Puddlemaster / Pondside Owners Club

[Dereck]

Hi Folks

These little floatyboats have a remarkable number of followers considering they are all handbuilt from kits and there's no PacRim BARF edition (yet http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/frown.gif).

As I have found time to tinker with my webpage, how's about we devote a little space to this great little model?

Okay, its not great art, but if you send me your shots of your Puddlemaster / Pondside, I'll figure out how to put them up. Might take a while as our e-mail server is in a state of flux (geeks keep showing up nights and messing with it http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif).

The URL is www.weekendpilot.homestead.com (http://www.weekendpilot.homestead.com) - send them to the e-address above. Once it gets some decent photo content, I'm going to add it to the "RC Ring" - plus, shameless plug, there's all the details to the Rockville "Spring Sizzle" e-fly on there too.

Let's keep it to the PM / PS at first, but "scale models" are okay too. Love to see one of the ten cell version from the SEM plan, for one!

Maybe we'll let the "Electric Scout" in too - its halfway to a Pondside http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Regards

Dereck

[wayne]

Hi Dereck

I am just finishing my Pondside, done the frame work, just thinking about the cover stuff now. Might use Mica film for wings,and Oracover for body and tail ends, will send you pics when done, I hope for Xmas for some fun ROG snow flying.
Regards
Wayne

[Brad Trent]

Dereck:
I scanned some photos of my P.M. this evening and sent them off to the e-mail address I had for you in my address file, but it seemed to be taking a loooooonnngg time to upload, so I assume that I somehow created a monster size file. Ignore it if it reaches you, I'll try to figure out how to get it smaller and post again when I do. This high-tech gadgetry tries my patience, but I'll persist till I get it. How many K should a reasonable jpg be? Or should it be some other format?
Brad.

[Dr. Jet]

Dereck,
As a former Puddlemaster owner, I volunteer to be "Member Emeritus" of the club. I built one in 1994 and oddly enough, it showed up at our field about 6 months ago in the hands of someone who purchased it from a local hobby shop. It still had the original covering and looked as good as it did on it's maiden flight. Great little airplane.

The Grumman is now flying, but I'd love to have another PM. Maybe someone will want to trade one for something I have hanging in the hangar.

[Dereck]

Hi Doc
You're in! Why not just get yourself a HH PS and make one. With CA glue, the wing assembles about as fast as BARFing anyway http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Brad - I dunno. Understand F-stops, shutter speeds and ASA well enough, this new fangled stuff makes my head hurt. If it makes it through my server tonight, I can mess with it to managable proportions, I think.

BTW - don't hold your breath! It may take me a week or so to get the PM/PS Owners Page up to viewable standards.

Dereck

[John E]

All this Pondside non-association stuff appears to be reminiscent of the Small Model non-Association http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

I think you need an expert on moving scanned photos, but for what it's worth I've been playing with a Sony digital camera with E-mail setting - large numbers of quality jpg pictures fit on a floppy, and they move like a flash.

I have also found that by scanning at 150 dpi, and using 256 colours it's possible to have good on screen pictures that take up less than 500 kB. And I found that jpgs need to be less than that to move at any speed through E-mail. I also found that by scanning into MS Photo Editor I could set the picture size to something like 3" x 3" and pictures sent would fit on the width of the screen, unlike those pictures that are about 3 times the width of the screen - guilty of those!

As I said, you really need someone who knows about these things.

Regards John

[This message has been edited by John E (edited 12-01-2000).]

[oded mazor]

hi Dereck,

do you have the photos I e-mailed you after my PS maiden flight, or should i e-mail the photo again ?

thanks, oded.

[Dereck]

Hi Oded
I'd appreciate the electronic format ones again, if you could, The 'real' photos are somewhere in England by now.

I made up the rough page this afternoon, just have to sort it some more and start adding shots. Still have to digitise shots of my two Puddlemasters to add to my present Pondside.

BTW - anyone had any problems with the Pondside battery tray cracking under the strain? You shouldn't have this problem with the Puddlemaster. If so, drop me a line, I have a good fix for what ailed mine, and could run up a sketch in jpg.

Regards

Dereck

[Brad Trent]

Dereck:
I trust that my much reduced file made it to your e-mail. I rescanned the photos at 72 dpi per advice from Kim Komando, computer guru on radio, and the file size was orders of magnitude smaller. I hope that my earlier attempt didn't cause a log-jam in your system. See, us old dogs do occasionally learn a new trick.
Brad.

[Joe Elston]

Derrick, I plan to start on my PM this weekend. If I ever find an Astroflight direct 05 at a decent price it will fly.As I said before it will have a glassed fuse and painted. I am also putting ailerons on it and plan to take much if not all the Diehedral out of the wing. When I get her done I will send pictures. Anyone have a astro 05 cobalt HELP?
Joe

[Thomas B]

I have a long framed up but never covered and finished Puddlemaster. Box stock with the exception of a V-tail conversion. Old Astro 035 for power. Will try to get a pic for you.

[Dereck]

Brad - sorry, it didn't make it through.

Joe - Good luck with the project. If Astro owners are anything like me - it's in my will! Stick a ferrite on top those poles, go out and test fly it without the floats overland, by handlaunching. Add a little uptrim before you push it off - they pitch down on handlaunch.

Ask me how I know http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/frown.gif

Thomas - that could be interesting. Hope you fitted a water rudder. The stock set-up has the best water control I have ever seen. Photos very welcome.

I can only work on the PS/PM Owners Club at work, and have to carry the photos in on disk, as we aren't fully up and running yet, will let you know when its up and running.

Oded - TVM for the shots - great stuff.

Regards

Dereck

[Brad Trent]

Dereck:
Thanks for letting me know the e-mail with attatched photo didn't make it. I re-sent it this evening, hope I got it right this time.
Brad.

[Dereck]

Brad, Ken - got them TVM.

Did some more to my HH Scout. If you ever have an urge - check the drawings around the tailplane and its seat on the fuselage. Good model, pretty 'interesting' QC on the plan and kit bits http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

I went out to to the shop tonight just planning on punching out all the pondside parts and cutting some lightening holes. After about three hours,..I've got the whole fuselage and tail framed up,..man this thing builds fast. I want to make it light enough so I can use some car packs I have from a previous life (6 cells), with an MM. the fuselage and tailfeathers, built, but not sanded, are total 152 grams (5 and 3/8 ounces). I replaced all the 1/16 with contest grade, and cut bunch of holes with vaious forstener bits. I compute a bit under an ounce for the ultracote lite covering, after adding up all the surface area, and 2 ounces for servos/speed control/rx. Even with a bit of fudge factor,..I should have the fuse/tail under 10 ounces. with the MM (8 oz.) and 6-cell 3000's (12.2 oz.) it'll be right at 30 without the wing. Sorry for all the digression, but I do have a question here <G>. How much does your average pondside wing/tip-floats weigh? I use CA for construction, and I'll be using ultracote lite (roughly 1/2 monokote weight). another idea hit me, so I made some measurements with the motor on it and a gearbox, and I could run a 10 inch prop with about 1/4" clearance to the top deck. I would probably have to add even more upthrust than is recommended due to the higher thrust line,.. but I could gain a good bit of efficiency with the bigger prop,..i.e. longer flights,.. whatta ya think?

GW

Originally posted by Dereck:
Brad, Ken - got them TVM.

Did some more to my HH Scout. If you ever have an urge - check the drawings around the tailplane and its seat on the fuselage. Good model, pretty 'interesting' QC on the plan and kit bits http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Dereck

[Mark Wood]

GW:
I was told that "No way, no how" was a prop much bigger than a 7" gonna fit on a Pondside. You telling me I might be able to run a GB and maybe 10" prop??

