Kit Manufacturers Take Notice [Archive]

Rotten Robbie

Dec 11, 2001, 12:46 PM

For a kit manufacturer to produce these kits takes a sufficant market to make it possible to make a profit.

I use Cleveland for the basic plans for my planes.

http://www.clevelandairline.com/ASP/LIST.asp

I scan the bulkhead and rib patterns and then print them on teeshirt transfer paper. Then they are just like working with printwood.

If you want to see a variety of plans check their site. I have several of the Stinson and Waco plans.

And:
Boeing P-12E 1/12th scale.
Boeing F4B-4 1/16th scale.
Boeing P-26 1/12th scale.
Curtis P-6E 1/16th scale. This one is in process of being built.
Curtis A-8 Shrike 1/16th scale
Curtis F11C 1/12th scale.
Curtis P-40C 1/12 scale.
Grumman Duck J2F-5 in 1/12th scale.
Grumman XF5F 1/16th scale.
De Havilland Mosquito 1/16th scale.
Junkers JU-88 1/16th scale

Plus more I can't remember right now.

If you want to build something different, plans is really the only solution.

Try it. You might like it.

There are also the Earl Stahl plans that are free and are good for conversion.

Robbie

Jim Ryan

Dec 11, 2001, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by ChrisP
I'm waiting for the manufacturer who has the sphericals to start with something like this :

Vultee Vengeance
Bell Airacuda
Blohm & Voss 141
Bristol Brigand
Commonwealth Wirraway..........

Well then Chris, why don't you step up and start designing kits to fill the burgeoning demand for these aircraft? Thanks to the twin miracles of CAD and CNC laser cutting, you too can be a kit manufacturer.

Harold Hester of Sig Mfg. once wrote an article that was a sort of primer on getting into the kit business. He made a comment to the effect of, "If you're going to start a company to sell kits of a particular aircraft you love, whatever OTHER kits you offer, you'd better ALSO have a Mustang and a Cub." His point was that no matter how much you might want to offer a kit for a Miles Martinet or a Yokasuka B4Y, you're never going to even cover your costs if you don't have a popular kit to act as a cash cow.

As a garage operation with no ad budget, no employees (other than me) and a day job that keeps me plenty busy, I'm about as non-market-driven as any kit manufacturer you're ever likely to find. I choose each new kit subject less on the basis of market demand than on the basis of "What airplane do I want to build next?" Note that Harold's Mustang and Cub are two airplanes that are conspicuously absent from my product line. Certainly, I hope that I sell enough of a new kit to justify the time investment, but I have to love that airplane enough to spend months working on it.

I'm lucky if I can release one new kit per year. And releasing a kit takes many many hours of my supposed "hobby" time. At least my CAD time isn't on the clock; a truly commercial kit business would lose it's ass trying to market FM-1s and Vengeances.

But if you want to offer a range of such seldom-modeled subjects, I for one sincerely wish you the best of luck. But I would caution you that part of the reason these airplanes are desirable is their very rarity.

Jim

temacc

Dec 11, 2001, 09:07 PM

I'm curious what your garage looks like. I'm embarassed about mine, and I don't run a model company out of it!

Terry :)

Ron Daniels

Dec 11, 2001, 11:21 PM

As a very small manufacturer, I totally agree with Jim R. To draw and build a plane for oneself takes only a small fraction of the modelling time that it takes to produce sellable quality drawings, instructions, sort, inspect and package the kits, maintain some form of advertising, and support the products. This cuts well into ones own modelling time.

Because of the very low volume, it is not practical to try to reduce the time or costs required to produce such kits.

I work in the automotive industry, and I see daily how inexpensive a part can be produced in high volumes, with the use of special equipment costing $ thousands. For example, if you are building 500 000 $10 widgits each year, then a $5000 machine that saves you 1 second/widgit will decrease your labour and process operating costs by 3.61%. Assuming that this is 25% of the selling price, then $45,125 savings are realized each year. The machine is paid for in 5.76 weeks.

I can't see ever recovering a $5000 capital equipment cost when producing 100 or 200 copies of a kit each year.

Luckily for the R/C flier, most specialized manufacturers are hobbiests who don't bother to calculate their time into the equation when determining if a project has cost them money or made them money (AKA bought them more R/C stuff for their own use....).

If they did, most would be lucky to make 1/10 of what their day job pays them hourly for each hour spent kitting specialized model airplanes. From an emotional point of view, nothing feels better to a modeller than to see some other modeller bring to life another copy of an airplane that they liked enough to make the effort to produce a kit of.

