What's with AMA? [Archive]

mkirsch1

Feb 04, 2004, 01:37 PM

For clubs in particular, the AMA is indispensible. They do most of the tedious paperwork necessary to provide an organized flying site. Finding people to do what little paperwork is necessary to run a club now is tough. Imagine how hard it would be if you had to do more than look at the color of a card on January 1st to confirm insurance status, or had to source an insurance policy for the landowner from a local source. Most clubs would disappear due to the work involved, and the increased cost. Without the clubs to maintain them, flying fields would disappear. Not everyone has access to a suitable flying space without resorting to a club. People would be forced to fly "rogue" until landowners and parks departments got wise and realized they're financially liable for any injuries or damage that happen on their land. "Insure me so I'm not liable for anything you do, or get off my land!"

Robert Hoffman

Feb 04, 2004, 02:21 PM

My guess would be that you membership[ is tangled up with all the last minute applications. I place mine in October and had it within a week.

Someone (I cannot remember who) once said this about Auto Insurance:
"Driving without it is a gamble that you will never need it, but then again buying it is a gamble that someday you will".

Kind of applies here as well. IMHO

Flyboone

Feb 04, 2004, 04:00 PM

Man I always just call and get someone right away. My card comes within two weeks just like they tell me. They do pay up when needed. Me and my best friend were flying PBF's last January, this was before we renewed are membership. So we were flying in the snow and it was really windy and we did not have insurance coverage. My friend went to launch his by hand and a gust of wind got it before he even let go. It ripped the coroplast where he was holding it and it came back and sliced through his glasses and into his head for about 4 or 5 big gashes. He had to have stitches and it ended up costing a lot of money in medical bills for the emergency room and all that. Well after it all happened he called AMA and renewned and explained to them what happened and was upfront in saying that it happened before he renewed. They ended up reimbursing him. So I say wow they really try to take care of us.

Jason

Greebe

Feb 04, 2004, 04:22 PM

Well I know my membership is intact. Still recieve Model Aviation and have access to AMA's member services, etc. But where is my card? Proof I am a current member! Hello AMA anyone up there with a pulse.

Last minute applications or not, they know there is a rush during December which only a few more part time staffers could pick up. It's not as if there isn't high unemployment in Muncie. Besides putting a member in a holding pattern for 6 weeks is both irresponcible and grossly inconsiderate.

CAFplanekid

Feb 04, 2004, 09:55 PM

Dont be trashing the AMA guys, its really a great organization. The tail tapping rule is there because that can be dangerous, and is just a case of CYA. They know people arent going to follow it. Plus, they're the only representation we have. The dues arent that much, the magazine is alright, and the insurance will pay for it many times over if you ever need it.

DadsDesigns

Feb 04, 2004, 10:48 PM

Hey Guys

Remember the national convention was just going on. Heck the probably left the lawn guy there by himself to answer the phones.

DadsDesigns

Feb 04, 2004, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by BrunswickOH
I joined hoping that the mag was at least good. I doubt that the insurance is really good for anyting, has anybody ever filed a claim?? Not have you heard of or know somebody but have you actually got a settlement from the AMA insurance??? I bet it would be like getting blood from a rock. Who know's maybe I'm wrong and there will be lots of posts of people that have had claims and there was no problem. Doubt it.

One thing to remember with your AMA card you can go to most all of the other AMA santioned clubs across the nation fly and know if something happens everyone is covered. Not to mention the flying site help they provide.

Flyboone

Feb 05, 2004, 12:33 AM

I'm sure you already know this, but even if you do not have your card yet, you are still covered if you have payed either over the internet or on the phone. If you absolutely have to have your # for a field to let you fly all you have to do is call and they can hook you up with it.

Jason

BillM

Feb 05, 2004, 12:46 AM

Keep in mind the AMA has a very limited staff and they are hard pressed this time of year. There are the membersip renewals-the charter renewals--and last but not least the inordinate number of trade shows this time of year. Add to this the normal daily routine that every business has and you can see that all in all they do a pretty good job.

BM

Billy Haynes

Feb 05, 2004, 01:21 AM

I got my renewal notice in Oct. I think. I mailed it off that very same day. I'm sure it was between 1week to 1 1/2 weeks when I recieved my new card. I know from experience not to wait till Dec/Jan, been there done that, had the same prob..... Now you know next year to get it done early :)
"I doubt that the insurance is really good for anyting, has anybody ever filed a claim??"
Every year they post a financial statement. Yes they do pay out for accidents, & yes it's secondary. The reason (from what I can tell) the membership rates increased was due to insurance rate increase. I feel it is cost effective......
"For clubs in particular, the AMA is indispensible"
I second that.

mkirsch1

Feb 05, 2004, 01:18 PM

Rule #9 isn't necessarily about tail tapping. The rule prohibits intentionally touching any part of the airplane, other than the landing gear, to the ground. The rule also includes "lawn mowing," "button bopping," and other maneuvers that involve intentionally making contact with the ground.

Rules like this are to protect US from the lawyers, not necessarily to protect spectators from wayward aircraft. A lawyer can use the fact that you were doing tail-touches, for example, to make a case for negligence (and a higher settlement) regardless of whether the tail-touching was the direct cause of the accident, or if the plane went out of control 5 minutes later. He can't prove that the tail touching caused the accident, but the burden of proof is on YOU. You can't prove that it didn't...

Nobody said you can't hover low, and... OOPS! I guess I got a little too low that time. OOPS! There I go again. OOPS! ;)

Before you go off on a tiraide about the AMA, pick up the phone and talk to your district VP about the issue that's bothering you. They're the ones that institute the policies, and they can explain the WHY to you. The AMA is not in the business of ruining everyone's fun; they're in the business of preserving as much fun as they can for as many people as they can in a society where people can drag your a-- into court for looking at them the wrong way.

Tilmanator

Feb 05, 2004, 01:19 PM

I am an AMA member only because I have to be to fly at the local field.

I appreciate the AMA as a lobbying organization to help us maintain our frequencies and as a unifying organazation for competitions.

However, I think the magazine stinks and I resent being forced to buy it. I have a personal Umbrella insurance policy that kicks in whenever my regular insurance doesn't. I don't want to be forced to buy insurance through the AMA.

At the very least, I wish the AMA would allow members to choice to skip the magazine and to get a few bucks off of the renewel fee.

There. We can't have a thread about the AMA without someone flaming them, can we?:mad:

Nowell York

Feb 05, 2004, 01:26 PM

The magazine is horrible. Save some money by going to a newsletter and hire some more lobbying or reduce the dues.

Greebe

Feb 05, 2004, 02:08 PM

I called AMA membership supervisor Colleen Pierce yesterday to find out what was up. Found that they dropped the ball someplace between the Verisign secure web order page and their manual processing.
Went on to say that they have had issues, server crashes, but did not leave out that one of their staffers could have royally goofed up.

Everything is fixed now and all is good. :)

Also chatted with her about Muncie in general having lived there temporarily between moves (house wasn't ready). I still can't believe the city counsel had all the trees downtown removed because of the pigeon droppings problem. Seems it's worse now than ever... and that new courthouse with the copper dome top is one heck of an eye sore because of them.

BillM

Feb 05, 2004, 02:17 PM

Since I did not bring it up I don't feel guilty about asking the question. What makes the AMA magazine so bad in some peoples eyes? Secondly do you know the primary purpose of the magazine? And last but not least do you actually read it?

BM

Robert Hoffman

Feb 05, 2004, 02:58 PM

Isn't the Magazine basically the "Club Newsletter" and is some sort of requiement to quantify themselves as such.

I just breeze through it and toss it if nothing catches my eye.

Tilmanator

Feb 05, 2004, 03:31 PM

I understand the concept of the magazine, but most of us have a specific interest in this hobby and the magazine caters to all the different aspects. The problem is that I only read the electric column, and maybe one feature article. I don't care about free flight, control line, etc. And those people may not care about electrics. Bottom line is that maybe 10% of the magazine appeals to me and I have to pay for the other 90% that is useless.