[GWRIGHT]

Unless my ruler is wrong,... yes.
With a mag mayhem bolted on, direct drive adapter on front,.. I can get a 9" prop on it,.. but the tips are within 1/8" of the fuse top. the gearbox adds a bit over 1/2" to it,.. so that means a 10" prop with a tad over 1/8" clearance. They supply one long piece of hardwood for the two motor mounts. I simply measured and cut it in half, and glued it in,..without checking the length to the plans. It ends up just a shade taller than the plans show. The thing that concerns me is the thrust line. It would be WAY HIGH then, and I don't know if just adding more upthrust will counter it,..or if it will create more of a problem than it's worth. I'll probably try it both ways. After running a bunch of numbers in motocalc,.. If I were to use a 2.5 ratio and a 10/9 with 6 cells, it predicts 20 ounces thrust and 45mph pitch speed. On Dereck's review model, he used an 035 with 7/4 on 6 cells. Motocalc predics 22 ounces thrust and 53mph pitch speed. However,.. it shows the 035 direct setup at 31 amps, and the MM geared setup at 11 amps. I know,..the energy going in is roughly 1/3,...but,..the efficency is way up due to the larger prop and the geared setup,.. but the thrust and pitch speed which is what really counts,.. are real darn close.

GW

Originally posted by groundloop:
GW:
I was told that "No way, no how" was a prop much bigger than a 7" gonna fit on a Pondside. You telling me I might be able to run a GB and maybe 10" prop??

[Dereck]

Okay
I just measured ol' #3 - from the HH PS kit. From the Astro shaft to the decking, as the prop swings, would mean an 8" dia prop would miss by around 1/16".

Reckon you could do as GW suggests - I confess to never having bothered as the PS works pretty durn good as it comes out the box.

The one thing I would be careful with having a lot of thrust higher above the fuselage is a strong nosedown couple. I think the upthrust would need re-trimming, and the nose down pull on handlaunch could be very strong.

All of mine have pitched down noticeably when hand-launched overland, plus you sometimes can see this in the air - fly slow in level flight, then hit full power. The nose will pitch down slightly. If you open up slowly, the force set-up can handle it un-noticed.

It's nice to know that my Astro 035 matches Motocalc so well http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

GW - looking forward to hearing how it flies. If you could get the weight down that far, you could even be looking at a smaller motor still - Astro 05 brushless, on eight x 2000 nimh??? Fly for long enough on that lot! Maybe you could hit a compromise on gearing vs prop size, go for a 9" prop.

I often wondered how it would go with two 400's in a push/pull inline nacelle set up?

I can tell you that my PM # 2 didn't fly with the old Morley EDF unit that was peddled by Hobby Lobby around five years ago! Maybe it is time to look at the new EDF units, but not sure if they'd have the static thrust for water take - off.

Time to build another and mess with it some.

Dereck

[Mark Wood]

I was planning on using a Dymond 05 that I got from a friend running on 8x1800SCR or 8x3000 Nimh. Any one familiar with this motor? It was originally used in its geared configuration to fly a Crazzee but I think I'll run it DD for the Pondside. Opinions?

mw

[Daniel English]

I am still giving mine a nose job! I hope to have it going again in a week or so. I like the idea about two speed 400's, hmmmm....
Dan

[Daniel English]

Another PS idea, how about a mini PS, like a 280 or 400 size?
?
Dan

[Brad Trent]

Dan:
That idea has crossed my mind too, especially since the original PuddleMaster kit has the fuse on the plans drawn at 3/4 full kit size. With one of the Ace foam wings being almost exactly 3/4 of P.M. size, it looks like a speed 400 mini is very close to easy. Now you've got me thinking about it again -----
Brad.

[Joe Elston]

Hey Derrick, guess what I picked up a NIB Cermark 05 Cobalt 6 turn motor for my Super Puddle Master as I have now named it. I will let you know how the construction goes. How I will mount the floats so I install ailerons. I will keep all interested posted.
Joe

[kenair]

Hi Dereck
Sent you an email with the url with our pondmaster photos on it http://www.geocities.com/rcelectrics/page4.html
hope it reached you
ken

[Dereck]

Originally posted by groundloop:
I was planning on using a Dymond 05 that I got from a friend running on 8x1800SCR or 8x3000 Nimh. Any one familiar with this motor? It was originally used in its geared configuration to fly a Crazzee but I think I'll run it DD for the Pondside. Opinions?

mw


From flying my two Puddlemasters on S600s on mostly 7 & 8 - but it would ROW on six cells with patience - I'd say go for it. The model doesn't need a lot of power once airborne, and light weight seems to be the key to getting off the water quickly.

Cute little PM snippet. We had a guy in MD who converted one to an old Enya 11 squealer. He just glued a flat plat atop the motor pylons, mounted the squealer on the front and the gas tank on the back. Throttle servo was down in the hull with a long snake up to the engine.

This got off the water handily enough, and seemed to fly okay to me - we met a couple of times and had several flights at the same time.

He comes up to me at a meet and says "I wish mine flew as good as yours, it seems a lot easier to fly than mine".

Who says electric models can't impress glow fliers ?

Daniel, Brad - I thought of the 2/3rds Puddlemaster, thanks to the Ace plan. Never did anything beyond think either - so go for it! The Ace foam wing idea is great.

Joe - Velcro the floats on! I did that on my PMs. Sheet in the float bays underneath, cut a hole in the covering after sealing it down. Put a square of Velcro front and rear of the float top plate.

It'll hold - I hit the bank with mine once, it ripped the float pylon off the top plate, left the Velcro still zipped up. I'd used full length Velcro.

Regards

Dereck

[oded mazor]

GWRIGHT, I fly the PS with the MM DD with a 7x5 and 7 cells.
i just measured and there is a 1.4cm clearance (now, its your time to convert http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif ). i built mine exactly as per the instructions - so the motors pylons are the same as on the plan.
since you make such an effort to lower the PS weight you should know that i had to add some steel weight in the fuselage nose compartment to acheive the CG. so make sure you don't take off too much weight from only the front or back, or you'll have to add additional weight as well.

according to motocalc my set-up draws about 24 amp, giving 22.5 static thrust and going at 60mph. i never ever fly the PS for a long time at full throttle, its just not needed, most flights are spent at about half throtlle and you can still gain altitude. my batteries are 1700RC and 1400SCR and all my fligts lasts for at least 7 minutes. everytime, i'm surprised by the exellent half throttle flying performance. full throttle has a strong tendancy to pull up...
as for the geared application, i think that flying boats should have higher take off's speed than wheeled planes since they have to get "on top of the water", meaning the friction between the fuselage and the water should be minimize just before lift off and that could be best accomplished at high speeds !

groundloop, if the motor you are reffering to is the one from Andy's crazee review than it should even give better performance than the MM (at higher amps).

Dereck,
my PS actually pulls up at a sudden burst of power but that can be caused by the motor upward angle i placed (maybe too much...).

I wonder if hobby hangar knows all about the free publicity they're getting from you. you should be getting some percentage http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif


good luck everyone, oded.

[GWRIGHT]

I'll probably try it both direct and geared. I really want to use some of the 6-cell packs I have laying around, but if I have to,..I'll re-solder and make some 7 or 8 cell packs. I think an 8X6 might be the ticket for direct on 6 cells,.. I'll just have to plug in the wattmeter and try a bunch of props. I am paying attention to where I lighten. most of the wood I've removed or replaced is aft of the motor mount. Hobby Hanger is here in melbourne, about 5 minutes drive from where I work. when I picked up the pondside kit it was the only one he had. there was a stack of scout kits however. Apparently the free ads here are doing some good. Rich Uravitch who owns HH is very open to the idea of kitting more for electrics, as he really sees the popularity of electrics growing in the industry. He plans on kitting Nick Ziroli's little geared 280 size champ in the near future. We had a long talk and I tried to make it clear that there's a lot of speed-280/400 stuff out there, but not much available in the SP-600 class. I think he could do well with something like a very light sport plane for geared SP-600/MM on 8 to 10 cells,.. something like an X-250 on stearoids with a semi or fully symmetrical wing.
Oh, 1.4cm is .55 inches, so you could actually get away with one inch more prop in stock configuration, although you'd only have about .05 inches (1.27mm) clearance. I fly helicopters, and have designed some heli stuff in CAD (Bergen Intrepid control system, and his new straight-frame machine), so I'm waaay too familiar with metric to standard conversions <G>.
I like long flight times,.. so the geared idea is to get the same thrust, maybe a bit less pitch speed,.. but at 1/2 to 1/3 the amp draw. If I could get the performance I want with it geared, at say 12 to 15 amps versus 24 amps direct,.. that should give me over 12 minutes full throttle, which would probably be 18 to 20 minutes "normal" flying.

