Is AMA more expensive? [Archive]

mkirsch1

Feb 18, 2004, 12:53 PM

Is there any other hobby in the world where the hobbyists whine and complain this much about the cost of providing facilities? You'll spend thousands on planes and gear, but when it comes to spending $58 for a membership that makes it easy and convenient to fly at thousands of fields around the country, and makes it easy and convenient for your club to organize itself, you throw a screaming fit!

AMA does more than provide insurance. For those of us in clubs, the AMA does most of the paperwork that members of the club would otherwise have to do themselves. Many clubs have problems getting people to mow the freaking grass. You're thinking they'd rather do paperwork?

You can get insurance from your local State Farm agent. The AMA provides CONVEINENCE with their insurance. Can you tell what someone's homeowner's insurance covers, or if it's in effect, by the color of the policy's front page? Imagine trying to get checked in as a pilot at an event if they only accepted homeowner's insurance. Each participant would have to have his policy reviewed by an insurance expert at the meet to make sure it covered accidents related to R/C flying, AND they'd have to call in to the insurance carrier to make sure his bill was paid up. By the time three people got checked in, the event would be over! With the AMA, all you do is flash the right color card. In a nanosecond, EVERYONE knows you're covered.

TimOBrien

Feb 18, 2004, 04:27 PM

Hmmmm... lets see:

I spend several hundred to a thousand dollars or so a year for airplanes, motors, radios, magazines, club membership, etc.

And then carp about $50 for an AMA card that provides insurance, organized contests, a magazine and national lobbying to keep the FCC and lawyers from sinking the hobby (as they have tried several times in the 30 years of my membership)????

Duhhhhh....

Hal Ray

Feb 18, 2004, 05:48 PM

Yes I do pay less being over 65 but what ever it costs us to belong to the AMA it's worth it even if all they did is protect our frequencies.

(being over 65 is not worth it, you know you are on a down hill run and the end is near)

HRH

rclark

Feb 18, 2004, 06:50 PM

I don't mind paying at all. Plus for my kids it is only $1 . Can't beat it. For $60, we are covered and can fly at the club field anytime (all year round) and and fun flys, etc. Last year I spent over $2000 on the hobby :eek: so $60 is a drop in the proverbial bucket. Just keeping our economy going ;) . Hopefully the spending on aeroplanes will slow down a bit this year :) .

Sure I wish it was 'free'; but that's very unrealistic :) .

Weisse Luft

Feb 18, 2004, 07:00 PM

I don't mind paying for the benefits of membership but what I do object is to clubs that exist on community property (parks, former landfills, flood impoundment areas etc) that require membership to fly. This should be a concession type operation to defray costs of facilities and general admission required. I wouldn't even mind paying in advance for 30 days of flying rights but to require someone to fork over $300 for a year's worth of flying privledges?

Ron Williams

Feb 18, 2004, 07:01 PM

For all the fools who think their Homeowner's Insurance is enough, pray you never hurt a bystander with your toy. Mostly what your insurance covers is the lawyer's fees required to protect you in a lawsuit.

If you have an "Occurrence", kiss any chance of buying insurance of any kind again goodbye. You will be on the "black list" from there on out, too much of a risk. THAT's what the AMA insurance protects you from - it puts the rest of your life's risks a step further away from financial disaster.

jimsp

Feb 18, 2004, 08:29 PM

The AMA is again trying to protect our frequencies. Check this (http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/freqcomm.asp) disturbing development.

Todd Long

Feb 18, 2004, 09:55 PM

58 Dollars...!!!, Heck you guys are getting off cheap. My AMA cost me $1500.00 last year, but it was a life membership :D

Todd
www.toddsmodels.com
www.buygws.com

kenny_dilger

Feb 18, 2004, 10:08 PM

All the talk of insurance... I must admit, I have not read the policy at all for AMA insurance, but.... I can't imagine them actually covering you if you have an accident at a non-AMA approved flying area...

Todd Long

Feb 18, 2004, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by kenny_dilger
All the talk of insurance... I must admit, I have not read the policy at all for AMA insurance, but.... I can't imagine them actually covering you if you have an accident at a non-AMA approved flying area...

It says nothing about having to fly at a "sanctioned" AMA field but it does say you have to follow the AMA safety code.

Todd

Weisse Luft

Feb 18, 2004, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by kenny_dilger
All the talk of insurance... I must admit, I have not read the policy at all for AMA insurance, but.... I can't imagine them actually covering you if you have an accident at a non-AMA approved flying area...

If you are following the safety rules, there is little reason you are not covered. AMA does not "approve" areas but it puts this responsibility on the pilot when flying in areas that are not secured. Fly in a populated area without control of the immediate area and you could be losing coverage. Parkflyers, take notice.

OhioMike

Feb 19, 2004, 01:43 AM

I started my Model flying experience with a local "Glow" flyers club and going thru the bit of getting AMA membership and becomeing a member of this local club......I went to the meetings that were more about the achievements of a few and the usual pats on the back by a few for a few!, then about teaching anything to anybody.....They said "Show up at the field with your plane and the instructors, who are "Always there" will "Willingly teach you how to fly". I did! They didnt! They were a bunch who mostly flew expensive Helicopters and Pattern planes and above all didnt have time to teach this "New guy" how to fly! 6 trips or more to the field without a single person even showing the slightest bit of interest in teaching anyone anything, except of course the usual pats on the back on the fellas who were there and just flew thier fantastic glow plane to new heights in RC flight glory! I realized finally, i have better chance of learning to fly the Space shuttle from my mom then these folks takeing the time for anybody!!! There went my club membership and my AMA membership. I wont join another club. I still debate to this day about the real benefit of AMA membership. Sure, you can fly at all these clubs fields with AMA membership!! right!