Also, I think Bob Kopski who writes the electric column is very knowledgable, but after writing it many years he has run out of ideas. After reading his columns, I usually find that I've learned nothing.

I throw the old magazines in a box and rarely look at them again. On the other hand, every one of my Quiet Flyer magazines has been read front to back many, many times.

Beachernaut

Feb 05, 2004, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Tilmanator
I understand the concept of the magazine, but most of us have a specific interest in this hobby and the magazine caters to all the different aspects. The problem is that I only read the electric column, and maybe one feature article. I don't care about free flight, control line, etc. And those people may not care about electrics. Bottom line is that maybe 10% of the magazine appeals to me and I have to pay for the other 90% that is useless.

I agree that only about 10% is usefull for some of us, but this magazine covers most of the hobby, and since electric is still not as popular as glow and gas, you can't expect to be catered to. Though it would be nice to be able to opt out of the magazine if you didn't want it.

Even without the magazine, the AMA could charge us $58 a year, and most of us would pay it. Heck, $58 a year is a whole lot less than I'm paying for any other insurance I've got, and I get a magazine that might have something I'm interested in.

hmmmm..... I'm going to have to call my car insurance guy, they seem to have forgotten my subscription to Hot Rod magazine.

What about being able to go anywhere in the country and find a field to fly at. Do you think those fields would exist without the AMA? Of course if the AMA didn't do it, someone else would, and they'd probably charge a lot more for the same thing without a magazine.

rclark

Feb 05, 2004, 03:59 PM

Personally I don't mind the magazine at all. I think it's neat to see what other aspects of the hobby are up to (FF,CL, Soaring, etc.) around the country (it broadens 'da mind ;) Ie. there is more to flying than just 'lectric ). Pictures of other Clubs and Planes.... Sure if only looking for 'specific' info, the magazine is lacking -- but I don't think that is it's intent. I like it because it is so 'broad' in its coverage. FWIW, I use Quiet Flyer, Fly RC, and E-Zone for my 'technical' info sources anyway :) .

megawatt

Feb 05, 2004, 10:11 PM

I called on Monday, and used my CC to renew membership for two years. Received my card in today's mail.:)

Can't beat that!

Jeff

BillM

Feb 06, 2004, 12:04 AM

Since I asked the question I will address somee of the objection and add a bit of my own views.
To those who read only the electric column--you are missing out on a lot of useful information on products and techniques that others use that can be used for electrics.
Objectors to the content of the electric column may not realize that there is a constant flow of new people in this hobby and what may be old hat to you is brand new information to them.
The club newsletter idea is pretty close to the true purpose of the magazine. There is a wealth of information in every issue about what the organization is doing to improve this hobby. There is also information about what the AMA insurance has paid and what is pending although this is really an annual report. Those who think the AMA insurance doesn't pay will have their eyes opened IF they read the report. I'll bet a lot of you were not aware that the AMA presents scholarships to deserving young members. There are also discounts available for eyeglasses.

As I said read the magazine in some depth and I think you will be surprised at what you may find.

BM

Billy Haynes

Feb 06, 2004, 12:08 AM

There are also discounts available for eyeglasses.
where ya find that at? Can it be used in conjunction with other insurance? I'm always up for saving a buck :D

easytiger

Feb 06, 2004, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by rkramer
there have been claims, most are incidental medical though, mainly for fields. (spectator trips on a hole and breaks a leg...)

the insurance isn't good for much, and is secondary to any other insurance you have anyway.

You know NOTHING of which you speak. Sorry to sound so harsh, but this is just totally false information.
They pay out a LOT of claims each year, ranging from stuff stolen out of people's cars to medical bills from people sticking their fingies into props, to a spectator getting hit by a plane and losing their eye, I mean...a LOT of claims. As a matter of fact, there are THREE full time people on staff just to deal with claims.
For MANY people, this is their primary insurance, as they do not have homeowners or renters insurance.

And another thing is this...they cover the SITE OWNER. Many clubs could not exist without that coverage. Your homeowners WILL NOT DO THIS.

fwilly

Feb 06, 2004, 11:15 AM

I don't mind the AMA. I just don't like Dave Brown. I don't like his responses to the letters that Gordo emailed him about rule 9. I don't like what he did to the turbine guys. I'll be voting for someone else. I almost bought some carbon fiber the other day, but put it back when I read who it was from.

rclark

Feb 06, 2004, 11:32 AM

fwilly, point me to Dave's response on Rule 9. I must have missed it . Thanks!

SlowRider

Feb 06, 2004, 12:09 PM

Yes, and what did he do to the "turbine guys"?

Andy

member73

Feb 06, 2004, 12:31 PM

A have to agree with a few others here. The AMA and its magazine has to represent all of it's members. There are plenty of published magazines that cater to more specific interests. I also think it serves a great service in presenting different aspects of the hobby that some of us may not learn about otherwise. I wonder how many die hard slimers will give electric a try at least in part because of something they read there?

As far as eliminating the mag and reducing your fees, the AMA is a club with officers and districts; it's necessary to get out certain information anyway. So they would still have to send out a newsletter. But if they combine the newsletter with a magazine, they get many more advertising dollars. I suspect that advertisers are paying a hefty bulk of the publishing/distributing fees. So once you consider that they are still going to have to send out a newsletter at least Bi-monthly and with very little advertising support, we may actually getting the magazine for free or nearly so. If you convince yourself of that fact, you'll realize it's not such a bad magazine after all. I did.

easytiger

Feb 06, 2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by SlowRider
Yes, and what did he do to the "turbine guys"?

Andy

Oh, NOTHING, except provide the leadership that:

Allowed turbines to be incorporated under AMA insurance in the first place...

Implemented a pilot proficency system that goes a long way towards stopping a guy who has $6000 to spare but no flying skills from coming to your field and making an incredible hazard to you, your family, your property, and your hobby...

Implemented a set of standards to make sure that turbines here in the US have a very high level of safety and won't throw turbine blades when they fail...

I mean, the list goes on and on. Notice this...we ARE flying turbines under the same $58 a year insurance that covers a Lite Stick. I count my blessings. It would have been a lot easier, and perhaps wiser, just to say "we cannot cover turbines", and not force the other 186,000 members to share the risk with the fewer than 1,000 wavier holders.

They did not ask for that much. 55 pound limit, .9-1 thrust ratio, 200 mph top speed, no dodgy plasma bags for tanks, brakes if the plane cannot sit still at idle, and a rudder to help keep planes from smashing into the pits on a bad takeoff run.
Oh, yeah...and some sort of pilot proficiency to make sure that you have at least the most basic skills to handle a plane like this before turning you loose.
I guess that was just too much to ask? That turbines got treated SOOOOOOOO badly by AMA?
Look...AMA is not the law. If you live near a local dry lake bed, or you own a large property, preferably with a paved runway, you can DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. You can fly a 500 pound B52 at 300 MPH, it's not AMA's problem.
But...if you want to get $2 millon of insurance for $58 a year, there are certain restrictions. That's called "risk management", it's the most basic precept of insurance. Deal with it.

Right now, there is a whole new set of turbine rules on hold at AMA. DB put a hold on those rules because there were some flaws. They will get amended and passed, sooner or later. There is a lot of good stuff in these new rules, including buddy box training, and currency for pilots. Are all these rules perfect? NO. Can we blame AMA? NO. These rules were brought to the EC by the jet community, and it is up to us to make rules that both sides can live with.

Next time you read some online garbage about DB, the AMA, turbines, whatever...take it all with a BIG grain of salt. There is a LOT of baloney floating around out there.

It's getting sickening already. In times that we need unity the most, we don't need people spreading false rumors about the AMA.