GW


Originally posted by oded mazor:
PS weight you should know that i had to add some steel weight in the fuselage nose compartment to acheive the CG. so make sure you don't take off too much weight from only the front or back, or you'll have to add additional weight as well.

according to motocalc my set-up draws about 24 amp, giving 22.5 static thrust and going at 60mph. i never ever fly the PS for a long time at full throttle, its just not needed, most flights are spent at about half throtlle and you can still gain altitude. my batteries are 1700RC and 1400SCR and all my fligts lasts for at least 7 minutes. everytime, i'm surprised by the exellent half throttle flying performance. full throttle has a strong tendancy to pull up...
as for the geared application, i think that flying boats should have higher take off's speed than wheeled planes since they have to get "on top of the water", meaning the friction between the fuselage and the water should be minimize just before lift off and that could be best accomplished at high speeds !

groundloop, if the motor you are reffering to is the one from Andy's crazee review than it should even give better performance than the MM (at higher amps).

Dereck,
my PS actually pulls up at a sudden burst of power but that can be caused by the motor upward angle i placed (maybe too much...).

I wonder if hobby hangar knows all about the free publicity they're getting from you. you should be getting some percentage http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif


good luck everyone, oded.

[Dereck]

Okay folks
It's not great art (maybe not even art at all!) but it's up!
http://weekendpilot.homestead.com/pondsides.html

Not bad for someone who still can't spell 'www' without a dictionary http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Right now, not all the shots I have. Have to get them to work as a lunchtime project - my home connection is usually too slow to really work on it and I can't even e-mail myself as our mailserver at work is not fully up yet.

So if you sent me photos, be patient and they will appear.

Shameless plug - go back from the above and check out the pages for our Spring Sizzle e-fly, Memorial weekend 2001. Two days, utterly comp free, from a suburban electric only site - come see what a flying club could look like in the not too distant future?

GW - I sent HH a message with the PPOC URL, but I know how often cottage industry folk get to read e-mail in this game. Next time you're over there, let them know what we're at with the PPOC. I might even have a design or so on the stocks that could interest them...

Regards

Dereck

[Dereck]

Hi GW
Looking at 35oz - pretty good, my current PS is at 40 oz on seven cells, and I think that is around 2 - 4 oz lighter than my PMs were. Any power reduction in going to 6 cells should be cancelled out by the weight drop allowing her to ride higher in the water, and you'll have plenty of power to fly on.

Your servos should be fine - my PMs flew on the old Futaba S133 micros and they were no powerhouses.

I'm currently setting up my fus jig to finish off the nose end of my Elelctric Scout. That taper is kinda fun to play with, wish I had stopped to thunk and made the fuselage just plain old parallel, but narrower than the plan shows.

I'm going to fit one of my Velkom 24 series motors, a tad heavy, but powerful and I have them. Probably the 2412, with an 8 x 5 or thereabouts. If it scoots decently, then comes the flat wing with ailerons.

Regards

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

I did the break-in of the forward rotation MM last night, also a new reverse timed motor. i spent a bit of time when I was home at lunch today, with a 6-cell pack, the wattmeter, tachometer, and a 10-cell pack of Radio shack hydrides that I use for my twin speed 400 cheap-ass stick. In addition to testing direct and geared on 6-cells,..I'm going to try the 10-cell hydride with the geared setup. with a 10-8 MA wood "E"-prop at 2.5 to one gearing and the RS 1600mah hydride pack, I'm getting a 14.8 amp draw. I use these packs with twin 7.2V 400's at 16 amps, and they work fine, so they should work well with the geared mayhem at a few less amps. the really interesting thing though,.. is that should get the flying weight under 30 ounces.hmmm. That's the same gear and prop I'll use with the 6-cell packs,.. so I guess I'll just have more options when I'm at the flying field. We have a small lake at our flying field, and a small retrieval boat that stays in our shed, as there is quite a bit of seaplane/floatplane flying that goes on in our club. the lake is a bit longer than our main runway which is 600' and it's about 200' wide. I should have built a plane for the lake before now,.. this is gonna be neat.

Originally posted by Dereck:
Hi GW
Looking at 35oz - pretty good, my current PS is at 40 oz on seven cells, and I think that is around 2 - 4 oz lighter than my PMs were. Any power reduction in going to 6 cells should be cancelled out by the weight drop allowing her to ride higher in the water, and you'll have plenty of power to fly on.

Your servos should be fine - my PMs flew on the old Futaba S133 micros and they were no powerhouses.

I'm currently setting up my fus jig to finish off the nose end of my Elelctric Scout. That taper is kinda fun to play with, wish I had stopped to thunk and made the fuselage just plain old parallel, but narrower than the plan shows.

I'm going to fit one of my Velkom 24 series motors, a tad heavy, but powerful and I have them. Probably the 2412, with an 8 x 5 or thereabouts. If it scoots decently, then comes the flat wing with ailerons.

Regards

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

update:
I got the wing and tip floats built last night,.. so the entire airplane is framed up. After weighing the stack of ribs (22grams) and the trailing edge sheeting (4 grams), I didn't see any reason to cut any holes. I did substitute other wood for the tip floats, as the stuff they gave me must have come from one of those rare balsa trees that was cross-bread with a maple. All sheeting on fuse and tip floats was of course replaced with contest grade balsa (4-6lb stock) except for the bottom of the hull. the entire airframe with the outer snakes installed registers 267grams (roughly 9.5 ounces) on my scale. Tonight I will do the sanding and hope to get 1/2 ounce off. Hitec 555 without case (but in plastic bag), ESC, and two FMA S-90 servos (should be plenty according to the multiplex servo load calculator) weigh in at a tad over an ounce and half. Add in covering weight and control horns, etc. (all the stuff you forget about weighing <G>), and it looks like I could come in around the 13~14 oz. mark. The mayhem/gearbox/prop is around 9 ounces if memory serves, so it looks like optimistically, 22~23 ounces without battery is achievable. my 6-cell packs, (1700,2000, and 3000's) are all roughly 12 ounces. I'm getting very optimistic about this thing flying on 6 cells now!
I'll try to remember to take some pictures tonight after the sanding session. The fuselage/hull looks more like a piece of swiss cheese than an airplane, but liberal twisting and tugging show that it should be more than strong enough.

GW

[GWRIGHT]

I planned on sanding then covering last night, but some "honey-do's" got in the way and i only got a couple hours to work on it. I did get everything sanded, servos mounted, and ready to cover. I put a couple pictures up to show all the balsa that I replaced with air <G>. I also put a picture out there of my electrified Hobbico viper and one of my twin cheap-ass stick with two 7.2V speed 400's and gear drives.
http://www.rcplanet.com/gw/electrics/

GW

[Dereck]

Last mod on mine (following an overland test flight where the trim must have moved to nosedown somehow http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/eek.gif ) - a more logical battery tray.

In the kit, its a piece of Liteply, with a big hole at one end to mount servos in. This keys into the formers either end of the wing hole.

If you touch down on land too hard, this tray cracks at the hole.

What I ended up with was two pieces of 1/8 x 3/8" spruce or bass (pedigree unknown, found in box under bench http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif) running between holes cut in the two fuselage formers. These strips are on edge, and poke through the formers maybe an 1/8" at each end.

1/16" hard balsa, grain across the fuselage, is glued to these rails. Only use enough to Velcro the packs down to.

