Why Do You Need A Permit To Fly Turbine

[WillowPtarmigan]

I noticed if you want to fly turbine you have to get a permit from AMA. Why is that? I mean there are gas and electric powered airplanes that flyy really fast, like at 200 mph.

[rcelectfly]

AMA was afraid of the liability and the effect it would have on their insurance cost if they did not control it very closely. Some of their fears may have been unfounded but their are quite a few fires with crashes.

Chuck

[Sparky Paul]

I think it has to do with how to handle the new technology.
The turbines I've seen are much simpler and easier to use than a ducted-fan jet, and can be expected to attract "big money" without the learning curve a ducted-fan gives. :)

[leccyflyer]

I'll move this to the AMA forum as it's their permit you are discussing and you are more likely to get a definitive answer there.

Brian

[J_R]

Turbines were long ago banned by the AMA. Part of the reason was fire and part was the potential for the turbines to explode. As technology progressed turbines themselves became safer and more reliable. It is not actually a permit that is required, but a waiver. The waiver waves the rule against turbines for the waiver holder. The rules to obtain a waiver changed, literally, last month.

There are substantial differences in the operation of turbines that require different thinking than IC and electrics, such as a 25' area behind the plane that is unsafe to stand in. Other areas involve fire prevention, even to the point of requiring the pilot to have a fire extinguisher at all times. There are something on the order of 25 AMA documents pertaining to waiver holders, so it is impossible to go into all the details. If you really want to know all that is involved, the documents are on the AMA website in the documents section (.pdf section)

As a rule, the waiver holders are probably the safest segment of the AMA. There are currently about 800 waiver holders out of 170,000 AMA members.

[Shortman]

A turbine easier to operate then a ducted fan?! I have a club member who recently was invited to the Top Gun. His Jets are anything but simple.

For one, a turbine jet carries 1-2 gallons of kerosine (sp?) aka Jet A fuel from the local airport. The Turbine runs off a govener and a mini computer like machine that regulates and tells the pilot how the engine acted in flight. They usually have airbrakes, flaps, disc brakes for stopping and cost a hefty penny.

A 200mph jet flying around with 1-2 gallons of kerosine is not a toy electric plane. Jets are also pretty heavy, 20-30lbs easy.

They are just much more complicated and require more safety to operate them.


Steven

[J_R]

That's absolutely correct. As a matter of fact, until the rule change last month, it was against the rules for a non-waiver holder to fly a turbine on a buddy box. It was necessary for the potential waiver holder to demonstrate the ability to fly a high performance aircraft before being allowed to be tested for a waiver. The use of ducted fans was the accepted method to make that demonstration. In other words, you had to be able to fly a ducted fan before you were allowed to be tested for a waiver.

The new rules will allow a waiver holder to train a potential waiver holder by the use of a buddy box.

[Shortman]

You have to have so many hours on a plane that is capable of spped over 150mph correct? Something like oh 50 hours or so? Then when they feel you have displayed your skills and are ready, and take the safety test you will be allowed a waiver right?


Steven

[J_R]

The rules changed. It is no longer necessary to have the time on a high performance plane. There had been a required ground school from the turbine manufacturer. It too is gone. There are still a lot of requirements but, it is much easier now that buddy boxing is allowed. After flying on a buddy box, one must still demonstrate one's ability to handle the turbine powered plane before a waiver is granted. The entire waiver process is very much reliant on the existing waiver holders, both for training of new waiver holders and policiing of the rules.

The rules for airframes alone will cause pause to many. Basically, nothing less than a 10 channel radio will work. For instance, brakes are required, rudders are required. The rules go on and on. The turbine MUST shut down on lack of a radio signal (means a PCM radio is a must), starting next year. Actually, two methods of shutting it down will be required. This is to control the potential for fire during a crash. There is even a 200 mph speed limit. Turbines are banned from speed events and are not eligible for the experimental class for planes between 55 and 100 pounds.

A twin turbine jet can easily have over $15,000 invested in it, although the vast majority are jets between $5 and $10 thousand.

CL and rotary winged turbine rules are still in flux, since there are only a couple of people involved so far.

At least 50 flights on a plane capable of 100 mph or more are still required and the qualifiying flight needs to be in excess of 100 mph.