Here's a good example why:
Back around 1980, when AMA and a lot of good people had spent many years getting the FCC to grant us these fifty new frequencies we fly on, some club in California had the temerity to write a long letter to the FCC saying how we could NEVER have more than six frequencies, as anything more would lead to mass confusion and crashing everywhere. What if the FCC had denied us the frequencies? How does it look to government agencies, like Homeland Security, the FAA, and the like, when we can't even get our act together and stop fighting amongst ourselves? Maybe they will just call us a bunch of children and decide that THEY are better off just regulating ourselves.
If you have a problem, there is a process. You go to your VP and you state your case. Or you go to the AMA Insurance or technical or whatever, and get your answer straight from the source. Sometimes, the answer is not what you want to hear. DEAL WITH IT.
The tail touching thing is a perfect example. It was voted on, and a majority of elected officials said "no tail touching". That's DEMOCRACY IN ACTION. You elect people, and they vote for you. If you think you have an idea that will allow tail touching, while still adressing the safety concerns of both the EC and the insurer, WE ARE ALL EARS. So is the EC. But just complaining online ain't going to do it.

That's my counterrant for the day!
:)

fwilly

Feb 06, 2004, 01:37 PM

Most the responses to the Rule 9 letters, or links to them are in the Pro Bro forum. I beleive in one of them it said that my Districts VP voted against it.

The way I understant it, the Turbine SIG had a deal worked out that the rest of the AMA officals agreed with then Dave Bown called an emergency meeting of some kind and railroaded the rest of the officials into agreeing with his ideas. I didn't follow it real close, since a turbine plane costs more than my truck, but thats what I heard, and even if its only partially right, it was still a rotten trick to pull. Just my Opinion. I wont be voting for him.

easytiger

Feb 06, 2004, 01:52 PM

It was NOT a "rotten trick to pull". You did NOT "follow it real close", by your own admission.

Dave Brown did the right thing. There were problems with these rules, and he knew that we would just being going around the block YET AGAIN over it. So, he used the powers that were given to him by the membership to call a vote to put those rules on hold until they can be worked out better.
He DID NOT "railroad the rest of the officials into agreeing with his ideas". Just NEVER HAPPENED.

He did the right thing. The rules need more thought and work. That's all there is to it.

Respectfully, and I do mean respectfully...you should educate yourself on these issues BEFORE forming an opinion. YOU have been "railroaded" into believing some of the dumb stuff that has been printed on the internet. A huge portion of it is totally, completely, FALSE.
I encourage you to learn more about this stuff, and then, when it comes time to vote, you will be making up your mind based upon the true facts, not internet hearsay. At that point, it's your call to vote for or against DB, all up to you, but at least you are making your decision based upon facts, not internet rumors.

artmonster

Feb 06, 2004, 02:00 PM

Some people jsut like to B**** about things......

The AMA is a great organization that helps promote our hobby in ways never imagined before.

And to provide insurance to flyers is a priviledge that we have no right to put down......without it ...we are on our own.

Also the AMA provides clubs with materials, and services neede to get going and to promote good will in the community.....not to mention programs for educating disadvantaged children, and to help people find an avenue to focus upon developing thier life.

I give a great big HATS-OFF to them.

and as for the magazine, it is a welcome resource for information. I subscribe to six different modeling magazines, and all of them are nothing more than glorified product review advertisements....but the AMA provides information about relevant hoby related activities, and brewakthroughs in ouyr position in the community.

.....enough said.......

....my two cents.

If you dont like the AMA....dont be a member.....it's your choice.....but dont fly near me please.........you can have a great deal of fun being responsible.........

fwilly

Feb 06, 2004, 02:02 PM

Even the way you put it, it still sounds like he was throwing a tantrum becasuse he did not get his way. It was Dave Brown opinion that there were flaws in the rules and based entirly on his opinion, the meeting was called and what had been voted on was not given a chance to work. NOT A DEMOCRACY

fwilly

Feb 06, 2004, 02:05 PM

I'm not bashing the AMA anymore, I'm bashing dave brown. I have decided that I have no problem with the AMA, and the idea behind it, just him.

easytiger

Feb 06, 2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by fwilly
Even the way you put it, it still sounds like he was throwing a tantrum becasuse he did not get his way. It was Dave Brown opinion that there were flaws in the rules and based entirly on his opinion, the meeting was called and what had been voted on was not given a chance to work. NOT A DEMOCRACY

Again, I say this respectfully...you and I are not having a personal tiff here at all...but you are completely incorrect about your assessment of this situation.

He was elected president of the EC because of his leadership skills. One of the things that he is tasked with doing is making sure that we are doing the right thing. He has the RIGHT, and the RESPONSIBILITY, to call for another vote. The EC could have VOTED and said "no, we like the rules as they stand". But they did NOT. They voted and said "we think we need to think these through some more".
He does not even GET a vote himself(Except to break a tie). He cannot MAKE them do anything.
Unless you really know what the issues WERE with the rules, like mandatory speed limiters and such, you really cannot say one way or the other if DB was wrong, right? I do beleive DB did the right thing, absolutely, and we will all be better off for it. A majority of the EC also felt the same way. That IS democracy in action.
There are going to be new turbine rules. No matter what they are, SOMEBODY is going to find fault with them. Oh, well. But these new rules are going to make things better and easier for anyone who is interested in turbine flying. Have a little faith, and have a little more doubt in what you read on the internet. For that matter, have doubt in what I MYSELF am saying. Give DB a call yourself, do some research, and make your own decisions.

fwilly

Feb 06, 2004, 02:58 PM

They did vote yes for them once and I think the reason they changed there mind wasn't becsause they had made a mistake the first time around, but because of dave brown blowing things out of proportion. I have read a lot of good arguments against speed limiters. The best one's point was that the person making the point had a plane that met the requirments for a speedlimiter, but didn't stand a chance of exceeding 200mph. The speed limiter would be dead weight, and would just make things more complicated.

PS almost forgot. I also don't want to turn this into a personal thing, and wont hold a grudge. These are just my opinions on DB.

easytiger

Feb 06, 2004, 03:19 PM

No, that's an oversimplification of things, bigtime. And it's a serious oversimplification of the speed limiter issue, too. There are many reasons why electronic speed limiters are not the solution. And, last I looked, they WERE part of that proposal, yes?
Dave Brown is representing 187,000 people, and facing a very tough post 9-11 insurance environment. Ask me, living in NYC, what insurance is like right now. I had Geico cancel my auto insurance on Sept 26, 01. They JUST DID NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH IT. New York is too risky for them.
With modelling, we face the very real possibility each year of finding that nobody will cover us at all, and we may be forced to go back to self-insurance, which happened before. So there need to be limits. I think 200 mph is fast enough a limit for AMA coverage...remember, again, that the coverage is shared by all. I bet if you polled the membership, they would say that 200mph is risky enough. If you want to do more, swell, you just have to get your own insurance or go out to the desert.
So, the question is, how can you enforce that limit? Honors system? Dunno about that. Go out to the field, you will see turbines that are way above the T/W limits, obviously so, and a few that are "wink wink" fifty five pounds. Awful lot of "fifty five pound planes out there. Some of which weigh a lot more...
So I'm not sure that we ARE able to be trusted with the "honors system" of enforcement. Where will that leave the whole membership, when a plane comes apart at 230mph and kills someone? What is our collective liability exposure when some lawyer finds out that A) we knew that there were risks and B) knew that the rules were not going to be enforced? I mean, all of these are the possibilities that DB has to work with.
So, what do you do?
I don't think DB is "hung up" on the speed limiter issue at all...I think he just wants to be able to present managable, limited risks to the insurer, so that they will be willing to cover us.

Now...if anybody has a BETTER idea of how to limit the risks of turbines, everybody, DB included, will be happy to hear it.

Guys...while most turbine modellers are the safest and sanest modellers around, there is still a huge risk out there with these things. There have been some serious fires from these. Nobody has been hurt yet. We are just one crash away from somebody like the FAA coming in and saying "NO WAY." Look at high powered rocketry, and how a single sweep of the pen by Homeland Security hamstrung that hobby. There but for the grace of god go we, and the onus is on us to:
REGULATE OURSELVES BEFORE SOMEONE DOES IT FOR US.

Tilmanator

Feb 06, 2004, 03:28 PM

What changes happened to the high powered rocketry?

leccyflyer

Feb 06, 2004, 03:32 PM

I think this thread needs to move over to the AMA forum.