Hal Ray

Feb 19, 2004, 08:39 AM

We can't let bad clubs get us away from supporting AMA , this thread is about the AMA, is it good or bad, should you belong or not, is it worth the dues or not.
There is nothing that is all good or all bad.
I'm a member of a club but I don't think everyone has to be in a club.
I'm a member of AMA and hope anyone who is serious about flying RC would not just look at the bad aspects but at the whole picture. I feel that we realy do need the AMA.

HRH

R. Carver

Feb 19, 2004, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by OhioMIke
I wont join another club.
And you shouldn't, because every club is like that. :rolleyes:

Sure, you can fly at all these clubs fields with AMA membership!! right!
I can, 'cause I have my AMA card :D

Daren

Feb 19, 2004, 06:07 PM

rclark

Feb 19, 2004, 06:51 PM

Daren, don't be so hard on the guy.... It can be very frustrating. We have only ONE club in town. So if you had a bad expereince there, you have no where to go...... I learned on my own; but I know how hard it is to get trainers even at our field.... I watched last year as some trainees only got a few flights the whole summer.... frustrating. I'd of helped but they had these funny old fashion piston devices up front that I know nothing about (before my time I guess :p ) :o ...... Oh and they even have to start 'em with an external starter -- just like that crank on a model T :) . Just kidding guys ;) .

What's nice now is you CAN learn on your own (simulator, SlowStick, etc.) . An AMA does cover you whereever you fly as long as you follow the rules..... I used the club field for the most part when no one was around and flew my Sky Scooter at the time. A open ball field would work as well.... Here is a link to some experiences.....

Learn on your own (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77666)

little nail

Feb 19, 2004, 07:44 PM

I pay over 200 hundred dollars a month for home owners coverage, a one million dollar umbrella policy, insurance on two cars, plus some life insurance. I also belong to the AMA, what's another 58 dollars. My umbrella policy with State Farm will cover my 12 oz. mini cub, but you never know about the sue happy people in USA. George

Shortman

Feb 19, 2004, 08:49 PM

My ama cost me $2 for 2 years... otherwise, I probably wouldnt buy it hehe.

Steven

Shortman

Feb 19, 2004, 08:54 PM

One problem I have with AMA, is you actually THINK your covered, but your really screwed when it actually counts.

My club buddy who flys the giant scale planes with me was starting a DA 100 one day when the tie strap on the tail came loose. Needless to say, he lost his 2 fingers in the prop and a lot of pain.

He filed a claim for AMA and they basically said, it was your fault, no coverage.

Now I guess medical insurance is what your suppose to use but AMA didn't even say sorry. They just said hey, you did it, not our problem.

What would happen if you were to hit someone else?

BillM

Feb 19, 2004, 11:11 PM

Weisse Luft
The clubs that use public land are still responsible to the community for providing insurance. Otherwise the locallity would bear the financial responsibility should an accident occur. We fly on state land and the state requires we provide them with a certificate of insurance. The state also insists that users of the site--club members or not--must be insured as well. The easiest and most accurate way is the AMA. We had to have signs made stating just that.

BM

Daren

Feb 20, 2004, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by rclark
Daren, don't be so hard on the guy.... It can be very frustrating. We have only ONE club in town. So if you had a bad expereince there, you have no where to go...... Actually, I intended my comments in humor, but can see now that they could be misinterpreted. Please accept my apologies, OhioMike.

I'm not sure where or how many clubs in Grafton, Ohio, but rclark are correct that you can learn to fly using simulators. Landing is another thing, however. Most of them still have a ways to go in that area.

I would suggest contacting one of the club officers to see if they can hook you up with an instructor. Just showing up at the field hoping to get some instruction can be very frustrating. It may have been that they didn't know they had a student waiting. It's always best to make an appointment for instruction, if possible.

Barring that, the AMA does have an Intro Pilot Program that hooks students up with local experienced pilots and instructors.

Daren

Daren

Feb 20, 2004, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Shortman
What would happen if you were to hit someone else? You would be covered. This is why they wouldn't cover your buddy; it was a self-inflicted wound. Imagine the cost if they did. Everyone who cut themselves with an exacto knife would file a claim. Had his airplane hit someone else, that's a different story.

If you hit another AMA member, as secondary insurance, they would pick up where your primary policy leaves off, unless you don't have a primary policy that covers your accident, then AMA is your primary policy.

Similarly, AMA does not cover one member suing another over an accident. They will cover any cost incurred as a result of the accident, but if you want to sue said member for damages, pain and suffering, etc., you're on your own.

Daren

Shortman

Feb 20, 2004, 12:40 AM

Yeah, makes sense, but man, he lost 2 fingers and they didn't even say anything back.

Steven

Daren

Feb 20, 2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Shortman
Yeah, makes sense, but man, he lost 2 fingers and they didn't even say anything back. While I can only imagine the horror of losing apendages, I'm not sure what the AMA was supposed to say. There is an inherent and accepted risk with model airplanes, especially when dealing with the business end.

Daren

mkirsch1

Feb 20, 2004, 12:58 PM

I agree with Daren. Really, would an official AMA band-aid, or Dave Brown himself kissing the boo-boo make things any better?