Because of this emotional reward, there is a huge and growing library of kits on the market. Very few specialized manufacturers can afford to advertise in the normal sense, so some may be hard to find, and may require follwing some related links to find them. Try this some night. You may be surprized at what is available.

I think we all owe thanks to places like Sig, who support specialized kit makers with parts and materials that we could not afford if they did not share them with us. Many, many kits outside of thier own line-up would be impossible if it was not for them.

In electric, I think we should also thank places like EAM for taking the financial risks to stock many of these specialized, low volume kits in "no wait" numbers.

Finally, I think we should thank Jim Ryan. Jim brings some really neat kits to market and supports them to a super-human level. Come to think of it, he supports even non-customers to a super-human level.

Ron Daniels

ChrisP

Dec 12, 2001, 03:44 AM

Originally posted by Jim Ryan

Well then Chris, why don't you step up and start designing kits to fill the burgeoning demand for these aircraft? Thanks to the twin miracles of CAD and CNC laser cutting, you too can be a kit manufacturer.
You read minds !! If I take early retirement in 5 years I might just do it.

steve lewin

Dec 12, 2001, 03:55 AM

You just might want to consider that perhaps some of the less popular planes are less popular as models because...well they're less popular i.e. very few people like them. There were/are very many ugly, poorly designed or just plain uninteresting aeroplanes. There will always be a few people who build them just because they are different but aiming kits at a known audience of "a few people" is just a compliated way of throwing money away. Planes like Vultees and anything by Blohm&Voss are what scratch builders were made for :)

IMO Cessnas are simply boring. If you need a boring plane there are plenty of Cubs around :).

Steve

Graham

Dec 12, 2001, 04:35 AM

Wow Rotten Robbie

I love that cleveland site, what are the plans like (I could see a sample on the site, but it does not include:-)

Do you get a wood list ?
Are any suggestions on power plant on the plan ?
ARe they aimed at Electric ?

Tell us more

Bengtson

Dec 12, 2001, 12:07 PM

Well, I think it is time for me to talk about my plans in this area. I have looked at the scale electric marketplace for some time and I believe that there is a real gap here. It seems that what many electric modelers want is to have S400 versions of many WWI, Golden Age, WWII models in the 33-50" WS range. Look at all the interest in conversions of the Guillows and Dumas rubber kits. My web site has many free flight plans which are candiates for conversion and I can tell you that there is strong interest in these plans. However, I know that these plans are mostly rubber power and are for small wingspans. Yet the download activity is very great. Consider the fact that while the Guillows kits seem to be dissapointing to most modelers, they have been selling them for decades. Imagine a series of kits of similar planes but designed with laser cut quality and for Speed 400 power.

I am working with Peter Rake to introduce a kit of his Bristol Scout ~ 34"ws for Speed 400 power using the Mini-Olympus 2.33:1 gear drive. I plan to introduce it as a laser cut kit complete with laser cut wheels with Neoprene foam tires. I also plan to have a very complete set instructions and a CD with building tips, decal designs for inkjet printout and historical information about the plane. I believe that really good instructions are what the other kit makers seem to be missing. We hope to release the kit early next year.

Our emphasis will be on semi-scale planes that are true enough for the visual experience but are easy to build and fly well.

This kit will be followed by others, based on interest. Suggestions are welcomed.

We also will be introducing a series of balsa/ply/neoprene foam tire wheel kits for vintage planes. ( 1.75" to 3")

We will sell these kits on my companies web site.

These kits are to be flown rahter than as museum display. They will be priced reasonably.

I realize the pitfalls of the profitability as mentioned here. I have a golf company that my wife and I started from scratch 10 years ago. We have found that it is not possible to foretell which product will be profitable and where a new idea will take you. It is a journey and and an adventure. An adventure without risk is just sightseeing.

Rotten Robbie

Dec 12, 2001, 03:19 PM

Graham,

Cleveland used to be a kit manufacturer, I beleive pre WWII. Most of these plans were origianlly for 1/16th scale. But most if not all would fly verywell. But they were mostly for rubberband power. But not all.

There is no wood list or any other kind of list. The wood is called out on the plans and pattern sheets. You need to adjust the wood size relative to 1/16th scale in most cases. I am building some 1/12th scale airplanes. I am building some 1/12th scale airplanes. I change anything called out 1/16" to 3/32". It is really pretty simple.

But you need to have some experiance in adapting RBFF airplanes to power. Starting with a Dumas or Herr kit is a good experiance. Then take on a more complex project.

