne Greatsky for the LA Kings. So we do have talent, and we beat the team from Ontario, canadians are good, but they can be beat.


Steven

[ZRX Doug]

No, man..checking/hitting/bumping/whatever in pursuit of control of the puck, THAT is part of the game. Intentionally using physical violence to inflict injury for personal reasons isn't hockey, it's criminal.
Last time I was on a road racing course, a rookie rider cut inside of me and panic-braked..forcing me wide, resulting in a crash that caused some serious damages to me and my motorcycle..by your logic, I should have approached the guy in the pits and brained him with a ball-peen hammer or something.
Fortunately, we were both adult human beings able to exercise control over our emotions, as most everyone over the age of seven (excepting hockey players, apparently) is able to...instead of trying to put each other in the hospital, he met me at the ambulance and apologized..and I accepted it.
That's just the way it works..I have plenty of friends who've lost bikes or have been injured seriously because of another racer's actions..Harsh words have been used on occasion, but it never entered anyone's mind to use violence to get revenge..
Why is it that racers are able to come so much closer to death and still be sportsmen about it, but ya put some goof on a pair of hockey skates and all of a sudden getting tripped is cause for attempted freakin' homicide?

[Radioguy]

Doug:

Well said! That's my point exactly. What is up with hockey players thinking they should be allowed special treatment as far as fair play goes?

Believe me, the game isn't so much better/faster than all/any other sports that it can get players so wound up with bloodlust they can't be expected to maintain control of themselves like a pack of frenzied Bull Terriers ripping apart a tame house cat.

A player in .... football for example (pick any sport)... playing in the Rose Bowl no doubt is all worked up about the game, the competition, the crowd, possible NFL contracts, the cheerleaders, mom & dad watching in the stands, etc. but they don't think "fighting is just a part of the game" and decide to give the competition a "pop in the chops" out of frustration with not getting his way on a play.

I'd suggest the fans would be pretty pissed at having the game interrupted a dozen times by by small time hoodlums deciding to duke it out because somebody got the better of them during a pass intercept.

If I want to watch a fight, I'll watch heavyweight boxing or full contact Karate and see it done right. Especially in Karate, the fighters are really worked up about winning the match. The game is very much about fair play and sportsmanship and the officiating body is exceptionally intollerant of people who lose mental control.

If I want to watch a couple of little spoiled brats take a few swings & pokes at each other, I can just go and sit in a local bar on a Saturday night and eventually some social misfit clown with a belly full of beer will decide to punch out an ex-buddy for stealing his girlfriend.....that's the quality of fighting in the NHL.

Lee

[ZRX Doug]

PS. Steve, I didn't mean to infer that Fresno was any less of a talent pool for hockey than Detroit..sorry if ya took it that way.
It's just up here, if you aren't in to hockey you're the oddball..EVERYONE is a fan, seems like. And the way the NHL players behave is reflected in the behavior of every little kid who watches...like I said, my great-nephew is a little monster after watching a game.
Ya wanna talk about adrenelin overload in a sport? Sign up for a track day at a local road course sometime..see what a half hour of constantly hanging your life on the edge will do to ya. There are no rear view mirrors on racebikes..you are truly putting your life in the hands of the guy behind you..but it all works out, 'cuz the guy in front is doing the same with you.
In the incident I mentioned above, I was so geeked on competitive juices I didn't realize my foot was broken in four places for close to an hour.
:D

[Wingbreaker]

I think anything out in the world can be a bad influence for kids, but rather than trying to decide whether something is good or bad for someone or stifle the things that might affect our children we should educate our children about these things instead.

I also think good parenting will prevent anything from having a bad influence on children.

We are always quick to blame something or someone else for our childrens' behavior, but in reality it is the parents' faults.

I would never blame a hockey player, movie, radio show or anything else for my child's behavior. I would blame myself and try to find the problem I have with raising my son or daughter.

This is the problem with our society, especially now. We try too hard to stifle everything rather than try to find out what our real problems are.

FCC! Don't ban bad entertainment! Ban bad parents!

WB

[ZRX Doug]

Uh-huh..normally speaking, I would agree with you. What little kids see and how they react to it should be constantly supervised by their guardians.
However, we're talking about an activity that is being pursued by a bunch of guys who are (like it or not) heroes to these little kids. This is a national (more or less) sport..it's not like we're talking about illegal dog fights hidden away in the dark, this is a readily available form of entertainment. I grew up watching the games with my dad..kids today should have the same chance to watch a sportsmanlike game.
Asking someone who is looked up to by our children to behave in a non-criminal manner isn't out of line..It's the law! (At least for everyone else in the world.)
What would you suggest parents do in this situation?
Ban their children from watching hockey? That seems a little harsh..it's not the game's fault.
Or would you prefer that parents try to explain the paradox of the good man doing bad things, and becoming a multi millionaire while doing it? This isn't like a movie, you can't tell your kids that those people are just acting. The injured guys are really injured, and the ones who commit the crime walk away free, or with a slap on the wrist at most. What kind of moral lesson is that to teach a child?
At this point in time, the NHL is teaching our kids that violence is not only acceptable, but profitable and something to be commended.

[Wingbreaker]

Ban their children from watching hockey? That seems a little harsh..it's not the game's fault.

Yes, if your kids can't handle it tell them NO!!! This is the problem with the US right now. The government wants to be our parent and tell us what we should watch or listen to. It should be our responsibilities not the government. Teach your kids and tell them no if you think they should not be watching it.