Ron van Sommeren

Feb 20, 2004, 07:32 PM

The term third party liability insurance comes to mind :D

This kind of discussion probably takes place all over the world, over and over again: KNVvL (Netherlands), DMFV and DAeC (Germany), BMFA (United Kingdom), FFAM (France) ... If you want to brighten up a dull Sunday afternoon of flying, bring up electric versus glow, castor versus synthetic or the AMA and it's counterparts :D

Groeten ;) Ron

OhioMike

Feb 21, 2004, 12:39 AM

AMA is a business..Successful business'es do one thing and one thing well, Reduce their own liability. I dont blame anything on the AMA for my lack of success amongst a handfull of jerks who knew exactly why i was there so many saturdays waiting for someone out of the goodness of their own heart to teach me to fly. What surprised me was their lack of enthusiasm in the possiblity of takeing some ignorant slobs plane and flying it at his expense. Even augering it in for the joy of doing so and then blameing his poor workmanship! So i sold the plane to a coworker who wanted to get into RC and started building RC ships for 10 years. No need to learn to land with those;) Getting back into this hobby i realized what i hated most was the ear splitting scream and the oil all over eveything after wards. Electric for me! And, i dont need to fly at someone elses leisure or approval! I agree with the need for an economic safety net in our litigation happy world today! The AMA may indeed be the best way to achieve that, the problem is i think they realize that as well and the steady increase in cost, small as it may be reflects this. How many claims do they get to substantiate the yearly increase every year? There are not that many people in this hobby! With CL flying and model rocketry, well the numbers may start adding up, but the claims i suspect are much smaller than term life insurance which probaly pays more claims per year yet cost a whole lot less per year! Usually! Of course, your insurance company doesnt send you a fancy membership card, a magazine each month, and then offer to link you up with a "local club member" to teach you to fly! I wonder if their listing for "local club members" are the same ones i not to long ago learned nothing from?

akmoose43

Feb 21, 2004, 03:55 AM

AMA does a lot more than just provide insurance. I like the insurance, but I also like the other stuff they do like lobbying the FCC for radio frequencies, supporting flying fields, etc.

leccyflyer

Feb 21, 2004, 04:31 AM

I'm moving this one over to the AMA forum.

Brian

wallasan10

Feb 21, 2004, 04:34 AM

Bravo!

Allons, Randy

J_R

Feb 21, 2004, 11:45 AM

For those of you that want to better understand the AMA insurance, read the information in the 2004 Charter Renewal Kit on the AMA website. It’s a long document, but most is about the insurance. http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/memberservices.asp?sid=2541B6E72759474DA88831D0D2C 92500

There are a few things in this thread I would like to address.

Each AMA member is covered by three policies. A theft/fire policy for models, a medical/accident policy for model related injuries, and a liability policy. Each require that you adhere to the AMA Safety Code to be covered. The Safety Code should be read as “Exclusions to AMA Insurance Coverage”. All of these coverages are explained in the above document, or the Membership Manual at the same link. There are also limits on each policy as to what will be paid.

First, the AMA does have medical coverage for modeling related injuries (including exacto cuts). Since no details were given in the incident where fingers were lost, I have no idea what happened. All of the AMA insurance polices are “excess” policies. That means that any insurance you have, other than the AMA coverage comes first. If there is no other coverage, they become primary. In the case of the medical coverage, there is now a $750 deductible. Carl Maroney, at AMA HQ handles the claims, along with his assistant, Ilona. Shortman, if I were your buddy, I would call Carl. I have never heard of a claim being denied by the AMA when the AMA was the insurer that should be paying. Did he, perhaps, have other personal medical coverage that is primary? Were his activities within the bounds of the Safety Code?

Daren, the AMA does cover one member suing another when the AMA liability coverage is involved, with the exception that there is no coverage for one family member suing another. That exception is basic liability law and is not specific to AMA coverage. As a matter of fact, the coverage of one member injuring another is the scenario for having liability insurance. There is no coverage for the destruction of models or equipment. If a plane hits other models in the pits, or there is a midair, there is no coverage, for instance. Again, this is all addressed in the above document.

Here is another link to the AMA site showing the summary of claims in 2003
http://www.modelaircraft.org/templates/ama/PDF-files/530.pdf

One last thought, for all of you that are AMA members. The AMA is a non-profit, educational, IRS 501 (c) 3 corporation. The AMA is us, not someone else out to make a profit. The AMA leaders are elected, unpaid, volunteers. (Yes, the HQ staff is paid).

J_R

Feb 21, 2004, 12:26 PM

Now. On to the subject of AMA clubs.

The AMA charters clubs. They do not tell clubs how they must be run. That is left to the members of the clubs. There are some basic rules. No discrimination on the basis of race, sex, etc, they must have club by-laws and operate within those by-laws, and within the AMA by-laws, and they must operate within the AMA Safety Code. The AMA does not tell a club that it may not limit the number of members. It does not tell the club it must train newbies. It does not tell the club that it must allow glow, or electric, or FF or CL, or anything else. The AMA does not tell the club how to operate. That is up to the club.

Some clubs are populated by members that are somewhat less than helpful. Some clubs have members that go out of their way to be helpful. Some clubs are on private land, others are on public land. The AMA owns only one field, the one in Muncie. The rest of the fields are in the realm of clubs and all of the good and bad things the members of those clubs do with those fields. The AMA has no control over who flies at chartered club sites. Some clubs will allow almost anyone with an AMA card to fly. Others will not let anyone who is not a club member fly. Some, generally on public land where the powers that be dictate terms, will allow anyone to fly, AMA membership or not. It seems that most clubs have some guest privileges for those holding an AMA card, but, it is not required. There are about 2500 clubs and about 2500 different sets of club rules. The AMA makes some programs available, such as the Intro Pilot Program to train pilots. It (the AMA) does not require that any club must take advantage of AMA programs.

Something new.

Forever, RC pilots have trained newbies. It was done as giving something back to the hobby. In the last few years, something new happened. Not park flyers in particular, but, ARFs in general. An instructor would take his time and effort to train a newbie. The idea was that the newbie would continue in the hobby and eventually give back to the hobby. With the advent of ARFs, a new situation developed. A pilot could, without much of an investment in time and effort, buy a plane and show up at the field. The only requirement was that he have the money to buy the aircraft. After spending countless hours with the newbie, the instructor would pronounce the newbie sufficiently trained to solo. It all too many cases, shortly thereafter, the new pilot would crash his plane, never to be seen again. The commitment to the hobby was never there. The instructors have gotten frustrated. What is the point of spending time and effort, only to have the new pilot disappear and go on to stamp collecting?