Robbie

CharleyRexom

Dec 12, 2001, 09:11 PM

I like the civilian planes of the late 30's to early fifties. Luscombe, Cessna Airmaster & 195, 120, 140, 170, Ercoupe, Navion, Bellanca Cruisair etc. I've got old kits or plans for all except the Navion. But a laser kit would be sweet!

Charley

Rotten Robbie

Dec 12, 2001, 10:59 PM

Charley,

Here is a FREE set of plans for the Navion:

http://www.theplanpage.com/esp/navion.htm

This is anopther I would like to do. Also the Republic Seebee.

Robbie

Philip Aberer

Dec 12, 2001, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by Jim Ryan
Note that Harold's Mustang and Cub are two airplanes that are conspicuously absent from my product line.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

:D

Originally posted by ChrisP
Great idea, but as soon as they read 6. it will be :
Spitfire, Me 109, Corsair, P40, Zero.........

True, but also consider that none of those same type of kit designers could produce even a half-accurate 109 to save their life!

Actually I'm rather glad that nobody makes kits of Brigands and Me410's and He177's and the like. Would you really enjoy it as much if you took your newly completed 177 to the field and everybody yawned "oh, is it another one of those?" ;)

ChrisP

Dec 13, 2001, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Philip Aberer
Actually I'm rather glad that nobody makes kits of Brigands and Me410's and He177's and the like. Would you really enjoy it as much if you took your newly completed 177 to the field and everybody yawned "oh, is it another one of those?" ;)
Worse than that : I took up my 'scratch built with much love' Percival Prentice and was greeted with 'Nice Hurricane you've got there....'

I once built a Brigand T4 for Round The Pole, and NOBODY, I mean NOBODY had any idea what it was. Same story with my RTP Vultee Vengeance which I still have in the cellar. I built it because my Dad flew them. I'm currently doing a 1/18th scale scratch built He 177 in the markings of the one that was captured (i.e. RAF roundels). That'll throw them too.
I also mentioned (above) the Bell Airacuda. I am sorely tempted to knock one up as a replacement for my Twinstar. It really has a lot going for it as an electric model. Lots of wing area ! http://unicraft.20m.com/cgi-bin/i/novo/acuda.jpg
And spread on my coffee table at the moment is a 3-view of the Bristol Buckmaster/Buckingham. That would make a good Twinstar replacement too.
http://avia.russian.ee/air/england/bristol_buckingham.html

I love this kind of stuff !

E-Challenged

Dec 16, 2001, 12:42 PM

I just went over Easy-Built's line of kits and they do have some "jumbo" rubber kits that could be converted for geared S400. Conversion of old rubber kit designs to electric, including judicious beefing up of landing gears and wing spars, changing incidence, balancing, etc., requires considerable past experience to avoid major disappointments and have an enjoyable experience. This is why I would like to see many more new kits of old favorite light planes with enough wing area for scale-like flight with easy ROG's and soft flared landings.

I think that laser cutting drives the development time and cost of producing kits way up although a few impatient modelers may insist on it. It isn't really all that hard to cut out a few wing ribs and fuselage formers from print-wood. Poor die-cutting requires cutting out parts anyway . Light sanding of the backside of die-dut sheets usually make things easier. The pride in building, covering and flying a balsa kit successfully needs to be experienced. Use of CYA has vastly speeded up the process.

www.easybuiltmodels.com

peterc

Dec 16, 2001, 01:17 PM

I have to agree with whoever said development costs are so high. Look what happens when a manufacturer does produce a nice kit or line ofkits like DARE. Wonderful line of aircraft but oh so expensive (especially here in Canada with our $0.63 dollar) For those of us that do like the weird and obscure there is always scratch building. Once you have built an Easybuilt kit or two, nothing is impossible. The more you build the easier it gets and to top it off you will never see another one at the field. Believe me there is real pride in designing, building and flying your own aircraft.
I think this ARF trend has turned the whole industry into a toy factory for big kids who are too lazy to build. Check the prices of some of these molded foam planes on the market. You better believe the box costs one heck of a lot more than whats inside it.
Pete

ChrisP

Dec 17, 2001, 04:30 AM

I talked with the Easy Built guys at the Toledo show once (late 80s or early 90'). I said 'I like your Lancaster, but why is there a picture of a Lincoln on the box' ?
Looks of amazement !
Next year I noticed the box label had changed.
Anybody got an Easy Built Lancaster kit with the Lincoln label ?

Jim Ryan

Dec 17, 2001, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by E-Challenged
I think that laser cutting drives the development time and cost of producing kits way up although a few impatient modelers may insist on it.