I also think that the rhetoric and tone of some posters needs to be dialled down here, lest it get too strident and the thread gets closed down.

Brian

easytiger

Feb 06, 2004, 04:10 PM

I've said my bit, others can continue if they like, I'll read it, but say no more, I've said enough...

member73

Feb 06, 2004, 04:17 PM

Tilmanator-
I don't have the specifics, but it was something like the Homeland Security act prohibits the transportation of explosives over XX grams by unlicensed operators. So the upshot is UPS and other delivery services can no longer transport rocket motors larger than E, I think. I may have a lot of the details wrong, but that should be close enough to get you started. There were a couple of threads on the ezone about it with links to details. I remember there was a last minute effort to get rocket engines exempt or maybe it was an ammendum, never heard what happened. So a search here and you should find out more.

OK looks like I got just about every detail wrong except for the fact that it involved Homeland Security and Rockets. Here's a much better link http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103110&highlight=homeland+rocketry

rclark

Feb 06, 2004, 04:47 PM

I guess I am dense (not surprising :) ) . What and where is the 'Pro Bro forum' in reference to the rule 9 discussion?

fwilly

Feb 06, 2004, 06:49 PM

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=164

planecrazy2

Feb 06, 2004, 06:59 PM

Hy guys just call them and thay will fax it over right then Da !!!

Karl B²

Feb 06, 2004, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by BillM
There are also discounts available for eyeglasses.
Tried to use this once, many years ago. There were only a few provider chains that could be used, and the closest one at the time was on the east coast. :rolleyes:

Has that situation changed?

Bud Morrison

Feb 07, 2004, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by easytiger
You know NOTHING of which you speak. Sorry to sound so harsh, but this is just totally false information.
They pay out a LOT of claims each year, ranging from stuff stolen out of people's cars to medical bills from people sticking their fingies into props, to a spectator getting hit by a plane and losing their eye, I mean...a LOT of claims. As a matter of fact, there are THREE full time people on staff just to deal with claims.
For MANY people, this is their primary insurance, as they do not have homeowners or renters insurance.

And another thing is this...they cover the SITE OWNER. Many clubs could not exist without that coverage. Your homeowners WILL NOT DO THIS.

Why should I as a home owner have to put in a claim on my home owners policy in the event of a modeling related issue. When someone with out home owners insurance can pay the same amount to AMA and use them as primary and their only modeling insurance? I have never liked this so called secondary clause.

easytiger

Feb 07, 2004, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Bud Morrison
Why should I as a home owner have to put in a claim on my home owners policy in the event of a modeling related issue. When someone with out home owners insurance can pay the same amount to AMA and use them as primary and their only modeling insurance? I have never liked this so called secondary clause.

A reasonable question. It's not quite "fair"(I never liked that term) that those without Homeowner's Insurance are getting more for their money than you are. It's a reasonable complaint.
But being secondary insurance makes AMA insurance much, much cheaper. That would be the only reason not to have AMA as primary insurance.
To make two difference prices would mean that AMA would have to have the administration in place to monitor YOUR homeowner's insurance at all times. If you did not pay your bill, you would have to be changed from one category to the other.
Here in NYS, the auto insurance companies are electronically tied in to the DMV...if you let your insurance lapse, they electronically notify the state, who will immediately revoke your plates. It's a very complicated thing involving barcodes and a large staff at each insurance company, and at the DMV, to monitor that coverage is in place at all times.

It would be mighty difficult to implement for AMA.

One of the reasons why you find that AMA is acceptable insurance to most clubs, towns, and homeowners, is that it is very simple to find out who is covered...they have a current card, they are covered until next year. Somebody shows you any OTHER type of insurance, you really do not know if it is valid. The card could say it expires next year, or whatever, but the coverage is not valid unless the bill is paid every month or every quarter.

Secondary insurance, again, is much cheaper than primary. For site owners, though, the insurance is primary. And for anyone who does NOT have homeowners, again...it is primary.

But, yup. If you have your own insurance, you are paying the same, and maybe getting a little less for it. Here's hoping you never NEED either insurance in your modelling activity!

leccyflyer

Feb 07, 2004, 05:35 PM

The secondary insurance thing is strange. Surely it's not a great selling point for an insurance policy to state that it'll only pay out if another policy (which you may or may not hold) has been exhausted.

I think what some of the poster might be getting at is the insurance should be the same for everyone and not depend on whether you are a homeowner or not.

That wouldn't involve any additional administration as far as I can see and the cost of insurance would be based on the risk involved in isolation, without having to factor in such imponderables as how many members have valid householder's insurance and how many don't. Unless AMA checks every member's name and whether they have household insurance or not I wonder how can they accurately assess the magnitude of the exposed risk of the entire policy base of the membership?

Over here I believe that the BMFA insurance is primary insurance, there is no question of your household insurance being involved in a modelling accident related claim raised when you sign up. The insurance cover is for £5,000,000 for third party liability (and a bunch of other stuff) and the cost is part of the annual membership fee, which is £23 for seniors and £13 for Juniors- as far as I'm aware the insurance cover is the same for both.

Brian

ctdahle

Feb 08, 2004, 12:49 AM

Brian...and anyone else interested...

I keep trying to avoid these threads because people who actually understand insurance already agree, understand, and know why at AMA coverage is and should be secondary. They also know why they are getting one heck of a bargain price. Further, they understand that most of the proposals to have graduated membership levels in the AMA depending on how and what different people fly would result in skyrocketing membership dues.

But gambling that I may help at least one more person come to enlightenment, and since we have Great Britain to blame for the invention of insurance in the first place :) .....

Neither AMA nor BMFA is an insurance company, they both obtain insurance from outside entities. The AMA buys an insurance policy from a private insurer that covers every member of the AMA.

BMFA similarly has a single policy that covers all of it's members. The BMFA policy is obtained through the UK Central Council of Physical Recreation. (You get a great deal, ask a member of the National Federation of Anglers or the English Women's Indoor Bowling Association if they are glad to be subsidizing insurance for model airplane flyers! On the otherhand, you are subsidizing the microlight flyers and the rugby clubs....)

Regardless, people need to understand that there are two factors at play both here and in the UK. 1) The need to assure landlords that people who use their lands are insured, and 2) The desire to keep the premium cost for that insurance as low as possible.

But sticking to the US, clubs require AMA membership because their landlords, be they the feds, states, local governments, third private party land owners, or the clubs themselves insist that flying activites be insured in order to protect their ownership interest. AMA membership is the single cheapest way to guarantee that the site owner is covered in the event that a flyer injures a person or causes property damage.

It is a simple "go/no-go" test, either you have an AMA card for the year or you don't. Club secretaries (remember, they are usually volunteers, working for free and usually losing flying time to do it) don't have to waste administrative effort on determining the existance of "other" coverage and passing assurances on to the landlord. They can just say, "nobody flies here unless they have a current card" and "hey mr. landlord, all of our members are AMA insured".

However, the fact that most American flyers do have a primary liability umbrella under their HO policy DOES keep the premium down for all of us. People with lots of assets, like big homes, tend to have larger liability umbrellas simply because they have bigger and more dangerous toys, including jet and giant scale models. They pay more in premiums to their primary insuror for their more dangerous toys and that is only fair.

Viper Pilot

Feb 08, 2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by rclark
. . . .What and where is the 'Pro Bro forum' . . . .

rclark,

These guys are NOT interested in the turbine/speed issue at all.

They are simply irritated by not being allowed to 'tail-touch" any more because of Rule #9.

If you read the thread provided, you'll see that there are a bunch of "rebels" on site that say they will do whatever they want.

What they don't realize is that they are a SIG and represent an extremely minute portion of the AMA membership. The rule has been changed for the safety of ALL the AMA members.

And . . . . when opposed to their opinion, they get REAL nasty, IMHO.

Viper

Viper Pilot

Feb 08, 2004, 10:20 AM

rclark,

BTW, the link that fwilly provided didn't really link to what he was talking about.

Link to Rule #9 thread on ProBro (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166045)

easytiger

Feb 08, 2004, 10:43 AM

"They will only hear us if we YELL REAL LOUD!!"-
From that "outlaw probro" thread.