Not too heavy, much better looking mechanically than the kit.

Still prefer the PM with that solid piece of balsa making up the step and the battery resting on that though.

Regards

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

All the holes were made on my drill press with a Forstener bit. I have "hole-saws" also (like used to put door handles in doors), but they tend to chip balsa and make very ugle holes. I set the drill press to put the forstener bits 1/2 way through the material and went about drilling. There is a small pilot hole tip in the center of the forstener bits, so you get a small hole all the way through. I then flipped the piece over, and lined up the bit on that pilot hole, going 1/2 way through the other side. This makes very very clean holes and I probably only spent an hour (a little less I think) doing all of them in the whole plane (89 holes in all, if you count all the internal formers).I did use some normal drill bits for smaller holes in the liteply formers. As for the battery try,.. I use a simple tray of liteply just like this in the viper. It has even larger holes in it, with just enough liteply left for the velcro. I run 10-cell packs of 3000nimh in that plane, and haven't had a problem supporting them.

GW
Originally posted by Tram:
Wow.. does look like someone took pot shots with a shot gun...

Are these holes done with a drill with a "hole making attachment?" (never took woodshop dunno what that would be called)?

[Daniel English]

Since this is the official club thread, what do you guys think of this idea:
My PS broke forward of F2 after the crash. I cut the nose off fore of this and it is no cleaned upi and fixed except that there is nothing infront of F2. How does a Fiberglass nose sound? Might be stronger for landing on snow. Or foam for ding resistance? Just a though, but I'll probably just build it balsa again. BTW it also cracked along the rear of the fuse, but I just glued it back together with wood glue. I will probably reinforce it more though and smooth it out with home made filler if needed.
Comments?
Dan

[Dr. Jet]

Wow! That is a lot of (quality) work. I flew my original PM with a Futaba MC-4A Rx/ESC on 7 cells (1700 mah) with a Graupner Speed 500 ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQSSTUVWXYZ1234567890 motor (Hobby-Lobby part #3305, a "hot" car-sized motor) on a 7x5 prop. This was before I received my "Doctorate" in electric flight and I may have just been lucky. The thing flew GREAT at 48 ounces, and was one of my favorite airplanes. I can kick myself for selling it for a pittance. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/frown.gif If only I had the time to build balsa airplanes again (too many jets in the works), I would build another PS (wanna trade a slightly used F-16 for a PS?). I just won an Aveox 1010/2Y at the club banquet. This is the "new" captured magnet version with a Kv of 2560 rpm/volt. Not enough for EDF with 12 cells, but it would make a GREAT PS motor.

Damn, now you got me thinking.............

[This message has been edited by Dr. Jet (edited 12-06-2000).]

[Dereck]

Hi Doc
Not surprised really - my first two PMs flew fine on an assortment of 6 to 8 cells, of uncertain capacity and pedigree. ESC was a Futaba frame rate monster, motor I seem to remember was a Speed 600 8.4V BB Turbo, and the inevitable APC 7 x 5-ish prop (if the PPOC ever gets a badge, it'll probably have crossed APC 7" props in the background).

I once played at snoaring and flew it around for nearly 11 minutes from a handlaunch.

Daniel - stick a lump of foam on your nose (cheeky http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif), sand it to shape and glass it.

I'm thinking of cracking into modern technology and glassing my bottom, if you catch my drift. It does take a pounding doing bounce and goes off grass.

Now, this brushless / geared thing. I wonder if (A) The AF020G and controller combo is waterproof or (B) An Aveox could be mated to a useful gearbox (one you can swap ratios on) and have the ESC mounted down in the fuselage. Maybe one of those Kontronic brushless jobbers with a sensorless could stand the long lengths of electric string?

GW's structure shot is up on my pages - www.weekendpilot.homestead.com (http://www.weekendpilot.homestead.com)

Regards

Dereck

[oded mazor]

GWRIGHT, looks like someone shot your pondside with a shotgun http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif
seems like its going to be very lite. make sure that your battery tray is strong enough for that pack lying on top, other than that - looks great !

oded.

[Tram]

Wow.. does look like someone took pot shots with a shot gun...

Are these holes done with a drill with a "hole making attachment?" (never took woodshop dunno what that would be called)?

[Daniel English]

How much heavier do you thinkit would be with a "glass" nose?
Thanks
Dan

[Bob Chiang]

In response to Daniel English and Brad Trent regarding a 3/4 sized speed 400 puddlemaster, check out this web page for someone else who has already built one:
http://www.capable.on.ca/puddle.htm

[GWRIGHT]

The only thing left to do is install the two pushrods and control horns, and wire the motor. I used Ultracote "lite", as it's less than half the weight of monokote and I really like the stuff. Goes on real well, goes around "curves" (wingtips and such) really well, better than moneykote. My only mistake is getting "transparent white" for the fuse. At firstI thought it looked hideous, but now I've upgraded that to just "ugly". It looks sort of like white tissue put on with a couple coats of dope. It's growing on me though. weight at the moment is 22.5 ounces, so pushrods and motor wire should still keep it under 24. that would make it 36 with the 6 cell pack. I don't know where the weight came from,.. I figured I would be more than 4 ounces lighter than with monokote and no holes. thinking about it now,.. I've got an 8 ounce motor versus your 6 ounce 035. I've also got an ounce and a quarter of gearbox on top,.. so apples to apples comparison with yours ,..would be 33 versus 40 ounces. hmm,.. guess that's not bad.
i posted two more pictures, one sitting by the pool, and one in the pool,...YEAH, IT FLOATS <G> http://www.rcplanet.com/gw/electrics

[Dereck]

Hi GW
Guess at this point, you go commit aviation, and tell us all what happened!

See-through aircraft always look dodgy to me - a boat with holes in the hull - doubly so http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Shame you live down there, I could bring mine over to your lake and we'd see what the score is direct vs geared easy enough.

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

got plans this evening,..tommorrow evening, golf saturday morning,.. then maybe the flying field saturday afternoon. Should be able to report back this weekend. I'll get some butane for my portable soldering iron so I can swap direct versus geared at the field.

Originally posted by Dereck:
Hi GW
Guess at this point, you go commit aviation, and tell us all what happened!

See-through aircraft always look dodgy to me - a boat with holes in the hull - doubly so http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Shame you live down there, I could bring mine over to your lake and we'd see what the score is direct vs geared easy enough.

Dereck

[Dereck]

Bob - TVM. Link added to Stefan's place from the PPOC

Dereck

[Joe Powel]

Would anyone care to share their MotoCalc STOCK Pondside coefficients (Cd, Cl, Clmax) and how their numbers were arrived at? (direct measurements entered in the MC 'Wing Airfoil Measurements' window, someone else, etc.? I don't have my kit yet and would like to start fussing about in MotoCalc.

Thanks, Joe Powel

[Daniel English]

Still cant decide about the nose, you think you could put a camera in a pondside? How much do you think an astro 035 on six 2000 mah cells could weigh and still ROW?
Dan

[Dereck]

Originally posted by Joe Powel:
Would anyone care to share their MotoCalc STOCK Pondside coefficients (Cd, Cl, Clmax) and how their numbers were arrived at? (direct measurements entered in the MC 'Wing Airfoil Measurements' window, someone else, etc.? I don't have my kit yet and would like to start fussing about in MotoCalc.

Thanks, Joe Powel

I didn't even know a Pondside had coefficients http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif AF035/7 x 1700-2400/APC7x4 or MM / 8 x 1700-2400 / 7 x 5 APC. Either = efficient. Would love to know what *calc thinks my PS has flown like this year http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Dan - how heavy is your picture box? I've heard rumours of a 48oz PS leaving the water, but it sounds a lot for a six pack to pull off.

How's about a waterproof one-shot camera mounted on the wing aft of the motor pylons? Servo under the wing, with a cable rig to release the shutter. Have to dip the wing to take shots of the ground though.