I know many people love hockey and other sports because they are violent. If you don't want your kids watching violent sports don't let them. You can't force people to be role models, and if you are relying on Pro sports players to be kids' roll models you really need to look at how you are raising your children.

Kids should be banned from watching any adult game with violence if they are easily influenced by it. If my kids liked hockey I would teach them that these men fight because of game stress, egos and attitude that is not accpetible. If they copy or mimic a hockey players violence or attitude I will stop them from watching it, YES! Children will know right from wrong if you teach them.

Look at all this backyard wrestling. Do you blame the WWF or whatever fake wrestling association it is now for this stuff? No, it is the parents. They should watch their kids more to prevent this behavior and take more time to deal with it.

Good parenting starts with NO!!!

[ZRX Doug]

I think you're missing the whole point..I personally don't have children. And frankly, I agree with what you say about parental responsibility. In a perfect world, parents would watch their children and deal with problems before they were manifested in anti-social behavior..however, in THIS world, parents are too busy or don't give a damn 90% of the time. So when their little brat with his "violence is the solution" attitude grows up, me, you, and the rest of society are the ones who pay for his behavior.
Believe it or not, I also like the violence of the game..key words are "of the game"...body-checking a guy into the boards in pursuit of a win is a pretty entertaining bit of brutality! However, sneaking up behind the body-checker ten minutes later and sucker-punching him while the puck is half a rink away is criminal..

Anyway, the whole "personal responsibility" thing is sort of a two-edged sword, isn't it? Or is it only parents who need to be responsible?
Shouldn't the league and it's players be responsible when they commit a felony assualt? If it isn't an accidental injury incurred during regular game play, then the guilty party should face the same charges he would if he committed the assault in the arena parking lot after the game..

[Wingbreaker]

OH, yeah. I guess I got off track there. I do believe the guy should be punished. Nobody should get away with assault no matter how rich or famous they are. It is very bad for kids to see someone get away with a crime, especially a violent one. You are right 100% I wasn't paying attention too well to what you said. I thought you were talking about the sport in general because the topic asks if Hockey is a bad example, not players who do crimes and get away with it.

[TLyttle]

You have to have leather balls to play rugby (bumper sticker I saw recently)...

My old man played hockey since before school, and he stopped watching hockey the day they showed a fistfight on tv. He explained that it was the stupidest thing he had ever seen, that there were a dozen other ways to punish an opposing player without trying to swing at a guy while wearing skates. Nothing for me has changed, I still regard NHL as the Ameteur League. I watch US and Canadian football, Olympic wrestling, and some other SPORTS. Fighting is part of hockey? Count me out, count out any kid that I have influence over, and be sure that I will treat a hockey player or fan as a neanderthal: proof is the interviews after the game if you need it. Football (US etc) has the wonderful rule that fighting on the field is grounds for immediate expulsion; works for me, as does the tv coverage that will not show a fight on the field.

Soccer: That is where the real athletes are: 90 minutes, full bore, few subs, lots of sportsmanship in all but the top leagues (again, it's usually the fans that are the boors!), and played the WORLD over, not just the US. Rugby is right beside it, particularly in the sportsmanship category, and really, isn't that what any SPORT is about? Or am I just being silly here? When I went to school, the old adage, "it isn't win or lose, it is how you play the game", but that has been replaced with, " winning isn't everything, it is the only thing".

Bring on the Olympics, except for the drugs the oly real "sport" left.

[Wingbreaker]

Soccer is a sissy sport besides the endurance. I lived in Italy for three years and went to many soccer games. I never saw so many faked injuries before in my life. What's up with that? Play the game or go home. Soccer fans are tougher than the players! I got hit in the head with can openers and coins during all derby mathces. What a crazy place a soccer stadium in Europe is. Talk about violence! But is is OK because afterwards everyone went to the bars for great wine off the tap!:D

[TLyttle]

Hey, you think that acting and diving are limited to soccer but not in hockey? Guess again...

Hooliganism is not the sport, soccer is. Also, look at the number of fans at a rugger game: they play the sport for themselves, not for tv ratings, and rugby will never be a business the way hockey is, which brings up the subject of money again. I've seen dads (and moms) drive their kids into the game because they see that a bully like Domi (sp?) makes millions a year, so they figure tehy are investing in their future by taking their gradeschool dropout to every available hockey tournament. Spare me.

Hockey is a business, not a sport. Bert is likely a nice guy off the rink, as are some other players, but the more they talk about a hockey strike, the happier I am; it may bring some sanity back into the REAL sport of hockey.

[ZRX Doug]

"Mass genocide is the most exhausting activity one can engage in, next to soccer."

Sorry for the off-topic quote, but Wingbreaker's soccer comment got stuck in my head and it wouldn't go away until I shared this line from "Dogma."

[TLyttle]

Now, THAT is funny!

No one has mentioned Lacrosse either (or have they?): this is a game that is just as tough as hockey, and IMHO, faster, and only now is it catching on. Anyone who enjoys the rock'em sock'em of hockey should try a Lacrosse game, just once.

[Radioguy]

Hi:

I played Lacrosse for about 5 years as a teenager, and was Team Captain for quite awhile. Really enjoyed the game a lot.

I got a ball in the forehead once and was out cold for about a minute. Lost the ball in the sun when playing outdoors. By the time I picked it up, saw it coming just long enough to know it was too late to do anything about it ... LOL.

Lee