That speaks VOLUMES about why they will get nowhere.
I thought the "Probro rule #1" was "no whining". Never SEEN such a bunch of Drama Queens..."We'll go OUTLAW!" Jeez.

Bud Morrison

Feb 08, 2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Viper Pilot
What they don't realize is that they are a SIG and represent an extremely minute portion of the AMA membership. The rule has been changed for the safety of ALL the AMA members.

And . . . . when opposed to their opinion, they get REAL nasty, IMHO.

Viper

Actually .The Profile Brotherhood (http://theprofilebrotherhood.com/) is a private club and has no association with the AMA and is not a SIG of the AMA.
Given a choice of going to an official AMA event or a ProBro event a ProBro fly would win out with me anyday. Darn fun bunch of guys.

easytiger

Feb 08, 2004, 12:14 PM

Well, that's all good. If they do not need anything from the AMA, then why all the whining about rule #9?
If they DO want AMA insurance, then they have to deal with the AMA.
LOOK...IF they can find a way to satisfy AMA's safety concern about tail touching...AMA IS ALL EARS. Whining on the internet about "going outlaw" AIN'T going to cut it. Let them organize and maybe even become a SIG and let their voice be heard.
If they don't need the AMA(maybe they don't) then what's the problem?

BY THE WAY...the new set of turbine rules were just passed, and they are great, and everybody is happy...so all of those who whined about how the AMA was ruining turbines, well...they can eat their words now.
All credit goes to both the EC and the people from JPO who worked so hard on this. Thanks, guys.

TailTwister

Feb 08, 2004, 03:30 PM

First off, The Profile Brotherhood is NOT an AMA SIG, official or otherwise. The Brotherhood is just a bunch of guys out to enjoy profile planes. We build, fly, and talk about profile planes. We have an outlaw image, and many "Bros" are just plain nuts, but we are a good group of guys. Membership is open to all who bring a positive influence to the group. Trolls and "haters" need not apply, but if you want to learn something, or just shoot the s__t about planes and flying, have a look. So, do you just believe what you are told about someone, or are you willing to take a peek?!?!? WWW.THEPROFILEBROTHERHOOD.COM

Next, if someone is looking for a SIG based on the enjoyment of 3D flight, look at www.international3D.org. We are a group, that is now gathering membership and will soon apply for SIG status with the AMA. That group is trying to do for 3D, what JPO is doing for Jet folks. If that makes you unhappy, please feel free to petition the AMA to revoke all SIG recognition.

So, to break it down easy like:
Pro Bros= some pilots out to have fun.
I3D= a SIG to work with the AMA regarding recent rule additions that we believe are unfair.

No Drama...

TailTwister

Feb 08, 2004, 03:32 PM

By the way, I'm proud Pro Bro #43, and a founding member of International3D!

easytiger

Feb 08, 2004, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by TailTwister
First off, The Profile Brotherhood is NOT an AMA SIG, official or otherwise. The Brotherhood is just a bunch of guys out to enjoy profile planes. We build, fly, and talk about profile planes. We have an outlaw image, and many "Bros" are just plain nuts, but we are a good group of guys. Membership is open to all who bring a positive influence to the group. Trolls and "haters" need not apply, but if you want to learn something, or just shoot the s__t about planes and flying, have a look. So, do you just believe what you are told about someone, or are you willing to take a peek?!?!? WWW.THEPROFILEBROTHERHOOD.COM

Next, if someone is looking for a SIG based on the enjoyment of 3D flight, look at www.international3D.org. We are a group, that is now gathering membership and will soon apply for SIG status with the AMA. That group is trying to do for 3D, what JPO is doing for Jet folks. If that makes you unhappy, please feel free to petition the AMA to revoke all SIG recognition.

So, to break it down easy like:
Pro Bros= some pilots out to have fun.
I3D= a SIG to work with the AMA regarding recent rule additions that we believe are unfair.

No Drama...

Me, personally...I don't LIKE profiles OR 3D, but I have to share the air with those guys, who says they like what I fly?
I have no problem with the Profile Brotherhood. Even though the type of models they fly are not my thing, I really DO like the idea of a grass roots kind of online kind of club for a special interest, especially if the members are as diehard and enthusiastic as those guys are.

All good. But I know what I read from some of the probro guys about rule #9. It was pretty preposterous. You don't need AMA? No problem. But you don't like the rules they make? Don't whine. Work through YOUR AMA and develop a better idea on how to make things both fun AND safe.
Sorry, but the online Anti-AMA stuff, it just gets really stupid sometimes.

TailTwister

Feb 08, 2004, 03:55 PM

I agree, that's why I have a membership with both groups.

The Bros are there to help me build and fly my profiles (and other planes too) better. I do not agree with some of the exploits, but that all happens hundreds of miles from me. I do function as the Safety Committee Chairman with my local club, and will enforce all AMA rules (if I agree with them or not) at my field.

I do not think that Rule #9 is good enough. It is silly to say that this tail touching is more or less dangerous than any other maneuver. I've seen snaps break planes in two, but no rule about snaps, right?

I also think that the "25 foot rule" needs to change, and be based on airplane weight, size, engine displacement, or something. Small electric indoor planes should not have to conform to the same rule as a giant scale plane. Control line planes have a "pull test" that is base on engine displacement. Bigger planes need to pass a harder pull. Why not something similar with the required distance ruling.

For the record, I'm 100% in favor of the "No touching" rule. I think that one needs to be set in stone.

Am I mean or nasty yet???

easytiger

Feb 08, 2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by TailTwister
I agree, that's why I have a membership with both groups.

The Bros are there to help me build and fly my profiles (and other planes too) better. I do not agree with some of the exploits, but that all happens hundreds of miles from me. I do function as the Safety Committee Chairman with my local club, and will enforce all AMA rules (if I agree with them or not) at my field.

I do not think that Rule #9 is good enough. It is silly to say that this tail touching is more or less dangerous than any other maneuver. I've seen snaps break planes in two, but no rule about snaps, right?

I also think that the "25 foot rule" needs to change, and be based on airplane weight, size, engine displacement, or something. Small electric indoor planes should not have to conform to the same rule as a giant scale plane. Control line planes have a "pull test" that is base on engine displacement. Bigger planes need to pass a harder pull. Why not something similar with the required distance ruling.

For the record, I'm 100% in favor of the "No touching" rule. I think that one needs to be set in stone.

Am I mean or nasty yet???

Am I?:)
Me, I am all FOR the no tail touching rule. I have SEEN a plane strip as servo getting banged down on the ground like that. But the actual reason, to me, is not totally about safety. It's about liability. What's it going to look like to a judge or jury when an accident happens and the pilot was deliberately banging the plane on the ground till it broke? It's going to be UGLY. To me, that's the real problem.
And to me, the soluation is SO simple. Just put a tailwheel on a wire sticking out the back of the plane and keep doing whatever it was you were doing. Beeg whoop.

I also think that if you are flying on your own private field, with your own insurance, you can just do whatever you want. Feel free to touch your tail, or tweek the needle valve while hovering in front of you, or tie a string and hook on and go carp fishing 3d, or fly a hundred pound turbine model at 300 mph...it's OKAY. It's COOL. You are not asking AMA to cover you, that's no problem. It's a free country. AMA is not the law.

The 25 foot rule, well, I don't know much about that. Educate me, I am all ears.

gordo-plast

Feb 08, 2004, 04:10 PM

LOL Easy T and Viper- what a combo!!!!!

easytiger

Feb 08, 2004, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by gordo-plast
LOL Easy T and Viper- what a combo!!!!!

I don't get it.:confused:

TailTwister

Feb 08, 2004, 05:58 PM

"25 foot rule"-
Part of the Code says no flying a powered plane within 25 feet of any other person. For a small plane 25 feet is a loooong way. In a gym or something, many planes and pilots will be closer than that. I think that a 15 ounce foamie is safe to have at a closer distance than a larger plane.