Starting this year, the AMA will now provide insurance for paid, casual, instructors (not businesses). This is something that had never been provided. For the newbie in a hurry, the one that never spent 6 months building his first plane, the one in a hurry, he will have an option. Pay the instructor for his attention. In the past, when the time and effort was invested by the newbie, he was more patient and not in much of a hurry to crash his creation. It is anticipated that the traditional free instruction will still be there for the newbie with patience, and that more instructors will be willing to help him. For the folks that want instant gratification, the investment of a few more dollars will buy it.

ctdahle

Feb 21, 2004, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Weisse Luft
I don't mind paying for the benefits of membership but what I do object is to clubs that exist on community property (parks, former landfills, flood impoundment areas etc) that require membership to fly. This should be a concession type operation to defray costs of facilities and general admission required. I wouldn't even mind paying in advance for 30 days of flying rights but to require someone to fork over $300 for a year's worth of flying privledges?

Just playing with numbers, $300 a year times 25 flyers = $7,500. Asphalt ALONE for our new strip, not including the labor and equipment to lay it was over $30,000.

If you have a start up area, a sunshade, a porta potti, a storage shed, and someone who cuts down the weeds a couple of times a year, I'd say $300 a year is a pretty good deal.

Assume your local closed landfill or what ever constructed a gate facility and hired a high school kid at minimum wage to collect a daily admission fee to your local "community field". Assuming that the field was "open" only 3 days a week, wages, taxes and W/C alone would run at least $15,000 annually, and each member of a 25 member club would need to shell out 4 bucks daily JUST to pay for the ticket taker.

Do you really think that they would collect enough to pay for the field improvements gate house and the highschool kid to man it?

Well-run clubs build, maintain, and constantly improve fields whether they are on public or private property. They also put some money into savings against the day when they WILL have to build a new facility.

If you are only paying $300 annually to fly, you are getting a bargain. If you are paying less, I'd keep real quiet about it if I were you.

Hal Ray

Feb 21, 2004, 03:42 PM

Park land,

The Kalamazoo T-Birds have a field in a county park, the county only lets the club use this land if we all buy a $15 park pass and the club has to have liability insurance( AMA ). This was old farm land, the county told us what part to use and that was all they did.
The club had to cut brush, fill in two dead furrows, smooth the flying and parking areas, plant grass, put in a drive to the park road with a gate and a sign.
The club pays to have the flying and pit areas mowed , a member mows the parking area and another member brush hogs the tall stuff.
The club duz (does) not pay any other money to the county. If you were to show up with a up to date AMA card and would follow the field rules you could fly there a few times a year and nothing would be said, come alot and you would be asked to join the club to share the costs, yearly dues are $50.
There was a insurance claim, a plane put a hole in a warehouse roof next to the park, the guy flying was a renter so the AMA insurance paid it all, think it was over $3000.
Very, few ( I don't even know any) bad apples in the T-Birds, I don't know all of the over 80 members but the ones I do know are all helpful to anyone. They keep a eye on someone new and if you need help they help you, if you know what you are doing they don't get in your way. They all will talk to you if you want to talk.

It's not realy fair to feel you have the right to use a club field on public land if your taxes are not being used to mantain that field.

We all need the AMA to protect our frequencys and to provide the insurance we need to have a field on private or public land.

All clubs are not bad, sometimes there are other clubs nearby,you have to look around for for them.

HRH

Daren

Feb 21, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by OhioMIke
I dont blame anything on the AMA for my lack of success amongst a handfull of jerks who knew exactly why i was there so many saturdays waiting for someone out of the goodness of their own heart to teach me to fly. What surprised me was their lack of enthusiasm in the possiblity of takeing some ignorant slobs plane and flying it at his expense. Even augering it in for the joy of doing so and then blameing his poor workmanship! So i sold the plane to a coworker who wanted to get into RC and started building RC ships for 10 years. No need to learn to land with those ;)Mike,
Earlier I made a poor attempt at humor, so this time I'll try for a good attempt at being serious.

I think you may need to adjust your expectations over exactly what your membership (both club and AMA) buys you.

Did you attempt to get to know the other members?

Did you attend any meetings?

Did you contact the club officers to see if they could hook you up with any instructors?

If the answers to these questions are no, then who is really to blame here?

Club membership is a fraternity of individuals who share an interest in the same hobby. It seems from your comments that these fellow members somehow owed you flying lessons simply because you joined the club and showed up at the flying field. This is not the case.

As a former club instructor (4+ years; dozens of sucessfully soloed students) I will say that it takes a commitment on both sides to learn to fly. Given your present attitude, why would any of the "jerks", as you call them want to help you? This strikes me as similar to one student I had who also felt I "owed" him flying lessons simply because he joined the club.

He arrived early in the morning (knowing full well that I usually arrived mid-morning) and was upset that I wasn't there to greet him and jump right in with the lessons. Nevermind that I was giving up my free time to help him (club instructors VOLUNTEER their time).

Because I only fly once a week, giving up half of that time is something I normally didn't mind because in the process I also became friends with my students. I was happy to see this student (and his attitude) fall by the wayside.

I think you need to ask yourself, "Why did you join the club?" Was is to find someone to teach you how to fly, or was it to spend time with like minded individuals? From the bitterness you're expressing here, it sounds like the answer is the former.