On what do you base this statement? True, for very large volume kit production, die cutting is cheaper than laser cutting. But the huge advantage of laser cutting is that there are no tooling costs other than a nominal prototype fee. This puts laser cutting within the reach of small operations that otherwise could not consider getting into the kit business.

Yes, the designer needs to take more time to optimize the CAD files for laser cutting, but if you're using CAD to design the model in the first place, this isn't a significant extra effort.

For one of my kits, laser cutting only adds a few dollars to the cost of the balsa that I would have to include anyway. Off-hand, I don't think it's more than $10 for any of my kits, with the possible exception of the P-47, which has a lot more laser cut sheets than any of my previous kits. I think most modelers would be willing to pay $10 extra to get CNC laser cut parts instead of a box of printwood.

It isn't really all that hard to cut out a few wing ribs and fuselage formers from print-wood.

True enough. Nearly all my planes are built from scratch, so I have plenty of experience cutting parts from sheet stock. But many modelers simply aren't interested in spending time hacking out parts when they could be assembling and covering the airframe. Frankly, in this age of ARFs, I think it's great that so many modelers still want to experience the pleasure of building and flying their own scale model.

I would point out that laser cutting results in a degree of accuracy and repeatability few modelers can hope to match. If the files are properly done, the fit is truly remarkable.

There's certainly room for different views here, and if you like working with printwood, that's fine. Personally, transferring plans to wood is easy enough that I'd find it just about as easy to build from plans. And there are LOTS of good plans - including some unusual subjects - out there.

Jim
Ryan Aircraft

E-Challenged

Dec 17, 2001, 11:09 AM

Given that a home garage kit maker already has the training and experience to use the software and hardware effectively
(which costs something), what would the initial and recurring costa of buying and using the hardware and software per kit amount to?

I don't know, but I imagine that the initial investment and recurring cost of laser cutting capability might be daunting to somebody thinking of starting a kit building operation with the objective of making a decent profit. I can also see that already having the laser cutting capability could be a competitive advantage.

Young builders with little money might well want to cut out wing ribs and formers from printwood to save 10 to 20 dollars. Optional "short kits" with only printwood, plans and canopies are another idea that might be tried to keep prices on low volume scale kits to a minimum.

Jim Ryan

Dec 17, 2001, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by E-Challenged
Given that a home garage kit maker already has the training and experience to use the software and hardware effectively
(which costs something), what would the initial and recurring costa of buying and using the hardware and software per kit amount to?

I'm not sure I understand the question. There's no real hardware to use, as I send off the DXF files and have the parts cut by my supplier. The software cost depends on what CAD package you're using. I'm using AutoCAD LT, which costs about $450, but there are perfectly good CAD packages suitable for this sort of work for about $100.

I don't know, but I imagine that the initial investment and recurring cost of laser cutting capability might be daunting to somebody thinking of starting a kit building operation with the objective of making a decent profit. I can also see that already having the laser cutting capability could be a competitive advantage.

Why would you want to invest in the capital equipment? Frankly, given the relatively low cost of laser time, even if I DID own a reasonably low-cost laser, I'd still outsource cutting of production parts. I'd only use my own laser for cutting prototypes and optimizing files.

As for start-up costs, I started Ryan Aircraft - such as it is - almost literally with money out of my pocket. I bought a Feathercut, and I had to "seed" my initial run of kit parts, cartons, etc.

Frankly, the challenge of starting a kit line begins when you get to details we haven't even discussed yet. Where do you get cartons of the right size, shape and cost? Can you make production-quality vacuum forming plugs? Do you have access to a vacuum former or know a supplier that will pull parts for you at a reasonable cost? Where do you get plans copied without going broke? Do you mind having no life? (just kidding). Really, sourcing the laser cutting was one of the easier hurdles for me to clear.

Young builders with little money might well want to cut out wing ribs and formers from printwood to save 10 to 20 dollars. Optional "short kits" with only printwood, plans and canopies are another idea that might be tried to keep prices on low volume scale kits to a minimum.

1. This subject comes up from time to time. Let's use my Bearcat as an example. The plan is $15 from the Air Age plans service, and P&H is another $7. The wing cores and canopy are $24, including shipping. So you're up to $46, and you haven't even started to buy the balsa and ply yet. For Sig wood at your LHS, the wood included in the kit is close to $20. So let's call the total cost $65. Because this business is not my primary source of income, I can afford not to worry about it one way of the other, but that sure seems like false economy to me.