I believe that statistically, the most dangerous situation/person is a new pilot taking off and landing. The AMA empowers the local clubs and land owners to dictate who can and cannot fly. I'd suggest that local clubs also be empowered to dictate a flight line, pilot stations, and spectator areas with consciquence for a pilot's refusal to fly within those boundaries. Most club's bylaws have something like that anyway. Let the clubs handle it.

I think that if a club's majority says no tail touches, or even 3D of any kind, then let it stand. I do not see a need for the AMA to micro manage it's members this way.

Also, please note that at an AMA sanctioned field or event, the Code is law. Our club has a set of bylaws that provides a Grievance system for safety or non-flying infractions. We reserve the right to even remove the offender from the club, as it should be. The club should be governing these things, and not the AMA.

easytiger, my point is that Pro Bros can discuss without getting "nasty" as Viper has stated. No, I do not take your comments as "mean or nasty".

Viper is an "Anti-Bro" if there ever was one. I'd suggest that anyone that is inclined to believe his opinion of the Bros, have a look for themselves. That is what I meant when I said, "So, do you just believe what you are told about someone, or are you willing to take a peek?!?!? "

easytiger

Feb 08, 2004, 08:26 PM

"I believe that statistically, the most dangerous situation/person is a new pilot taking off and landing. "

Probably right. But we NEED those beginners more than ANYBODY else, and we were all beginners once.
It's also VERY hard to establish any statistics whatsoever when it comes to model airplane accidents. And we can thank god that there are NOT enough instances to develop a set of statistics!
When people argue that beginners have caused more accidents than turbines, or tail touching, or whatever, to me, it's just not a valid argument. There are just not enough incidents to say anything like that conclusively at all. ONE turbine related fatality, for example, and the turbine fatality factor just changed by 100%!

"The AMA empowers the local clubs and land owners to dictate who can and cannot fly. I'd suggest that local clubs also be empowered to dictate a flight line, pilot stations, and spectator areas with consciquence for a pilot's refusal to fly within those boundaries. Most club's bylaws have something like that anyway. Let the clubs handle it."

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I am pretty sure that the AMA "rules" for how to lay out a flying field are not "rules" at all, but just guidelines. Anybody know differently?

The tail touching thing, again, I beleive AMA's concern is not so much the actual danger of tail touching, but the legal implications if somebody DID end up in court from an injury or death from this: "Your honor, he bounced the tail of the model on the ground until the controls broke, then the plane went out of control and hit my client in the face. He was aware of the risks of damaging the machine, he knew that accidents had been caused like this before..."
It would mean we would probably be hung out to dry. Think it though for a while.

Again, you can loophole your way out of it by sticking a tailwheel onto the back of plane, who's going to say anything?

"Also, please note that at an AMA sanctioned field or event, the Code is law. Our club has a set of bylaws that provides a Grievance system for safety or non-flying infractions. We reserve the right to even remove the offender from the club, as it should be. The club should be governing these things, and not the AMA."

Yes and no. If the owner of the field okays either alternative insurance or nothing at all, then others can fly there without AMA anything, and they are not restricted by the AMA Safety Code. I know there are some examples of that on public land, you do not have to be an AMA member to fly there.

As far as EVENTS go, if you want the sanction, the insurance cover for millions of dollars for $60 or so, then YES, you are obliged to follow the safety code. There ARE non-sanctioned events that are mighty cool, I am pretty sure the QSAA Vegas thing is not, they are flying enormous stuff out in the desert, twin pulsejets and all that, cool stuff, I beleive they have their own insurance.

The mandatory bylaws is a recent thing, and it was brought about by a few nasty incidents where clubs and the ama got sued. Not good stuff. The lawyers determined that it was VITAL to have a set of bylaws for legal reasons. Nobody WANTED it, it was just one of those things that had to happen.

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 10:08 AM

Probably right. But we NEED those beginners more than ANYBODY else, and we were all beginners once.
It's also VERY hard to establish any statistics whatsoever when it comes to model airplane accidents. And we can thank god that there are NOT enough instances to develop a set of statistics!
When people argue that beginners have caused more accidents than turbines, or tail touching, or whatever, to me, it's just not a valid argument. There are just not enough incidents to say anything like that conclusively at all. ONE turbine related fatality, for example, and the turbine fatality factor just changed by 100%!

Who cares what is more dangerous (we are well past that argument, I thought), my point is that the AMA empoweres clubs to be sure that this is done in a safe manner. We govern the most dangerous circumstance, but not all of these little ones? As for statistics, I guarantee that the AMA has to provide something to these insurance companies for them to establish some level of risk. The statistics are there, even if 100% of all incidents are not reported, there are some numbers somewhere. "We would like some insurance, sir. Trust us, it's safe enough." NOT!

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I am pretty sure that the AMA "rules" for how to lay out a flying field are not "rules" at all, but just guidelines. Anybody know differently?

Call the AMA, and tell them you are the Club Safefty Officer and you are going to change the lay out of a sanctioned field. See what happens. We did this, and they showed us the hoops to jump through. After all, if they say it's not safe, they can always refuse to re-issue a charter. It's best to go with what they say.

The tail touching thing, again, I beleive AMA's concern is not so much the actual danger of tail touching, but the legal implications if somebody DID end up in court from an injury or death from this: "Your honor, he bounced the tail of the model on the ground until the controls broke, then the plane went out of control and hit my client in the face. He was aware of the risks of damaging the machine, he knew that accidents had been caused like this before..."
It would mean we would probably be hung out to dry. Think it though for a while.

Enough hypothetical "Perry Mason" trials. "Your honor, this guy was playing with his toy airplane, and flew dangerously close to the ground. Then he crashed it into the ground within feet of me, and splinters got in my eye, and now I'm blind, and I can't watch my kids grow up, and I'll never see my beautiful wife's face again..." "Sir, did you see the big red sign saying 'Active Runway, Enter At Your Own Risk?'" "No, I can't read..." Enough make-believe OK? We are liable for all accidents, to some degree, if the lawyer pushes hard enough.

My favorite loophole is, "Touch and go! Doink!" Call a touch and go, then do a tail touch. That makes it part of "landing".

Yes and no. If the owner of the field okays either alternative insurance or nothing at all, then others can fly there without AMA anything, and they are not restricted by the AMA Safety Code. I know there are some examples of that on public land, you do not have to be an AMA member to fly there.

Our land owner checks for club cards (it's a home brew picture ID with our club logo) if they do not recognize the pilot. No pilots from outside of the club are allowed unless accompanied by a member in good standing. As for non-AMA fields, none of this matters. Open land has no rules, except for what the pilots present agree upon, and the Police determine to be bad. Non-sanctioned events are the same, unless they are held on an AMA field.

I like our bylaws. We now have the power to remove anyone that simply refuses to follow the club rules and the AMA code. It also set up some "non-flying offenses" that can bring about the same end. Many spoke against the bylaws, but they are for the good of the AMA and our club. As long as they are not abused, I'll say keep'em.

My stance is simple. The AMA is Micro-managing the Membership through some of these new rules. They are poorly worded, too general, and single out small groups unfairly. Set up the field as the AMA says it should be, set up a set of bylaws (like the AMA says), and follow the rules as previously stated. Then leave it alone. The clubs should decide these things, not the AMA. If a club is anti 3D, so be it. If a club is anti-turbine, so be it. If a club is anti-heli, fine. If a club is anti-anything but flying around in circles. great, but the AMA should not pass rules for all to follow, just because they can.

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 10:13 AM

But they did!!!

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 10:34 AM

Yes Viper, they did pass the rule. As always, we can count on you to chime in with the most accurate and up to date observations...

What you may not know-
The rule has already been brought back the EC for reconsideration (by AMA officers and other influential folks), and the AMA is now considering using some kind set-backs for 3D flight, instead of just making rules to eliminate it. The set-backs could be a re-wording of the 25 foot rule to allow larger planes to 3D (including tail touching) at some distance, and smaller planes to 3D somewhatly closer. The distances are now being tossed around.

We are working within the system to create a solution that will benifit 3D pilots and keep the AMA out of hot water with their insurance company.