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

Plans changed this morning and I had about one hour to go to the flying field, and the only packs I had charged were a couple old 8 cell 1700's. With the 2 "extra" cells the MM and 2.5 gear 10X8 MA "E" prop was pulling 20 amps statically for a whopping 160 watts. First was a handlaunch, without enough throttle(only had about 1/4 power on, that was stupid) which caused a quick touch and go on terra firma, cracking the rudder. I fixed that, threw it at full power next time, and she went out level for about 10 feet, then I had a nice climb angle of 30~40 degrees. It would climb even steeper, but the rate of climb was less at the higher angle. Next was water trials. Should have done that first. She gets off the water in about 20 feet. She jumps on step almost immediately when the throttle is opened, skips about 15~20 feet, and up, up, and away. loops are OK, spins and snaps are real good , rolls are rather slow. I need to move the CG back, as it turned out a bit noseheavy. It will cruise at VERY low power. I made a mental note of throttle stick position at cruise, landed, and checked with the wattmeter,... 60 watts is cruise, and it will slightly climb at that setting. I had a transmitter timer set at 9 minutes (then it starts counting up again, after the beeps), and I landed at just over the +1 minute mark each of the two flights, so with the 1700's I was getting 10 minutes. If it will ROW with the 6 cell 3000's (which I think it will), I should get close to 20 minute flight times with the geared setup. Next experiment is 6 cells on the geared setup,.. after that I'll try direct drive.


Originally posted by Dereck:
Hi GW
Guess at this point, you go commit aviation, and tell us all what happened!

See-through aircraft always look dodgy to me - a boat with holes in the hull - doubly so http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Shame you live down there, I could bring mine over to your lake and we'd see what the score is direct vs geared easy enough.

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

Flew more on 8 cells yesterday, then tried 6 cells. Handlaunch on 6 cells went fine, but climb performance was way down. It only pulls 12 amps on full song with 6 cells, wattmeter showing all of 90 watts fresh off of the charger, decaying to 83 watts after a minute or so (yes it flies at that, but not real "spectacular"). i did manage to get it off water with 6 cells, but it takes a lot of patience. I can't go past 10" on prop size, as I only have roughly 1/4" clearance, so I'm going to try a 10X10 to get the amp draw/power up a bit. 12 amps on a 6 pack of 3000 hydrides gives ridiculously long flights,.. was up a shade over 21 minutes on one flight (takes about 80% throttle to cruise with 6 cells), but I preferred the 8-cell 9~10 minute flights on the 1700's due to the performance level. If the 10X10 on the 6 pack doesn't do the trick,.. I'll have to rearrange all the 6-packs I have into 8-cell packs. I did have a slight problem on a landing, getting some water in under the wing(we had 15mph winds gusting to 22 yesterday), and apparently damaging the ESC, so I gotta pick up another speed control this week. I'm using the great pains 30 amp ESC's in 3 ships and they've worked fine till this one got "moist". the BEC works, radio control is fine, but the ESC wont "set" and run the motor. After letting it dry out with the hatch off and everything in the sun, it will "set" and run the motor about 1 time out of 10. any clues as to if it's repairable? It's only a $39 speed control, so no big loss anyway, but if it can be repaired for less $, it might be worth it, but I digress,... Next will be the 10X10 on 6 jugs,.. then direct drive trials on 6. After seeing my pondside fly yesterday, we have 2 more guys in the flub that are going to pick up kits this week. Wonder if I should ask for a commision? <G>


Originally posted by GWRIGHT:
Plans changed this morning and I had about one hour to go to the flying field, and the only packs I had charged were a couple old 8 cell 1700's. With the 2 "extra" cells the MM and 2.5 gear 10X8 MA "E" prop was pulling 20 amps statically for a whopping 160 watts. First was a handlaunch, without enough throttle(only had about 1/4 power on, that was stupid) which caused a quick touch and go on terra firma, cracking the rudder. I fixed that, threw it at full power next time, and she went out level for about 10 feet, then I had a nice climb angle of 30~40 degrees. It would climb even steeper, but the rate of climb was less at the higher angle. Next was water trials. Should have done that first. She gets off the water in about 20 feet. She jumps on step almost immediately when the throttle is opened, skips about 15~20 feet, and up, up, and away. loops are OK, spins and snaps are real good , rolls are rather slow. I need to move the CG back, as it turned out a bit noseheavy. It will cruise at VERY low power. I made a mental note of throttle stick position at cruise, landed, and checked with the wattmeter,... 60 watts is cruise, and it will slightly climb at that setting. I had a transmitter timer set at 9 minutes (then it starts counting up again, after the beeps), and I landed at just over the +1 minute mark each of the two flights, so with the 1700's I was getting 10 minutes. If it will ROW with the 6 cell 3000's (which I think it will), I should get close to 20 minute flight times with the geared setup. Next experiment is 6 cells on the geared setup,.. after that I'll try direct drive.

[Dereck]

Dan
Knowing what I do about GF ( http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif), it couldn't add more than an ounce or so. The nose only gets to be a problem if you drive it into the bank or rocks thereabouts. The bit that suffers badly is the bottom of the hull from landing on that hard stuff that surrounds water http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

The bottom either side of the former under the LE takes quite a beating, especially if you insist on practising touch and goes on hard ground.

Having once replaced much of a nose - my PM/PS fleet lead hard lives - I would use foam if I had to do it again. Saw the bent wood off at a handy former, make up a foam block and sand it to shape. Glassing would then be a good way to go.

However you repair it, keep it light. Take off success depends on it floating at the correct depth in the water. Too heavy, and while it might be fine to fly, it will never get up on step to have a chance to prove it.

Anyone ever contemplated a biplane PS variant?

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

I "found" some pinion gears at the hobby shop yesterday,.. so I can now go lower than 2.5 for the 6-cell setup. I tried 2.1 and 1.84 last night. It was too dark to tach the prop,..but at 2.1 (actually 2.09 to 1) it was making 120 watts. since the weight is down to 35 ounces with 6 cells, this might just do it. If not,.. I can change pinions and go down to 1.84. Of course, with the ratios this low, I'm probably losing most of the efficiency the gearbox allows,.. but if I can get the performance at 20 amps or less I think it's still better than a 26~30 amp direct setup. After drying out completely, the ESC seems to work fine again. However, I did order some ESC's from Kirk this morning. I need one for the scout I'm about to build, and I want to keep a couple "in stock". Snce I'm running others 30 amps and 10 cells, and using 4 servos,..he talked me into the griffin's rather than the pegasus ESC's I planned on. anyone using the CC Griffin's? Kirk said they have dual BEC regulators,..so that would be better at the higher servo count.


Originally posted by Dereck:
Dan
Knowing what I do about GF ( http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif), it couldn't add more than an ounce or so. The nose only gets to be a problem if you drive it into the bank or rocks thereabouts. The bit that suffers badly is the bottom of the hull from landing on that hard stuff that surrounds water http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif

The bottom either side of the former under the LE takes quite a beating, especially if you insist on practising touch and goes on hard ground.

Having once replaced much of a nose - my PM/PS fleet lead hard lives - I would use foam if I had to do it again. Saw the bent wood off at a handy former, make up a foam block and sand it to shape. Glassing would then be a good way to go.

However you repair it, keep it light. Take off success depends on it floating at the correct depth in the water. Too heavy, and while it might be fine to fly, it will never get up on step to have a chance to prove it.

Anyone ever contemplated a biplane PS variant?

Dereck

[Dereck]

Originally posted by GWRIGHT:
I "found" some pinion gears at the hobby shop yesterday,.. so I can now go lower than 2.5 for the 6-cell setup. I tried 2.1 and 1.84 last night. It was too dark to tach the prop,..but at 2.1 (actually 2.09 to 1) it was making 120 watts. since the weight is down to 35 ounces with 6 cells, this might just do it. If not,.. I can change pinions and go down to 1.84. Of course, with the ratios this low, I'm probably losing most of the efficiency the gearbox allows,..


Hopefully, you can find a fortune teller with a full client load - a Happy Medium http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif.