2. I don't disagree with you that printwood is another option, but the irony is that printwood, unlike laser cutting, DOES entail a tooling charge, because you have to buy the printing pads. And for all that, you end up with what I think anyone would call an inferior product. And at the end of the day, all other things being equal (which they are), the laser cutting only adds about $10 to the cost of the kit.

Jim

E-Challenged

Dec 17, 2001, 01:57 PM

Jim:

Lots of enlightenment here, wasn't even aware that most kit builders outsourced their laser cutting. If there was a simple and cheap way to print on balsa, that could be part of the answer on how to make short runs of interesting scale kits at a reasonable prices.

I'm trying to snag a Comet 54" Taylorcraft kit to go with my 54" Aeronca Chief which is nearly rebuilt after a shoot-down. These $1.00 kits are going for $40 on Ebay now, maybe I shouldn't have gone on and on about what a great flyer my Chief is.

Jim Ryan

Dec 17, 2001, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by E-Challenged
Lots of enlightenment here, wasn't even aware that most kit builders outsourced their laser cutting.

I don't know about "most", but I do know about me. ;) But since we were talking about small volume kit production, I think you can assume that quite a few cottage suppliers out-source their laser cutting. Suppliers like Sig and Laser Arts keep plenty busy.

If there was a simple and cheap way to print on balsa, that could be part of the answer on how to make short runs of interesting scale kits at a reasonable prices.

Aye, there's the rub. I suppose a fellow could simply acetone transfer part layouts onto sheet stock for very small runs of kits (this would get old in a hurry). For larger numbers of kits, you're back to needing a printing block, and that requires some tooling outlay.

But the crux of the matter is this: For whatever number of kits you produce, laser cutting requires no tooling layout other than the prototyping fee. Printwood is a little cheaper in terms of direct costs, but does require an up-front tooling charge. At the end of the day, I'm reasonably certain that more customers decide to buy a kit in part because it's laser cut than decide NOT to buy because they think it costs $10 too much.

Jim

Eddie P

Dec 17, 2001, 08:16 PM

I wouldn't have bought one of Jim's Bearcat's if it wasn't at least die cut. That would have been a crying shame, too.

Having said that, and having built one, the Bearcat is my favorite small model, hands down. Now I wouldn't flintch at building another from plans - with no cut parts, just me, balsa and a knife.

Laser cutting has been great to the modelling business!

Ed

Daren

Dec 18, 2001, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by E-Challenged
Young builders with little money might well want to cut out wing ribs and formers from printwood to save 10 to 20 dollars. Optional "short kits" with only printwood, plans and canopies are another idea that might be tried to keep prices on low volume scale kits to a minimum.
I've been an instructor with our flying club for the past five years and of all the students young or old, rich or poor, the true "builders", were by far in the minority.

Given the enormous popularity of the ARF market right now, I would say this is true for experienced pilots, too.

I scratch build because no one offers plans or kits for the airplanes I want to fly, and that is part of the attraction; having a unique airplane. Once I show it off, many will ask (for plans), but few will build.

If you want a unique model, it's actually not that hard to design it. If you take Dan and my WB-57N, it's a sport model that looks an awful lot like the full size airplane. Same with the Flankers. The real trick is using the scale outlines, then filling in the rest with sport plane.

You can do it, the hardest part is making the decision to begin!
Daren

David F. Plummer

Dec 20, 2001, 12:31 AM

Just a short comment to ChrisP (and anyone else who might be interested): I'm building a 1/12 model of the Bell YFM-1A based on drawings from the National Air and Space Museum, and some photos from WPAFB. If you have already built one of these, I'd sure be interested to see any photos of your model; if not, and you'd like any photos of my (snail-like) progress, let me know.

Regards,

David Plummer

ChrisP

Dec 20, 2001, 07:57 AM

Excellent choice of American heavy metal, David !!!! I look forward to seeing the pictures on the ezone some day. I know all about snail-like progress as my 1/18th scale He 177 is in its third year of build.

If you have documentation that any of the Airacudas were camouflaged, I'd appreciate hearing from you. I just have a thing about flying all chrome aeroplanes (from a visibility point of view). I have a nagging feeling it would be quite possible that they were painted in khaki/grey like the Airacobras after the outbreak of WW II. That would be enough for me to build one.

Best of luck with you project.

Chris

Wrongway Feldman

Dec 20, 2001, 04:38 PM

If you go into kit producing I recommend that you be aware of the IRS hobby loss rules. A small kit producer should always treat the endeavor as an activity engaged in for profit (a business) and never a hobby (you must not enjoy it). Hobby losses are not deductible. Hobby expenses would be deductible only up to the amount of hobby income (less a 2% AGI floor on sch.A), but no net hobby loss would be allowed. If the endeavor is a business and you have a net loss you can deduct the business loss on shedule C.