Won't you just hate it when we are successful?

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by TailTwister
We are working within the system to create a solution that will benifit 3D pilots and keep the AMA out of hot water with their insurance company.

And that is the way it should be done, not the whining and claims of ignoring the rules. That was my objection to your posts.

Originally posted by TailTwister
Won't you just hate it when we are successful?

No, my friend, I wouldn't hate it. Actually, I don't care one whit about tail-touching or 3D flying. The rule doesn't affect me. I said in an earlier post "good luck with your endeavors, etc" but you seem to ignore those comments, apparently.

You need to "lose the chip" for a bit, huh?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Viper Pilot

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Viper Pilot
. . . . . I DO believe that the rule is appropriate. You guys are just a bit paranoid.

Good luck in your attemps at changing/revoking the rule. . . . . .

Viper

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 01:23 PM

No chip here, I just do not agree with folks who stir a pot which they have no interest in. Just as you see no need to tail touch, I see no need to go 250 mph with a model plane. The difference is that I'm not posting in opposition to it in the Jet forum. For a person who doesn't care about tail touching, you sure post a lot about it.

Don't stir just for the sake of stirring... It's not polite.;)

The AMA is under pressure from a few SIGs to do a better job of protecting their interests. You read the prior edition of Model Aviation where DB was asking the Membership for inut "How much is too much?", I think he asked, right? That tells me one of two things, #1 is that he may be beginning to listen, #2 he is stalling. One or the other will soon be proven to be true.

Next, the EC agreed to hear commentary regarding the Rule #9 issue and is considering a re-write based on information shared in that discussion. Sounds like my #1 may have been right.

I entered this thread to respond to some commentary ("Drama Queens") about the Pro Bros. Many of the Bros are truly rebels, and all are passionate about flying. Some even said something about an AMA card burning. I'd bet some of the more extreme guys may have even done it. But, even with the diversity of 600 international members in play, we all get along, and help each other whenever we can. We are not a group of Profile Packin' Thugs that some folks make us out to be. That is what I'm in here for.

My thoughts on the rule #9 issue are well documented, and someone is listening (to more than just me), as progress is being made towards a mutually benificial solution. I believe that as indicated by easytiger's comments regarding JPO and the turbine rule changes, it is possible that 3D rules will become more acceptable very soon. I guess I believe that the AMA saw a situation in the making (liability or safety) that needed to be addressed. Maybe they simply "had to do something". Now they are getting some input from the field on how members are wanting to deal with that possible situation, and perhaps they will make the changes we are asking for.

Anyway, let's not drag the Pro Bros through the mud, just because they are extremist.

If someone truly wants 3D out of their life, then elect a "Pivot Man" as your club President, and let the "Circle" be formed...:cool:

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by TailTwister
. . . . . For a person who doesn't care about tail touching, you sure post a lot about it. . . .

I'm a member of an AMA Charter Club. Rule # 9 is in effect, and members breaking any AMA rule is endangering that charter. If allowed to continue THIS RULE BREAKING, the total membership is jeopardized. This would not be fair and equitable.

Originally posted by TailTwister
. . . . . .Don't stir just for the sake of stirring... It's not polite.;) . . .

That's simply your implication (and your "chip"is showing again) of my comments. Impolite?? Not so, just disgusted with the "rebel" attitudes. Remember, you can still do whatever you want, but you have no right to interfere with others' enjoyment of the sport.
Don't do it at an AMA Chartered Club.

Originally posted by TailTwister
. . . . . If someone truly wants 3D out of their life, then elect a "Pivot Man" as your club President, and let the "Circle" be formed...:cool:

"Pivot Man" . . . . please explain. I have no idea what that comment means.

Once again . . . .

Originally posted by Viper Pilot
. . . . You guys are a bit paranoid. . .

Viper

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 02:22 PM

I'm a member of a chartered club too. I do enforce the AMA Code as the Chairman of our Safety Committee. Didn't I make that clear?

I do not want to jeapordize anyone's charter, and have stated that I consider the Code to be Law at an AMA field. If pilots where you are are not following the Code, then don't give us a hard time way over here. My local club has a strong set of bylaws, and we enforce it. I3D has issued a Mission Statement and set of bylaws that require not only rules to be followed, but consideration of others be remembered.

As for "do whatever you want", that's not going to happen. I fly with consideration for not only the code, but for other pilots at the field and my neighbors. I do not always "do what I want", and do not believe that I should. Just because someone isn't watching, doesn't make the rule invalid, right? I am here to enjoy this hobby, just as much as the next pilot, and also share the hobby through flight instruction (for the club and at local events like Scouting or CAP gatherings) and also teach small group sessions at club meetings. I believe that the new Anti-3D rules are curbing some peoples enjoyment, without cause, and that's why I'm opposed to Rule #9. Remember opposition does not equal infraction.

Paranoid seems to indicate that I feel like something horrible is going to happen. Reality is quite the opposite. I believe that something very good is about to happen. I believe that the AMA is going to weigh the opinions at hand, and change the Rule #9 to be more equitable.

Also, rebel attitudes are fine, but rebelious actions are not. To my knowledge, there has not been a tail touch at my field since the Rule #9 was made public. If one does happen, I'm sure someone will file a grievance. We are not willing to risk our charter either.

Again, you are making us out to be something we are not. There is no band of Pro Bros traveling the country trying to get AMA pilots to do tail touches at their AMA fields. There is no Pro Bro, I3D, or Save 3D headed Anti-AMA campaign to lure away it's members. However, none of us are going to stand by, and pretend like we are happy with the ruling just to keep someone else happy. We have our integrity. We say what we mean, and mean what we say.

If that makes us "rebels", then so be it. "Rebels" started 3D, and perhaps a few "rebels" can save it. By the way, Pro Bros prefer the word "outlaw" to "rebel". We don't want to offend our Northern Bros...

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Jim Poor
Doesn't the rule say "intentional" ??? So you're out hovering, gat a little low and
.....oops, my rudder touched ;)

Originally posted by wgeffon
The fix for me and rule 9 is to say "oops, I didnt mean to do that" everytime the tail
touches... . .

Just like those “Wingwalker” guys. He walks around, not looking at where he’s going.

He steps on your wing and . . . “Oops . . . . that wasn’t intentional . . . . purely an
accident.”

Five minutes later he steps on the fuse and . . . “Oops . . . . that wasn’t intentional.”

How long would you buy that?? Just saying “oops” doesn’t cut it, IMHO.

Just ONE example of your logic and rebellion.

BTW, I have no idea if Jim Poor or wgeffon are ProBro’s. I’m not implying that. I’m simply addressing their comments on this subject.

Viper

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 03:41 PM

I'm quite sure that one of them is...

Well, my "Touch and go! Doink!" should be just fine then, right?

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by TailTwister
I'm quite sure that one of them is...

Well, my "Touch and go! Doink!" should be just fine then, right?

I do "touch-and-goes" all the time, and use my landing gear during those AND during landing.

As long as you "land" using that "doink" tailwheel every time.

I see no problem until you try to actually land using the landing gear.

Viper

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 03:52 PM

The rule says, at the end, "excpet while landing". That means when executing a "landing", the rest of the rule is moot. So, by calling a touch and go, you have called a landing immediately followed by a take off. The "Doink!" is no longer controlled by the rule. You can "Doink!" your tail wheel or the rudder.

It's within the rule, and not an "oops".

Touch and Go! Doink!

Most times, I land on the gear. I generally crash once or twice per year, and when I smuck one, it's hard to tell what hit first... But I have never crashed following a tail touch. I crashed twice this season, and both were elevator stalls. Wait a minute, let's just put a ban on elevators. That will fix everything!

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 03:54 PM

Again,

Do whatever you want, but DON'T DO IT AT OUR FIELD.

Simple, huh??

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 03:57 PM

OK, I'll never Doink at your field, and don't even do it (recently) here either.

Like I said, we are working within the system.

You feel that?

It's the wind of change, and it's blowing on Rule #9...

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 04:33 PM

Is the field in Flint?