Gearbox thought - Great Planes' new 'box allows set-screw fixed pinions to be field-swapped. If they use the same pitch as the car guys - sounds a lot like what GW found - that would allow fast gear ratio tuning.

Must get another GP box, lash it to a MM reverse (If Tower ever get some in) and see how it copes with 10 cells / 300 watts.

I did a quick doodle of the side view of the PS Bipe - on www.weekendpilot.homestead.com (http://www.weekendpilot.homestead.com) and hence to the PPOC pages. Absolutely not to scale!

Regards

Dereck

[GWRIGHT]

This is a Great Planes gearbox I'm using. the spur gear is 46 teeth and they are 48 pitch which is the popular pitch for car gears now,..so car pinions can be used. the stock ratios are published as 2.5/3.0/3.8 using pinions 12,15,18 (actually, the ratios are 2.55/3.06/3.83). Pinions are available for cars from 11 to 30,.. and then leisure has a 10 tooth, of which I have a couple, so you can essentially go from 4.6 down to 1.53 using car pinions. of the gearboxes I've used,.. MA, Leisure, Great Pains,.. I like the GP one the best,.. it's more robust and rigid. It also is the lowest cost, at $14! I bought 4 of them, along with 4 each of the pinions they sell.
The MM will tolerate 300 watts on 10 cells just fine. Although I'm drawing a tad under 30 amps on ten cells (in my viper), the voltage is above 1 per cell,.. and the wattmeter shows from 320 amps to 330 amps depending on which pack I have in it (strange how several "identical" battery packs perform differently). i just replaced brushes in that motor, and it's had well over 100 flights in this plane, and probably about that many in another plane. i saw where tower/great pains is out of MM rev. motors again. I'm flying two, have two new ones sitting here, plus a normal rotation one that's new. The ones I'm using are working so well,..I put another 4 on backorder. At that price, I figured why not "stock" some of them in my shop.

GW


Originally posted by Dereck:
Hopefully, you can find a fortune teller with a full client load - a Happy Medium http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif.

Gearbox thought - Great Planes' new 'box allows set-screw fixed pinions to be field-swapped. If they use the same pitch as the car guys - sounds a lot like what GW found - that would allow fast gear ratio tuning.

Must get another GP box, lash it to a MM reverse (If Tower ever get some in) and see how it copes with 10 cells / 300 watts.

I did a quick doodle of the side view of the PS Bipe - on www.weekendpilot.homestead.com (http://www.weekendpilot.homestead.com) and hence to the PPOC pages. Absolutely not to scale!

Regards

Dereck

[Joe Elston]

HI Dereck Got my Cermark 05 Cobalt this weekend and am about ready to start building the PM. I will keep you guy's updated on how it goe's.
Joe

[Dereck]

Hi Joe
So, we got one with gears working good and you're going to do one with hi-end power. Shame we can't get them all together and shoot splash and goes until the juice runs out (don't I just love deeply scientific testing http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif? ). A day of that and we'd have to go to the pub to talk over a great day and forget what the results were.

Not much chance for me right now. The latest weather forecast around the Disaster of Columbia is that any water coming down will be B. cold and in lumps. The next few days will not be fun. DC area drivers are not that good in rain, snow, ice, fog, dark, bad cellphone reception areas, areas without Starbucks, etc. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Dereck

Dereck

[Joe Powel]

Does anyone have any experience with Scott Hartman's 54" Super PuddleMaster? In his June/July S&E Modeler article he states "The wing of Super PuddleMaster is modified to better suit the heavier 10-12-cell power pack." Is the wing the only modification? Do we have two wings available for the
Pondside?

Joe Powel

[Dereck]

Joe
I'd have to see if I still have that mag to be sure, but am pretty certain it is a bigger model all round.

The Ace RC Puddlemaster kit wing had a one piece deep spar made from two pieces of 1/4 x 1/8 spruce with a full depth 1/4" balsa web. This lot was around 80% of the depth of the rib and was let into slot from the bottom of the ribs. While it worked fine,the wing did tend to flex up a little if you held the tips and bounced the body up and down some.

The Pondside uses surface mounted spars with 1/16 webbing and is a lot stiffer in bending.

Have to class the S&EM ten cell version as "Super Large Scale". You could build one and take it to a big model meet, claim it was eligible as it is actually bigger than the prototype http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Regards

Dereck

[Dereck]

Hi Joe
You got me on that one, but it sounds like it could be close to a PM. The name sounds too much like something the Chinese would use for a BARF version http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif Joe Beshar sure knows enough about designing not to plagiarize completely.

One problem is, you define a model to do what Scott's PM/PS does, it will probably come out looking the same. Even if you added a "V" hull, dolled up the motor mount, added a semiscale cabin/cokpit and a whole bunch of other doo-daahs, chances are you would be close to a tarted up PM/PS.

The hull step is going to be there - its related to the CG. The hull volume is there to hold the thing up in the water - you can't change that. Aerodynamics are going to apply much the same too. If you can figure out what else to do with a single motor, go ahead. GW's geared rig is about the most adventurous thing I've seen on a PM/PS single motor variant.

Add to that, Scott's is one pretty light structure that works well right out the kit box. Having built three like that, I feel that is a fairly defensible statement http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif. The main attraction is that I can build one fast, and know it is reliable enough to give me a great time on the rare occasions I can get her bottom wet.

If I had the water access - A PM/PS something the size of a Kadet with two or three motors would be neat. Two would do it, four would be great, but three is different! Imagine taxying out on just the centre motor, or using the two outers for water steering with the centre one "deadstick"?


Maybe a PS with 3 x 400 on direct?

Regards

Dereck

[Joe Powel]

Thanks, Dereck

Speaking of multiple motors....I can't find anything on the HL Catalina. I've been in love with that homely looking boat ever since I played in one at the airport junkyard when I was a kid. I guess I never grew up! Will it handle any better than the HL Albatross?

Joe Powel

[Joe Elston]

Well Derrick my new Cermark Cobalt is now timed for direct drive. I have the servo and RX. I have one 7 cell 1700 SCR pack and will aquire a couple of 8 cel 2000-2400. So there is not much holding me back on building the Super PM cept a zillion other projects. I will share photos as soon as I start.
Joe

[Joe Powel]

Dereck,

How about Joe Beshar's "Master Puddle?" Know anything about that? In the Feb., '94 issue of 'Model Aviation' he says "I learned of the Ace R/C Electric-powered Puddle Master---a very fine model kit that is well designed, and very complete. Further interest in Electric models resulted in the inspiration for the Master Puddle: a Besharized creation." I believe Beshar's version is available as MA plan #752. Has anyone out there built this aircraft? How does it compare to the HH Pondside?

Joe Powel

[Dereck]

Hi Folks
The cause of the PPOC (Puddlemaster/Pondside Owners Club) has moved on some more, as GW tests out the first geared PS in captivity.

Also, check out some great photos of Israel's only electric flying boat!
Not to mention the best place to spend Memorial Weekend in the Mid-Atlantic - the "Spring Sizzle". Two days of comp-free electric funfly.
www.weekendpilot.homestead.com (http://www.weekendpilot.homestead.com)

Regards
Dereck

[Dereck]

Hi Joe
With the high thrustline, there is a tendency to nose over on applying power. Makes early handlaunches a little too much fun at times, until you get the hang of it!

Too little upthrust and the model will tend to dive under power - the opposite of flying something like a high wing OT with no downthrust. Not sure about too much upthrust, though suspect it could eventually pull the nose up on power.

It is worth tinkering with once you've flown the model some. They have slightly different handling to what most will be used to - the configuration is somewhat different to the norm.