Daren

aeropenguin

Feb 22, 2004, 07:25 PM

At least it's only $1 for those of us lucky enough to be under 19 :D
I'll probably stop paying for AMA once I have to pay the full $60 or whatever it will be in 5 or so years...
BTW, Kenny, check your PM box...
Thanks!
-Michael

OhioMike

Feb 24, 2004, 04:55 AM

Well.....I guess you told me Darien! By the way SA...the very questions you asked were all spoken of in both post. I guess you can talk it, you just cant read it! As far as all volunteers and spending time out of kindness of their own hearts! Well, when your asking for dues and in the same breath you say, "Be there every Saturday and some one will be more than happy to teach you to fly"....really meant, thanks for the dues! As far as your once a week flying while still volunteering to teach others to fly on that once a week day. Why did you offer if you knew ahead of time you wouldnt be there for those students? And if they seemed anxious, as i'm sure you were when you first had the opportunity to learn to fly, why would that bother you so much? I'm betting your the very type of inflated ego that i have already spoken of! Park flyers and easier to understand radios and flight simulators, has saved the hobby from contradictory, arrogant ass's like you and the members of the Lorain County Radio Control Club. But then, thats just MHO.

Don Sims

Feb 24, 2004, 06:12 AM

Gents, please follow the site rules and treat each with respect or this thread will be closed.

Thank you!
Don

OhioMike

Feb 24, 2004, 06:50 AM

Your right...i apologize to Darien and all those insulted by my remarks. I was right to think them, just not print them. Again i apologize to all and Darien.

Daren

Feb 24, 2004, 04:56 PM

Thanks Mike. What ever happened to your friend who bought your model? Did he learn to fly?

Daren

Jim Ryan

Feb 25, 2004, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by OhioMIke
I started my Model flying experience with a local "Glow" flyers club and going thru the bit of getting AMA membership and becomeing a member of this local club......I went to the meetings that were more about the achievements of a few and the usual pats on the back by a few for a few!, then about teaching anything to anybody.....They said "Show up at the field with your plane and the instructors, who are "Always there" will "Willingly teach you how to fly". I did! They didnt! They were a bunch who mostly flew expensive Helicopters and Pattern planes and above all didnt have time to teach this "New guy" how to fly! 6 trips or more to the field without a single person even showing the slightest bit of interest in teaching anyone anything, except of course the usual pats on the back on the fellas who were there and just flew thier fantastic glow plane to new heights in RC flight glory! I realized finally, i have better chance of learning to fly the Space shuttle from my mom then these folks takeing the time for anybody!!! There went my club membership and my AMA membership. I wont join another club. I still debate to this day about the real benefit of AMA membership. Sure, you can fly at all these clubs fields with AMA membership!! right!

I can't speak on the subject of clubs in the Cleveland area, but I can tell you that at GCRCC in Cincinnati, this simply would not happen. This club has been successful for three important reasons:

1. They have a first-class flying field (featured on a recent segment on DIY's Radio Control Hobbies program).

2. They have an outstanding air show each year, which allows them to showcase themselves to the public.

3. Most importantly, newcomers are greeted with open arms, and the club has a well-organized instruction program.

I've belonged to several clubs over the years (usually more than one at any given time). Some have been better than others, but NONE was anything like what you describe. I would note that the reception you get when you approach a new club depends in part on YOU.

In the end, Mike, your complaints are really grievances against your local club, not the AMA. And I believe strongly that those who avoid RC clubs are missing out on the potential for a lot of fun, education and friendship. But that's just my opinion...

Jim

Jim Ryan

Feb 25, 2004, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by OhioMIke
Well.....I guess you told me Darien! By the way SA...the very questions you asked were all spoken of in both post. I guess you can talk it, you just cant read it! As far as all volunteers and spending time out of kindness of their own hearts! Well, when your asking for dues and in the same breath you say, "Be there every Saturday and some one will be more than happy to teach you to fly"....really meant, thanks for the dues! As far as your once a week flying while still volunteering to teach others to fly on that once a week day. Why did you offer if you knew ahead of time you wouldnt be there for those students? And if they seemed anxious, as i'm sure you were when you first had the opportunity to learn to fly, why would that bother you so much? I'm betting your the very type of inflated ego that i have already spoken of! Park flyers and easier to understand radios and flight simulators, has saved the hobby from contradictory, arrogant ass's like you and the members of the Lorain County Radio Control Club. But then, thats just MHO.

Having read the rest of this thread, Mike, I'm going to make a sincere suggestion:

How you're received by the members of a club has as much to do with YOU as it does with them. Your whole demeanor in this thread, including your statements to Daren, a fellow who's shared a great deal of knowledge on this discussion board over the years, speaks volumes.

If you remove that chip from your shoulder and shed the notion that the members OWE you something, you might have more success at the local field.

Jim

Daren

Feb 25, 2004, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by OhioMIke
Park flyers and easier to understand radios and flight simulators, has saved the hobby from contradictory, arrogant ass's like you and the members of the Lorain County Radio Control Club. But then, thats just MHO. Hmmm, could this really be the same club?!

GETTING STARTED (http://www.lcrc.org/getting%20started.htm)
LC/RC TRAINING PROGRAM (http://www.lcrc.org/Training%20program.htm)

Are you sure you spoke to a club officer about learning how to fly?

Daren

Daren

Feb 25, 2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Jim Ryan
And I believe strongly that those who avoid RC clubs are missing out on the potential for a lot of fun, education and friendship. But that's just my opinion...I agree! Although I only maintain membership with one club, the JRMC Flyers of Camp Pendleton (http://jmrcflyers.com), the SoCal R/C flying community is pretty small, so flying at the contests and fly-ins has brought me many other flying buddies.

Our club training program maintains a message to the Marines stationed on base that if any Marine wanted to come up and take flying lessons, the club provides instructors, airplane, buddy box, fuel and commraderie. The students only have to show up (where they get to take care of the airplane including fueling, starting, and cleaning up ). :D

We also ask them to make the commitment that once they start, they stick with it to the day they solo (barring being shipped out, of course). Once they soloed, they could no longer fly the club trainer. We then supervised their transition to solo flying on their models until they were safe and proficient then cut them loose.

For a while, it became known that a student or potential student (had to be an active duty Marine stationed on base) who wanted to try their hand at R/C could show up and fly. Dan and I always had at least one (sometimes two) trainer with us, charged and ready for a day's flying.