Have fun!

Wrongway Feldman

Dec 20, 2001, 05:01 PM

Sorry, I should have ended the last post with:
Don't have fun.

Jim Ryan

Dec 21, 2001, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by ChrisP
If you have documentation that any of the Airacudas were camouflaged, I'd appreciate hearing from you. I just have a thing about flying all chrome aeroplanes (from a visibility point of view). I have a nagging feeling it would be quite possible that they were painted in khaki/grey like the Airacobras after the outbreak of WW II. That would be enough for me to build one.

Chris, I can't find any photos of the YFM-1s or -1As in which they aren't polished metal. One of my sources also reads, "At the time of the outbreak of WWII (they really mean at the time of the US entry into the conflict) the FMs had all been relegated to Class 26 for use as non-flying training equipment." So it's unlikely they would have painted them.

This would certainly make a nice enough scale model; low frontal area, large wing area, modest wing taper. Only down side is that it would have that annoying Zagi whine. ;)

Jim

ChrisP

Dec 21, 2001, 09:06 AM

Jim - Interesting information about Class 26. So the chances of a camouflaged Airacuda must be pretty low.

But what you say about the Zagi noise is very worrying. Can you imagine what TWO full size Zagi's would sound like !!

Is that maybe the REAL reason they cancelled the program ?

Cheers !

Chris

Daren

Dec 22, 2001, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by ChrisP
Is that maybe the REAL reason they cancelled the program ?
Chris
This just in from the test pilot, Erik Shilling.

"Flying the Bell Airacuda was a new experience for me, since it was the first pusher aircraft I'd ever flown. Its handling characteristics were foreign to anything I had ever had my hands on. Under power it was unstable in pitch, but stable with power off. While flying straight and level, if a correction in pitch was required, a forward push on the control resulted in the airplane wanting to pitch over even more. Pitch control became a matter of continually jockeying the controls, however slightly, even when the aircraft was in proper trim. The same applied if pulling back on the control. It would tend to continue pitching up, requiring an immediate corrective response. The same happened in a turn with power off, the Bell became stable in pitch. This was fortunate because during approach and landing, it was very stable, and a nice flying airplane."

Read more about it at:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/Prototypes.html

Sounds like basically a bad design from the get-go.

Daren

gbruce

Dec 23, 2001, 04:18 AM

I don't know about you guys ,but when I opened my SPEED 400 D0-335 prototype designed by Ted Biggs and saw the INCREDIBLY fine, perfectly symetrical cuts that the laser cutter produced a HUGE grin came across my face...:D :cool:

..when ever I've opened a kit with PRINTWOOD... a sagging feeling in my gut came over me and I thought ..Another project :eek:

Is it worth the extra $10 ...YES!! even for 20... How much is your time worth?

my thoughts...

Bruce:)

Ken Manuel

Jan 02, 2002, 03:23 PM

Well, isn't this an interesting thread. I must agree with every point throughout made by the honorable Jim Ryan. I have just gone through the learning curve of designing many speed 400 warbirds that Jim doesn't offer. It has taken me a year of prototypes before I was confident to open to the public. I fought making the P-51 Mustang for the longest time but could not run or hide from customer demand and gave in to "Mikes Mustang Club". It cost more to manufacture than all the others. I presently offer 4 models. The P-51B-C, P-40E, ME-109E and Japanese Zero. As for some of the offbeat fighters, soon to be released are the P-39 Airacobra, FW190D-9, YAK 7 and Hawker Hurricane. The entire line was created out of 90% extruded foam as well as laser cut tail feathers and 1/32 plywood reinforcements. Each aircraft is exactly 31" inch wingspan and scaled to approx 14th in order to keep the forward resistance equal among the line for local pylon/combat competitions. These use some of the cheapest mini equipment available. Hitec focus 3 AM with 2 HS-81's and direct drive speed 400 with a 6x3 prop. They look as scale as you want them to look, or skip the detail and get them up and flying within a weekend. P.S. Great kits Jim Ryan. I adore my Ryan Rare Bear, but I think I'll take my foamie mustang into combat instead :)

ChrisP

Jan 07, 2002, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by Ken Manuel
As for some of the offbeat fighters, soon to be released are the P-39 Airacobra, FW190D-9, YAK 7 and Hawker Hurricane.
OK Ken, I'm not going to take you to task for calling the Hurricane an offbeat fighter (!!!!) as I appreciate the effort with the Airacobra and the Yak 7. I bought the Global Kits Airacobra back in 1994, but never got around to building it as it seemed to have been designed with the motto 'use five parts where one will do'. It's still lurking in my cellar somewhere. One day I'll sell it at Toledo for millions as a rarity.