LancelowDowell

Feb 09, 2004, 05:03 PM

Well, since there's all this talk about I3D, and I'm I3D member #1, I might as well throw in my couple pennies.

If you didn't bother to check out the I3D page, the first thing that you will see is our mission statement.

International 3D's Mission Statement

The purpose of International 3D, I3D, is to serve as a representative and collective voice for pilots who enjoy the flying discipline known as 3D flight.

I3D will encourage all to foster knowledge, understanding, and appreciation of 3D flight.

I3D will provide all members with positive representation to all formal organizations and the general public.

I3D intends to foster a fellowship between its members, other pilots and to the modeling community.

I3D will provide a "3D Pilot's Code of Ethics" to create awareness, on the part of a 3D pilot, regarding the rights of other pilots. It is also the intention of I3D to use the "3D Pilot's Code of Ethics" as a tool to increase awareness regarding the possible dangers associated with model aircraft flight of all kinds.

I3D has also setup a group of guildelines for it's members...

1. I will always fly my aircraft safely.
2. I will always do a Pre-Flight inspection before each flight.
3. I will always check my battery voltage in the aircraft and transmitter before each flight
4. I will not fly 3D maneuvers while Student Pilot's are flying.
5. I will only fly 3D maneuvers with an aircraft properly equipped for 3D maneuvers.
6. I will communicate with other pilot's to ensure I do not interfere with their aircraft.
7. The aircraft's location and altitude will be based on my skill level.
8. I will always be an ambassador to others, so everyone can.
9. I will encourage other 3D flyers to uphold the 3D Code of Etiquette in their flying.
10. I will abide by all AMA Safety Code Regulations.

I don't believe that 3d flight is considered the "outlaw" group out there. I've seen many other people that don't fly 3d break more regulations the 3d fliers. As for the Brotherhood, I'm probro #404 as well. They are a good bunch of people, who's first care is to have fun. An example that alot of other flyers should follow. Just remember, not all Bro's are ama members, so not all fo them are bound by ama regulations.

- Dave Hurt
Webmaster, I3D

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by TailTwister
Is the field in Flint?

No, it is not in Flint!!

VP

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by LancelowDowell
. . .
I3D has also setup a group of guildelines for it's members...

1. I will always fly my aircraft safely.
2. I will always do a Pre-Flight inspection before each flight.
3. I will always check my battery voltage in the aircraft and transmitter before each flight
4. I will not fly 3D maneuvers while Student Pilot's are flying.
5. I will only fly 3D maneuvers with an aircraft properly equipped for 3D maneuvers.
6. I will communicate with other pilot's to ensure I do not interfere with their aircraft.
7. The aircraft's location and altitude will be based on my skill level.
8. I will always be an ambassador to others, so everyone can.
9. I will encourage other 3D flyers to uphold the 3D Code of Etiquette in their flying.
10. I will abide by all AMA Safety Code Regulations. . . .

Fine guidelines. I have no problems with them.

I also have no problem with I3D. All SIGs should be represented in our hobby/sport.

As far as 3D flight "outlaw" . . . I never , ever made such a statement. I was referring to certain ProBros who seem to be proud to be "outside of the law".

And, as Tail Twisted said :

Originally posted by TailTwister
By the way, Pro Bros prefer the word "outlaw" to "rebel".

Viper Pilot

Feb 09, 2004, 05:48 PM

Done!!!!

Said all that can be said . . . . and it seems to be quite a waste of time.

VP

citabriapro

Feb 09, 2004, 07:34 PM

Viper,

Where exactly is you're field, so I can be sure not to even consider attending one of your events.

J_R

Feb 09, 2004, 07:57 PM

During last weekend's EC meeting, a motion was made and seconded to remove the wording in rule #9 about landing grear. During discussion, it became apparent that the EC wanted to do something about the rule. The subject was sent to committee, with several thoughts, including a setback distance. The motion was then tabled.

TailTwister

Feb 09, 2004, 11:30 PM

How far from Flint?

Bud Morrison

Feb 09, 2004, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by J_R
During last weekend's EC meeting, a motion was made and seconded to remove the wording in rule #9 about landing grear. During discussion, it became apparent that the EC wanted to do something about the rule. The subject was sent to committee, with several thoughts, including a setback distance. The motion was then tabled.

Thanks JR. Please keep us informed as to any future changes and or discussion by the EC.

easytiger

Feb 10, 2004, 08:39 AM

Tailtwister and citabria, you guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I mean, you put a link right here in the thread to the probro forum, did you think nobody would bother to read?

Six degrees of seperation between people, they say, in this case it was only two or three clicks.

While HERE, you are pretending to have some sort of serious discussion, while over there, you are taking about "opening up a can of whup-ass on them" and "I shut Viper DOWN!"
It's really kind of pathetic.
If you want to be taken seriously, you can't be talking that kind of stuff behind everybody's back. It shows a certain mentality. It's also just bad manners.

This reeks of trolling and online arguing, like it does not really matter WHAT the argument is about, it's just about winning.

TailTwister

Feb 10, 2004, 09:35 AM

Like I said, I'm here because someone took a shot at the Bros. Is it fair to tag us as "Drama Queens", when most people recognize about 4 Bros out of the 600. Yes, The Profile Brotherhood is a passionate group, and as I indicated, some are just plain nuts. But let's be fair.

As for what goes on in the Pro Bro forums, please note that the "Rules of Engagement" are a little different there. Being that it is intended to be used only by the Bros, there are very few rules about what can and cannot be said. That's one benifit of having a Private Membership Club, right?

For the record, I was not the Bro with the "whup-ass" comment. If that Bro wants to speak up, he will. I did make the second "shut down" comment, but I do not recall using all caps or an exclamation point. That was added by "easytiger" as yet another attempt to exeserbate the emotional level of this discussion.

As far as what the argument is about, I 100% challenge you to find a thread, not about Rule #9, where I get argumentative with Viper or anyone. I also challenge you to post your findings, so that folks can see the truth.

Well, which side of my mouth am I talking out of now?

Billy Haynes

Feb 10, 2004, 09:57 AM

http://www.theprofilebrotherhood.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=142&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
to someone who doesn't know much about the Pro Bro's (like ME) this sure does apear to be abunch of "drama". That discussion doesn't do very much to lift up your groups "public" appearance. I enjoy 3D, although not very good at it. I also can enjoy a day of flying circles with my....dare I say IT..... CUB!
LancelowDowell, I wonder just how many follow these "rules"? I'm sure 100% of the members...........right?
1. I will always fly my aircraft safely.
2. I will always do a Pre-Flight inspection before each flight.
3. I will always check my battery voltage in the aircraft and transmitter before each flight
7. The aircraft's location and altitude will be based on my skill level.
8. I will always be an ambassador to others, so everyone can.
10. I will abide by all AMA Safety Code Regulations.
Particularly like #8.....
You guy's (pro bro thread) are as bad as someone purly scale bashing 3D flyers...... it's really sad..
Note I'm not bashing the PB's, just my (small/narrow) observation of a group that I know little about.

TailTwister

Feb 10, 2004, 10:00 AM

Billy, thanks for posting that. Everybody go read that thread. Please note how the thread starts about being angry, then we end up talking about our kids.

Billy, thanks again!

easytiger

Feb 10, 2004, 10:01 AM

I know when I am being trolled. I'm not biting today, sorry. Like I said before, I have nothing against the ProBros, I don't care what they do. I am DEFINITELY not getting into some useless "who WINS the thread thing", and that SURE is how you come across. I'm just not playing today, sorry.

Anyway, back to topic.
I thought Dave Brown was VERY clear about the rationale for Rule #9. If you want to change it, find somethign that adresses the concerns and let your voice be heard. Don't just onlinewhine about it.

The new turbine regs are very revealing. Seems like "enemy" AMA in Muncie was on our side after all. I don't see ANY of the bigmouth jet jocks (worse than any bigmouth Probro, anyday!) apologizing or anything for some of the nasty, nasty things that were said about AMA and DB and the EC.
Take anything you read about that kind of thing online with a big, big grain of salt, as at least half of it is bull.