Some days we had two trainers going, three students deep each! Mostly it was like a big party with Marines taking turns fueling, starting and flying and lots of laughs in between.

Daren

p.s. Thanks for the support. :)

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 19, 2004, 01:53 AM

The AMA web site declares over 170,000 members. At $58 per that is at least $9,860,000 gross per year. But lets knock it down to $9,500,000 to cover junior and other lower cost memberships.

The PDF that was pointed to declares an expenditure of $1,700,000 per year for insurance expenses. Or about 18% of the gross.

So about $11 of a membership goes toward insurance. When the membership was $48 about $7 went to insurance. About 15%.

Round the insurance costs up to $2,000,000 to cover admin costs and then ask yourself where the excess, $7,500,000 goes to. A magazine most throw away? Museum expansion? Delta Dart programs? Or the $40,000 worth of yearly scholarships? Maybe the plastic membership cards? How about that fancy Muncie flying site 95% of the members never use.

Wait! Another "Save the Frequencies" crusade! Broadband over power lines. This should be good for a $100,000 or two to grease the lobbyists pockets. If the AMA really cared about safety of the radios used for RC it would have forced a change over to spread spectrum years ago. But this would have taken their second reason for being; the "Save the Frequencies Crusade, forever out of their hands.

How many members voted in the last counsel elections? 20%? 15%? The only reason 80% or more RC flyers have AMA is the nebulous insurance. Reason For Being Number One and membership trap.

J_R

Mar 19, 2004, 02:24 AM

First, if you are an AMA member, you can get exact numbers in the Member's Only Section. The 2002 Financial Statement is there. The 2003 Statement should join it in a few weeks.

About 30,000 of the 170,000 members are juniors. Giving somewhat less in revenues than what was indicated. The Liability Insurance for the membership is only a small part of the insurance picture. If you chase down the numbers in the Financial Statement, you will find that if you allocate it to the adult members it comes out to closer to $6 per adult member. (The kids so not help defray the cost). HOWEVER... the first $250,000 of each claim is self insured by the AMA. The costs of that cost about $12 per adult, giving a total cost, just for liability insurance of about $18 per adult.

The IRS status of the AMA requires that a newletter be sent to the membership. Model Aviation Magazine serves as that newsletter. MA loses money, as evidenced in the Financial Statement. The cost per adult member is about $7 per year. Most clubs can not produce a newsletter for their membership for less than that.

If you go through and analize the audited Financial Statement, you will find yourself hard pressed to find more than $3 of an adult membership left for the competition side of Muncie. The HQ and museum have to exist somewhere and it is reasonable to take a percentage of the costs of that as necessary.

It is illegal for the AMA to lobby, because of it's IRS status. Although they can submit briefs to agencies such as the FCC, they may not actively lobby them. The most they can do is to encourage the membership to contact the FCC.

All of the numbers are in the statement and leave no cause to speculate where the funds come from or where they go.

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 19, 2004, 10:07 AM

If only members can access the financial statements then this is a violation of their nonprofit status and good cause to file a challenge to that status.

A 100 page glossy magazine is not what is required buy the nonprofit status. A comprehensive annual report on the current financial and governing officials status is. This could be accomplished in less than six pages. Much cheaper than the glossy magazine.

"The MA looses money..."? Hardly! The P&L of the magazine is the cost of doing business. If profits were seriously the goal then MA would have folded long ago. The AMA has more than enough money to burn. If they didn't they like any other "business" would not be able to continue. A contrived statement -- intentional redirection.

Your total insurance cost per member is not correct. When a claim is filed the insurance company, in this case the AMA, has to set aside a base amount of funds in leu of settlement. Not all of the set aside may be drawn upon. So the remainder is transferred back to the general fund. You need to check and see what this is. 80% return to the general fund is typical.

Only encourage members to contact the FCC? What's wrong with the radio mfg's working with the FCC? They have as much if not more at stake. Wait! I get it. The radio mfg's do all the hard work and the AMA takes the glory.

Since the insurance is the only reason over 80% of the membership joins (Reason For Being Number One) and the AMA doesn't want radio safety so they can resurrect the "Save the Frequencies" crusade to justify their "Reason For Being Number Two"; the remaining dollars after the insurance and annual reporting costs are just gravy -- a retirement program for few select ancient modelers.

J_R

Mar 19, 2004, 11:16 AM

You are correct. Anyone may inspect the AMA statements. All you have to do is go to Muncie and ask. For the rest of us that are members, the AMA makes the information available on thier site in the Members Only Section. There is no legal requirement that the AMA bear the costs of providing anyone, outside of Muncie with copies, although they do publish the Statement in MA as a service to the membership.

MA: The point is, that although MA does lose some money, it reduces the cost to the membership that would have to be bourne by a newsletter. In other words, it costs the membership less to recieve MA than it would a straight newsletter because some of the costs are covered by revenues such as advertising. Again, the audited numbers are in the Financial Statement.

The insurance numbers I quoted are, 1) from the 2002 statement (and getting a little long in the tooth, but the best available) and 2) the costs of liability insurance for the membership, clubs and landlords (not to be confused with the costs of ALL insurance). Since no specific amout is set aside from the dues for insurance in the accounting process, no case can be made for excess. HOWEVER, it is obvious that, in the past there have been excess revenues from dues. That shows up as the Muncie site. The money was accumulated of a VERY long period, as was primarily raised when it was necessary for the AMA to self insure ALL claims itself. It is not current totally self insured. Whether Muncie should have ever been done is another question... one I am not entirely supportive of.

I am sure the raido manufacturers have thier own agenda and don't need the urging of the AMA to know when to contact the FCC.