Here's a deep thought : Considering that the most numerous aircraft of all time was the Ilyushin Stormovik, isn't it amazing that there isn't one single kit (at least that I know of) in existence ?

Daren - Thanks for the interesting information. Yes, the Airacuda really seemed to have been a POS. But when I look at what we, the Brits, built (e.g. Vickers Windsor, Blackburn Botha, Saro Lerwick) it's dangerous to throw stones !

Ken Manuel

Jan 07, 2002, 09:43 AM

OK ChrisP I stand corrected ;) The Hurricane isn't an offbeat fighter... just that few people make exciting small hurricane kits. It's one of my favorites so I bought a Balsa Craft to fill my Hurricane needs till my prototype was done. Mustangs and ME109's coming out of my... ears ;)

I already know by sales that the Zero isn't as popular a plane as many others I sell yet everyone respects it's incredible turning radius and combat capabilities.

For this reason I would prefer to see how the YAK and the others sell before I would venture to make a Stormovik. The new Stormovik video game should hopefully make the demand for this aircraft increase. You are the first one to ask for this kit so far Chris. If demand is there... you'll get a Stormovik F.F.X. Park Fighter on the market :)

Regards,

Van

Jan 07, 2002, 10:18 AM

Ken, do you have a web site, or any pictures of the models you offer?

ChrisP

Jan 07, 2002, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Ken Manuel
For this reason I would prefer to see how the YAK and the others sell before I would venture to make a Stormovik.
Ken
I have complete respect for what you are saying, after all the kit manufacturers HAVE to make a profit. Even so there are still (thankfully) a few interesting anomalies in the kit market e.g. the Balsacraft Bristol Blenheim ! But I bet they don't sell too many of those. I guess that because the Stormovik is a RUSSIAN aircraft, it will never have high acceptance in the western world due to low awareness levels.

Seriously - If you wanted to go 'more offbeat' I think that something like a Grumman Avenger would be a much safer bet than a Stormovik !

Wishing you success in your endeavours !

Chris

max z

Jan 07, 2002, 11:53 AM

If you wanted to go 'more offbeat' I think that something like a Grumman Avenger would be a much safer bet than a Stormovik !

I think I can get a certain kit manufacturer to have a go at designing an Avenger, would many of you be interested?
it will not be a cheapy though, seeing all the compound curvatures and complex cockpit glazing (rear turret), midwing design etc.

Max.

ChrisP

Jan 07, 2002, 12:05 PM

Max
I'd put my money where my mouth is. You could count me in for an Avenger - guaranteed. Man, I can already see it winging across our field in Royal Navy markings !

It'll be interesting to see if the fish bite !

Chris

Ken Manuel

Jan 07, 2002, 02:58 PM

Hi Van. My new website just went up to show kits in the box as well as finished aircraft. The address is

http://webhome.idirect.com/~manuel

As far as the Avenger goes. It's not on my list of models to build since I have too many other single and twin engine prototypes that also need some attention.

Creating 4 pursuit/fighter aircraft is more than enough of a line-up to start with.

Regards,

TheNails

Jan 07, 2002, 10:07 PM

Ken, was just wondering if these are the same park fighters that are offered on the sky hooks and rigging site? They are sweet looking planes for sure!

Ken Manuel

Jan 07, 2002, 10:29 PM

Yes these are the very same F.F.X Park Fighters advertised by Skyhooks & Rigging in Model Airplane News and Backyard Flyer.

I am the designer and manufacturer of the entire F.F.X Park Fighter line. Skyhooks & Rigging is strickly a dealer like a hobby store for my line of aircraft. I sell kits direct to the public as well. See the entire line-up at the following address,

http://webhome.idirect.com/~manuel

I thank you kindly for the compliment "TheNails" :)
These sure are a blast to fly too!

Best regards,

Ken Manuel

Jan 16, 2002, 03:17 AM

Here's a sample of my latest P-51 Mustang. Hey at least give me credit for releasing a "B" version instead of the more common "D" version yes? :)

It's the Texas Terror lll which was flown by Lieutenant Lee Mendenhall of the 354th Fighter Squadron. (355th Fighter Group Assn.)