Regards

Dereck

[Joe Powel]

Has anyone experimented with the motor thrust angle? The designer seemed to think that one degree was ok, but both Hobby Hanger (in the furnished instructions) and Dereck (in his review) suggest 2 degrees. What is the effect of too little or too much?
Thanks.
Joe Powel

[Joe Powel]

Thanks, Dereck


I was trying to pin down the exact thrust angle so that I could avoid the bolts and shims up top. Scott Hartman was very clear in his 'Super Puddlemaster' plans, showing a 2 degree up thrust. Hobby Hanger's plans show only a 1 degree tilt and then they suggest 2 degrees as you did. One Pondside builder on this forum even suggested 4 degrees! No one has posted any hard trial and error data. I'll take your word for it and glue it together a two.
Thanks for your quick response, Dereck.
Joe Powel

[Dereck]

Originally posted by Joe Powel:
Thanks, Dereck


I was trying to pin down the exact thrust angle so that I could avoid the bolts and shims up top. Scott Hartman was very clear in his 'Super Puddlemaster' plans, showing a 2 degree up thrust. Hobby Hanger's plans show only a 1 degree tilt and then they suggest 2 degrees as you did. One Pondside builder on this forum even suggested 4 degrees! No one has posted any hard trial and error data. I'll take your word for it and glue it together a two.
Thanks for your quick response, Dereck.
Joe Powel

Hi Joe
Well, I thought - why not just measure mine?

Ended up with several rules, two different protractors, the PS, with and without all sorts of props.

You don't want to know - be easier to have measured the angle of incidence of next door's cat http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

All I can say with certainty is that if I had just built it like HH said, I wouldn't have packing under the bottom of my motor!

Regards

Dereck

[J Bergsmith]

Ok Derrick I just purchased a Pondside, ready for some Maryland formation flying?

[Dereck]

John - get building My record is 13 days from buying kit to a float fly, and that was a PM not a lasered PS! What you nailing to the masthead?

AOA of the cat - observing local felines, it seems to vary depending on proximity to my Boxer dog. It has decreased as Lizzie has aged though - she's now 10. When I had Denny, my last male Boxer, cats frequently exceeded 90 degrees AOA for almost true VERTOL performance up any vertical surface.

So did a large German Shepherd once. The Air Force cop fastened to the Shepherd said he never realised a 150lb Shep could climb a tree. Denny had that effect on other animals.

PPC - don't worry about it, a little heavy wood on the bottom will fare better slapping down on grass, especially rocky grass like Mt. T.(MD).

Regards

Dereck

[ppc]

I have been working on my Pondside, I made a mistake and I ended up using some very hard balsa for the bottom sheeting from the "bow" to about 4" aft of the step. I think it adds a lot of weight. I think I should sand it down, any suggestions/confirmations?

[newguy]

Just to satisfy my curiosity, what IS the measured incidence of the cat? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif Jim

[Joe Powel]

Dereck,

I managed to measure part of the neighbor's cat! I layed down masking tape on the side of the fuse where I expected to put pencil marks. I then used a flexible ruler lined up with the stab saddle to draw the reference under the wing saddle. I then took two flexible plastic rulers, taped them together at one end so that they could not move relative to each other, lined up one on the inside against former #3 and used the other on the outside to draw a line across the reference. When I measured the drawn angle with a protractor, I discoverd that former #3 with its motor pylons is actually 90 degrees from horozontal. The drawings lie! The pylons do not rake back at 1 degree as shown on the drawings! Scott Hartman's Super Puddlemaster drawings definately show a 2 degree + tilt backwards. I ended up sanding a 2 degree bevel off the top of the pylons and screwing on the motor plate in case I have to change it. Its unfortunate that Hobby Hanger couldn't have gotten such a critical angle correct instead of asking the builder to use the abominable shims!

Joe Powel


[This message has been edited by Joe Powel (edited 03-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Joe Powel (edited 03-06-2001).]

[J Bergsmith]

Derrick,
I think I will be copying your set-up. I have a brand new Astro 035 that is ready for action. I will use small servos to try to keep it light. I think I will do a Coast Guard color scheme.

-JB

[This message has been edited by J Bergsmith (edited 03-06-2001).]

[Dereck]

Joe - there's something that doesn't actually surprise me http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif Can't rightly say about the PM drawings, I tossed mine out when the PS was released.

Jon - won't we make a pair. Mine's in generic US blue fus / yellow wings trainer. with stars on the wings.

Resisted all temptation to do it "Red Arrows" http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif.

I've been real happy with the AF035 set up, though the liteply nicad tray tended to crack on ground landings. Lose the one in the kit with that big hole in it - you land, the battery cracks the tray at the hole edges, and gluing the piece into the hole doesn't help.

I ended up with two 1/4 x 1/8" spruce rails between F3 and F4, set a little wider than a nicad pack, and a 1/16" Birch ply tray sitting on it with the nicad velcro'd to the tray.

It's not a good idea to let the nicad get to the PS fuselage bottom, though the Puddlemaster did so with a much different arrangement.

Regards

Dereck

[Joe Powel]

Dereck,
You said in your Pondside review that you used an APC 7X4 Sport Prop. The only APC 7X4 prop that is currently listed is a "15 FREE FLIGHT". Their 7X5 is listed as a "Sport Prop". Master Airscrew, on the other hand, lists both a 7X4 and a 7X5 in both a G/F series and a Scimitar series. I'm ready to prop out my new Pondside but I'm a little confused as to the best selection. (Power is a speed 600 on an 8 cell SR1300 Max pack). Your wisdom on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Joe Powel



[This message has been edited by Joe Powel (edited 03-10-2001).]

[Daniel English]

I too use an APC 7x4 sport prop and I got mine from www.hobbypeople.net. (http://www.hobbypeople.net.)
Have Fun!
Dan

[Dereck]

Joe
I've had this prop for a long while, so maybe they have gone out of production (long prop life is one benefit of having the motor up on a pole like that!).

Recently I have tried the new APC-E 7 x 5, it upped the current draw a little but not excessively and performed well in the 'boat. Other makes may work well, if you can't find the APC 7 x 4 or the 7 x 5 is too much prop for your set-up, try the 7 x 4 types you have.

Can't rightly say, 'cos I haven't used much besides APC for a long while. Those grey Graupners used to be real good (until APC showed up http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif) and I've had a fixed blade "Aeronaut" on the Embat since I built it, with good results.

Let us know how you get on. The Astro 035 on my PS keeps suggesting that if I buy her a gearbox, she'd look real good on the other wing of a twin from my 035G.

Dereck

[J Bergsmith]

Started wing construction last night. Very easy. Neat design, easy to build, cheap, and it's not an arf. What else could you ask for in a model? I just finished a Protor Antic, after building that anything looks easy.

[Dereck]

Hi John
What do you do in your spare time?

You've got until next Saturday to get it built and tested - 12 May is the Howard County / Freestate club floatfly at Centennial park in Columbia.

If you overland testfly, leave the floats off - they snag grass real good http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/eek.gif

What you fitting for motive power?

Dereck

[J Bergsmith]

I don't think I will have it done by then. I'm going to use you Astro 035 set-up. I thought I had one already but I don't. Which 035 do you have, fai or not, what turn?

[Dereck]

Hi John
Mine's got the regular Cobalt / Sports wind, you don't really want the FAI in a PS - zoom climbs to a zillion feet are not in its envelope http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

If you can finish the model in time, they'll fly on all sorts - check out Oded Mazor's postings about his on a MM normal rotation and 8 cells. If you're stuck, I think I have a MM normal someplace, even have some 8 x 1700 packs that would work fine.

Can't finish it - get busy! I test flew my Mouse at 10PM the night before the last NBM, when I though it wouldn't get flown until 1:00AM. Plus, every one of these floatyboats I've had flew straight off the board. If they do that with my building, you should do fine.

There's only two meets at that park in a year, can't risk missing one of them. I'll give you a ride there, you can sit in the back and fit the radio if we have to http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

Dereck

[DaveW]

Hi Gang,
For what its worth, I have a 6 yr old PM, with most of the dihedral removed, ailierons, and bolt on landing gear with steerable nosewheel for land flying. ( nose piece comes off to allow removal of nose gear) Astro 05 cobalt on 7 1700's, APC 7-4, Astro ESC. Weighs 50oz with lg on about 47 without. Flys fine at this weight, will loop from level flight as many times as you want, rolls etc. but trying to fly inverted with that flat bottom airfoil is a trip. It won't, it wallows and staggers and finally just gives up and falls out of it!
Best thing it does is water touch and goes!
Dave

[Dereck]

Hi Dave
Good info! From what you say, it will ROW fine at that weight.