I think your contention about 80% is incorrect. I think it is more like 85-90%. That is one of the reasons the voter turnout is only about 15%. You can, however, just as well draw the conclusion that the debatable 85% of the membership are not interested in the workings of the AMA... they don't vote. This would seem to indicate that the huge majority of members simply don't care, pay their dues, and just want to fly. A vote for apathy? I think so. Try talking about the politics or the operations of the AMA at a club field, if you want to be ignored and see eyes glaze over.

Now, the last statement you made is another matter. The leaders of the AMA are NON-paid, elected, volunteers. Yes, there is a retirement program for the HQ staff, as with most businesses this size, but, those people simply work for a living like most of us do. The leadership, in the form of the Exectutive Council (EC) has NO retirement plan.

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 19, 2004, 01:21 PM

Was not referring to an established retirement plan. The perks that the counsel members get add up to thousands per year. Like the winter AMA California thing. Nice to get out of the snow. Now that it's been moved inland to Ontario another show has popped up at the Anaheim convention center! Oh well, the Northrops made out like bandits.

I was being a bit conservative with the 80% but will gladly accept your higher numbers!

Funny that the AMA is so recalcitrant with it's fiscal statements. Not so at other national non profits. You can find them openly on their internet sites.

I don't think "member" is the correct description. Implies that those who pay have some say in the organization. I would tend to go with subscriber. After all it is just the insurance that holds the whole Muncie mess together.

We have had some tense AMA discussions at the city park open access flying site. Most of the club members don't care as well as the independent electric flyers. But a few are almost militant about it.

Still don't buy the looses money argument. It takes what it takes to print it. If revenues don't cover all of it so what. By the way unlike many others I think it's a decent coverage of all of modeldom. Free flight nodics was fun till I discovered that with radio control I could land the darn thing at my feet rather than chase it for ten miles.

J_R

Mar 20, 2004, 09:59 AM

I know that I come accross as some kind of blind AMA supporter, which is not the case. I have, from time to time been called an AMA basher. At the same time, I try to deal in facts and deal with misconceptions of many. I have absolutely no interest in any AMA position, elected or appointed.

I do believe the financial statements. I find it hard to believe that any CPA would put his livelyhood on the line for a few dollars and certify an audit for something as small as the AMA. They show things that I am sure that the AMA is not fond of, such as losses in the stock market one year. On the other hand the EVP has done an amazing job investing the funds and making money with the money the AMA has, during his tenure.

The AMA members have one right, and one right only, and that is to vote. There are methods for input, but, there is no assurance that the input will see the light of day. I agree that the insurance is the financial engine that drives the AMA. It existed before insurance, and would continue to exist without it, but with a small fraction of the membership. By the same token, most clubs would find it impossible to duplicate the insurance the AMA supplies to the club's landlords and a huge percentage of fields would be lost.

A couple of years ago, I realized that the EC is not unapprochable. I found that these guys are open and willing to talk. Man, are they willing to talk. Call Dave Brown, or talk to him at a show. He is good for an hour every time.

One of the things the AMA does very well is help in flying site retention. They will supply more help then you can imagine. They will not find a field for you, but will help once you have found one. Unfortunately, no one seems to realize this. Torrey Pines was saved, in our area, not too long ago. Someone has to contact the AMA for them to realize there is a problem. All too often, clubs go to the powers that be and get themselves in more trouble than the AMA can handle, before they contact the AMA. Mile Square is the perfect example. The clubs ticked off the county supervisors and made enemies of them, then contacted the AMA. The war was lost in that first battle.

The show in Anaheim started before the move to Ontario was announced. So far, it has primarily been a RC car show. There is also a new show in Vegas that shows some promise. The AMA made a few bucks on the Ontario show this year. When it was in Pasadena, it was virtually a breakeven proposition.

Now for something I can not prove, and each of you would need to talk to the EC members about and make up your own mind as to it's truth. I have developed friendships with a couple of EC members that are putting out upwards of $10,000 a year from their own pocket to serve on the EC. Most of these guys have reached a point in their lives where they want to give something back to the hobby. To be sure, some of them own hobby related businesses and make a few bucks that way, but, who better to know what modelers want and need than modelers?

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 20, 2004, 11:55 AM

I have no dispute as to the sincerity of most of the EC. However I have seen this small gain in "power" plant a small seed of corruption that grows to the point of just being visible. Coupled with the Cosmic Money Machine of the captured AMA subscribers and you get a bit heady. The constant growth and hiring at Muncie is a prime example. Some would call this an investment. It's not because of the types of buildings and the zoning of the area. Does not take that many people to make plastic membership cards and send them out once a year.

As to finding other site insurance; a few clubs have done this when the SFA thing was going on. Several found it much cheaper per member than the members AMA dues. So it's not impossible to cover one's behind.

The Mile Square fiasco was the corrupt county supervisors. Regardless of the $50,000 that was thrown at it by the local flyers and the overt violation of the tenets of the Navy's agreement in turning over the property, they were hell bent to make another golf course out of the empty land. The few letters the AMA wrote bounced off like water on a duck. Note that the "local flyers" included lawyers and retired judges.

The Pasadena show did make money before the AMA bought it. However by folding it into the non profit the AMA is able to write off all of the airfare and lodgings for the EC's winter get away. This more than ate up that profit and then some.

Guess you could call the serious questioning of the AMA bashing. Then driving with one's eye's closed is bashing too.

J_R

Mar 21, 2004, 02:28 AM

There are a couple of people on the EC that I would like to see replaced. Having said that, this forum has proved itself to be less than a good place to debate AMA politics. It is too contentious a subject for the nature of RC Groups.

Much the same can be said for the SFA. There was a reason it died, and it was not the hands of the AMA that brought that on, although the AMA did finish the battle.