Mark Winstanley

Jan 21, 2002, 05:54 PM

I would just like to agree with what has been said by some of the kit manufacturers who have posted replys here. I am also a small time kit manufacturer. I really got into this business by accident by producing a model I wanted and discovering that others were also interested. I make practically no money at it especially if you take my time into consideration.

For those of you that are interested in seeing certain models kitted I would be interested in hearing from you. I am always looking for new models to offer. It takes me some time to get a kit out (as Peter Rake will Testify) as I like to build what I am kitting first.

Our next offering, for those interested, will be a 36" span Tiger Moth (DH82A and DH82C) as designed by Peter Rake (I am sure you are all familiar with the name. I am hoping to release kits in the spring. The kit will feature laser cut parts and a complete hardware package with construction notes.

If you have a design that you think might be one that others may like as well contact me through my web site www.kam.on.ca. I can take CAD drawings in .DXF or .VLM format.

Also take a look at the site for our other offerings all of the "wet" but might interest you.

TFLG

Feb 07, 2002, 05:33 PM

I have recently began working with CSD to start converting the Slope Scale line of PSS slopers to electric flight. The planes are sport scale since we really had to thin them a bit for good slope performance. They are all approx 1/12 scale and have glass fuses and foam/balsa wings.

So far we only have a few prototypes flying but kits are not too far off. If I don't stuff them before hand we will be flying them at the MWE.

The P-40, P-39, and BD-5 are all nearly ready. Sitting on the bench ready for molding are a P-51B, and Me-109G.

Others to follow, Spitfire, Zero, P-51D, Reno style P-51, and we have others too that may or may not be kitted like a Tucano, Fw-190, 1/10th scale Me-262, and a small B-17. These are way down the road if Robert at CSD decides to kit them but you can always bug him if interested.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/slope_scale/

Twmaster

Feb 08, 2002, 03:54 AM

A question to those whom do produce thier own kits or want to:

We are in the process of purchasing a laser cutting machine. How much interest is there from you? How much interest is there from you scratch builders for cutting services?

We are expecting to have our cutter online in 8 weeks.

Regards,

Twmaster

Feb 13, 2002, 03:21 AM

A follow on question to my previous post.

How many sheets of wood are you kit makers using for your average kits? We are expecting our pricing to be $3-4 per sheet for laser time in any reasonable quantity of work. We will also be providing quality wood to our customers if needed.

One thing we will be able to do that most cutters cannot is cut up to 60" pieces which could be useful for glider/sailplane and large kit designers.

Cheers,

Tom Hunt

Feb 13, 2002, 12:01 PM

I have some new scale "plans" that anyone interested in geared speed 400 might be interested in....

see that at:

http://www.modelairtech.com/early.html

Tom Hunt
Modelair-Tech

ChrisP

Feb 14, 2002, 06:40 AM

Tom

Congratulations on your choice of subjects. VERY refreshing !

max z

Feb 14, 2002, 12:39 PM

Tom,
I am interested in some of your offerings. Please check the ModelairTech e-mail.

Max.

tiggs

Feb 15, 2002, 10:43 AM

I don't know how I've missed this thread!
Lots of good stuff.

My experience with laser cutting has been nothing but good.
I taught myself to use CAD solely to be able to make plans for myself for unusual subjects, as I had no drafting experience, and little faith in my ability to daraw straight lines.

I know that Jim Ryan truly optimizes his files before sending them to be cut, as I read the column he wrote about it along with others about drafting CAD plans in MAN a few years ago, which I used as a tutorial! (I also get to pick his brain as I fly with him on the weekends) Hi Jim!

I send individual files grouped by wood type (ie 1/16balsa.dxf, 1/16ply.dxf) to LaserArts, and Dave lays them out as efficiently as he can according to my grain orientation directions, and he charges me about $16.20 for his set up. As he is working with his own machine, I am sur that he is doing a better job than I would. After that, it is just wood cost and laser time per set that I want!

It may seem a little extravagant to some to pay a total of $25-30 to have have a set of perfectly cut set of parts made for myself if I never sell another set to defray that mountainous $16 set-up fee, but several things figure in for me.

I love drawing out the plans after measuring up 3 views, etc.
I love flying
I love building.
I am severely time limited, as many are here, working 70-100 hours per week on my day job.

Anyhitng I can do to save a little time helps, and it is always a thrill to me to see those perfectly cut pieces and think that I layed them out!

Regarding an earlier comment, I have also started sending construction photos, notes, etc burned on CD with plans/parts I've sent out. This is something you may see only in small run kits. I do everything out of my house, so burning a dozen or so CDs at home is doable, 100 would require professional help!

I wonder if they've been useful.