I've often wondered about the highest take off weight a PS/PM could stand - the heavier it gets, the lower it will float and the harder the time getting up on step.

Have seen one so "improved" that it wouldn't even get on step, just howled around in a cloud of spray, not going very fast. At least it wasn't going to crash, though sinking looked a possibility http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

The idea of UC had crossed my mind, but I don't fly it overland much and they work well right out the box so have never bothered. Concur on the inverted, have got mine there a few times early on, and stopped doing it soon after ...

Regards

Dereck

[J Bergsmith]

Wing is complete! I will never make it by next weekend.

[Dereck]

Of cause you will! Heck, you just built a Proctor Antic in under five years! Get to it, see you next Saturday crack o'sparrows.

Put Astro connectors on, we can trade packs if stuck. Could always run by Mt T around 6AM, test fly, then over to the Floatfly http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Dereck

[Looooeeee!]

Hi

Does anyone remember the Corky II by Ted Strader. It was .049 powered and I think it was in a late 70's RCM. It kind of looks like the puddlemaster owes some of it's design to this plane. Are they related?, has any one electrified the Corky, as I've got a copy of the plans and would like to build this sweet little plane for speed 400.

Looee

[newguy]

Hi everyone. The first RC plane I ever flew was a Puddlemaster. I am building another one, and wanted to ask the "voices of experience" about power setups. What works for this plane, and what do you like and why? Thanks in advance, Jim

[newguy]

Still looking for advice! Jim

[J Bergsmith]

Newguy, if you look through this thread it gives you various power set-ups people have used. I am going to use the Astro 035 direct drive set-up.

[Dereck]

Looee
One thing you have to watch with electrocuting the baby floatyboats is that the higher weight makes them sit too far down in the wate. End result - while they could well fly okay off a hand launch, that low sit in the water means the low power available can't push the hull out the water far enough to get on step and take off.

There was an article on modifying the Aquastar for e-power in a recetn Flying Models mag. Rather than just bolt in the electrics, the writer actually widened the hull a fair amount to increase the hull volume. That made it sit in the water where it should and fly off the surface easier.

As to smaller PM/PS lookalikes - if you use a workable hull profile with a flat bottom, and have to put the prop out the water a ways in simple fashion, a model will inevitably end up looking like a PM/PS. The model is about the simplest solution to the problem going.

Try analysing how to make the current Pondside lighter without compromising strength. It's hard to do, believe me. I just build them straight out the box!

The idea of a "S400 Tri-motor" keeps cropping up though.

For 'newguy' - have to say that my present drivetrain of an Astro 035 cobalt, APC 7 x4 or 5, 7 x 1700 nicad would only be bettered by using 2400 nicads. Maybe even 3000 nimh, but the cells get hot - though they only run low power, they run continuously and are in a sealed wooden box. With 3000 nimh, you'd be looking at shooting splash and goes for around 15 mins, lots of heat-up time there.

If that's too much, check out Oded Mazor's solution of eight cells and a Magnetic Mayhem normal rotation. The motor will last - cooling is first rate and the motor never runs flat out for long.

Saturdays' float meet, I plan on counting my splash and goes!

Regards

Dereck

[Looooeeee!]

Dereck

The Corky II was powered successfully with three different engines, a TD .049, a Medallion, and a Black Widow, now I don't know if these were running on high nitro. and I have no way to compare the thrust values but the Corky was already pretty wide and also had a transitioning hull shape that went from v shaped to a reverse v that Ted called a "cathedral point". These planes were flying off water lugging around an ancient Orbit brick three channel, that looked huge and heavy, they had a wingspan of 41" and had a wing loading of 14 oz./ sq. foot!

I think we could do a wee bit better with today's equipment. Check out RCM's plans menu, it might still be available.

It also is a very graceful looking ship...

[Joe Elston]

Dr Jet, you have given me the same scarry Idea of running a 1010/2Y in my Puddle Master. Spooky, but most likely I will stay with my Cermark Cobalt 6 turn 8 cells and 7x5 apc. I have been flying my new arf glow Sea Master and love the plane so since the colors are cool I plan to cover mine to match. 1010/2Y Scarry Dr Jet Scarry
Joe

[This message has been edited by JOE ELSTON (edited 05-08-2001).]

[J Bergsmith]

Tail surfaces complete. What did you guys use for hinging the elevator and rudder?
The reason I ask is because the rudder is only 3/32 sheet.

[GWRIGHT]

Covering is ultracote light, and I used the covering for hinges. I beveled the rudder on one side and the elevator on the bottom, so one side of fin/rudder is covered in one piece making the hinge, same for elevator/stab. Then "fold" over and cover the other side, again making covering the hinge. Easy, simple, costs nothing, and light.

Originally posted by J Bergsmith:
Tail surfaces complete. What did you guys use for hinging the elevator and rudder?
The reason I ask is because the rudder is only 3/32 sheet.

[J Bergsmith]

This is one neat plane/ship. Fuse is built and covered. Making good progress, will be ready for sizzle. Can we install a pond up at Gude?

[Dereck]

Hi John
Has to be the neatest - it's about the only kit I ever built that does exactly what the maker claims it will!

Okay, that's not a lot - until you have flown a dozen times with maybe 8 - 10 splash and goes in one day. A pond up the site formerly known as Mt T would be great, as long as we could keep logs out of it http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

The float fly - you didn't miss anything, weather was more suited to stunt kites. I think one guy got back to the bank on his floats, the rescue boat was much in demand for flip-overs. Left my PS in the car.

Wonder if we can scale it up for 16 - 20 cells http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/eek.gif ?

Regards

Dereck

[John Zook]

My P/M was built with twp extra bays in both wings putting the wingspan at over 54". Instead of the standard motor pylons, I made a single pylon with 1/8" lite ply and aileron stock sanded to nice smooth shape. Using a MM direct with 8x4 APC w/ 7 1700. Takes off quickly and flys well. Will have to try 7x4 prop also. Hmmmmm I have a MM w/ 2.5:1 gearbox.....now I'll have to find out if it will fit. Go to 8 cells and see what it flys like. BTW I finished mine to look somewhat like U.S. Coastguard. Cheers. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/biggrin.gif
John Zook

[DaveW]

John,
Sounds like good ideas. I wish I had thought of Coast Guard color scheme - sounds neat. I just change from an APC 8/4 to a 7/4 on my AF 05, and don't see any change in performance and the batteries and ESC are a LOT cooler at the end of the flights.
Just nice and warm even after " agressive" use of power.
I used a lot of high throttle one time with the 8/4 and actually melted the wrap right off the AF ESC, ( still works fine, just no clear wrap anymore )

Dave

[BEC]

Am part way through fitting my Scout with foam floats. Doing it as part of a rebuild - tried to do some left rolls Friday and it snapped out from inverted and did a nice two turn spin into the ground. It's always been reluctant to roll left and that's the only time I've ever provoked a snap.

Kinda messed up the fuselage as the battery went out through the softer right side in the crash. Thank goodness for Micafilm (kept all the pieces together) and thin CA (which made reassembling it possible).

Will send a pic or two after I finish rigging it up. Plan to use the simple water rudder on a wire down from the air rudder as is done on sport floatplanes alot - seems the simplest solution. (Did you get the Trexler tire configuration pics I sent?)

It'll probably actually get its maiden water voyage at Chilliwack.

[J Bergsmith]

Dereck,
I was going up to Columbia and check it out, but like you said the wind was howling in G-burg. We have to find a lake or pond for an all electric float fly in are area. I have a canoe for hauling in the stranded models.