The AMA did much more than send a few letters about Mile Square. The money spent by the AMA was in excess of the amount spent by the "local flyers". It seems obvious that, as I stated earlier, the local group did, indeed, alienate the supervisors. It's not amazing to me that when El Toro became available that hoops were presented to jump though. Simple thought, if you are going to try to kill the king (supervisors) you darn well better not miss... and the "local flyers" certainly did miss. The end result was a rather high "rent" paid by the AMA chapter at El Toro. Could it have been free if not for the previous actions of the "local modelers"? We will never know. Why in the world did the "local modelers" turn down an alternative site in the early days of the battle? There were soooooooo sure they would win, they made errors, that's why. Leave us not forget, the "local modelers" lost in ever court in CA, including the CA Supreme Court. Apparently the advice they relied on was less than stellar.

The IMS show did ok. Like the MAC show, it was headed downhill when the AMA bought it. Personally, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. As long as it breaks even or makes a few bucks, it's a show in So Calif. All I am sure of is that manufacturers do not participate in ANY show in California like they once did, but, seem to be returning, albiet slowly, since the AMA took over. The show sucks since it's hayday, but, that was long before it's purchase.

Something I am very much in favor of is growing the AMA. There is strength in numbers. The only way we will be able to exert pressure on political bodies is with larger numbers. The only way we will get more sites in urban areas is with numbers.

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 21, 2004, 11:15 AM

You can not blame the Mile Square Modelers. I've had too much contact with the Orange county Supervisors over the last 15 years on other subjects both professionally and personally. The Navy was very clear about what percentage of use the land could be put too. The county had already over stepped the percentage that could be used for income and figured they could push it all the way. They did.

I know of one local donation of $25,000. Then how do you count the time the locals put in. How much did the AMA contribute? Or is that locked up with the P&L statements and the flying site coords?

The El Toro fiasco has many interests stirring it's boiling cauldron even today. The Great Park will never happen because there is no funding for it's development and definitely no money for it's maintenance if developed.

I remember when southern California and two marvelous hobby shows! Even saw Mark Smith shred a .40 power plane through a light pole at Anaheim!

Yes the SFA literally died. Just after the guy that started it died. He was all wound up in suing the EC and staff of the AMA for defamation. IMHO a legitimate claim. Notice that after this cooled off the liability insurance for the EC and staff was increased about 500 percent. Of course the remarks about a certain pylon racer didn't help either.

So you don't think the AMA should be discussed on an AMA forum on a general modeling web site? Where do you discuss the AMA at John's Pool Hall down behind the city's sewer farm? You can't have an honest discussion by presenting only the good and not the bad and ugly.

J_R

Mar 21, 2004, 11:55 AM

Take a look at the early posts in this forum. The moderators had to step in on virtually every post. When I say politics, I mean the individuals. Not the policies or operations.

You continue to take the attitude that the guys are Mile Square were right. The fallacy of that is they lost in every court. They were not right. I have never seen a listing of the total costs to the AMA, but, they sent lawyers in and I have been told the bill approached $100,000 for the effort.

If you want more info on the SFA mess, message Red Schofield in the Battery Clinic. He has the proof that SFA was started for the sole purpose of suing the AMA for profit. He may even be monitoring this forum and post of his own accord.

Mark Smith, Larry Jolley, John Brown, Dave Thornberg, and Craig Foxgord and Joel Wurtz are all guys I flew with. Many of my thoughts were gleaned from Carl Goldberg, who was a member of a club I was president of back then. Frank Zaic got me my first AMA license as a kid. I started the Rosebowl Soaring Festival almost 30 years ago and CDed it thee times. Dave Peltz, former AMA D10 VP was another competitor I flew against often.

I am not new to the AMA and blindly supporting it. There are many things I do not like. The current, abused nomination process is an example. Rule 9 was an error. The autonomous flight rule is wrong. The action that almost stopped the new jet waiver rules was wrong. I felt the last dues increase should not have been made... that instead the burden should have been placed on clubs where 50% of the insurance claims are made. There is plenty to discuss. Yet... in the end, we need the AMA and we need to remember that the AMA is us.

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 21, 2004, 12:49 PM

Yes I do/did support the MS flyers. Just because court rullings went against their argument does not mean their arguments were wrong. A public park is there for the benifit of the whole community not weekend golfers that make the county money.

I have over 36 years of nostalgia too. Fond memories. But not as dear as seeing the ear to ear grin of a budding flyer after his/her first solo.

J_R

Mar 21, 2004, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by SoCalGliderFlyr
<SNIP>
I have over 36 years of nostalgia too. Fond memories. But not as dear as seeing the ear to ear grin of a budding flyer after his/her first solo. [/B]

Agreed... although now that I fly power as well, I prefer to be behind a bunker for that solo :)

SoCalGliderFlyr

Mar 21, 2004, 05:49 PM

Guess I should have put "successful" in the sentence.

50+AirYears

Jul 18, 2004, 03:26 AM

Daren, I'd like to thank you for your response to OhioMike on Feb 25. I am an officer of the mentioned club. I've been a member since 1977. I've been an officer for about 13 of the last 16 years. I was even an instructor for a couple years until business travel made it impossible for me to continue. At that time we had an instructor committee with people available nearly anytime 7 days a week, arrangements being made between the instructor and trainee. Thanks also for including the links to our website.

We currently have, I believe, over 120 members. We have topped 150. Our instructor program usually turns out at least 12 to 14 "A" levels per year. I joined the club as a FF and CL flier, and recieved my own "A" in less than three months. We have members flying everything from electric park flyers to IMAA large scalers and helicopters. We have made our field available in the past to a local SAM chapter for their contests. We are getting ready right now for our annual "Model Mania', for the general public. At our previous field, we even shut down R/C flying for a time so a couple members of the CFFS could do some trim flight on FAC Rubbber models the day before one of their contests.

In the time I've been in the club, we have had an occasional problem with either an instructor or a trainee not showing up for a scheduled session. Stuff happens. I don't recall anybody getting especially angry. I don't know what the particular situation was, but it is not normal business. If it was, I don't think we would have been around the area for over 50 years